![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by JohnL on October 1, 1999, at 17:04:23
In reply to SAMe, posted by Kathy on October 1, 1999, at 14:04:14
Hi Kathy. Due to its expense, I keep going on it and then off again on about a biweekly rotation. 1200mg a day total (bid). I keep thinking it's my imagination, but each time I return to it I feel much better. Not cured, but much better.
I see several potential benefits of SAMe: 1)Hasten recovery while waiting for an AD to take effect, for me as early as day three, 2)possibly allowing a lower dose of the AD, 3)providing an extra boost when the AD seems to be lagging. Could be an almost ideal augmentation. I say almost because its high cost is not ideal.
I know of no contraindications. The package insert says to use caution in bipolar patients due to potential manic reactions. I think that warning applies to just about anything though, not just SAMe. I know of one person who takes 1600mg a day along with 40mg Prozac, a couple others at 400mg a day with 40mg Prozac. They are very pleased and see the high expense as a worthwhile investment in their mental health. Also mixed with TCAs, Serzone, Wellbutrin, etc. The only one I'm not sure of is MAOIs. Seems to be well tolerated and benign with most ADs.
I believe it works, based on my own experience. But that high cost is a real roadblock. At $1.00 a pill (200mg) it can add up to a couple hundred dollars a month on the high end. In a way, it could be viewed that the patient can purchase his/her freedom from troublesome side-effects by using SAMe. Personally I like it in combination with an AD, but I don't know how well it would work as monotherapy. Its therapeutic benefits, high safety, and low/nonexistent side effects must be weighed against the high dollar expense. All things considered, I would definitely educate patients about SAMe so they will have an alternative choice available in treating depression, with or without an AD.
Posted by saint james on October 1, 1999, at 17:55:32
In reply to SAMe, posted by Kathy on October 1, 1999, at 14:04:14
> Based on several recent newspaper articles, and ongoing
> patient demand for "natural" treatments for depression,
> I have recently been telling selected patients about
> s-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), with some surprisingly
> encouraging preliminary results.
> Has anyone else had much experience with this
> supplement? The dose used varies from 200mg od to tid.
> Is there any known contraindication to its use?
> Are there any potentially harmful interactions with
> other drugs (especially other antidepressants)?
> Thanks
> KathyJames here....
The problem here is that depression is not caused by a lack of nutrents taken into the body. Nor is it cause by a "lack" of neurotransmitters, though it is common to think of it this way. There is also a feedback loop which sloffs off excess l-trip or any percursor taken in, past a point. Even mc Donalds food has lots of L-trip, so as long as you eat regulary you get the percursors to make neuro transmitters.
I'm not saying don't supplement, it is a good idea
to make sure you get everything you need to live, but don't expect these kind of supplements to have big AD effects. It just does not work that way.james
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by dj on October 1, 1999, at 20:00:48
In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by saint james on October 1, 1999, at 17:55:32
SJ,
I believe you made the exact same statement in another post someplace here. On what do you base your convictions/conclusion?
> James here....
>
> The problem here is that depression is not caused by a lack of nutrents taken into the body. Nor is it cause by a "lack" of neurotransmitters, though it is common to think of it this way. There is also a feedback loop which sloffs off excess l-trip or any percursor taken in, past a point. Even mc Donalds food has lots of L-trip, so as long as you eat regulary you get the percursors to make neuro transmitters.
>
> I'm not saying don't supplement, it is a good idea
> to make sure you get everything you need to live, but don't expect these kind of supplements to have big AD effects. It just does not work that way.
>
> james
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by tgregory on October 1, 1999, at 21:01:14
In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by saint james on October 1, 1999, at 17:55:32
> > Based on several recent newspaper articles, and ongoing
> > patient demand for "natural" treatments for depression,
> > I have recently been telling selected patients about
> > s-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), with some surprisingly
> > encouraging preliminary results.> James here....
