Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 940243

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Lou's reply-scidy Sigismund

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 6:43:06

In reply to Re: Lou's reply-phoudtnovjudsm Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 16:04:00

> Do you think science then is sorcery, Lou?
>
> Why didn't I think of that?

Sigismund,
You wrote,[...science..is sorcery,...?...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If this is in reklation to the topic of this thread, if you could post answers to the following, thwn I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What branch of science could be included in what you are wanting to mean?
B. If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable, would the science that you are wanting to mean here be related to this forum?
C. If so, how?
D. other questions if the above are answered
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply-scidy Lou Pilder

Posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 7:13:55

In reply to Lou's reply-scidy Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 6:43:06

> If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable, would the science that you are wanting to mean here be related to this forum?

In the above question, you provide a definition of the word "sorcery". Which of the drugs used in the healing art of psychiatry do you feel qualify as agents of sorcery when used in the manner prescribed for treating mental illness?


- Scott

 

Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? SLS

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 9:25:23

In reply to Re: Lou's reply-scidy Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 7:13:55

> > If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable, would the science that you are wanting to mean here be related to this forum?
>
> In the above question, you provide a definition of the word "sorcery". Which of the drugs used in the healing art of psychiatry do you feel qualify as agents of sorcery when used in the manner prescribed for treating mental illness?
>
>
> - Scott

Scott,
You wrote,[...drugs used..agents of sorcery...].
Thousands of years ago there were those that used plants to alter the mind of others. There were also insects, spiders, and later chemicals as by-products from chemical dyes and metalurgy and rat and worm and insect poisons.
The uses of the drugs, the agents of the sorcerer, were to make the subject confused and have distorted judgment and have them loose their humananity. The drugs had the potential to induce the subject taking the drug into an artificial psychosis, subhuman, sexless, and demished intellegence. They could also be addicted to the sorcerer's chemicals and had to come back for more, and pay. They sometimes were given drugs that caused hallucinations. The sorcerer could give them a drug to try to turn them into murderers. Hashish was one of those and we get our word {assassin} from those that were given hashish.
The drugs were given by torturers to attempt to extract infomation from the subjct given the drug.
Some of these drugs came from mushrooms and cactus plants and the coaco bush and hemp . Urea and an ester from apples made up the barbituates and some ergots were hallucinogenic.
Now the sorcerer did not have the knowlege of how nerve agents or neuro-toxins or neuroleptics work as we know today. Today, chemists can synthesize compounds that have psychoactive effects.
But I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
B. If so, how could you determine the person's intent?
C. other questions if the above are answerd.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? Lou Pilder

Posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 10:08:46

In reply to Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 9:25:23

> Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?

I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."

How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?


- Scott

 

Re: Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? Lou Pilder

Posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 13:25:25

In reply to Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 9:25:23

> > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
>
> I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
>
> How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?

Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.

I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.


- Scott

 

Lou's reply-howlhedudat SLS

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 14:48:18

In reply to Re: Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 13:25:25

> > > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
> >
> > I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
> >
> > How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
>
> Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
>
> I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
>
>
> - Scott

Scott,
You wrote,[...I don't think the bible prohibits...].
I am unsure as to why you think that as to what you base your thiunking on. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Do you base the above on that you have read and understand the entire bible?
B. Do you base the above on only the discussion we are having here?
C. Do you base the above on what someone else has told you?
D. Do you base the above on something else?
Lou

 

Lou's request to members-ydeydu

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 16:48:50

In reply to Lou's reply-howlhedudat SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 14:48:18

> > > > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
> > >
> > > I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
> > >
> > > How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
> >
> > Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
> >
> > I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott,
> You wrote,[...I don't think the bible prohibits...].
> I am unsure as to why you think that as to what you base your thiunking on. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Do you base the above on that you have read and understand the entire bible?
> B. Do you base the above on only the discussion we are having here?
> C. Do you base the above on what someone else has told you?
> D. Do you base the above on something else?
> Lou

Friends,
If you are considering posting here or in parallel threads, I ask that you consider what is in this post.
The aspect of controlling by the use of drugs has many ways that that could be done.
One way of controlling is to addict the subject given the drug. They then become controlled to come back to get more, for a price. This is an ancient way of controlling someone.
Here is a link to a post by a member here that says why they take the drug.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100406/msgs/942451.html

 

Lou's request to members-duyunoe?

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 20:57:29

In reply to Lou's request to members-ydeydu, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 16:48:50

> > > > > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
> > > >
> > > > I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
> > > >
> > > > How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
> > >
> > > Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
> > >
> > > I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > Scott,
> > You wrote,[...I don't think the bible prohibits...].
> > I am unsure as to why you think that as to what you base your thiunking on. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> > A. Do you base the above on that you have read and understand the entire bible?
> > B. Do you base the above on only the discussion we are having here?
> > C. Do you base the above on what someone else has told you?
> > D. Do you base the above on something else?
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering posting here or in parallel threads, I ask that you consider what is in this post.
> The aspect of controlling by the use of drugs has many ways that that could be done.
> One way of controlling is to addict the subject given the drug. They then become controlled to come back to get more, for a price. This is an ancient way of controlling someone.
> Here is a link to a post by a member here that says why they take the drug.
> Lou
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100406/msgs/942451.html

Friends,
I would like for you to see this video if you are considring being a discussant in this thread.
I ask:
Do you know what it means for a drug to be mind-altering?
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni0lK4Na6VY

 

Re: Lou's request to members-duyunoe?

Posted by Laney on April 8, 2010, at 10:15:30

In reply to Lou's request to members-duyunoe?, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 20:57:29

Hi Lou,

I'm on medication - yes mind altering I would somewhat agree. My story is that I was put on paxil for what was probably anxiety. I had head pressure. Pure and simple. I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time but the doctor said that it helps with a wide range of symptoms and because I trusted him (he was a christian by the way) I took it and yes, the head pressure went away. I never felt that it altered my mind while on it. I felt exactly the same as I always felt. At points along the way I wanted to get off of it because I didn't want to have to take a pill forever. It was only when I tried to go off of it that it showed me how attached it was to me. That made me all the more want to get off of it. So all of the attempts that I've made have screwed up things in my brain (in my opinion) if anything. But again, I didn't feel any different on it at all. I can't say it made me feel normal because I felt exactly like myself. Do I reget going on it. You bet. Why? Because trying to get off of it has been hellish to say the least. Again, I think my brain got screwed up with the stress of the tapers maybe. Who knows?

