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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 22:31:37
In reply to Re: Declan, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 21:13:15
it's a matter of judgement. whether what larry said was true. it seemed to me (and for this i will get blocked, but no matter) that they were trying to manipulate each other. i believe deneb was trying to get larry to help her. larry tried to get her to help herself.i don't like to manipulate people. i do it, in the course of my job, and i stay up too late feeling terrible about it. no matter that the manipulations i engage in are pettier, more ignoble than the ones we are discussing. my own conscience is wracked. if we pretend that 'manipulative' is value neutral (like say, orange) then i hate manipulativeness the way i hate orange- just an unreasoning aversion to it. i hate it more in myself than others. i don't know why that is. a quirk.
i think sometimes the only manipulations i engage in are those for my personal gain. if i knew how to persuade someone from jumping off a building, i would probably save myself the trouble and walk away. and we are all irritated by do-gooders.
and i don't like to manipulate others. and i understand why manipulating another can maake the other physically sick. that is my reaction to being manipulated. and to manipulating others. that's why i don't do it, unless it benefits me and isn't too much trouble. for this my conscience keeps me up too late.
time for bed.
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 23:15:47
In reply to Re: Declan » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 22:31:37
hmm.
i'm going on a dictionary hunt...
1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
thats where Linehan emphasises that 'manipulation' is a SKILLFUL thing to do (and people learn skills of successfully manipulating their environment in skills training)
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully
ditto
b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
hmm. malevolent intent...
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose
hmm. malevolent intent again...
> it's a matter of judgement. whether what larry said was true. it seemed to me (and for this i will get blocked, but no matter) that they were trying to manipulate each other.in the skillful sense or in the malevolent sense?
i don't think you have bad intentions. bad desires. or that you would treat someone else unfairly in order to further your own ends :-(
and i think... it is judgemental to say that someone is doing this... and that... sometimes we can be our own worst enemy with attributing malevolent intent to ourself :-(
> i think sometimes the only manipulations i engage in are those for my personal gain.
:-(
that doesn't sound like the z i know...> and i don't like to manipulate others. and i understand why manipulating another can maake the other physically sick. that is my reaction to being manipulated. and to manipulating others. that's why i don't do it, unless it benefits me and isn't too much trouble. for this my conscience keeps me up too late.
is it...
about objectification?
its okay to manipulate the environment or inanimate objects...
but dehumanising to manipulate another person?
Posted by Tabitha on January 7, 2006, at 10:13:40
In reply to Lar's block, posted by ClearSkies on January 5, 2006, at 16:35:16
Wouldn't it be nice if Dr. Bob had just stepped in and said something like "Can we not use words like 'manipulate', 'lie', and 'game' here? It tends to sound accusatory. Thanks."
I think that might have gotten the point across without all the upset to Larry, Deneb, and everyone else.
Posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 12:08:22
In reply to Re: Lar's block, posted by Tabitha on January 7, 2006, at 10:13:40
What synonyms for "manipulate," "lie," and "game" would you use?
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 12:11:51
In reply to Re: Lar's block » Tabitha, posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 12:08:22
I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
"You have described yourself as being..."
Posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 12:28:18
In reply to Re: Lar's block, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 12:11:51
> I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:>> "You have described yourself as being..."
Hi Dinah,
Your suggestion looks perfect to me. I wonder what Dr. Bob thinks.
S.
Posted by Nickengland on January 7, 2006, at 13:44:48
In reply to Re: Lar's block, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 12:11:51
Hi Dinah
>I wonder if it would make a difference had the wording been:
>."You have described yourself as being..."
In effect, Larry was blocked because he did not state a premise which was there already...also because he used Deneb's own words -
That means it was civil for Deneb to use the words about herself.
Uncivil for Larry for using them without stating the premise of his assumption which Deneb had created when she expressed her actions..
I think the words you mention above would have meant Larry would not have been blocked...he already used "you" so that means for the lack of 5 words he was blocked more or less, for each word, just over a week totalling 42 days.
Do you feel the block was justifed?
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 14:27:12
In reply to Re: Lar's block » Dinah, posted by Nickengland on January 7, 2006, at 13:44:48
I don't know if the alternate wording would have been acceptable. That's why I asked.
I read the post differently than Dr. Bob did. But Dr. Bob wasn't the only one to read the post that way.
It wouldn't have been my call to block Lar, no. And certainly not for six weeks. I think Dr. Bob has the discretion to block for lesser lengths of time. But experience has taught me that it's not much use to ask for that discretion to be used.
But then I was reading the exchange in context of knowing that Lar was favorably disposed to Deneb and concluding that he was unlikely to wish to be uncivil or hurtful to her. In fact, I have a tendency to keep context in mind a lot when reading posts. Prior history between two people, a person's characteristic style of expression and the possibility for misunderstanding, that sort of thing. Perhaps it's better for the community that Dr. Bob judges a post strictly on its content. Because keeping context in mind can obscure sudden changes in context. Not that I'm saying there was a sudden change in context this time. But it does happen.
Posted by Tabitha on January 7, 2006, at 16:00:03
In reply to Re: Lar's block » Tabitha, posted by Sarah T. on January 7, 2006, at 12:08:22
> What synonyms for "manipulate," "lie," and "game" would you use?
I wouldn't suggest using synonyms for those words. Any synonyms would most likely also be considered uncivil here.