>
> The problem here is that depression is not caused by a lack of nutrents taken into the body. Nor is it cause by a "lack" of neurotransmitters, though it is common to think of it this way. There is also a feedback loop which sloffs off excess l-trip or any percursor taken in, past a point. Even mc Donalds food has lots of L-trip, so as long as you eat regulary you get the percursors to make neuro transmitters.
>
> I'm not saying don't supplement, it is a good idea
> to make sure you get everything you need to live, but don't expect these kind of supplements to have big AD effects. It just does not work that way.
>
> james
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------There is plenty of scientific evidence. Anecdotal evidence too. Suggesting a big AD effect can be expected from SAMe supplements. There may be a feedback limiting resistance, or a point of diminished returns. But that level--if there is one-- is much higher than the doses needed to treat depression. Feedback is irrelevant in a discussion of SAMe.
SAMe is not a precursor. Unlike precursors, it is not available in food. The body has to make it. It is a catalyst. Among hundreds of other things it encourages dendrite growth, it allows receptors to be more elastic, it tunes-up the entire infrustructure of the brain. It facilitates electrical activity. It lubricates. It activates. It steps up the energy level of just about every chemical reaction at a molecular level. It basically lends a helping hand to everything going on in the brain. Supplemented doses of SAMe can and do have an AD effect. Perhaps a depressed person doesn't have a deficiency of SAMe. Perhaps they do. But a raised level improves the performance of the brain in hundreds of ways. Depression relief is achievable way before a point of dimishing returns. It's too bad SAMe isn't found in McDonalds food, because it would be a whole lot cheaper. :-)
Posted by Tom on October 2, 1999, at 22:01:29
In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by tgregory on October 1, 1999, at 21:01:14
DJ,
Let me start with this. SAMe is the best oral (don't want to say medicinal) therapy for treating my depression that I've ever taken. In my estimation I've taken about 10 different ADs with no success to speak of. On SAMe I also experience no side effects at all. I would put my depressive symptoms remission at about 40-50%. In my book this counts as a successful treatment.The problem here is the cost/benefit issue. I'm up to (5) 200mgs a day at .75 per pill. I presume I need the full 8 pills a day to get the relief I really want. This would cost upwards of $200 per month. So much for my $8 prescription plan... What I've been trying to do is find a way to get (make it?) SAMe cheaper. I've read quite a bit about SAMe, and come to learn that it is essentially an amino acid. I called Mothernature and spoke to one of their representatives and what I was told wasn't entirely helpful. SAMe is made up of the amino acid L-Methionine and another product called ATP. The representative couldn't help any more than that.
So off to the web I went. I went to a few Methionine sites; one site (www.painstresscenter.com/methionine.html) touted the amino as mood lifter. Here's my question...can SAMe be manufactured cheaper by ourselves? The amino Methionine is fairly cheap to buy. Its the other mystery product I couldn't figure out.
Since you have a pretty good grasp of this subject I wonder if you had anything to add? I would love to make a SAMe on my own, if its possible. I'm also unsure if I can just add the amino Methionine to my SAMe brand for augmentation. I'll talk to my doc about this, but I suspect a nutritionist would know better.
One other thing. Check out this site also. The SAMe is so cheap its almost too good to be true (60 pills for $20); but I'm unsure of the maker of the SAMe. I've tried to call phone number given (on a Saturday) and got no answer. I'll try on Monday and talk to these folks and see if they're for real.
By the way, loved your post...some people think the "natural" route was cooked up by scientology. Not true. Some people have no choice. Regular ADs to me are like jumping into a toxic waste dump...Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is plenty of scientific evidence. Anecdotal evidence too. Suggesting a big AD effect can be expected from SAMe supplements. There may be a feedback limiting resistance, or a point of diminished returns. But that level--if there is one-- is much higher than the doses needed to treat depression. Feedback is irrelevant in a discussion of SAMe.