Anyway, here I am. I'm a christian and yes I Love Jesus and right now because I'm messed up from these drugs and haven't gotten back on track yet, my "relationship" to God has suffered immensely. I feel like I have a disconnect. Is it my fault? Partly but definitely not all of it. But there are us spiritual folks out there that have taken these kinds of meds for all kinds of reasons and this is just my little story. Would I take meds for situational depression? Probably not. I have been there and have gotten through that type of depression prior to meds. Yes and relationship with God helped immensely. It was and still is all the difference in the world to me. But once the brain is altered or affected or whatever what are we to do? I have prayed hundreds of times over this and I am where I am. It's not God's fault that I'm experiencing this but yes, He could make me well but has chosen not to for His good reasons at this time. I'm doing the best I can and He knows it. But if Psych drugs can save lives from suicide and the like, they should be used. They are used too much for sure. The mass or the people should be reached prior to going on drugs. Maybe they'd think twice and try a different route. But think about it. We're being innundated with commercials for these drugs that make it seem like if you feel bad at all, take this or that. I mean these are on all the time. It can get to anyone, even spiritual people. We're just human.

Anyway, enough of my ranting for now. I've got to go get ready for work.

God bless you all.

Alayna

 

Lou's reply-crwnovlif Laney

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2010, at 14:26:16

In reply to Re: Lou's request to members-duyunoe?, posted by Laney on April 8, 2010, at 10:15:30

> Hi Lou,
>
> I'm on medication - yes mind altering I would somewhat agree. My story is that I was put on paxil for what was probably anxiety. I had head pressure. Pure and simple. I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time but the doctor said that it helps with a wide range of symptoms and because I trusted him (he was a christian by the way) I took it and yes, the head pressure went away. I never felt that it altered my mind while on it. I felt exactly the same as I always felt. At points along the way I wanted to get off of it because I didn't want to have to take a pill forever. It was only when I tried to go off of it that it showed me how attached it was to me. That made me all the more want to get off of it. So all of the attempts that I've made have screwed up things in my brain (in my opinion) if anything. But again, I didn't feel any different on it at all. I can't say it made me feel normal because I felt exactly like myself. Do I reget going on it. You bet. Why? Because trying to get off of it has been hellish to say the least. Again, I think my brain got screwed up with the stress of the tapers maybe. Who knows?
>
> Anyway, here I am. I'm a christian and yes I Love Jesus and right now because I'm messed up from these drugs and haven't gotten back on track yet, my "relationship" to God has suffered immensely. I feel like I have a disconnect. Is it my fault? Partly but definitely not all of it. But there are us spiritual folks out there that have taken these kinds of meds for all kinds of reasons and this is just my little story. Would I take meds for situational depression? Probably not. I have been there and have gotten through that type of depression prior to meds. Yes and relationship with God helped immensely. It was and still is all the difference in the world to me. But once the brain is altered or affected or whatever what are we to do? I have prayed hundreds of times over this and I am where I am. It's not God's fault that I'm experiencing this but yes, He could make me well but has chosen not to for His good reasons at this time. I'm doing the best I can and He knows it. But if Psych drugs can save lives from suicide and the like, they should be used. They are used too much for sure. The mass or the people should be reached prior to going on drugs. Maybe they'd think twice and try a different route. But think about it. We're being innundated with commercials for these drugs that make it seem like if you feel bad at all, take this or that. I mean these are on all the time. It can get to anyone, even spiritual people. We're just human.
>
> Anyway, enough of my ranting for now. I've got to go get ready for work.
>
> God bless you all.
>
> Alayna

Alayna,
You wrote,[...I am on mind-altering medication...head pressure..took it and it went away..screwed up things in my brain...regret going on it...trying to get off it is hellish...I'm messed up from these drugs...(separated) from God...relationship with God (helps)..still is all the difference in the world...once the brain is alterd..what are we to do?...we are being innundated with commercials...can (influence) anyone...].
You are another that has told me what makes me believe that they are standing at the edge of the Great Gulf, separated from their God and wanting to overcome the addiction. The questions here in this thread are as to if taking mind-altering drugs classifies one or not as a sorcerer according to the bible discussed here.
That bible says that the sorcerers will be in the Lake of Fire. And that bible also says that there is a Great Deception. That bible says that all the nations are decieved by the great economic companies and their sorceries. This can be found in Rev 18:23
You see, that bible says that he that overcomes will not be hurt of the second death, the Lake of Fire, and will not have their name blotted out of the Book of Life and will be given to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the paradisse of God. And there will be great tribulation, but he that overcomes and is faithful until death will be given a Crown of Life.
Lou

 

Lou's reply-ovrcm

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 9, 2010, at 7:34:57

In reply to Lou's reply-crwnovlif Laney, posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2010, at 14:26:16

