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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 56. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by b2chica on January 30, 2014, at 14:17:44
So has anyone had TMS and is it working any?
secondly, has anyone had an MRI and noticed a mood alteration?*********
i recently had an MRI done (all is well) however, i went in with my mood being mostly stable.
Then after MRi i noticed for the next 24/48 or so hours i felt really great, then i crashed. i'm down, hard to focus, Constantly Tired... hard to keep my mind on things. i am able to still work. but anytime i stop. my 'blues' jump at me. i need to start another med to kick up my mood.i'm not sure if it is effect from MRI or not. but i'm just curious if others have felt mood alterations from procedures?
-b2chica
Posted by phidippus on January 30, 2014, at 14:56:33
In reply to TMS/MRI and depression?, posted by b2chica on January 30, 2014, at 14:17:44
Trans Magnetic Stimulation should help treat depression.
I too have experienced euphoria on the MRI table. Thought I had seizure.
Eric
Posted by Twinleaf on January 30, 2014, at 16:19:07
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression? » b2chica, posted by phidippus on January 30, 2014, at 14:56:33
Wasn't that how they discovered the positive effects of magnetic stimulation - by observing the positive effects of MRIs on patients at McLean Hospital?
I have had rTMS. When I had a severe depression six years ago, a course of 30 treatments cleared it up completely, but only for about 3-4 weeks, with a slow relapse after. At that time, I would have several treatments every few months, which would give a pretty good remission for several weeks. Because of the expense and the relatively short remissions, I stopped the maintenance TMS treatments about a year ago. Psychotherapy and a variety of measures to lower my cortisol (which was high, especially at night when it should be low) seem to have resulted in a more lasting remission. TMS does work well for me, though, but was more of a short-term solution. It does a lot of great things for your brain - making the left frontal lobes more active, lowering cortisol, and restoring healthier function to the hippocampus
Posted by Hugh on February 1, 2014, at 10:00:20
In reply to TMS/MRI and depression?, posted by b2chica on January 30, 2014, at 14:17:44
Both the patients and psychiatrists were startled. Manic-depressives undergoing brain scans, not a really pleasant experience, came out of the machine happier than when they went in.
One severely depressed woman left the scanner laughing and joking. It was totally not like her. After a 20-minute scan, another woman happily asked a researcher, "What did you do to me?"Entire article at
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/01.22/01-depression.html
Posted by Hugh on February 1, 2014, at 10:27:04
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression?, posted by Twinleaf on January 30, 2014, at 16:19:07
I wonder if it would have lasted longer if you'd received Deep TMS, or if you'd received the priming stimulation protocol for TMS? I wonder if anyone has tried a combination of Deep TMS and priming stimulation?
Posted by Twinleaf on February 1, 2014, at 12:25:54
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression? » Twinleaf, posted by Hugh on February 1, 2014, at 10:27:04
Very interesting article! I have only had high-frequency stimulation of the left hemisphere. It would be very interesting to find out if low-frequency (suppressive) stimulation of the right hemisphere is superior - either by itself or with the priming described in the article. I was a failure on almost all of the regular ad's, but did have a robust response to TMS - just not very lasting.
I am looking forward to finding out more about deep TMS when it becomes available locally. I don't need it now, but you never know.
Thanks for a very informative article.
Posted by johnLA on February 1, 2014, at 13:59:58
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression? » Twinleaf, posted by Hugh on February 1, 2014, at 10:27:04
hi hugh-
thanks for posting the links.
any info when the 'deep' tms will be rolling-out nationally?
it seems the few that are doing it are back east. curious if you know of any out here in los angeles? i will do a search myself, but was just curious if you had come across anything.
thanks again for the info.
john
Posted by Hugh on February 1, 2014, at 16:53:55
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression? » Hugh, posted by johnLA on February 1, 2014, at 13:59:58
Hi John,
UCLA has one, and I know you have connections there.
https://www.facebook.com/uclaanxietydisorders/posts/10151885414768098
But the only readily accessible one I know of in California is here:
http://www.siliconvalleytms.com
If I read about any more Deep TMS units in LA, I'll let you know. Shouldn't be too much longer.
Posted by Hugh on February 2, 2014, at 23:32:13
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression?, posted by Twinleaf on January 30, 2014, at 16:19:07
> Psychotherapy and a variety of measures to lower my cortisol (which was high, especially at night when it should be low) seem to have resulted in a more lasting remission.