>
> SAMe is not a precursor. Unlike precursors, it is not available in food. The body has to make it. It is a catalyst. Among hundreds of other things it encourages dendrite growth, it allows receptors to be more elastic, it tunes-up the entire infrustructure of the brain. It facilitates electrical activity. It lubricates. It activates. It steps up the energy level of just about every chemical reaction at a molecular level. It basically lends a helping hand to everything going on in the brain. Supplemented doses of SAMe can and do have an AD effect. Perhaps a depressed person doesn't have a deficiency of SAMe. Perhaps they do. But a raised level improves the performance of the brain in hundreds of ways. Depression relief is achievable way before a point of dimishing returns. It's too bad SAMe isn't found in McDonalds food, because it would be a whole lot cheaper. :-)
Posted by Tom on October 2, 1999, at 22:10:37
In reply to Re: SAMe - To DJ or whomever, posted by Tom on October 2, 1999, at 22:01:29
To TGreg,
Sorry, though DJ wrote that post about SAMe. I guess you are the expert I was addressing my questions to.
Posted by dj on October 2, 1999, at 22:36:18
In reply to Re: SAMe - To DJ or whomever, posted by Tom on October 2, 1999, at 22:01:29
Tom,
Your correction is right, others have much more insight into these issues than I. Hoiwever there is a long thread on SAMe at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19990829/.
including my post on Re: TMG as a SAMe substitute stimulant?? & 5HTP -- the bit on TMG in that post may be of interest as it is precursor for SAMe, which may or maynot have AD effects...Sante!
DJ
> So off to the web I went. I went to a few Methionine sites; one site (www.painstresscenter.com/methionine.html) touted the amino as mood lifter. Here's my question...can SAMe be manufactured cheaper by ourselves? The amino Methionine is fairly cheap to buy. Its the other mystery product I couldn't figure out.
>
Posted by Tom on October 2, 1999, at 23:11:52
In reply to Re: SAMe - To DJ or whomever, posted by dj on October 2, 1999, at 22:36:18
> Tom,
>
> Your correction is right, others have much more insight into these issues than I. Hoiwever there is a long thread on SAMe at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19990829/.
> including my post on Re: TMG as a SAMe substitute stimulant?? & 5HTP -- the bit on TMG in that post may be of interest as it is precursor for SAMe, which may or maynot have AD effects...
>
> Sante!
>
> DJ,Thank you very much for your prompt response. You would also qualify as an expert in my book! I'm going to look into TMG. SAMe definitely has a positive effect on me; here's hoping that TMG finishes the job!
Tom
>
>
Posted by JohnL on October 3, 1999, at 6:04:49
In reply to Re: SAMe - To DJ or whomever, posted by Tom on October 2, 1999, at 22:01:29
60 pills for $20??? That does sound too good to be true. I suspect perhaps the pills may not be enteric coated, which means they are basically worthless because they are destroyed in the stomach acids. SAMe has to get into the intestines with no interference from food or stomach acid. That's why they must be enteric coated. That process is expensive. If they are enteric coated and $20/60 pills, that's incredible and I would be very interested to check it out further.
Posted by chy on October 3, 1999, at 13:46:20
In reply to Re: SAMe - $20 for 60?, posted by JohnL on October 3, 1999, at 6:04:49
I'm a sport's nutritionist -- does that count?
Three things can directly boost ATP production. ATP by the way is just the energy source within individual cells.
Low dose creatine converts to ATP. Loading and high dose creatine converts to glyconol. 750mg morning and afternoon are the standard recommendations to boost an atheletes available ATP. An additional boost within minutes of completing strenuos excercise is usually advised.
L_Glutamine is essential to ATP production. Your L-Glut levels determine how much ATP you can make. 5 to 8 grams are the standard recommendation (again for atheletes). It's good to know that 10-20grams a day are regularly given to pre-mature babies to boost their immune system as L-Glut is also directly involved in white cell production. L-Glut is essentially a sugar so diabetics and hypoglycemics should be careful with it. Everyone should stagger the dose through the day.
