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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:34:14
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:22:48
>"benzodiazepines were created in the depths of hell by the very devil himself, and distributed freely here on earth by his demons"
I have never read a statement remotely resembling that on the benzo.org website. That kind of pseudo-religious hysteria is not something the British normally go in for. I would be more convinced if we could actually see a quote with a link to support it. We already have a statement form one lady who claims she joined the site and did not see any such statement.
Sounds like some people might be paranoid and vulnerable to making up stories and attributing sinister motives to people with conflicting beliefs around here:
"Also benzo.uk.org is an anti benzo site and if you dare to read their forums you will find out its a complete haven for anti medication, anti psychiatrist, anti basically everything to do with mental health care. They're like cultists...maybe they are scientologists, i really don't know."
I'm getting really tired by this (what seems to me) mean-spirited vendetta against people who wish to speak the truth about benzodiazepines. I realize this might make you feel uncomfortable, but that is not my intention. If you feel distressed then please leave the thread and ignore further posts.
Q
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:37:47
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » notfred, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:34:14
> I'm getting really tired by this (what seems to me) mean-spirited vendetta against people who wish to speak the truth about benzodiazepines. I realize this might make you feel uncomfortable, but that is not my intention. If you feel distressed then please leave the thread and ignore further posts.
>
> Q
The truth in their eyes, ignoring that many experts disagree. So that makes it their truth
and not "the" truth.
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 12:37:50
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:22:54
> >The only difference between the Benzo group and the mainstream group is that doctors in the Benzo group think it's a good idea to stay away from benzos, while mainstream doctors prescribe them as needed. Ideally, imho, benzos should be administered as needed, and when needed, and if needed, AND monitored during discontinuation.
>
>
> I think the main difference in Heather Ashton's view and those of most doctors, is that she thinks benzodiazepines are often over-prescribed and people are often given repeat prescriptions without proper review long after the original crisis has passed. In fact most doctors in the UK actually share her view, but they argue that long-term benzodiazepine dependence is an unfortunate clinical reality given the demands and restrictions placed on them in practice. Heather Ashton is a mainstream doctor.
>
> Q
>They are overprescribed, and worse, doctors and
patients are often unware of the consequences of stopping them or interrupting them or reaching tolerance. Dr. Ashton has provided professional help for people who don't know what the *** hit them. (Clonazepam is still a puzzle). I know from experience that I waisted 10 yrs. of productive life on what i call "inter-dose withdrawal", though the high thyroid hormone may have been a co-variable. It was an embarrassing and futile experience, at a time when in North America at least, benzos were not considered major drugs.I think we have a problem in our society, not only with benzos but all medications, esp. antidepressants which require closer and more careful monitoring. We just don't have enough drs. To make things worse, the drug companies have not cooperated with this problem by say, opening up clinics, but rather cloning existing classes of drugs for the sole sake of profit.
As for Ray, what can I say -- he's a born-again Christian with a medal in his pocket. :-) But you can't help but like the man.
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:43:50
In reply to Just a question, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 10:25:09
>What is, then, in peoples' opinion, the reason why the UK is so particulary 'benzophobic'? I always assumed (wrongly?) that it was down to Prof Aston's work. To be fair, I thought that she was some sort of academic anomaly, but perhaps I can see what Quintal is saying. But then, I'm curious, what caused the benzophobia?
Much anti-benzo hysteria was whipped up by Esther Rantzen on her 'That's Life!' consumer advice programme during the mid 1980's. She set up a help-line and even some sort of 'benzo meter' recording the number of people who had managed to quit them over a period of years since her campaign started. You might have seen enough of her personality to guess that she didn't give up the campaign that made her famous and won so many viewer ratings without a fight.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 13:36:29
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 10:36:35
>Yes, when I joined the opening statement before you join is "you must believe........created in the depths of hell, etc." Not lying. I cannot say for certain that the owner made this statement but had to be endorsed by him.
I'm curious why you, as a seemingly vehement supporter of long-term benzodiazepine use, decided to join a benzo withdrawal support group?
Which support forum did you join specifically valene? It appears there are several independent of benzo.org, though the website contains links to those sites for interested parties: http://www.benzo.org.uk/support.htm
I've searched through the site just now valene and I see no religious fundamentalism there. There is the symbol of the cross and the fish of course, but I think that's a harmless symbol of the faith that helped Ray Nimmo through the hardship of withdrawal. There is no pressure to conform to any particular belief system that I can see there.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:16:03
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 12:37:47
>The truth in their eyes, ignoring that many experts disagree. So that makes it their truth
and not "the" truth.So the anti-benzo people are solipsistic? Isn't that a surprise? To my eyes they are much the same as the pro-benzo people. People at opposite extremes of a political spectrum are actually often very much alike in my experience.