> > Hi Lou,
> >
> > I'm on medication - yes mind altering I would somewhat agree. My story is that I was put on paxil for what was probably anxiety. I had head pressure. Pure and simple. I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time but the doctor said that it helps with a wide range of symptoms and because I trusted him (he was a christian by the way) I took it and yes, the head pressure went away. I never felt that it altered my mind while on it. I felt exactly the same as I always felt. At points along the way I wanted to get off of it because I didn't want to have to take a pill forever. It was only when I tried to go off of it that it showed me how attached it was to me. That made me all the more want to get off of it. So all of the attempts that I've made have screwed up things in my brain (in my opinion) if anything. But again, I didn't feel any different on it at all. I can't say it made me feel normal because I felt exactly like myself. Do I reget going on it. You bet. Why? Because trying to get off of it has been hellish to say the least. Again, I think my brain got screwed up with the stress of the tapers maybe. Who knows?
> >
> > Anyway, here I am. I'm a christian and yes I Love Jesus and right now because I'm messed up from these drugs and haven't gotten back on track yet, my "relationship" to God has suffered immensely. I feel like I have a disconnect. Is it my fault? Partly but definitely not all of it. But there are us spiritual folks out there that have taken these kinds of meds for all kinds of reasons and this is just my little story. Would I take meds for situational depression? Probably not. I have been there and have gotten through that type of depression prior to meds. Yes and relationship with God helped immensely. It was and still is all the difference in the world to me. But once the brain is altered or affected or whatever what are we to do? I have prayed hundreds of times over this and I am where I am. It's not God's fault that I'm experiencing this but yes, He could make me well but has chosen not to for His good reasons at this time. I'm doing the best I can and He knows it. But if Psych drugs can save lives from suicide and the like, they should be used. They are used too much for sure. The mass or the people should be reached prior to going on drugs. Maybe they'd think twice and try a different route. But think about it. We're being innundated with commercials for these drugs that make it seem like if you feel bad at all, take this or that. I mean these are on all the time. It can get to anyone, even spiritual people. We're just human.
> >
> > Anyway, enough of my ranting for now. I've got to go get ready for work.
> >
> > God bless you all.
> >
> > Alayna
>
> Alayna,
> You wrote,[...I am on mind-altering medication...head pressure..took it and it went away..screwed up things in my brain...regret going on it...trying to get off it is hellish...I'm messed up from these drugs...(separated) from God...relationship with God (helps)..still is all the difference in the world...once the brain is alterd..what are we to do?...we are being innundated with commercials...can (influence) anyone...].
> You are another that has told me what makes me believe that they are standing at the edge of the Great Gulf, separated from their God and wanting to overcome the addiction. The questions here in this thread are as to if taking mind-altering drugs classifies one or not as a sorcerer according to the bible discussed here.
> That bible says that the sorcerers will be in the Lake of Fire. And that bible also says that there is a Great Deception. That bible says that all the nations are decieved by the great economic companies and their sorceries. This can be found in Rev 18:23
> You see, that bible says that he that overcomes will not be hurt of the second death, the Lake of Fire, and will not have their name blotted out of the Book of Life and will be given to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the paradisse of God. And there will be great tribulation, but he that overcomes and is faithful until death will be given a Crown of Life.
> Lou
>
Alayna,
You wrote,[...I'm a Christion...what are we to do?...].
There is a way for Christians to overcome. I am not a member of Christiandom, but I have a perspective from Judaism that I have been able to share with Christians in order to help them overcome addiction. I have posted here that there is much more to this topic here.
The Christian bible writes about sorcery which is from a Greek word,{pharmakapeia} which is generally understood to be drugs. The question in the bible is who is a sorcerer and what are the criteria used to determine that, for they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The ancient Greek language and the historical record in the bible says that the sorcerer uses mind-altering drugs to kill or control someone. The drugs were generally neuro-toxins from plants in ancient times. Then there iss the aspect that the sorcerer uses deceit to market the drugs, which is the plain use of {deception}.
Now deception started in the Garden of Eden where the serpent deceived Adam and Eve. The serpent said, [...yea has God said?...]. The serpent planted doubt in the mind about the God of Adam and Eve. So another way to decern a sorcerer is that the sorcerer will plant doubt in the mind's of believers, including Christians, about what they think their God says about mind-altering drugs.
So you wrote,[...what are we to do?...].
Those standing at the edge of the Great Gulf are seeking the Kingdom of God on the other side. One one side that they are standing is death and on the other side is life and peace.
And as I stood at the Great Gulf there was a Rider on a White Horse. And He said to me, "I beseech you that you present your body a living sacifice to God. And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind to know what is the will of God. Abhor that which is evil; cleve to that which is good. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply-ovrcm Lou Pilder

Posted by SLS on April 9, 2010, at 12:45:34

In reply to Lou's reply-ovrcm, posted by Lou Pilder on April 9, 2010, at 7:34:57

> I am not a member of Christiandom, but I have a perspective from Judaism that I have been able to share with Christian

From what consensus in Judaism do you draw a perspective that you would call Jewish?


- Scott

 

Lou's reply-resur SLS

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 9, 2010, at 21:00:12

In reply to Re: Lou's reply-ovrcm Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 9, 2010, at 12:45:34

> > I am not a member of Christiandom, but I have a perspective from Judaism that I have been able to share with Christian
>
> From what consensus in Judaism do you draw a perspective that you would call Jewish?
>
>
> - Scott

Scott,
You wrote,[...what consensus in Judaism...?...].
There are many. One aspect of Judiasm is a verse in the book called Danial. In the 12th chapter, the 2end verse. That verse talks about people being resurrected from the grave.
That verse can cause those that believe that that bible is the Word of God to live with the expectation of another life that is affected by what they do in this life.
I have talked about the Lake of Fire. And the Kingdom of God. Some believers might benefit from knowing how this does or does not effect their eternal fate in relation to taking psychotropic drugs or in helping those that want to renew their minds. So myslf and Christians have a common understanding of that there is a resurrestion of the dead, for in their scriptures, they speak of at least two resurrections of the dead, them being separated by 1000 years. The verse for that is in the book called Revelation, chapter 20 verse 6.
There is mmuch more to this...
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply-resur Lou Pilder

Posted by SLS on April 9, 2010, at 23:12:49

In reply to Lou's reply-resur SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 9, 2010, at 21:00:12

I ask again: From what consensus in Judaism do you draw a perspective that you would call Jewish?

Your perspective is your own, and I don't feel it is valid for you to assume a posture that you should represent anyone else but yourself.


- Scott

 

Re: please be civil Lou Pilder

Posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 2010, at 1:14:48

In reply to Lou's reply-crwnovlif Laney, posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2010, at 14:26:16

> The questions here in this thread are as to if taking mind-altering drugs classifies one or not as a sorcerer according to the bible discussed here.
> That bible says that the sorcerers will be in the Lake of Fire.