Pyruvate boost ATP production. It is a stabil form of pyruvic acid. PA uses ATP in the cell and breaks down into lactic acid. The more pyruvic acid you have at the start of excercise the less lactic acid at the end. Pyruvate is more expensive than SAMe.
TwinLabs has a product called ATP Fuel. Don't bother with it.
L-Glutamine is used by the chinese as an anti-depressant. I'd start there.
Let me know if you need more (or less information)
chy
Posted by Tom on October 5, 1999, at 15:14:27
In reply to Re: SAMe - $20 for 60?, posted by JohnL on October 3, 1999, at 6:04:49
> 60 pills for $20??? That does sound too good to be true. I suspect perhaps the pills may not be enteric coated, which means they are basically worthless because they are destroyed in the stomach acids. SAMe has to get into the intestines with no interference from food or stomach acid. That's why they must be enteric coated. That process is expensive. If they are enteric coated and $20/60 pills, that's incredible and I would be very interested to check it out further.
John,
Well... I bit the bullet an ordered from the company online. The SAMe is enteric coated, but is made by Nature RX, which is not the same company as NatureMade, who makes the SAMe through the newer, more popular method. This is an excerpt I read through another web site about SAMe quality and the methods which SAMe is made.
Pharmaceutical-grade SAMe comes in two forms, one called tosylate and a
newer, more stable form called butanedisulfonate. Only Nature Made and GNC sell the new
butanedisulfonate version, but several U.S. retailers import reliable tosylate products.I'm not sure which version I purchses, but I took a shot. The website is www.realhealth.com. Shipping is $6 minimum, so I bought two 60 count bottles (for a total of $46). Here's hoping I get "good" SAMe.
One other thing...the price jumps to $30 per 60 on Oct 16th; the current price is just a promotional period price til then.
Posted by saint james on October 5, 1999, at 23:09:51
In reply to Re: SAMe -- James there, that would be saint..., posted by dj on October 1, 1999, at 20:00:48
> SJ,
>
> I believe you made the exact same statement in another post someplace here. On what do you base your convictions/conclusion?
>
James here...I made this issue confused by mixing SAMe and precusors in the same post, SAMe dose not fall into the percursor/feedback issue. Let me sort this out...
Taking in additional precursors ( generally the 8 essencial aminos, L-trip is one) to make more brain chems, dosn't work because of the feed back loop and becuase depression is not caused by a lack of chems, but what the body does with those chems. It is by down regulation and slowing reuptake of NT's that AD's work.
I tried SAMe many years ago ( I have had considerable experience with "smart drugs")
and found it to make some difference. However depression, if not treated completely, is a chronic, progressive process, that always gets worse, happens more often, and becomes more resistant. Being 40-50% better is not enough, you need to be completly well, or the depression will return and get worse. Traditional AD's treat my depression completely.... i am happy 360 days a year since 1985. From my reading and experience with SAMe, percursors, and others I find them to not be robust AD's and are better adjuncts to AD's. Depression is big business, and I fear people will take these OTC products will limp along "less than well" and be happy with that, not realizing the long term issues of undertreating depression. A doctor needs to be the one deciding, with the patient, if any treatment is working, and if complete remission has happened. Herbs and others are great for little problems, but I am not in favor of treating depression w/o a doctors consult.
Posted by dj on October 5, 1999, at 23:46:37
In reply to Re: SAMe -- James there, that would be saint..., posted by saint james on October 5, 1999, at 23:09:51
So are you saying then that you have been on ADs since 1985 and will continue, or do you anticipate discontinuing them at sometime or...???
>However depression, if not treated completely, is a chronic, progressive process, that always gets worse, happens more often, and becomes more resistant. Being 40-50% better is not enough, you need to be completly well, or the depression will return and get worse. Traditional AD's treat my depression completely.... i am happy 360 days a year since 1985.
