![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by lillabelle on June 10, 2003, at 4:13:01
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD » katia, posted by Ron Hill on June 9, 2003, at 15:57:42
Ron and Katia thanks for your post.
Rereading my last post I see that a lot of the symptons I mentioned for BP2 sound a lot like ADD.
I know I am definitely BP2 but in the last year I suspect strongly that I may also have adult ADD. It is somewhat difficult to differentiate the two, in my limited experience.
I think part of the problem is that in the past I have always associated ADD with children's ADHD, which primarily affects boys. I know I was not an ADHD child and I'm not sure if I was ADD either, apart from excessive daydreaming.Because I have a relatively high level of education (MA), and because I read constantly at a fairly intellectual level I always assumed that I could not have adult ADD. However as was previously posted much of my behaviour could be dxed as ADD and perhaps (not sure) educational achievement is no indicator of this disorder.
At present I cannot get to the bottom of this as i live in, for all intents and purposes, in a third world country where pdocs, for all intents and purposes, don't exist. Also pstims are banned, banned, banned. Anyway as I also wrote I can no longer tolerate pstims, at least ritalin, and phentermine (since the nardil overload).
The good news is I am going home to Toronto, Canada in two weeks. For the first time ever (I've been away 12 years) I hope to find a reputable and sympathetic pdoc. However, adderall and cylert are not available in Canada which is, as always, just my luck.
Back to you Katia; it doesn't sound like you have ADD, but who am I to tell. As for BP, that is for you and your pdoc to discern. Do you think you have ever experienced hypomania in any form? Did you get 'high' from AD's?
Ron, I really appreciate your research. There is so much to learn in this field and in spite of all the stinky things that have happened to me and the med disasters I still have hope that I will find lasting peace of mind.
Final word, at present I take 100mg of lamictal, 200mg of serzone and 50mg of trazadone at night to sleep. Bear in mind however that it took me a very long time to reach these levels. In the beginning I could not have tolerated such high dosages of any of the above.
PS (in previous post I mentioned gaba as being involved in my meds, I ment glutamate!!) (add??)
Posted by katia on June 10, 2003, at 14:56:56
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD, posted by lillabelle on June 10, 2003, at 4:13:01
HI,
Which country are you in if you don't mind me asking?
That's right I remember now that you mentioned your med cocktail earlier which is why I was drawn at first. I'm on 50mg of Serzone waiting 'til I see the pdoc on the 16th. and I'd been thinking of Lamictal. I also have a supply of Trazadone for sleep as needed. I haven't had to take it in months though, which is good. I took some benedryl the other night and that worked some. So we may end up having similar cocktails! (not the fun kind).I've not done any research but it would seem to me that academic achievement would not be indicative of ADD or ADHD or absence of. just my thoughts...
yes, I do get racy on ADs. The Serzone, which is why I dropped it to 50mg; and got racy on Celexa and Effexor; not on Zoloft. Zoloft means zombie for me.
It doesn't feel healthy, but I kinda like it. It gives me inspiration. or maybe inspiration is just coming to me from other sources..(nothing drug related).The reason why I question ADD or ADHD is that I'm in graduate school and have lots of readings and it takes me forever to read sometimes. It doesn't click what I'm reading; and have to focus really hard. But once the flow happens I'm in and focused.
welcome home! (soon) even though I'm not up north there but down here in Cal.
Katia
Posted by cybercafe on June 11, 2003, at 2:18:41
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD » lillabelle, posted by katia on June 10, 2003, at 14:56:56
> I've not done any research but it would seem to me that academic achievement would not be indicative of ADD or ADHD or absence of. just my thoughts...well i am bipolar + adhd and the strange thing is..... while i did worse than i might have, i did overall end up doing quite well in school... and i think many ADHDers find school easier (more stimulating) than work ... comments?
> The reason why I question ADD or ADHD is that I'm in graduate school and have lots of readings and it takes me forever to read sometimes. It doesn't click what I'm reading; and have to focus really hard. But once the flow happens I'm in and focused.
yeah i have that problem too...
today i was at a bus stop with a friend, and i noticed that other people didnt' seem to mind waiting for a bus whereas it drove me nuts ...... so looking back, it's surprising it took me six years to get diagnosed as ADHD
good luck guys
Posted by katia on June 11, 2003, at 14:37:10
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD, posted by cybercafe on June 11, 2003, at 2:18:41
>
> > I've not done any research but it would seem to me that academic achievement would not be indicative of ADD or ADHD or absence of. just my thoughts...