Please don't post anything that could lead others (including those who take drugs) to feel accused or put down.

But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.

More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.

Thanks,

Bob

 

Redirect: administrative issues

Posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 2010, at 8:06:36

In reply to Re: please be civil Lou Pilder, posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 2010, at 1:14:48

> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.

Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/943057.html

Bob

 

Re: Lou's reply-crwnovlif

Posted by Laney on April 26, 2010, at 13:34:25

In reply to Lou's reply-crwnovlif Laney, posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2010, at 14:26:16

Lou,

I appreciate your wanting to help people see truth. I understand everything your talking about. First of all I don't believe the Lord condemns me for taking paxil. This is a much more complicated issue than you put it. In times past, when someone was going through something in their life whatever problems might have arose, I would share the good news of Jesus. And I mean to say it's very good news! Quite honestly, a relationship and following Him has brought the most fulfillment and help to my life during times of crisis and not. But right now my mind is I believe messed up because it is depressed and I believe because paxil changed my brain chemistry and when I took it away, my brain didn't just go back to "normal" What happened instead, is I am stuck with what I call a chemical depression. Boy wouldn't I love to have God take it away and be fine without medication. I have prayed and prayed. For whatever reasons, He has chosen not to miraculously fix or cure me. I don't blame Him. He would never be at fault and it would never do me one ounce of any good to hold it against Him. So what would you suggest I do? Stay in this miserable condition forever? I don't think so. What do I tell my friends and anyone I know who might be going through a hard time? Do I push drugs? Heck no, I tell them right away about my history with paxil and what it's done to me. But in a lot of cases, once you've taken these meds, you'll have to keep taking something in order to feel "normal". At least that's how I see it in my case. I wish it weren't so. I tried for a year or better to treat it naturally and prayed and prayed about it and tried to draw close to the Lord and enjoy the presence and purpose of that relationship that had always made such a difference in my life. I wasn't getting any better and actually worse. I would have loved to come down with something that would have taken my life like cancer or some other serious illness just for relief. What kind of life is that? I know where I'm going and I'm not afraid to go. I know Who's hand I'll be in. I know I would suffer no more.

Please don't oversimplify this whole med thing. I think most people would say they're way overused, and if anything else could help do that first. But for many if this saves a life (suicide), then by all means take something if it's going to help. Please be carefull about interpreting the Bible to mean that we are going to hell if we take these meds.

The God I see and believe in, knows the heart and would not condemn me, now way no how for where I'm at.

Laney

 

Lou's reply- Laney

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2010, at 14:20:14

In reply to Re: Lou's reply-crwnovlif, posted by Laney on April 26, 2010, at 13:34:25

> Lou,
>
> I appreciate your wanting to help people see truth. I understand everything your talking about. First of all I don't believe the Lord condemns me for taking paxil. This is a much more complicated issue than you put it. In times past, when someone was going through something in their life whatever problems might have arose, I would share the good news of Jesus. And I mean to say it's very good news! Quite honestly, a relationship and following Him has brought the most fulfillment and help to my life during times of crisis and not. But right now my mind is I believe messed up because it is depressed and I believe because paxil changed my brain chemistry and when I took it away, my brain didn't just go back to "normal" What happened instead, is I am stuck with what I call a chemical depression. Boy wouldn't I love to have God take it away and be fine without medication. I have prayed and prayed. For whatever reasons, He has chosen not to miraculously fix or cure me. I don't blame Him. He would never be at fault and it would never do me one ounce of any good to hold it against Him. So what would you suggest I do? Stay in this miserable condition forever? I don't think so. What do I tell my friends and anyone I know who might be going through a hard time? Do I push drugs? Heck no, I tell them right away about my history with paxil and what it's done to me. But in a lot of cases, once you've taken these meds, you'll have to keep taking something in order to feel "normal". At least that's how I see it in my case. I wish it weren't so. I tried for a year or better to treat it naturally and prayed and prayed about it and tried to draw close to the Lord and enjoy the presence and purpose of that relationship that had always made such a difference in my life. I wasn't getting any better and actually worse. I would have loved to come down with something that would have taken my life like cancer or some other serious illness just for relief. What kind of life is that? I know where I'm going and I'm not afraid to go. I know Who's hand I'll be in. I know I would suffer no more.
>
> Please don't oversimplify this whole med thing. I think most people would say they're way overused, and if anything else could help do that first. But for many if this saves a life (suicide), then by all means take something if it's going to help. Please be carefull about interpreting the Bible to mean that we are going to hell if we take these meds.
>
> The God I see and believe in, knows the heart and would not condemn me, now way no how for where I'm at.
>
> Laney

Laney,
You wrote,[...I appreciate you wanting to help people...I underdtand...I don't believe.. for taking...].
This discussion is concerning what the bible that a member here uses does or not teach as others here have posted. I have cited some verses that show that that bible does indicate that there is life after death.
A discussion concerning as to what that bible teaches in relation to (redacted by respondent) has many other verses that are part of one making their own decision as to what that bible teaches concerning such.
My understanding of that biblical topic could come from a Jewish perspective and Mr. Hsiung has posted a threat to expell from this forum if I was to post that in my experiance it has been revealed to me that I have a commandment from my God to me that( redacted by respondent) which is the foundation of Judaism. So I may not be able to post here the answers to the questions that you have posted to me.
Lou

 

Lou's reply- Lou Pilder

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2010, at 19:42:04

In reply to Lou's reply- Laney, posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2010, at 14:20:14