Posted by saint james on October 6, 1999, at 0:23:09
In reply to Re: SAMe -- James there, that would be saint..., posted by dj on October 5, 1999, at 23:46:37
> So are you saying then that you have been on ADs since 1985 and will continue, or do you anticipate discontinuing them at sometime or...???
>
james here....My depression is here for life, and given what I
know about depression (cronic, gets worse if not treated) it seems foolish to stop. I do have breakthru depressions every 5 yrs or so, which are fixed with dose or med changes. And since I take non-formalary meds, my HMO, from time to time, takes its time approving them so I go a month w/o AD's. The depression always returns w/i a week, I can hold it together for a month, then I stop leaving the house, washing, changing clothes, ect. next time the HMO does this medication dance with me I am just going the check myself into the nut house, so instead of paying for my meds they can pay several thousand dollars for the admit to the nut house instead of a few 100 $ for the meds I have taken for many years and work so well.I degress and bitch, sorry ! Generally when one first starts an AD the idea is find a med that works, then max the dose (limited by side effects)to see how well they do, ie get them really well. Then lower the dose to whatever keeps them well. Keep then well for 6-12 months with no breakthru depression, and then see if you can taper the dose down and take them off. Many will have depression return w/i 6 months. These people need to stay on AD's, either for life or a long period with rechecks.
j
Posted by Kathy on October 8, 1999, at 16:48:03
In reply to Re: SAMe -- James there, that would be saint..., posted by saint james on October 6, 1999, at 0:23:09
Thanks for all the interesting/informative
comments! I am considering using SAMe as an adjunct
to ADs to boost their effectiveness, but not knowing
much about its metabolism, half-life, mode of action,
and interactions with other drugs, makes nervous
about recommending it: eg. combining L-tryptophan
with an MAOI can potentially cause a life-threatening
"serotonin syndrome". Any info on this type of
problem with SAMe?
Thanks again.
Kathy
Posted by JohnL on October 8, 1999, at 18:06:54
In reply to Re: SAMe -- James there, that would be saint..., posted by Kathy on October 8, 1999, at 16:48:03
> Thanks for all the interesting/informative
> comments! I am considering using SAMe as an adjunct
> to ADs to boost their effectiveness, but not knowing
> much about its metabolism, half-life, mode of action,
> and interactions with other drugs, makes nervous
> about recommending it: eg. combining L-tryptophan
> with an MAOI can potentially cause a life-threatening
> "serotonin syndrome". Any info on this type of
> problem with SAMe?
> Thanks again.
Don't know about mode of action or half-life. That's kind of like asking about the mode of action and half life of, say, a vitamin. SAMe's action spans a wide array of bodily functions such as liver, joints, and brain. It's difficult to compare it to L-tryp, 5HTP, or any prescrip. Like apples and oranges. It's not a drug or a precursor.Serotonin syndrome is a definite possibility with an AD and L-tryp because of the serotonin-specific action. SAMe is not serotonin specific though. It wouldn't surprise me to find out it has nothing to do with serotonin at all. Its therapeutic benefits likely come from other functions as I understand it.
In any case, from what I've read and from my own experience, SAMe is safe with ADs. It is always wise though to start low and feel it out before moving up. Hard to predict adverse responses from one person to the next. I have talked with someone else on 400mg SAMe with 40mg Prozac and she loves it. I've done 1200mg with 20mg Prozac. No prob. An excerpt of a book I browsed through at a bookstore said it might not replace a prescrip AD, but would probably allow a lower dosage of it. My own opinion is that of all the things out there that could be dangerous, SAMe is near the bottom of that list.
Posted by chy on October 8, 1999, at 23:00:54
In reply to Re: SAMe , posted by JohnL on October 8, 1999, at 18:06:54
>
>
> SAMe is not serotonin specific though. It wouldn't surprise me to find out it has nothing to do with serotonin at all.
Ummmm,,, I disagree.SAMe does boost serotonin levels, this is one of its known effects.
If you cannot take Prozac you can't take SAMe.
