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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 6:30:08
I can't tell you how bad I feel
I can't take any more meds
I'm done for
Posted by Phil on July 31, 2002, at 8:16:49
In reply to I'm finished, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 6:30:08
rjk, There is always hope. It just seems like there isn't. Call your doc or a friend, talk it out. We've all been there so please talk to us, okay?
Sincerely,
Phil
Posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 9:24:25
In reply to Re: I'm finished, posted by Phil on July 31, 2002, at 8:16:49
> rjk, There is always hope. It just seems like there isn't. Call your doc or a friend, talk it out. We've all been there so please talk to us, okay?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> PhilPhil, I used to believe that there was hope, but now I don't. I really cannot carry on feeling the way that I do.
Posted by sjb on July 31, 2002, at 10:10:48
In reply to Re: I'm finished » Phil, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 9:24:25
Man, I've been there. It will get better, trust me and others when they say that. I've really been helped by the "Steps to Speed Your Relief from Depression" from Dr. Ivan Goldberg's website. I don't have that quote exactly but you'll recognize when you go there. When I'm really down, I look at those steps and say, ok, do as many of the steps today as I can and I'll re-evaluate how I feel later.
Just getting outside, esp. during prime daylight, helps enormously for me. I'm running now, but was unable to do so during really down times. However, even those days when I had little energy, a walk in a nice setting helped so much. I love nature, the smell, the feel, the look. It's quite healing. So are pets. Do you have a cat or dog? Animals are the most loyal, non-judgemental creatures on the planets and can be a real lifesaver for depressives, I believe.
Take Care.
Posted by Phil on July 31, 2002, at 12:03:23
In reply to Re: I'm finished » Phil, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 9:24:25
Promising post from pharmrep. Stick around and hope will come back, there's no doubt.
I am a Celexa rep, and will be marketing Lexapro once the FDA gives final approval (sometime in August is what we've been told). I have gone to extra training to know the differences between Celexa and Lexapro, and when the samples go to the Dr's, so will the studies (very impressive.)
As far as efficacy...yes it will be more effective than Celexa or any antidepressant available...it will also be more tolerable with "side-effects and discontinuation due to adverse events comparable to placebo." That last quote is being allowed by the FDA...awesome. And most importantly...Lexapro is replacing Celexa because the technology to separate the isomers is just now available...so Ritch, you are partially right, but re-patent? Wrong...Celexa will still be available for 3 years before going generic. Dont lump Forest in with some other unethical pharm companies who get FDA approval years in advance, and then don't offer the new drug til the old one goes generic. Forest is moving to Lexapro because studies show Lexapro is better, and all our efforts will be in promoting the better drug. Hard to believe a company is giving up over $5 billion over the next 3 years...I guess the message Forest is sending is that it that sure Lexapro is that good.
Posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 14:26:05
In reply to Re: I'm finished, posted by Phil on July 31, 2002, at 12:03:23
> Promising post from pharmrep. Stick around and hope will come back, there's no doubt.
>
>
>
>
>
> I am a Celexa rep, and will be marketing Lexapro once the FDA gives final approval (sometime in August is what we've been told). I have gone to extra training to know the differences between Celexa and Lexapro, and when the samples go to the Dr's, so will the studies (very impressive.)
> As far as efficacy...yes it will be more effective than Celexa or any antidepressant available...it will also be more tolerable with "side-effects and discontinuation due to adverse events comparable to placebo." That last quote is being allowed by the FDA...awesome. And most importantly...Lexapro is replacing Celexa because the technology to separate the isomers is just now available...so Ritch, you are partially right, but re-patent? Wrong...Celexa will still be available for 3 years before going generic. Dont lump Forest in with some other unethical pharm companies who get FDA approval years in advance, and then don't offer the new drug til the old one goes generic. Forest is moving to Lexapro because studies show Lexapro is better, and all our efforts will be in promoting the better drug. Hard to believe a company is giving up over $5 billion over the next 3 years...I guess the message Forest is sending is that it that sure Lexapro is that good.
>Phil, thanks for your message.
I am sure this new drug will be very good, but there is no way that I can take any meds whatsoever. The problem is that I had a reaction to a combo of A/Ds, which has left my brain so sensitive to meds that I dare not take any more.
It seems that I am between a rock and a hard place. I feel absolutely terrible, but taking more meds will only make things worse. Its a no win situation.
Richard
Posted by janejj on July 31, 2002, at 14:28:44
In reply to I'm finished, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 6:30:08
Please don't give up !Its always good to hold onto some hope. I mean you seem like a very coherent guy to me, I imagine that you feel fucked up but you really don't come accross that way.