> > Lou,
> >
> > I appreciate your wanting to help people see truth. I understand everything your talking about. First of all I don't believe the Lord condemns me for taking paxil. This is a much more complicated issue than you put it. In times past, when someone was going through something in their life whatever problems might have arose, I would share the good news of Jesus. And I mean to say it's very good news! Quite honestly, a relationship and following Him has brought the most fulfillment and help to my life during times of crisis and not. But right now my mind is I believe messed up because it is depressed and I believe because paxil changed my brain chemistry and when I took it away, my brain didn't just go back to "normal" What happened instead, is I am stuck with what I call a chemical depression. Boy wouldn't I love to have God take it away and be fine without medication. I have prayed and prayed. For whatever reasons, He has chosen not to miraculously fix or cure me. I don't blame Him. He would never be at fault and it would never do me one ounce of any good to hold it against Him. So what would you suggest I do? Stay in this miserable condition forever? I don't think so. What do I tell my friends and anyone I know who might be going through a hard time? Do I push drugs? Heck no, I tell them right away about my history with paxil and what it's done to me. But in a lot of cases, once you've taken these meds, you'll have to keep taking something in order to feel "normal". At least that's how I see it in my case. I wish it weren't so. I tried for a year or better to treat it naturally and prayed and prayed about it and tried to draw close to the Lord and enjoy the presence and purpose of that relationship that had always made such a difference in my life. I wasn't getting any better and actually worse. I would have loved to come down with something that would have taken my life like cancer or some other serious illness just for relief. What kind of life is that? I know where I'm going and I'm not afraid to go. I know Who's hand I'll be in. I know I would suffer no more.
> >
> > Please don't oversimplify this whole med thing. I think most people would say they're way overused, and if anything else could help do that first. But for many if this saves a life (suicide), then by all means take something if it's going to help. Please be carefull about interpreting the Bible to mean that we are going to hell if we take these meds.
> >
> > The God I see and believe in, knows the heart and would not condemn me, now way no how for where I'm at.
> >
> > Laney
>
> Laney,
> You wrote,[...I appreciate you wanting to help people...I underdtand...I don't believe.. for taking...].
> This discussion is concerning what the bible that a member here uses does or not teach as others here have posted. I have cited some verses that show that that bible does indicate that there is life after death.
> A discussion concerning as to what that bible teaches in relation to (redacted by respondent) has many other verses that are part of one making their own decision as to what that bible teaches concerning such.
> My understanding of that biblical topic could come from a Jewish perspective and Mr. Hsiung has posted a threat to expell from this forum if I was to post that in my experiance it has been revealed to me that I have a commandment from my God to me that( redacted by respondent) which is the foundation of Judaism. So I may not be able to post here the answers to the questions that you have posted to me.
> Lou
>
Laney,
You wrote,[...my mind is...changed my brain...stuck..what do you suggest that I do? stay in this.. condition..?...I wish it were not so... have to keep taking...what kind of life is that?...suffer no more...].
I would like to be of help here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Could you read;
Psalms 121:2-3
4:1
16:11
100:5
6:2
30:10
B Could you read;
Proverbs 3:5-6
21:21
C. Could you read;
Isaiah 61:61
1:18-19
D. Could you read;
Exodus 34:6
Hosea 10:12
E. Could you read;
Matthew 5:6
If you could read all of those, then I think that we could have a better discussion.
Lou

 

correction to verse-Lou's reply-

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2010, at 19:56:44

In reply to Lou's reply- Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2010, at 19:42:04

> > > Lou,
> > >
> > > I appreciate your wanting to help people see truth. I understand everything your talking about. First of all I don't believe the Lord condemns me for taking paxil. This is a much more complicated issue than you put it. In times past, when someone was going through something in their life whatever problems might have arose, I would share the good news of Jesus. And I mean to say it's very good news! Quite honestly, a relationship and following Him has brought the most fulfillment and help to my life during times of crisis and not. But right now my mind is I believe messed up because it is depressed and I believe because paxil changed my brain chemistry and when I took it away, my brain didn't just go back to "normal" What happened instead, is I am stuck with what I call a chemical depression. Boy wouldn't I love to have God take it away and be fine without medication. I have prayed and prayed. For whatever reasons, He has chosen not to miraculously fix or cure me. I don't blame Him. He would never be at fault and it would never do me one ounce of any good to hold it against Him. So what would you suggest I do? Stay in this miserable condition forever? I don't think so. What do I tell my friends and anyone I know who might be going through a hard time? Do I push drugs? Heck no, I tell them right away about my history with paxil and what it's done to me. But in a lot of cases, once you've taken these meds, you'll have to keep taking something in order to feel "normal". At least that's how I see it in my case. I wish it weren't so. I tried for a year or better to treat it naturally and prayed and prayed about it and tried to draw close to the Lord and enjoy the presence and purpose of that relationship that had always made such a difference in my life. I wasn't getting any better and actually worse. I would have loved to come down with something that would have taken my life like cancer or some other serious illness just for relief. What kind of life is that? I know where I'm going and I'm not afraid to go. I know Who's hand I'll be in. I know I would suffer no more.
> > >
> > > Please don't oversimplify this whole med thing. I think most people would say they're way overused, and if anything else could help do that first. But for many if this saves a life (suicide), then by all means take something if it's going to help. Please be carefull about interpreting the Bible to mean that we are going to hell if we take these meds.
> > >
> > > The God I see and believe in, knows the heart and would not condemn me, now way no how for where I'm at.
> > >
> > > Laney
> >
> > Laney,
> > You wrote,[...I appreciate you wanting to help people...I underdtand...I don't believe.. for taking...].
> > This discussion is concerning what the bible that a member here uses does or not teach as others here have posted. I have cited some verses that show that that bible does indicate that there is life after death.
> > A discussion concerning as to what that bible teaches in relation to (redacted by respondent) has many other verses that are part of one making their own decision as to what that bible teaches concerning such.
> > My understanding of that biblical topic could come from a Jewish perspective and Mr. Hsiung has posted a threat to expell from this forum if I was to post that in my experiance it has been revealed to me that I have a commandment from my God to me that( redacted by respondent) which is the foundation of Judaism. So I may not be able to post here the answers to the questions that you have posted to me.
> > Lou
> >
> Laney,
> You wrote,[...my mind is...changed my brain...stuck..what do you suggest that I do? stay in this.. condition..?...I wish it were not so... have to keep taking...what kind of life is that?...suffer no more...].
> I would like to be of help here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Could you read;
> Psalms 121:2-3
> 4:1
> 16:11
> 100:5
> 6:2
> 30:10
> B Could you read;
> Proverbs 3:5-6
> 21:21
> C. Could you read;
> Isaiah 61:61
> 1:18-19
> D. Could you read;
> Exodus 34:6
> Hosea 10:12
> E. Could you read;
> Matthew 5:6
> If you could read all of those, then I think that we could have a better discussion.
> Lou

correction:
Isaiah 61:61 is instead, Isaiah 61:1

 

Re: no one claims to have seen God rnny

Posted by rayww on April 28, 2010, at 1:09:13

In reply to no one claims to have seen God, posted by rnny on March 21, 2010, at 1:03:12

> No one claims to have seen God yet many worship him. How could that be?