Trust me,,,, ;>
chy
Posted by Ron on October 9, 1999, at 7:06:43
In reply to Re: SAMe , posted by chy on October 8, 1999, at 23:00:54
> > Does anyone find SAMe to increase anxiety or cause innsomnia???? Let me know
>
> >
> > SAMe is not serotonin specific though. It wouldn't surprise me to find out it has nothing to do with serotonin at all.
>
>
> Ummmm,,, I disagree.
>
> SAMe does boost serotonin levels, this is one of its known effects.
>
> If you cannot take Prozac you can't take SAMe.
>
> Trust me,,,, ;>
>
> chy
Posted by Tom on October 9, 1999, at 21:46:06
In reply to Re: SAMe , posted by chy on October 8, 1999, at 23:00:54
> >
>
> >
> > SAMe is not serotonin specific though. It wouldn't surprise me to find out it has nothing to do with serotonin at all.
>
>
> Ummmm,,, I disagree.
>
> SAMe does boost serotonin levels, this is one of its known effects.
>
> If you cannot take Prozac you can't take SAMe.
>
> Trust me,,,, ;>
>
> chy
Chy,
I read your earlier post on ATP, and you seem to be knowledgable about nutritional products (sports nutritionist, right?). I'll cut to the chase. Prozac made me psychotic. The anxiety was running out of my ears it activated me so much. With SAMe, I have no side effects at all (none!). My only problem is that it is only partially effective. My symptoms have only been reduced about 50%. Also, I'm ramping up the SAMe with some cheaper priced stuff I bought online the other day. It has all the same ingredients as my Nature Made brand, and is enteric coated. By the way...if you think I had a specific adverse reaction to Prozac, guess again. Every AD I ever tried made me nervous beyond belief (sometimes at low levels). I've basically given up on ADs in general. SAMe is the only thing that remotely helps. I'm up to 7 pills per day, and its been two months. My guess is has no direct action on serotonin like most ADs.I would recommend it to anyone who isn't bipolar or taking an MAOI. I would greatly recommend it to someone mildly or moderately depressed as a front line AD. My symptoms are classified as serious and SAMe has taken a bite out them. You've got nothing to lose (except alot of $dough).
Tom
Posted by MB on May 30, 2000, at 23:17:13
In reply to Re: SAMe -- James there, that would be saint..., posted by saint james on October 5, 1999, at 23:09:51
Although the phenomenon of being happy all of the time is not unattractive, I have to wonder if it isn't pathalogical to some degree. Unrealistically and childishly, I'm waiting for the drug that can make the depressive person "normal". The prospect of feeling anything "all of the time" frightens me. I don't want a pharmaceutical blanket of affectual stasis! As emotional beings, don't we deserve the ability to draw appropriatly from a full spectrum of emotions?
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 1, 2000, at 14:20:25
In reply to Re: SAMe - $20 for 60? - To JOhnL, posted by Tom on October 5, 1999, at 15:14:27
I wonder what the verdict was? Was it any good? I noticed today that there is a site that offers 3 free bottles of 60 if you order 9. That would bring the price down to $20 per 60/200mg. One could take 1200 mg for about $2 per day. Thats fairly liveable.>
John,
>
> Well... I bit the bullet an ordered from the company online. The SAMe is enteric coated, but is made by Nature RX, which is not the same company as NatureMade, who makes the SAMe through the newer, more popular method. This is an excerpt I read through another web site about SAMe quality and the methods which SAMe is made.
>
> Pharmaceutical-grade SAMe comes in two forms, one called tosylate and a
> newer, more stable form called butanedisulfonate. Only Nature Made and GNC sell the new
> butanedisulfonate version, but several U.S. retailers import reliable tosylate products.
>
>
Posted by JohnL on June 2, 2000, at 3:16:54
In reply to Re: SAMe - $20 for 60? - To JOhnL, posted by Johnturner77 on June 1, 2000, at 14:20:25
> John,
> >
> > Well... I bit the bullet an ordered from the company online. The SAMe is enteric coated, but is made by Nature RX, which is not the same company as NatureMade, who makes the SAMe through the newer, more popular method. This is an excerpt I read through another web site about SAMe quality and the methods which SAMe is made.