>
> well i am bipolar + adhd and the strange thing is..... while i did worse than i might have, i did overall end up doing quite well in school... and i think many ADHDers find school easier (more stimulating) than work ... comments?
>
> > The reason why I question ADD or ADHD is that I'm in graduate school and have lots of readings and it takes me forever to read sometimes. It doesn't click what I'm reading; and have to focus really hard. But once the flow happens I'm in and focused.
>
> yeah i have that problem too...
>
> today i was at a bus stop with a friend, and i noticed that other people didnt' seem to mind waiting for a bus whereas it drove me nuts ...... so looking back, it's surprising it took me six years to get diagnosed as ADHD
>
> good luck guysWhat you describe above at the busstop is also indicative of BP, no?
Posted by cybercafe on June 11, 2003, at 15:25:23
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD » cybercafe, posted by katia on June 11, 2003, at 14:37:10
> > today i was at a bus stop with a friend, and i noticed that other people didnt' seem to mind waiting for a bus whereas it drove me nuts ...... so looking back, it's surprising it took me six years to get diagnosed as ADHD
> >
> > good luck guys
>
> What you describe above at the busstop is also indicative of BP, no?
>that i'd like to know .... i don't know what a bipolar reaction would be... but i think only an ADHD person would feel overwhelming boredom ... ummm.. i know this because i react differently depending on how recently i took my ritalin dose
Posted by katia on June 11, 2003, at 18:54:21
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD, posted by cybercafe on June 11, 2003, at 15:25:23
> > > today i was at a bus stop with a friend, and i noticed that other people didnt' seem to mind waiting for a bus whereas it drove me nuts ...... so looking back, it's surprising it took me six years to get diagnosed as ADHD
> > >
> > > good luck guys
> >
> > What you describe above at the busstop is also indicative of BP, no?
> >
>
> that i'd like to know .... i don't know what a bipolar reaction would be... but i think only an ADHD person would feel overwhelming boredom ... ummm.. i know this because i react differently depending on how recently i took my ritalin doseOk so that might be an indicator right there. I've never felt bored; just wanting to crawl out of me skin - like I wanted my actions to match the raciness of my energy.
who knows!
I still need to look at those links Ron gave me. that'll probably give me a better idea.
Posted by Viridis on June 12, 2003, at 1:56:41
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD » cybercafe, posted by katia on June 11, 2003, at 18:54:21
I have ADD and am a university professor with a PhD. If I had to guess, I'd say a substantial proportion of professional academics (at least the ones I know) have ADD, probably higher than in the general population. In some ways there's more freedom to work at your own pace, in your own style, than in many occupations, and there's lots of diversity in what you do, especially if you do research and teach, etc. You do have to produce though, which means following through on some things even when your interest has shifted to something else.
I have periods of intense interest in certain subjects and projects, but also have a lot of trouble staying organized and meeting deadlines. It's very important for me to surround myself and collaborate with people who have different organizational skills; I think that's how I've survived. And the meds help a lot too, both for focus/concentration (Adderall), and the anxiety associated with high expectations and frequent semi-chaos (benzos).
Posted by jemma on June 12, 2003, at 12:31:32
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD, posted by Viridis on June 12, 2003, at 1:56:41
I have ADD and I'm in the film business. Now there is a study of functional ADD at work. Writers, directors, producers, designers, actors, musicians, makeup artists, cinematographers - all with acute ADD deficits. And strengths too - creativity, the ability to hyperfocus, extreme sensitivity to sound, light, language, design, what have you. The only way it works is to have a comprehensive team of non-ADD people to keep it all on track. Production managers for budget, co-ordinators to generate constant itineraries and schedules to keep everybody on track, a first AD to crack the whip on set and keep everybody focussed, a second AD to break down schedules, and a team of third ADs to round everybody up and make sure they're where they're supposed to be. Not to mention the transport co-ordinator who keeps all the people and equipment going to where they're supposed to be going, and a team of drivers to get them there.
When it works, it's a thing of beauty - eighty or so people, half of whom are wandering in a creative daze, focused on their roles, hair, costumes, lighting, whatever, and the other half of whom are organizing the first half so that it all runs like clockwork. It always amazes me that films get made at all.
- Jemma
Posted by Ron Hill on June 13, 2003, at 0:34:02
In reply to Re: Differences between BP II and ADHD » cybercafe, posted by katia on June 11, 2003, at 18:54:21
Hi Katie,
> Ok so that might be an indicator right there. I've never felt bored; just wanting to crawl out of me skin - like I wanted my actions to match the raciness of my energy.