This is starting to look more and more like trolling notfred. If you have nothing more than glib sniping to add to this thread then kindly leave it.
Q
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:22:30
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » notfred, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:16:03
"The truth in their eyes, ignoring that many experts disagree. So that makes it their truth
> and not "the" truth.
>
> So the anti-benzo people are solipsistic? Isn't that a surprise? To my eyes they are much the same as the pro-benzo people."
Then there are those like me that do not use black and white thinking. benzos are good options for some and bad options for others.I am free, just as anyone else, to engage in threads as I like.
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:25:56
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 4, 2007, at 20:28:53
> "She is. Remember she ran a specialist benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic from 1982-1994 and that is where she obtained most of her data and experience. She published 'The Ashton Manual' free on the internet after being forced by law to retire from the NHS at the age of 65, so that her work could continue to help people who would otherwise have little or no support. I think it's awful Heather is so villified for doing that."
>
>
> When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
This means that when one only works with one group
of people the tendancy is to generalize across all groups.
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:28:10
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:22:30
Clonazepam remains a pharmaceutical enigma.
Maybe, it's like one of those other drugs a poster
recently wrote about, tr***something or other
that stood out in its class once they changed
a single molecule.Only your neighbourhood chemist knows for sure.
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:28:42
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:22:30
I posted this further up the thread:
Here are some quotes that I think give a summary of her advice for long-term benzodiazepine users:
__________________________________________________The advantages of discontinuing benzodiazepines do not necessarily mean that every long-term user should withdraw. Nobody should be forced or persuaded to withdraw against his or her will. In fact, people who are unwillingly pushed into withdrawal often do badly. On the other hand, the chances of success are very high for those sufficiently motivated. As mentioned before, almost anyone who really wants to come off can come off benzodiazepines. The option is up to you.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm
__________________________________________________The major clinical advantages of benzodiazepines are high efficacy, rapid onset of action and low toxicity. Adverse effects include psychomotor impairment, especially in the elderly, and occasionally paradoxical excitement. With long term use, tolerance, dependence and withdrawal effects can become major disadvantages. Unwanted effects can largely be prevented by keeping dosages minimal and courses short (ideally 4 weeks maximum, and by careful patient selection. ***Long term prescription is occasionally required for certain patients.***
http://www.benzo.org.uk/asgr.htm
__________________________________________________I think those quotes are a good enough antidote to this:
"Then there are those like me that do not use black and white thinking. benzos are good options for some and bad options for others."
>I am free, just as anyone else, to engage in threads as I like.
You are welcome to post on this thread if you have fresh information or some new perspective to add. You are not welcome here however, if you come to annoy and disrupt, no matter how free you may be to do so.
Q
Posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:31:35
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » notfred, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:28:42
>
> You are welcome to post on this thread if you have fresh information or some new perspective to add. You are not welcome here however, if you come to annoy and disrupt, no matter how free you may be to do so.
>
> QYou are not in control of who is welcome or not.
Do not read my posts if you are bothered by them.
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:35:03
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:25:56
>This means that when one only works with one group of people the tendancy is to generalize across all groups.
I don't think Heather Ashton is prone to generalization. She is far too experienced a scientist for that and I've seen no evidence of it myself. You may be able to isolate certain quotes from restricted passages to give that effect, but on the whole, the vast body of her work is very thorough in weighing up the subtleties of the problem.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:35:55
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:28:10
In what way do you think clonazepam is unique Squiggles?
Q
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:41:43
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:35:55
As I have said before, you can take 0.5mg
for 10 years and not have to raise it
for tolerance. It is also very difficult
and in some cases impossible to withdraw from.I don't know of any other benzos that have
those properties.Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:44:03
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by notfred on February 5, 2007, at 14:31:35
>You are not in control of who is welcome or not.
I am indeed in control of who I welcome and who I do not, though as you have said, I can't stop you posting.
This seems to be getting extremely childish and off-topic and that's the reason I don't welcome you to this thread I started. If you have something significant and insightful to add then please do so. Your opinion on this topic has been noted, thank you for providing it. However, your continued sniping is starting to seem to me like a wilful and malicious attempt to disrupt this thread.