I thought you might find this interesting:
http://74.63.154.231/here/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Ghaly__Teplitz_cortisol_study_2004.pdf
Posted by Twinleaf on February 3, 2014, at 7:13:08
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression? » Twinleaf, posted by Hugh on February 2, 2014, at 23:32:13
That's extremely interesting! I had never heard of it. Thanks!
Posted by Hugh on February 3, 2014, at 13:25:23
In reply to Re: TMS/MRI and depression? » Hugh, posted by Twinleaf on February 3, 2014, at 7:13:08
Posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2014, at 19:56:32
In reply to you're welcome (nm) » Twinleaf, posted by Hugh on February 3, 2014, at 13:25:23
I will have a TMS workup tomorrow and this is my final attempt to climb out from under a lifetime of depression. I have told all I will kill myself if TMS does not work, Life is not worth living as I have been. What makes so many of you want to keep trying? Is your depression not as long lasting or severe as mine...I don't understand what makes so many want to continue the drug merry go round without any results. Does that mean you get some enjoyment out of life which I do not?
Anyone with a good outcome from TMS, please write and tell me what I can expect.
I have chosen to come off NArdil without my docs approval and so far so good. I continue on Latuda 60 and Lithium 600.
I am done fighting if the TMS fails. NO reason to go on. Why does anyone with my history want to go on when so much time has been spent on meds, failed ECT, memory loss. It is incompabible with a life worth living so my days are winding down and I will give my place to someone who feels the fight is worth it. I don't after 40 years of trying.
Stargazer
Posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2014, at 7:03:08
In reply to TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep, posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2014, at 19:56:32
I do hope you find it helpful. Also, if it doesn't help, or doesn't help enough, there is deep TMS to try also, which is generally reported to be a more effective and powerful trestment than regular TMS. And it's good to know that TMS helps your brain return to a more normal way of functioning, and is extremely safe and free of side effects.
Do let us know how your treatment goes.
Posted by Hugh on February 21, 2014, at 18:53:06
In reply to TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep, posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2014, at 19:56:32
Is this the clinical trial at Yale you were considering? If so, is it LFMS instead of TMS?
Posted by stargazer2 on February 22, 2014, at 12:36:44
In reply to Re: TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep, posted by Hugh on February 21, 2014, at 18:53:06
What is LFMS? It is the Neurostar TMS therapy.
How do I find out if it is the deep one?Yale backed out of the study or I was told it was being put on Hold, so I found a MD office that uses the Neurostar TMS therapy, not sure if deep or I believe it is Left frontal.
Besides the cost 12K I am nervous about lack of response since nothing has worked even ECT, which is considered the gold standard although I never have believed that as my experience with ECT made me worse with memory loss and confusion.
Who has had the Neuro star TMS therapy and with what results?
Please give me reasssurance that this is the right thing to do since I believe I have no other options. Thanks.
SG
Posted by Hugh on February 23, 2014, at 17:49:14
In reply to Re: TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep, posted by stargazer2 on February 22, 2014, at 12:36:44
> Please give me reasssurance that this is the right thing to do since I believe I have no other options. Thanks.
I'd suggest that you read the Psycho-Babble posts about TMS by Twinleaf and Zatar and Brynb. Twinleaf and Zatar responded quite well to TMS, and Bryn responded quite well initially, but the positive benefits she received soon faded. Neurostar TMS was approved by the FDA in 2006, I believe. Brainsway's Deep TMS was just approved by the FDA a year ago. Neurostar TMS penetrates 1.5 cm into the brain. Deep TMS penetrates 6 or 7 cm. Neurostar sessions usually go on for at least four weeks. Deep TMS is initially used for two weeks.
I know that you've tried many antidepressants and ECT, but please don't feel that TMS is your last option. Ketamine infusions are showing great promise as a treatment for depression. Brynb received these in Manhattan from Edward Fruitman, MD. I believe he charges $250 per session. He also has an office on Long Island.
http://psychiatristdowntownny.com/Welcome.html
Neurofeedback has helped some people with depression who hadn't responded to medication or ECT. I know you're somewhere in New England. Laurence Hirshberg is a leading neurofeedback clinician, and he has offices in Providence and Cambridge.
http://neurodevelopmentcenter.com
Rae Tattenbaum is a prominent neurofeedback clinician in West Hartford.