> who knows!May I tell a short story that might help distinguish between a BP II and an ADD (ADHD) dx?
<beginning of story>
"A Bipolar II Husband and His ADD Wife Waiting for the Bus"
My wife is slightly-to-moderately ADD and I'm moderately BP II. If my wife wanted to catch the bus, she would arrive at the bus stop a couple minutes early, and she would get bored within the first few minutes of waiting. She would turn into what I affectionately call my "little far-away girl". I’m not sure where she goes exactly, but I know when she’s gone. It would never cross her mind to be frustrated or angry about the wait for the bus. Instead she’s just bored.
My response to the same situation would be much different. First of all, I have a very hard time gauging how long it will take to accomplish any given task. Therefore, although I intend to arrive right on time, or maybe 30 seconds before the bus is scheduled to arrive, I notoriously run late (arriving early would be an inefficient use of my time). So, before I even get to the bus stop, I’m frustrated because I’m running late. I’m frustrated with myself (self-talk: Why can’t I ever be on time) and I’m frustrated with the idiots that made me late (i.e.; the people dilly-dallying on the sidewalk while I’m trying to speed walk to the bus stop, the idiots that set the timing sequence of the traffic lights such that the DON’T WALK greets me at every intersection, etc). In summary, on route to the bus stop I’m feeling guilty ‘cause I was supposed to be on time and I’m feeling angry and frustrated because I’m afraid I’ll miss the bus.
Once I round the last corner and see the people waiting for the bus, I’m monetarily relieved that I did not miss it. I arrive at the stop and patiently wait for about 90 seconds. If the bus does not show up within the first 90 seconds or so, I start to get angry again. This time I’m mad at the idiots who run the bus company for wasting my time. Further, I’m frustrated by all the idiots whizzing by in there cars with only one occupant, wasting precious natural resources, and polluting the air solely to move their carcass from point A to point B. I’m also angry with our national government’s lack of leadership to advance mass transit. After all, here I am trying to do the right thing by taking the bus instead of driving my car, and what do I get? Inefficiency, delay, and frustration!
<end of story>
I’ve slightly exaggerated in this story for illustrative purposes. Also, I asked for and obtained permission from my wife to discuss her ADD in the story.
-- Ron
Posted by katia on June 13, 2003, at 8:38:59
In reply to Re: A BP II and an ADD waiting for the bus » katia, posted by Ron Hill on June 13, 2003, at 0:34:02
> Hi Katie,
>
> > Ok so that might be an indicator right there. I've never felt bored; just wanting to crawl out of me skin - like I wanted my actions to match the raciness of my energy.
> > who knows!
>
> May I tell a short story that might help distinguish between a BP II and an ADD (ADHD) dx?
>
> <beginning of story>
>
> "A Bipolar II Husband and His ADD Wife Waiting for the Bus"
>
> My wife is slightly-to-moderately ADD and I'm moderately BP II. If my wife wanted to catch the bus, she would arrive at the bus stop a couple minutes early, and she would get bored within the first few minutes of waiting. She would turn into what I affectionately call my "little far-away girl". I’m not sure where she goes exactly, but I know when she’s gone. It would never cross her mind to be frustrated or angry about the wait for the bus. Instead she’s just bored.
>
> My response to the same situation would be much different. First of all, I have a very hard time gauging how long it will take to accomplish any given task. Therefore, although I intend to arrive right on time, or maybe 30 seconds before the bus is scheduled to arrive, I notoriously run late (arriving early would be an inefficient use of my time). So, before I even get to the bus stop, I’m frustrated because I’m running late. I’m frustrated with myself (self-talk: Why can’t I ever be on time) and I’m frustrated with the idiots that made me late (i.e.; the people dilly-dallying on the sidewalk while I’m trying to speed walk to the bus stop, the idiots that set the timing sequence of the traffic lights such that the DON’T WALK greets me at every intersection, etc). In summary, on route to the bus stop I’m feeling guilty ‘cause I was supposed to be on time and I’m feeling angry and frustrated because I’m afraid I’ll miss the bus.
>
> Once I round the last corner and see the people waiting for the bus, I’m monetarily relieved that I did not miss it. I arrive at the stop and patiently wait for about 90 seconds. If the bus does not show up within the first 90 seconds or so, I start to get angry again. This time I’m mad at the idiots who run the bus company for wasting my time. Further, I’m frustrated by all the idiots whizzing by in there cars with only one occupant, wasting precious natural resources, and polluting the air solely to move their carcass from point A to point B. I’m also angry with our national government’s lack of leadership to advance mass transit. After all, here I am trying to do the right thing by taking the bus instead of driving my car, and what do I get? Inefficiency, delay, and frustration!