I have not seen God, but He has testified to me that Joseph Smith did see Him. I know many like me who can say they "know" God exists, the same as Joseph Smith.

I don't visit this site any more, but tonight I read all the posts in this thread.

I still take Empower, and have for five years. I had a stroke that affected my spiritual side much the same as those of you who have a similar disconnect using drugs. Empower will not give you a buzz or a sudden burst of energy, but you immediately just feel like yourself, and with those like me, I feel a gradual healing of my brain. When I had my stroke I couldn't type, or think out a clear sentence, but that is coming better every year.

Although I still have a spiritual disconnect, and find it difficult to tune in and pray, I still know that Joseph Smith saw god and I love my church. I attend every Sunday and feel grateful for it all week in between. It is not just a Sunday thing for me. My family and most of my grandkids attend with me, and It is a beautiful experience. I would be surprised if anyone would feel unwelcome there, although I realize it goes both ways.

We have been telling the world since 1820 that Joseph Smith saw God. Hello....He really did. Religion is all about relationships, and relationships (in my opinion, and that I have and believe in) are tied to ordinances and covenants, and priesthood only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We believe in the whole Bible, including the revelation of John. One comment about "fire and brimstone": Since most of the Book of Revelation is written in symbolism, what makes you think fire and brimstone isn't symbolic too? Of course, on second thought, fire and brimstone is obviously a significant part of our universe. There seems to be plenty of it out there.

No one has all the answers, but I am very satisfied with the ones we have.

As far as the discussion on drugs and sorceries go, that will all work out in the end, but in my opinion, it would work out smoother with religion. Pure religion is faith, hope and charity.

 

Lou's request-theehnd rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 28, 2010, at 6:30:12

In reply to Re: no one claims to have seen God rnny, posted by rayww on April 28, 2010, at 1:09:13

> > No one claims to have seen God yet many worship him. How could that be?
>
> I have not seen God, but He has testified to me that Joseph Smith did see Him. I know many like me who can say they "know" God exists, the same as Joseph Smith.
>
> I don't visit this site any more, but tonight I read all the posts in this thread.
>
> I still take Empower, and have for five years. I had a stroke that affected my spiritual side much the same as those of you who have a similar disconnect using drugs. Empower will not give you a buzz or a sudden burst of energy, but you immediately just feel like yourself, and with those like me, I feel a gradual healing of my brain. When I had my stroke I couldn't type, or think out a clear sentence, but that is coming better every year.
>
> Although I still have a spiritual disconnect, and find it difficult to tune in and pray, I still know that Joseph Smith saw god and I love my church. I attend every Sunday and feel grateful for it all week in between. It is not just a Sunday thing for me. My family and most of my grandkids attend with me, and It is a beautiful experience. I would be surprised if anyone would feel unwelcome there, although I realize it goes both ways.
>
> We have been telling the world since 1820 that Joseph Smith saw God. Hello....He really did. Religion is all about relationships, and relationships (in my opinion, and that I have and believe in) are tied to ordinances and covenants, and priesthood only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
>
> We believe in the whole Bible, including the revelation of John. One comment about "fire and brimstone": Since most of the Book of Revelation is written in symbolism, what makes you think fire and brimstone isn't symbolic too? Of course, on second thought, fire and brimstone is obviously a significant part of our universe. There seems to be plenty of it out there.
>
> No one has all the answers, but I am very satisfied with the ones we have.
>
> As far as the discussion on drugs and sorceries go, that will all work out in the end, but in my opinion, it would work out smoother with religion. Pure religion is faith, hope and charity.

rayww,
You wrote,[...symbolism..fire and brimstone...As far as the discussion on drugs and sorceris go, that will work out in the end..]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Is the end;
1. the end of the world
2. the end of the discussion here in this thread
3. the end of an age
4. something else?
B. In sybolism;
1. Are you wanting to mean that fire and brimstone are symbols? If so, what could those symbols represent, if you know?
C. other questions if the above are answerd
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-theehnd Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on April 28, 2010, at 12:28:18

In reply to Lou's request-theehnd rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on April 28, 2010, at 6:30:12