>Do not read my posts if you are bothered by them.
Likewise.
Q
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 14:44:21
In reply to Re: Just a question » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 12:43:50
I didn't know that! I was only born in 1980. Although I do remember watching 'thats life'!
But surely a programme like that can't influence public policy like that? I mean, its one thing that sort of stuff appearing on a show, an other well, I dunno, influencing GPs and NHS policy and that.
Or I don't know? Can it? Perhaps it can.
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:48:39
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:41:43
Many people have already posted of their experience taking other benzos like Xanax for decades with out raising the dose (and sometimes lowering it).
I became addicted to clonazepam in the truest sense - compulsively raising the dose until at its height I was taking 20mg a day. It's always possible to withdraw from benzos though it may be very hard.
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:54:50
In reply to Re: Just a question » Quintal, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 14:44:21
>I didn't know that! I was only born in 1980. Although I do remember watching 'thats life'!
I was born in 1982 but don't remember watching it either!
I think it was the wave of public feeling against benzos that the programme generated which made the government revise it's policy. It was a form of investigative journalism and the government has to be seen respond to new evidence if it's very serious (which it was) along with the demands of irate voters.
Q
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:57:48
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:48:39
> Many people have already posted of their experience taking other benzos like Xanax for decades with out raising the dose (and sometimes lowering it).
>
Then there must have been another factor
influencing my need to raise the Xanax-- possibly
the Synthroid was too high.
> I became addicted to clonazepam in the truest sense - compulsively raising the dose until at its height I was taking 20mg a day. It's always possible to withdraw from benzos though it may be very hard.This too is strange. I took clonazepam for
7-10 yrs with no need to raise it; then my dr.
raised by .50 totalling to 1.0mg and I was fine.
I could have stayed there indefinitely, except
for my ill-considered attempt to withdraw from
that given my success with Xanax. It was that
horrible attempt that led to the necessity for raising it even more just to stabilize.Curiouser and curiouser -- but I don't expect you
to unravel this -- it just remains a mystery for me. I have other mysteries too; i've read a lot of books and still, they remain. :-)I hope you feel better coming off.
Tx.
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:59:43
In reply to Re: Just a question » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:54:50
>I was born in 1982 but don't remember watching it either!
I think I meant:
I was born in 1982 but don't remember watching it though!
Q
(:-0)
Posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 15:14:04
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:57:48
>Then there must have been another factor
influencing my need to raise the Xanax-- possibly
the Synthroid was too highThat could be true. I know myself how it can cause hellish anxiety to raise your thyroid hormone too high.
>This too is strange. I took clonazepam for
7-10 yrs with no need to raise it; then my dr.
raised by .50 totalling to 1.0mg and I was fine.
I could have stayed there indefinitely, except
for my ill-considered attempt to withdraw from
that given my success with Xanax. It was that
horrible attempt that led to the necessity for raising it even more just to stabilize.I felt no need to raise my dose above 4mg for over a year. I think I was actually seeking oblivion, just trying to forget, by raising the dose that high. It's wasn't really a therapeutic dose.
>I hope you feel better coming off.
Thank you. I do feel mentally sharper, though at the expense of being a little frail in the face of stress. I think I'll find a way around that with time. It's a shame my GP won't follow Heather Ashton's recommendations and give recovered addicts more time to heal emotionally after an abrupt withdrawal - she expected me to be ready for work two weeks after my last (20mg!)dose of clonazepam. I think that's the type of ignorance Heather was trying to address in her letter to Rosie Winterton and I'm very grateful to her for doing that.
Q
Posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 15:22:24
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 15:14:04
20mg is what they give to epileptics -- that
is so high; on the other hand you heard of
heroin addicts taking huge amounts, simply
because they have habituated to the dose.
Problems accumulate with higher dosages because
even though you can tolerate the amount, your
body takes the hit of the side effects of such
a dose.Coming off such a high amount though, must
take a long time to do and to recover. Yes,
absolutely, we need more specialists in this
area such as Professor Ashton. I think that
addiction specialists who help addicts of illegal drugs may actually be of assistance.Squiggles
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 5, 2007, at 15:54:11
In reply to Re: Just a question » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 14:54:50
I didn't know I was older than you!! I always imagined you to be older (alot?) than me. Its strange the misconceptions we get in our heads.