>
> <end of story>
>
> I’ve slightly exaggerated in this story for illustrative purposes. Also, I asked for and obtained permission from my wife to discuss her ADD in the story.
>
> -- Ronyep, scenario two is me. The knots/dramas we tie ourselves in....thanks for sharing that.
Posted by Ritch on June 13, 2003, at 10:21:14
In reply to Re: A BP II and an ADD waiting for the bus » katia, posted by Ron Hill on June 13, 2003, at 0:34:02
Ron, that was an interesting analogy. Do you remember that movie "Quick Change"(?) with Bill Murry? The scene with the compulsively on-time bus driver reminded me of how I feel (being in the driver's seat). There was a dude with a guitar on his back (that was probably stoned) and is trying to get on the bus (and the bus driver is already slightly late due to Murry), and he whacks the guitar on the door struggling to get inside and the bus driver just shuts the door and says: "I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS!", and drives away. I don't know why Wellbutrin is supposed to be the best AD for bipolars, but it definitely increased the impatience and irritability associated with waiting and made me intolerant of situations that had to do with time.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 13, 2003, at 22:44:26
In reply to BP II + ADD waiting for the bus,OCD driver? » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 13, 2003, at 10:21:14
> Do you remember that movie "Quick Change"(?) with Bill Murry?
I haven't seen it. Is it worth renting and watching? I like Bill Murray.
> I don't know why Wellbutrin is supposed to be the best AD for bipolars, but it definitely increased the impatience and irritability associated with waiting and made me intolerant of situations that had to do with time.
Yep, Wellbutrin did the same thing to me.
-- Ron
Posted by Ritch on June 13, 2003, at 23:12:41
In reply to Re: BP II + ADD waiting for the bus,OCD driver? » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on June 13, 2003, at 22:44:26
> > Do you remember that movie "Quick Change"(?) with Bill Murry?
>
> I haven't seen it. Is it worth renting and watching? I like Bill Murray.Someone told me about this movie being soooo funny a long time ago and all I could think about was "Caddyshack" or something like that-and never bothered to watch it, until it happened to be on TV the other day at a friend's house and it IS QUITE GOOD, I was a little surprised. Everytime I feel a little down I run that scene over in my head and it makes me laugh every time.
>
> > I don't know why Wellbutrin is supposed to be the best AD for bipolars, but it definitely increased the impatience and irritability associated with waiting and made me intolerant of situations that had to do with time.
>
> Yep, Wellbutrin did the same thing to me.
>
> -- RonDid you have the same trouble with Remeron? Those two (Wellbutrin and Remeron) gave me the worst irritabiity I've ever experienced with *any* med.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 14, 2003, at 0:25:55
In reply to Re: BP II + ADD waiting for the bus,OCD driver? » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 13, 2003, at 23:12:41
Mitch.
> ... it happened to be on TV the other day at a friend's house and it IS QUITE GOOD,...
I put it on my "Movies to Rent" list. Thanks!
> Did you have the same trouble with Remeron? Those two (Wellbutrin and Remeron) gave me the worst irritabiity I've ever experienced with *any* med.
I have never taken Remeron. I thought about it a few years ago, but after doing some reading I came to the conclusion that it would likely make me irritabile.
Boy, I am sooooo thankful that the depressive side of my illness responds well to nutritional supplements. AD medication and I just do not get along very well.
-- Ron
Posted by Ritch on June 14, 2003, at 10:19:43
In reply to Re: BP II + ADD waiting for the bus,OCD driver? » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on June 14, 2003, at 0:25:55
> Boy, I am sooooo thankful that the depressive side of my illness responds well to nutritional supplements. AD medication and I just do not get along very well.
>
> -- Ron
>
>
Ron,
I'm just taking a regular multivitamin, with a B-complex, 500mg of tyrosine, and some fishoil-supplementwise. I've read bits here and there about the ENADA NADH. I'm a little hesitant to try it because I am so susceptible to temper spells. What maintenance dose are you on now? You're using the enteric coated stuff, right?
Posted by Ron Hill on June 15, 2003, at 14:05:14
In reply to NADH question » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 14, 2003, at 10:19:43
Hi Mitch,
> I'm just taking a regular multivitamin, with a B-complex, 500mg of tyrosine, and some fishoil-supplementwise. I've read bits here and there about the ENADA NADH. I'm a little hesitant to try it because I am so susceptible to temper spells.