LFMS (Low Field Magnetic Stimulation) is the depression treatment that Yale is studying. Harvard is organizing the study at McLean Hospital. Here's an article about it, where it's called EP-MRSI:
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/01.22/01-depression.html
Posted by johnLA on February 23, 2014, at 22:24:54
In reply to Re: TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep » stargazer2, posted by Hugh on February 23, 2014, at 17:49:14
god bless you hugh
Posted by Hugh on February 25, 2014, at 18:08:10
In reply to hugh » Hugh, posted by johnLA on February 23, 2014, at 22:24:54
Thanks, John. I hope you're doing better.
Posted by Hugh on March 3, 2014, at 13:44:33
In reply to Re: TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep, posted by stargazer2 on February 22, 2014, at 12:36:44
They've just started using Deep TMS at Mclean Hospital.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 3, 2014, at 16:42:31
In reply to Re: TMS evaluation/ 40 years of meds 4 nonresp dep » stargazer2, posted by Hugh on March 3, 2014, at 13:44:33
Very interesting and encouraging! I hope many centers do the same.
Posted by stargazer2 on March 9, 2014, at 19:07:39
In reply to Deep TMS at Harvard/McLean, posted by Twinleaf on March 3, 2014, at 16:42:31
I need to know if TMS has a good chance of working
as the cost is 12K and I have exhausted most other treatments.
Posted by SLS on March 18, 2014, at 20:44:31
In reply to Would you do TMS? Who has had success?, posted by stargazer2 on March 9, 2014, at 19:07:39
> I need to know if TMS has a good chance of working
> as the cost is 12K and I have exhausted most other treatments.I don't think anyone feels comfortable speculating in order to answer your question. I certainly would not want to talk you out of choosing a treatment that would give you your life back. I also don't want to convince you to throw away 12K.
I still have rTMS and deep TMS on my list of possible treatments. However, I am waiting to see how people respond to Brintellix (vortioxetine) before making a decision on what to do next. This drug is different enough from other antidepressants such that I feel it is worth considering.
- Scott
Posted by stargazer2 on March 18, 2014, at 22:28:15
In reply to Re: Would you do TMS? Who has had success? » stargazer2, posted by SLS on March 18, 2014, at 20:44:31
I thought I would hear from those who have had the TMS treatment. I guess not too many have from the lack of responses. I would rather try something like this than stay on the med merry go round which has had limited success for over 30 years. I have no other alternatives or at least that is my impression of what else there is to try.
Thanks Scott for at least responding. It's nice to know I am not alone on th planet 'Depression'.
Posted by SLS on March 19, 2014, at 7:27:42
In reply to Re: Would you do TMS? Who has had success?, posted by stargazer2 on March 18, 2014, at 22:28:15
> I thought I would hear from those who have had the TMS treatment. I guess not too many have from the lack of responses. I would rather try something like this than stay on the med merry go round which has had limited success for over 30 years. I have no other alternatives or at least that is my impression of what else there is to try.
>
> Thanks Scott for at least responding. It's nice to know I am not alone on th planet 'Depression'.You are not alone. Not at all. It's hard to account for why someone's post should not garner a reply. It happens to me all of the time. It can be upsetting.
I am considering going for either the original Neurostar rTMS or the newer Brainsway deep TMS. As I get closer to making a decision, I will try to consult with a few experts in the field. I intend to remain on medication.
- Scott
Posted by stargazer2 on March 19, 2014, at 23:41:29
In reply to Re: Would you do TMS? Who has had success? » stargazer2, posted by SLS on March 19, 2014, at 7:27:42
Thanks for responding.
I have started the "shallow"as opposed to the newly defined "deep" rTMS and am in the second week. No change in my mood so far. My rating on the depression scale is 27 out of 27 so I have a long way to go to get in the single digits. I'm still on Latuda 60, Nardil 15 (restarted just a few days ago due to increase in SI) and Lithium 300.
My doc called tonight to say he reviewed my records(20+ years, right?)and sees that I did best on Celexa, Wellbutrin and Adderall back in 2000. I had told him that multiple times in the last 10 years and he didn't say much about it and since then I have been on the merry go round. He thinks maybe we should try that combo again.
Scott, BTW do you live in New England? I thought I may have seem that somewhere. I'm in CT. Thanks for all the input of your posts if I'm able to understand them, many times my brain is too distracted/unfocused to read much of anything.
SG
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