Well. I don't really know what to say about the benzo thing. I don't know enough thats for sure! I suppose a similar thing is going on re: suicides in young people and SSRIs? Perhaps. Anyway.
To be fair, and in my opinion, it seems abit harsh that a potentially useful drug is withheld from people who need it. I mean, I know Ashton says that you can get benzos for no more than 4 weeks, but in reality GPs won't really presribe them, if you see what I mean. Isn't it up to the indivdual to make these sort of choices about their lives? I mean, I'm in Finland now and got a prescription for some oxazepam with no problems from the pdoc - but I don't take them, I dunno. I mean, some people have crippling anxiety and that could just as much ruin their life as, say, taking a benzo and whatever that happens that is bad then you take them. To me, they don't seem to be as bad as the anti-benzo group seem to make out, if you see what I mean. Lots of things are addictive -- and you get withdrawal syptoms etc like coffee, cigarettes etc, but that doesn't nesscarily mean that they're banned or whatever.
I personally can't see what all the hatred for benzos is about, although I do realise I don't know much about them or their ill-effects.
How did that guys life get wrecked by benzos? I'm sure alot of people could say the same thing about say, alcohol, an addiction to sex/gambling/chatlines/whatever. But I guess benzos induce a physiological dependance...?
I don't know I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of whats going on.
And another thing, I'm just curious, how does a taper from a benzo differ in the suffering caused that from an AD for instance? For me, withdrawal from celexa and venlafaxine was no fun, it was miserable in fact. And was pretty much unsupervised by any GP. In fact, I don't think they offered any withdrawal advice whatsoever. I've never withdrawn from a benzo, so I have no comparison.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by valene on February 5, 2007, at 17:02:41
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks! » valene, posted by Quintal on February 5, 2007, at 13:36:29
> >Yes, when I joined the opening statement before you join is "you must believe........created in the depths of hell, etc." Not lying. I cannot say for certain that the owner made this statement but had to be endorsed by him.
>
> I'm curious why you, as a seemingly vehement supporter of long-term benzodiazepine use, decided to join a benzo withdrawal support group?******The answer, Quintal, not that I wish to publish my personal history here, but I will tell you a couple years ago my doctor suggested that I might want to taper off my xanax; hence I came home and did a web search, came up with benzo-uk-org, saw how "harmful" benzos were, and got scared, so joined the forum. I got sucked into the hype that any benzodiazepine use is absolutely uncalled for and extremely harmful. This is what the forum says, that and much worse. Every person on that forum has "extreme withdrawal symptoms" and is "dying". The headings on the posts say "I'm calling 911", I can't take it one more minute", "I'm dying " from withdrawals, etc. I actually saved a copy of the forum headings and each and every one said those things. Since then I have come to realize that benzos are not "evil" and they can be very beneficial for certain people.
>
> Which support forum did you join specifically valene? It appears there are several independent of benzo.org, though the website contains links to those sites for interested parties: http://www.benzo.org.uk/support.htm*******Quintal I don't like your condescending attitude toward me. There have been several "versions" of the forum on benzo-uk-org.....the one I joined is now called Benzo Island. Every time they make a sweep of the board and clean out the undesirables, such as anyone who questions their method of tapering off benzos, they rename the forum it seems. So forgive me if I don't recall the exact name of the forum, but it was the previous iteration of Benzo Island. They clean the boards periodically to get rid of anyone who might suggest that they take any other drug, such as an aspirin or I have seen people chastised for taking magnesium.
> I've searched through the site just now valene and I see no religious fundamentalism there. There is the symbol of the cross and the fish of course, but I think that's a harmless symbol of the faith that helped Ray Nimmo through the hardship of withdrawal. There is no pressure to conform to any particular belief system that I can see there.
******Quintal, I never said anything about "religious fundamentalism". You are putting words in my mouth!
I myself am a Christian. I merely quoted the words that were used "you must believe that Benzos were created by the very devil himself and distributed here on earth by his demons" - in order to join the forum. To me this is not any "religious" statement whatsoever. What pressure to conform to a belief system? Huh? He is being sarcastic and stressing the fact that "benzos are evil" , hence created by the devil.
Posted by Phillipa on February 5, 2007, at 17:26:36
In reply to Re: Ashton Rocks!, posted by Squiggles on February 5, 2007, at 14:41:43
Squiggles you can take up to 20mg of clonazepam as it is also used for seizure patients. And the t med you were trying to remember has one less oxygen ion and is trileptal taken from tegretol. Love Phillipa
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