Your reluctance is understandable since ENADA NADH causes irritability in most people in a dose dependent fashion. Two add-on supplements have allowed me to resolve my bipolar related irritability (dysphoric mood states) and the ENADA NADH induced irritability. The two supplements are niacin (or niacinamide) and, to a lesser extent, TMG.
The benefit I find in adding TMG is that it seems to extend the time period of effectiveness for a given dose of ENADA NADH. In other words, without TMG, a 2.5 mg dose of ENADA NADH loses its effectiveness after about four days. But with TMG, it can last for almost a week. Therefore, TMG indirectly reduces my irritability by reducing my ENADA NADH dosing frequency. I think TMG is also providing a mild antidepressant effect.
However, the supplement that fixed my irritable (dysphoric) mood states is niacin. I currently take 125 mg of niacin twice or three times a day. The effect is profound. I plan to try niacinamide (either in addition to or in place of niacin) since the research indicates that niacinamide is better for irritability than niacin. The addition of niacin allows me the flexibility of taking 2.5 mg of ENADA NADH twice a week if I need the more frequent dosing to manage my atypical depressive symptoms.
> What maintenance dose are you on now?
I take 2.5 mg once or twice a week depending on how I feel. When the ENADA NADH dose begins to wear-off, I know it right away. I begin to lose my motivation and energy and I start to feel like I could slip back into my atypical depressive state. I try to stretch the dose as far as it will go because I’m of the belief that the risk of supplements losing their effectiveness can be reduced by minimizing the dosage and dosing frequency, and by taking holidays.
During the acute treatment phase of my atypical depression, I took 10 mg/day of the sublingual ENADAlert NADH. However, after ten days the initial dose began to cause bothersome irritability. It is my opinion that I needed the higher dose to pull me out of the very severe depression that I was in at the time. But the higher dose is not sustainable (nor needed) long-term. As an aside, my depression began to lift within 10 seconds of placing the first sublingual tablet under my tongue.
My theory is that the primary reason ENADA NADH (coenzyme one) is such a great benefit to me is because of its dopaminergic effects. However, in addition to its various functions throughout the body, coenzyme one also plays a role in the intercellular energy production process (i.e.; ATP production and utilization) and this feature might also be a factor in the equation regarding its effectiveness in treating my atypical depression. One cautionary note about my theories; they are always subject to change without notice.
Mitch, what symptoms of your BP II are you thinking ENADA NADH might help alleviate?
> You're using the enteric coated stuff, right?
Right.
-- Ron
Posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 14:26:13
In reply to Re: NADH question » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on June 15, 2003, at 14:05:14
> However, the supplement that fixed my irritable (dysphoric) mood states is niacin. I currently take 125 mg of niacin twice or three times a day. The effect is profound. I plan to try niacinamide (either in addition to or in place of niacin) since the research indicates that niacinamide is better for irritability than niacin. The addition of niacin allows me the flexibility of taking 2.5 mg of ENADA NADH twice a week if I need the more frequent dosing to manage my atypical depressive symptoms.
> Mitch, what symptoms of your BP II are you thinking ENADA NADH might help alleviate?
Thanks Ron, I think I am going to give the niacinamide (or niacin) a try first. I haven't been able to find ENADA NADH here where I live (there's ONE more big natural supp. store I haven't checked yet). I found NADH tablets, but they were a different brand and they weren't enteric coated (or at least they didn't say they were). Also, they were VERY expensive. I'm going to be heading into a depression sometime by the end of this month/beginning of July and was wondering if it would work without taking WB (which is the current plan). I want to avoid the WB because *it* causes irritability and sleep disruption. Who knows--maybe I can sneak a pinch of WB this summer without being irritable with the niacin thrown in... Did you have any sleep disruption on the NADH?
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 16, 2003, at 9:33:43
In reply to Re: NADH question-niacin » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 14:26:13
> Thanks Ron, I think I am going to give the niacinamide (or niacin) a try first. I haven't been able to find ENADA NADH here where I live (there's ONE more big natural supp. store I haven't checked yet). I found NADH tablets, but they were a different brand and they weren't enteric coated (or at least they didn't say they were). Also, they were VERY expensive.As far as I know, all NADH tablets arise from a patented process developed by an Austrian company. Many different companies market the product, but I believe it is all the same stuff. It is expensive, relative to other B-vitamin supplements.
Just for comparison pricing, I pay $17.39 US for 30 x 5mg tablets (oral), and $7.79 for 8 x 10mmg sublinguals (Enadalert).
I use a product marketed by Source Naturals. I think Ron uses a different one. I'm almost positive it's identical, though.