> >
> > Pharmaceutical-grade SAMe comes in two forms, one called tosylate and a
> > newer, more stable form called butanedisulfonate. Only Nature Made and GNC sell the new
> > butanedisulfonate version, but several U.S. retailers import reliable tosylate products.
I've never seen such a low price. Sure looks attractive though.I don't have any good reason to, but I would be skeptical of the quality or efficacy of the product at such a low price. I think I might first try a box or two of the cheaper stuff before committing to a larger purchase. Or maybe even buy some of NatureMade brand and some of the cheaper brand and compare them in back-to-back one week trials to see if their is any hint of a difference between them.
JohnL
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 2, 2000, at 9:01:01
In reply to Re: SAMe - $20 for 60? - To JOhnL, posted by JohnL on June 2, 2000, at 3:16:54
Are you the JohnL that posted back in Oct 99 about cycling on an off SAM-e to cut the expense? YOu made the comment that each time it seemed to work better when you started up again. Are you still cycling like that? If not, how much longer did you cycle? Did it eventually stop improving?
Most AD's don't function as well when a person goes back on them. Is SAM-e an exception or is it JohnL? :>) I read somewhere that SAM-e was supposed to enhance dendritic growth, perhaps it improves brain adaptation. If so, it might actually be much closer to a cure for depression than anything else on the market. Perhaps it will eventually be used as an augmentation with all AD's. The drug companies wouldn't be to happy about a real cure would they!
At any rate I am very curious and intrigued by the idea of cycling this stuff. Perhaps you stumbled onto something....
>
>> John,
> > >
> > > Well... I bit the bullet an ordered from the company online. The SAMe is enteric coated, but is made by Nature RX, which is not the same company as NatureMade, who makes the SAMe through the newer, more popular method. This is an excerpt I read through another web site about SAMe quality and the methods which SAMe is made.
> > >
> > > Pharmaceutical-grade SAMe comes in two forms, one called tosylate and a
> > > newer, more stable form called butanedisulfonate. Only Nature Made and GNC sell the new
> > > butanedisulfonate version, but several U.S. retailers import reliable tosylate products.
>
>
> I've never seen such a low price. Sure looks attractive though.
>
> I don't have any good reason to, but I would be skeptical of the quality or efficacy of the product at such a low price. I think I might first try a box or two of the cheaper stuff before committing to a larger purchase. Or maybe even buy some of NatureMade brand and some of the cheaper brand and compare them in back-to-back one week trials to see if their is any hint of a difference between them.
> JohnL
Posted by Steve Ashton on October 10, 2000, at 11:12:49
In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by saint james on October 1, 1999, at 17:55:32
> > Based on several recent newspaper articles, and ongoing
> > patient demand for "natural" treatments for depression,
> > I have recently been telling selected patients about
> > s-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), with some surprisingly
> > encouraging preliminary results.
> > Has anyone else had much experience with this
> > supplement? The dose used varies from 200mg od to tid.
> > Is there any known contraindication to its use?
> > Are there any potentially harmful interactions with
> > other drugs (especially other antidepressants)?
> > Thanks
> > Kathy
>
> James here....
>
> The problem here is that depression is not caused by a lack of nutrents taken into the body. Nor is it cause by a "lack" of neurotransmitters, though it is common to think of it this way. There is also a feedback loop which sloffs off excess l-trip or any percursor taken in, past a point. Even mc Donalds food has lots of L-trip, so as long as you eat regulary you get the percursors to make neuro transmitters.
>
> I'm not saying don't supplement, it is a good idea
> to make sure you get everything you need to live, but don't expect these kind of supplements to have big AD effects. It just does not work that way.