> > > No one claims to have seen God yet many worship him. How could that be?
> >
> > I have not seen God, but He has testified to me that Joseph Smith did see Him. I know many like me who can say they "know" God exists, the same as Joseph Smith.
> >
> > I don't visit this site any more, but tonight I read all the posts in this thread.
> >
> > I still take Empower, and have for five years. I had a stroke that affected my spiritual side much the same as those of you who have a similar disconnect using drugs. Empower will not give you a buzz or a sudden burst of energy, but you immediately just feel like yourself, and with those like me, I feel a gradual healing of my brain. When I had my stroke I couldn't type, or think out a clear sentence, but that is coming better every year.
> >
> > Although I still have a spiritual disconnect, and find it difficult to tune in and pray, I still know that Joseph Smith saw god and I love my church. I attend every Sunday and feel grateful for it all week in between. It is not just a Sunday thing for me. My family and most of my grandkids attend with me, and It is a beautiful experience. I would be surprised if anyone would feel unwelcome there, although I realize it goes both ways.
> >
> > We have been telling the world since 1820 that Joseph Smith saw God. Hello....He really did. Religion is all about relationships, and relationships (in my opinion, and that I have and believe in) are tied to ordinances and covenants, and priesthood only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
> >
> > We believe in the whole Bible, including the revelation of John. One comment about "fire and brimstone": Since most of the Book of Revelation is written in symbolism, what makes you think fire and brimstone isn't symbolic too? Of course, on second thought, fire and brimstone is obviously a significant part of our universe. There seems to be plenty of it out there.
> >
> > No one has all the answers, but I am very satisfied with the ones we have.
> >
> > As far as the discussion on drugs and sorceries go, that will all work out in the end, but in my opinion, it would work out smoother with religion. Pure religion is faith, hope and charity.
>
> rayww,
> You wrote,[...symbolism..fire and brimstone...As far as the discussion on drugs and sorceris go, that will work out in the end..]
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Is the end;
> 1. the end of the world
> 2. the end of the discussion here in this thread
> 3. the end of an age
> 4. something else?
> B. In sybolism;
> 1. Are you wanting to mean that fire and brimstone are symbols? If so, what could those symbols represent, if you know?
> C. other questions if the above are answerd
> Lou

In the end refers to end of life.

The prophets chose very graphic words to describe the pain we will (in the end) feel because of unrepented sin, and guilt. In my opinion this would happen after we die, and when we see exactly how things are. I chose a few quotes to show how symbols are used in other places in scripture.

Racked means tortured. 5 Anciently a rack was a framework on which the victim was laid with each ankle and wrist tied to a spindle which could then be turned to cause unbearable pain.

A harrow is a frame with spikes through it. When pulled across the ground, it rips and tears into the soil. The scriptures frequently speak of souls and minds being harrowed up with guilt. 6

Torment means to twist, a means of torture so painful that even the innocent would confess. 7

The prophets speak of the gall of bitterness 8 and often compare the pain of guilt to fire and brimstone. Brimstone is another name for sulfur.

If you would like to view the article that explains this more fully, and which I quoted from, here it is, unedited:

Boyd K. Packer, The Touch of the Masters Hand, Liahona, Jul 2001, 2528

We all make mistakes. It is then in our nature to feel guilt and humiliation and suffering, which we alone cannot cure. That is when the healing power of the Atonement will help.

This matter of sustaining the officers is a great protection to the Church. The Lord commanded that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been [duly] ordained by the heads of the church. 1 In this way members of the Church in every organization all over the world know who the true messengers are.

It is my purpose to ease the pain of those who suffer from the very unpleasant feeling of guilt. I feel like the doctor who begins his treatment by saying, Now, this may hurt a little.

Every one of us has at least tasted the pain of conscience which follows our mistakes.

John said that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 2 Then he said it more strongly, If we say that we have not sinned, we make [the Lord] a liar, and his word is not in us. 3

All of us sometime, and some of us much of the time, suffer remorse of conscience from things we did wrong or things left undone. That feeling of guilt is to the spirit what pain is to the physical body.

But guilt can be harder to bear than physical pain. Physical pain is natures warning system that signals something needs to be changed or cleansed or treated, perhaps even removed by surgery. Guilt, the pain of our conscience, cannot be healed the same way.

If you are burdened with depressing feelings of guilt or disappointment, of failure or shame, there is a cure. My intent is not to hurt your tender feelings but to help you and help those you love. The prophets teach how painful guilt can be. As I read what they have said, be prepared for very strong words. Even so, I will not read the strongest things they have said.

The prophet Alma, describing his feelings of guilt, said, I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. 4

The prophets chose very graphic words.

Racked means tortured. 5 Anciently a rack was a framework on which the victim was laid with each ankle and wrist tied to a spindle which could then be turned to cause unbearable pain.

A harrow is a frame with spikes through it. When pulled across the ground, it rips and tears into the soil. The scriptures frequently speak of souls and minds being harrowed up with guilt. 6

Torment means to twist, a means of torture so painful that even the innocent would confess. 7

The prophets speak of the gall of bitterness 8 and often compare the pain of guilt to fire and brimstone. Brimstone is another name for sulfur.

King Benjamin said that those who are evil will be consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment. 9

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man [or woman] is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. 10

That lake of fire and brimstone, ever burning but never consumed, is the description in the scriptures for hell. 11

Suppose there was no cure, no way to ease spiritual pain or to erase the agony of guilt. Suppose each mistake, each sin, was added to the others with the racking, the harrowing up, the torment going on forever. Too many of us needlessly carry burdens of guilt and shame.

The scriptures teach that there must needs be opposition in all things. If not, righteousness could not be brought to pass, 12 neither happiness, nor joy, neither redemption.

The third article of faith teaches, We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. [A of F 1:3] The Atonement offers redemption from spiritual death and from suffering caused by sin.

For some reason, we think the Atonement of Christ applies only at the end of mortal life to redemption from the Fall, from spiritual death. It is much more than that. It is an ever-present power to call upon in everyday life. When we are racked or harrowed up or tormented by guilt or burdened with grief, He can heal us. While we do not fully understand how the Atonement of Christ was made, we can experience the peace of God, which passeth all understanding. 13

The gospel plan is the great plan of happiness. 14 It is contrary to the nature of God and contrary to the very nature of man to find happiness in sin. Wickedness never was happiness. 15

We know that some anxiety and depression is caused by physical disorders, but much (perhaps most) of it is not pain of the body but of the spirit. Spiritual pain resulting from guilt can be replaced with peace of mind.

In contrast to the hard words condemning sin, listen to the calming, healing words of mercy, which balance the harsher words of justice.

Alma said: My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but my soul is pained no more. 16

I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell.

And as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! 17

We all make mistakes. Sometimes we harm ourselves and seriously injure others in ways that we alone cannot repair. We break things that we alone cannot fix. It is then in our nature to feel guilt and humiliation and suffering, which we alone cannot cure. That is when the healing power of the Atonement will help.