> I'm going to be heading into a depression sometime by the end of this month/beginning of July and was wondering if it would work without taking WB (which is the current plan). I want to avoid the WB because *it* causes irritability and sleep disruption. Who knows--maybe I can sneak a pinch of WB this summer without being irritable with the niacin thrown in... Did you have any sleep disruption on the NADH?
I get some sleep disruption from it, but I tend towards insomnia from absolutely anything that makes me feel better. That's just how it is for me. I just have to closely monitor the dose and frequency.
I took 10 mg/day for 5 days, until I was saturated with NADH. Since then, I'm averaging 5 mg/week. In those terms, this stuff is cheap (less than 10 cents/day).
I was going into a miny crash during Remeron withdrawal (major rebound insomnia), and I took 5 mg NADH two days in a row. Since then, I feel very good. Strong, and exceeding my expectations. Some insomnia, but that was already a big problem after the Remeron, so who's to say what was doing what.
As an aside, I've also been taking niacinamide, at 500 mg every few days. It is a natural antihistamine. Here we are at the peak of my allergy season (end of trees, start of grass), and I seldom even remember to take my regular antihistamines, and I only use my steroid inhalers every few days. Last year, and every year before that, as long as I can recall, I would be in very bad shape (emergency room?)if my allergy med intake was that inconsistent. There is a quite extraordinary difference this year, and it doesn't bother me in the least. Heh.
Lar
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 12:54:42
In reply to Re: NADH question-niacin » Ritch, posted by Larry Hoover on June 16, 2003, at 9:33:43
> As far as I know, all NADH tablets arise from a patented process developed by an Austrian company. Many different companies market the product, but I believe it is all the same stuff. It is expensive, relative to other B-vitamin supplements.
>
> Just for comparison pricing, I pay $17.39 US for 30 x 5mg tablets (oral), and $7.79 for 8 x 10mmg sublinguals (Enadalert).
>
> I use a product marketed by Source Naturals. I think Ron uses a different one. I'm almost positive it's identical, though.
That would mean that *all* NADH tablets *should* be enteric-coated unless the labeling indicates them to be used sub-lingually? That's what I am going to assume. If they need to be enteric coated to work-I would hate to get ones that weren't coated and didn't work. The tabs I saw were 5mg (I think #30 qty), and they were $30 a bottle-BUT it was buy one get one free (from what I remember).
> > I'm going to be heading into a depression sometime by the end of this month/beginning of July and was wondering if it would work without taking WB (which is the current plan). I want to avoid the WB because *it* causes irritability and sleep disruption. Who knows--maybe I can sneak a pinch of WB this summer without being irritable with the niacin thrown in... Did you have any sleep disruption on the NADH?
>
> I get some sleep disruption from it, but I tend towards insomnia from absolutely anything that makes me feel better. That's just how it is for me. I just have to closely monitor the dose and frequency.
>
> I took 10 mg/day for 5 days, until I was saturated with NADH. Since then, I'm averaging 5 mg/week. In those terms, this stuff is cheap (less than 10 cents/day).
>
> I was going into a miny crash during Remeron withdrawal (major rebound insomnia), and I took 5 mg NADH two days in a row. Since then, I feel very good. Strong, and exceeding my expectations. Some insomnia, but that was already a big problem after the Remeron, so who's to say what was doing what.
>
> As an aside, I've also been taking niacinamide, at 500 mg every few days. It is a natural antihistamine. Here we are at the peak of my allergy season (end of trees, start of grass), and I seldom even remember to take my regular antihistamines, and I only use my steroid inhalers every few days. Last year, and every year before that, as long as I can recall, I would be in very bad shape (emergency room?)if my allergy med intake was that inconsistent. There is a quite extraordinary difference this year, and it doesn't bother me in the least. Heh.
>
> Lar
Thanks Larry, I didn't realize that niacinamide had antihistaminic properties. I usually "pre-medicate" with 12.5mg of Benadryl before I mow the lawn and it helps-but I'm drowsy. Maybe I'll try "pre-medicating" with niacin instead. I get sleep disruption from all sorts of meds. I'm REALLY trying to find meds/combos/supps. that doesn't cause this (that's when I wake up 3 hrs in and then I can't get back to sleep-that's my main trouble). I've been going on probably a total of 4 1/2 hrs. sleep every night for a couple of weeks now. Last month it went on all month-and I definitely got manic symptoms. I added 3.75mg of buspirone at bedtime in an experiment to see if it would help my sleep and it made it worse! I switched to taking it first thing in the AM and its gotten better. Melatonin tends to make me depressed. I've heard the magnesium thing-but I'm very sensitive to anything that has a laxative effect-lithium was bad enough!