>
> james
>
>
> james, sorry, i have to disagree. I have done extensive research when I was trying to find out what was wrong with me. I was being treated for bi-polar disorder for months, when it turns out that i am uni polar with ADHD!....It is absolutely due to the low levels of serotonin, caused by a lack of enzymes used to break down foods into neurotransmitters. The underlying cause is my inability to reach Delta 4 level sleep, which is when the body produces these neurotransmitters. I am not a doctor, but have been misdiagnosed so many times, that I had to do the research myself. SAMe does in fact boost serotonin levels and I take it in combination with effexor, and felt almost immediate results! I am convinced that low levels of neurotransmitters is the underlying cause of many health problems. Most doctors wont tell you about the supplements because they gain no benefit from it! They tend to go with the fashionable treatments, and because of the benefits they receive from drug manufacturers! The best thing anyone can do is take health matters into their own hands and research!...Work with your Doctor to come up with a plan together, because you know your body better than anyone! If SAMe is too expensive you may want to try 5-HTP, as it boosts serotonin levels as well. Anyone who thinks poor health is NOT linked to nutritional and chemical imbalances obviously needs to do some research, or just use common sense!
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Bill L on October 11, 2000, at 7:15:03
In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by Steve Ashton on October 10, 2000, at 11:12:49
I take SAM-e along with 10 mg of Celexa. I take 300 mg of SAM-e (one and one half tablets of Nature's Rx available mail order). The SAM-e helps a lot. It gives me energy and a feeling of well being. It alone does not help with anxiety. I take a multi vit/min which is similar to "Centrum A to Zinc" each day. That helps a lot with physical anxiety (feeling jittery). The Celexa helps with depression and mental anxiety (worrying). So all 3 medications have an important role.
> > > Based on several recent newspaper articles, and ongoing
> > > patient demand for "natural" treatments for depression,
> > > I have recently been telling selected patients about
> > > s-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), with some surprisingly
> > > encouraging preliminary results.
> > > Has anyone else had much experience with this
> > > supplement? The dose used varies from 200mg od to tid.
> > > Is there any known contraindication to its use?
> > > Are there any potentially harmful interactions with
> > > other drugs (especially other antidepressants)?
> > > Thanks
> > > Kathy
> >
> > James here....
> >
> > The problem here is that depression is not caused by a lack of nutrents taken into the body. Nor is it cause by a "lack" of neurotransmitters, though it is common to think of it this way. There is also a feedback loop which sloffs off excess l-trip or any percursor taken in, past a point. Even mc Donalds food has lots of L-trip, so as long as you eat regulary you get the percursors to make neuro transmitters.
> >
> > I'm not saying don't supplement, it is a good idea
> > to make sure you get everything you need to live, but don't expect these kind of supplements to have big AD effects. It just does not work that way.
> >
> > james
> >
> >
> > james, sorry, i have to disagree. I have done extensive research when I was trying to find out what was wrong with me. I was being treated for bi-polar disorder for months, when it turns out that i am uni polar with ADHD!....It is absolutely due to the low levels of serotonin, caused by a lack of enzymes used to break down foods into neurotransmitters. The underlying cause is my inability to reach Delta 4 level sleep, which is when the body produces these neurotransmitters. I am not a doctor, but have been misdiagnosed so many times, that I had to do the research myself. SAMe does in fact boost serotonin levels and I take it in combination with effexor, and felt almost immediate results! I am convinced that low levels of neurotransmitters is the underlying cause of many health problems. Most doctors wont tell you about the supplements because they gain no benefit from it! They tend to go with the fashionable treatments, and because of the benefits they receive from drug manufacturers! The best thing anyone can do is take health matters into their own hands and research!...Work with your Doctor to come up with a plan together, because you know your body better than anyone! If SAMe is too expensive you may want to try 5-HTP, as it boosts serotonin levels as well. Anyone who thinks poor health is NOT linked to nutritional and chemical imbalances obviously needs to do some research, or just use common sense!
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the end of the thread.
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