The Lord said, Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent. 18

If Christ had not made His Atonement, the penalties for mistakes would be added one on the other. Life would be hopeless. But He willingly sacrificed in order that we may be redeemed. And He said, Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. 19

Ezekiel said: If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him. 20

Think of that, not even mentioned!

We can even retain a remission of [our] sins. 21 Baptism by immersion is for the remission of our sins. That covenant can be renewed by partaking of the sacrament each week. 22

The Atonement has practical, personal, everyday value; apply it in your life. It can be activated with so simple a beginning as prayer. You will not thereafter be free from trouble and mistakes but can erase the guilt through repentance and be at peace.

I quoted the third article of faith. It has two parts: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, [then the conditions] by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Justice requires that there be a punishment. 23 Guilt is not erased without pain. There are laws to obey and ordinances to receive, and there are penalties to pay.

Physical pain requires treatment and a change in lifestyle.

So it is with spiritual pain. There must be repentance and discipline, most of which is self-discipline. But to restore our innocence after serious transgressions, there must be confession to our bishop, who is the appointed judge.

The Lord promised, A new heart will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. 24 That spiritual heart surgery, like in the body, may cause you pain and require a change in habits and conduct. But in both cases, recovery brings renewed life and peace of mind.

When the heavens were opened and the Father and the Son stood before Joseph Smith, the Father spoke seven words: This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! 25 Revelation followed revelation, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 26 was organized. He Himself declared it to be the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. 27

Peter, James, and John restored the higher priesthood, and John the Baptist the Aaronic Priesthood. The fulness of the gospel was revealed.

Following the revelations which came and yet come to His Church, all that has been printed or preached or sung or built or taught or broadcast has been to the end that men and women and children can know the redeeming influence of the Atonement of Christ in their everyday lives and be at peace.

He said, Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. 28

As one who stands among His Apostles, I testify of Him and of the ever-present power of His Atonement.

From the lofty words of justice and mercy and of warning and hope in the verses of scripture, I turn to the very same message in verses of a simple poem:

Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer
Thought it scarcely worth his while
To waste much time on the old violin,
But held it up with a smile:
What am I bidden, good folks, he cried,
Wholl start the bidding for me?
A dollar, a dollar; then, Two! Only two?
Two dollars, and wholl make it three?
Three dollars, once; three dollars, twice;
Going for three But no,
From the room, far back, a gray-haired man
Came forward and picked up the bow;
Then, wiping the dust from the old violin,
And tightening the loose strings,
He played a melody pure and sweet
As a caroling angel sings.
The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said, What am I bid for the old violin?
And he held it up with the bow.
A thousand dollars, and wholl make it two?
Two thousand! And wholl make it three?
Three thousand, once, three thousand, twice,
And going, and gone! said he.
The people cheered, but some of them cried,
We do not quite understand
What changed its worth. Swift came the reply:
The touch of a masters hand.
And many a man with life out of tune,
And battered and scarred with sin,
Is auctioned cheap to the thoughtless crowd,
Much like the old violin.
A mess of pottage, a glass of wine,
A gameand he travels on.
Hes going once, and going twice,
Hes going and almost gone.
But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd
Never can quite understand
The worth of a soul and the change thats wrought
By the touch of the Masters hand. 29
In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Notes

1. D&C 42:11.

2. 1 Jn. 1:8.

3. 1 Jn. 1:10.

4. Alma 36:12; emphasis added.

5. See Mosiah 27:29; Alma 36:12, 1617; Morm. 9:3.

6. See 2 Ne. 9:47; Alma 14:6; Alma 15:3; Alma 36:12, 17, 19; Alma 39:7.

7. See Mosiah 2:39; Mosiah 3:25; Mosiah 5:5; Moro. 8:21.

8. See Alma 41:11; Acts 8:23; Mosiah 27:29; Alma 36:18; Morm. 8:31; Moro. 8:14.

9. Mosiah 3:25.

10. Deseret News, 8 July 1857, 138.

11. See Rev. 20:10; Rev. 21:8; 2 Ne. 9:16, 19, 26; 2 Ne. 28:23; Jacob 3:11; Jacob 6:10; Mosiah 3:27; Alma 12:17; Alma 14:14; D&C 63:17; D&C 76:36.

12. 2 Ne. 2:11.

13. Philip. 4:7.

14. Alma 42:8.

15. Alma 41:10; see also Alma 41:11.

16. Mosiah 27:29.

17. Alma 36:13, 1720.

18. D&C 19:16.

19. D&C 58:42; see also Heb. 8:12; Heb. 10:17.

20. Ezek. 33:1516.

21. Mosiah 4:12; see also 2 Ne. 25:26; 2 Ne. 31:17; Mosiah 3:13; Mosiah 4:11; Mosiah 15:11; Alma 4:14; Alma 7:6; Alma 12:34; Alma 13:16; Hel. 14:13; 3 Ne. 12:2; 3 Ne. 30:2; Moro. 8:25; Moro. 10:33.

22. See D&C 27:2.

23. See Alma 42:1622.

24. Ezek. 36:26.

25. JSH 1:17.

26. See D&C 115:4.

27. D&C 1:30.

28. John 14:27.

29. Myra Brooks Welch, The Touch of the Masters Hand, The Gospel Messenger, Brethren Press, 26 Feb. 1921.

 

Lou's request-ahtwun

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 29, 2010, at 19:53:31

In reply to Re: Lou's request-theehnd Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on April 28, 2010, at 12:28:18

rayww,
You wrote,[....I still have spiritual disconnect...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by that. If you could post answewrs to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
A.What happens in the disconnected state that is different from a connected state?
B. Do you know what could reconnect one to a spiritual connected state anf if so, what?
C. othere questions if the above are answerd.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-ahtwun

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2010, at 6:57:25

In reply to Lou's request-ahtwun, posted by Lou Pilder on April 29, 2010, at 19:53:31

I find that severe depression can produce a spiritual disconnect. My spirituality just evaporates. I am no less a believer in God during these times, but I just don't "feel" Him, and my thoughts are not towards Him.


- Scott


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