Posted by Ron Hill on June 16, 2003, at 20:37:37
In reply to Re: NADH question-niacin » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 15, 2003, at 14:26:13
Hey Mitch,
> Thanks Ron, I think I am going to give the niacinamide (or niacin) a try first. I haven't been able to find ENADA NADH here where I live (there's ONE more big natural supp. store I haven't checked yet). I found NADH tablets, but they were a different brand and they weren't enteric coated (or at least they didn't say they were). Also, they were VERY expensive.
The enteric-coated ENADA NADH is kind of expensive (retail price of about $1/day at a dose of 5 mg/day), but it would not cost very much for just one box as a trial. Further, as Larry pointed out, my 2.5 mg once or twice a week maintenance dose is very affordable. I buy it on-line at the following link. After the positive results of my initial trial, I decided to order six boxes of the 2.5 mg enteric-coated tablets because of the price break associated with buying multiple boxes on the iherb site.
http://www.iherb.com/enada.html
NADH is not the same as ENADA NADH. "ENADA" is the trade name registered to the Menuco Corporation for their patented product. ENADA NADH is the only stabilized and orally absorbable form of NADH currently available. It is licensed to many different distributors so several brand names (GNC, Source Naturals, etc) of ENADA NADH are on the market. Prior to the development of the enteric-coated ENADA NADH tablets, NADH could only be given intravenously because stomach acid would rapidly destroy the delicate molecule. Like Larry, I also currently use the Source Naturals brand. However, it is my understanding that the active ingredient is the same in all brands so long as it says ENADA somewhere on the box.
> I'm going to be heading into a depression sometime by the end of this month/beginning of July and was wondering if it would work without taking WB (which is the current plan).
Wow, you have the forecasting of your cycling nailed down to a science. Can you also predict the weather? Refresh my memory, is your depression the atypical variety? If so, I think a trial of ENADA NADH is worthwhile for you. As I mentioned previously, I started out taking the sublingual ENADAlert NADH and then switched to the enteric-coated product. However, I have run into people that do not respond to the enteric coated tablets but do obtain favorable results with the sublingual formulation. YMMV.
> I want to avoid the WB because *it* causes irritability and sleep disruption. Who knows--maybe I can sneak a pinch of WB this summer without being irritable with the niacin thrown in... Did you have any sleep disruption on the NADH?
No, but I take it first thing in the morning and I follow the directions on the box. As an aside, when I first started taking it, I felt like it would have caused some hypomania if I hadn’t had my moodstabilizer fully in place first.-- Ron
Here are some links discussing Enada NADH (you may have already seen these):
http://www.healthwell.com/hnbreakthroughs/mar98/nadh.cfm?path=hw
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8101444&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9247090&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=9013405&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/1,1525,10047,00.html#Cautions
http://www.nadh.com/site7/SYSact20.htm#Top
http://www.nadh.com/site7/RSdprs05.htm#Top
http://www.smart-drugs.com/article-JamesSouth-NADH.htm
http://www.nadh-priceinfo.org/
http://qualitycounts.com/fpnadh.html
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3118/T/Both/
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/powersearch2.cfm (Note: enter “NADH” as keyword)
Posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 23:25:41
In reply to Re: NADH question-niacin » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on June 16, 2003, at 20:37:37
> NADH is not the same as ENADA NADH. "ENADA" is the trade name registered to the Menuco Corporation for their patented product. ENADA NADH is the only stabilized and orally absorbable form of NADH currently available. It is licensed to many different distributors so several brand names (GNC, Source Naturals, etc) of ENADA NADH are on the market. Prior to the development of the enteric-coated ENADA NADH tablets, NADH could only be given intravenously because stomach acid would rapidly destroy the delicate molecule. Like Larry, I also currently use the Source Naturals brand. However, it is my understanding that the active ingredient is the same in all brands so long as it says ENADA somewhere on the box.
Thanks for clarifying that.
> Wow, you have the forecasting of your cycling nailed down to a science. Can you also predict the weather? Refresh my memory, is your depression the atypical variety? If so, I think a trial of ENADA NADH is worthwhile for you....