Posted by Nickengland on January 7, 2006, at 18:28:39
In reply to Re: Lar's block » Nickengland, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 14:27:12
Hello Dinah,
I must apologise, I think my post was alittle aggressive...I had to "get it out" some how written on the boards how I felt about the block - sorry that it was to your post..
>But then I was reading the exchange in context of knowing that Lar was favorably disposed to Deneb and concluding that he was unlikely to wish to be uncivil or hurtful to her. In fact, I have a tendency to keep context in mind a lot when reading posts. Prior history between two people, a person's characteristic style of expression and the possibility for misunderstanding, that sort of thing. Perhaps it's better for the community that Dr. Bob judges a post strictly on its content. Because keeping context in mind can obscure sudden changes in context. Not that I'm saying there was a sudden change in context this time. But it does happen.
That makes complete sense to me, I fully understand what you're saying..
Its intersting how sometimes negative situations on here do then turn out to be better somehow along the lines. Its a shame that they happen in the first place, but then if something good arises that was not in place before - I guess its like every cloud has a silver lining so to speak...hopefully that will be the outcome of this :-)
Warm regards
Nick
Posted by muffled on January 7, 2006, at 23:07:51
In reply to Re: Lar's block » Dinah, posted by Nickengland on January 7, 2006, at 18:28:39
Posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:13:46
In reply to Lar's block, posted by ClearSkies on January 5, 2006, at 16:35:16
I don't know how, or why, Larry got blocked - and don't need to.
There's something so fundamentally wrong with this site, you may not see the problem if you're deeply involved in it.
Enough for me to say goodbye. I was barely here anyway.
I'll say it again: Larry Hoover was just about the only reason I visited this site. I only dream about being that knowledgable, intelligent, creative, insightful, giving, and helpful.
Most of message boards and chatrooms are so much fluff. Everyone, either, patting themselves or each other on the back, and putting the best spin on themselves.
Larry, on the other hand, is REAL. I just hope to be that real.
Verne
Posted by wildcard on January 7, 2006, at 23:18:31
In reply to Re: Lar's block, posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:13:46
and i agree Lar's block should be minimized if not removed....
Posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:25:46
In reply to Re: Declan » zeugma, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 23:15:47
Congrats for red flagging, and bringing to Dr. Bob's attention, an earlier post and getting the poster blocked. You're good at that! How many you manage to get banned this month? You can take a barely questionable post and dress it up for a Dr. Bob's block. Way to go!
If I'm not already blocked, please count me amongst the blocked. Better company by far.
Happy Hunting!
Verne
Posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:27:41
In reply to Re: Declan » alexandra_k, posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:25:46
Posted by Declan on January 7, 2006, at 23:49:17
In reply to Above for Alexandra, Sorry Declan (nm), posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:27:41
Oh, no problem sweetie, everyone's upset eh? And, uh, if you get blocked I'll have one less reason to come here, you know, to read your literate posts. This is like some psychodrama thingo, the meaning of which is obscure.
Declan
Posted by Sarah T. on January 8, 2006, at 0:22:03
In reply to Lets vote!Who thinks Lar should only get 1 wk? Yes (nm), posted by muffled on January 7, 2006, at 23:07:51
After seeing Larry take the fall for several other posters and getting blocked on several occasions, I think Larry's only mistake is in returning to this board. I would like him to return for selfish reasons. But if I am to think about what might be best for him (isn't that arrogant -- Sarah presuming to know what's best for Larry?), I'd say, "Larry, don't waste any more of your life on the message boards. As I said over on 'Social' (I think that's where I said it), Larry, you should go to medical school. Eventually, you'll get the recognition and remuneration you deserve instead of the abuse you get on Internet message boards, several of which are nothing more than huge dysfunctional families."
Posted by muffled on January 8, 2006, at 0:25:37
In reply to I vote: Larry shouldn't have been blocked at all » muffled, posted by Sarah T. on January 8, 2006, at 0:22:03
Posted by All Done on January 8, 2006, at 1:57:20
In reply to Re: Declan » alexandra_k, posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:25:46
((((alex))))
Posted by sleepygirl on January 8, 2006, at 4:27:06
In reply to Lar's block, posted by ClearSkies on January 5, 2006, at 16:35:16
Posted by zeugma on January 8, 2006, at 7:05:12
In reply to Re: Declan » alexandra_k, posted by verne on January 7, 2006, at 23:25:46
i don't think alexandra was trying to red flag anyone in that post.
larry should be unblocked. that's my vote.
-z
Posted by Berberis on January 8, 2006, at 8:22:23
In reply to Re: Declan » verne, posted by zeugma on January 8, 2006, at 7:05:12
Posted by verne on January 8, 2006, at 8:35:15
In reply to Re: alexandra, posted by All Done on January 8, 2006, at 1:57:20
Sorry Alexandra,
I was posting while drunk again. I get so belligerent at times. I didn't know what I was saying. Got kicked off a game site last night for being obnoxious and expect to be blocked here soon.
sheepishly,
Verne
Posted by linkadge on January 8, 2006, at 10:30:52
In reply to Sorry Alexandra, posted by verne on January 8, 2006, at 8:35:15
I can't really say I have an oppinion. I suppose some of the original posts have been deleted.
I would need to see them in order to form an oppinion.Linkadge
Posted by wildcard on January 8, 2006, at 10:37:33
In reply to ?, posted by linkadge on January 8, 2006, at 10:30:52
hey link~i don't think the posts are gone, just already off social w/ all the threads re: this and other stuff. maybe look at the ones from a few days ago...
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