My cycling is a LOT like the WEATHER! I was very fascinated with Atmospheric Science and Climatology in college. You should check out the Showalter (sp?) Instability Index (for atmospheric instability). It is the rate of change in temperature (in degrees C) as you climb altitude (as measured by weather balloons with transmitters and radar feedback-for altitude). It gets a little complicated with density things, but unstable air rises rapidly through the atmosphere. If I was going to do some sort of physical science thing-"weather" would be it. The behavioural neurologist I saw told me that I might benefit from moving to Southern CA or some other place that has a Mediterranean climate (hey I would move to Santiago, Chile in a heartbeat!).
Depressions are definitely atypical. I'm gaining weight and craving carbs already. Just slowly getting more sleepy.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 17, 2003, at 13:14:48
In reply to Re: NADH question-niacin » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 12:54:42
Mitch,
> I've been going on probably a total of 4 1/2 hrs. sleep every night for a couple of weeks now ... I've heard the magnesium thing-but I'm very sensitive to anything that has a laxative effect-lithium was bad enough!
I (like most mental health patients) struggled with insomnia (getting to sleep and staying asleep). However, I now take 800 mg of magnesium at bedtime each night and it knocks me out like turning off a light and keeps me asleep throughout the night like a hibernating bear. I awake the next morning (after 8 hours of quality sleep) feeling refreshed and restored. I'm also convinced that the magnesium exerts positive effects on my brainchemistry functioning throughout the day.
Larry can say it better than I, but not all forms of magnesium are created equal when it comes to absorption. I take 400 mg/day (measured as Mg) of magnesium citrate and 400 mg/day (measured as Mg) of magnesium malate.Mitch, I highly recommend that you give it a try. You might ask Larry for his recommendation regarding which chelating agent is most likely to minimize the chance of diarrhea. However, if I've understood Larry's previous posts on this subject, it's the magnesium itself (independent of the chelating agent) that causes the loose stool.
You won't know until you try it. It might help immensely with your sleep issues. It did mine. Start by taking 200 mg at bedtime. If no diarrhea, titrate upward slowly. If diarrhea occurs anytime during the upward titration, back off on the dosage, and resume the upward titration at a slower rate.
For me, 800 mg/day softens my stool, but no diarrhea. YMMV.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on June 17, 2003, at 14:04:26
In reply to Re: NADH question-niacin » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 16, 2003, at 23:25:41
Mitch,
> I was very fascinated with Atmospheric Science and Climatology in college.
I also was interested in atmospheric science, but from an air pollution standpoint. While attending the University of Colorado in Boulder, I visited the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR). Cool place!
> Depressions are definitely atypical. I'm gaining weight and craving carbs already. Just slowly getting more sleepy.
Try some ENADA NADH. If I were you, I'd start by taking 10 mg/day of the sublingual product for eight days (one box of ENADAlert NADH) and then switch to the enteric-coated tablets and titrate down to an effective, yet sustainable, dose.
Mitch, if you get irritable, reduce your dosage immediately. Further, you may want to add 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide (or niacin) to control any bipolar related irritability and/or any ENADA NADH induced irritability. Lastly, you might try some TMG to enhance the effectiveness of the ENADA NADH.
Let us know how it works (if you try it).
-- Ron
Posted by Ritch on June 17, 2003, at 23:21:04
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on June 17, 2003, at 14:04:26
> Mitch,
>
> > I was very fascinated with Atmospheric Science and Climatology in college.
>
> I also was interested in atmospheric science, but from an air pollution standpoint. While attending the University of Colorado in Boulder, I visited the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR). Cool place!
>
> > Depressions are definitely atypical. I'm gaining weight and craving carbs already. Just slowly getting more sleepy.
>
> Try some ENADA NADH. If I were you, I'd start by taking 10 mg/day of the sublingual product for eight days (one box of ENADAlert NADH) and then switch to the enteric-coated tablets and titrate down to an effective, yet sustainable, dose.
>
> Mitch, if you get irritable, reduce your dosage immediately. Further, you may want to add 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide (or niacin) to control any bipolar related irritability and/or any ENADA NADH induced irritability. Lastly, you might try some TMG to enhance the effectiveness of the ENADA NADH.
>
> Let us know how it works (if you try it).
>
> -- Ron
>Ron,
Most of the sleep problems I have are the result of taking other meds. I'm a firm believer in minimizing or eliminating the sleep-disrupting culprits FIRST, then look at stuff to help sleep if their elimination doesn't improve things enough. I have got to eliminate a possible culprit first (buspirone), then investigate the magnesium. If I start getting very anergic I will check out the NADH. I'll post about it.
Mitch
Posted by Ron Hill on June 18, 2003, at 0:29:10
In reply to Re: ENADA NADH » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on June 17, 2003, at 23:21:04
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