There is always hope that in the future someone somewhere may develop something to help people with problems like yours. I'm upset that a doctor gave you those drugs in combination, but maybe someday there will be something that will reverse the damage. Maybe even time might help.
I know problems are relative and all that, but at least you aren't blind and starving in a poor country during a strict regime like the Taliban.
Please keep hope. Let me know how you are doing and take care.
Janejj
Posted by Jaynee on July 31, 2002, at 16:39:31
In reply to Please don't give up on hope., posted by janejj on July 31, 2002, at 14:28:44
I can't say I know how you feel, but I do know I have been to what felt like a point of no return. Amazingly enough I did return, many times over. I went through 5 bouts of clinical depression, I am an anxious depressive, without any meds. It truly is like a living hell. You lose 20 to 30 pounds in a week, absolutley no sleep for weeks, can't work, enjoy anything, bloody awful, you feel like you would be better off dead. But some how I made it through. I am taking Celexa now. I had never been on anti-depressants before, and I am thinking about stopping. I probably shouldn't but, personally I think I will go through another bout of hell in about 5 years from now with or without the drugs, because that is how it works for me.
My long drawn out point is this. This hideous time in your life will pass. Most bouts of depression have life spans of it own. Try the numerous other drug-free options out there. Mediation, Yoga, spiritual healing, the different amino acid compounds, Passion flower is a good one for anxiety. There are many scientific studies done on it. There are tons of herbs out there. Buy Cognitive Therapy books and actually try to read and practice them. There are tons of herbs out there that can help. Inositol is being tested for depression with good results. Flaxseed oil and/or fish oil is very helpful. Chromium is also showing promise in helping depression. I could go on and on about the different options for depression that doesn't involved medications. Trust me, speaking from experience there are many different ways to fight depression without drugs, I've done it and been there. The important thing is actually truly give these other options time to work. Look up the different things to take, like Sam-e, Inositol, Flaxseed oil, chromium and calcium/magnesium, etc, and figure out which one you think will work best for you and truly give it a chance. Look it up on pub med and other areas on the net. Do some research.
Good luck, but that luck will be up to you.
PS., get a good physical and check for hemochromatosis and other conditions that can cause depression. I have hemochromatosis and this is why I am more likely to suffer from depression than others. Since being treated for that I am much better physically and emotionally. The treatment is very easy, you just donate "alot" of blood", and off load the extra iron. Iron is lethal for most of us, the medical profession is just figuring this out, and it is about time. There is a genetic test for this. Anyways, go get a good internist and get a head to toe check-up.
Posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 16:43:41
In reply to Please don't give up on hope., posted by janejj on July 31, 2002, at 14:28:44
> Please don't give up !Its always good to hold onto some hope. I mean you seem like a very coherent guy to me, I imagine that you feel fucked up but you really don't come accross that way.
>
> There is always hope that in the future someone somewhere may develop something to help people with problems like yours. I'm upset that a doctor gave you those drugs in combination, but maybe someday there will be something that will reverse the damage. Maybe even time might help.
>
> I know problems are relative and all that, but at least you aren't blind and starving in a poor country during a strict regime like the Taliban.
>
> Please keep hope. Let me know how you are doing and take care.
>
> JanejjDear Janejj,
Thanks for your message.
What really pisses me off is the fact that before I took that combo I was managing to lead a fairly normal life, working and having a social life etc. It was only because some stupid bastard of a psychiatrist decided that I should be 100% rather than 90% that I took it. Now I am down to about 10%. I have lost my job, I have no social life and I can't even take a fucking aspirin. I really don't see any point in carrying on. Frankly I would rather live in Afghanistan and have my health than go through what I am going through here.
Richard
Posted by katekite on July 31, 2002, at 17:52:22
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope. » janejj, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 16:43:41
I've felt a bit like that. I haven't had a job in 8 months, body feels like its deteriorating quickly... then one day I took the right hormone combo and felt around 80%, up from maybe 10%. More importantly it pointed me in a direction for diagnosis. The hormone is just a stop-gap measure. And lastly, it showed me that almost over-night I could be returned to the self I used to know. A self I was worried might no longer exist.
Under-neath how you feel now is probably still the old you. It's hard to remember, but that man would not want you to give up, even knowing what you're going through.
If you had to tolerate 5 years of this it would be worth it if you only could know that the rest would be 100%. It is the not knowing that kills more than the day to day pain, well at least for me.
It helped me to set a reasonable time limit. For me that was 5 years to find some way to improve life, and it had to be 5 years from the time I actively started trying. It has taken one year (a whole year) to get to 80%. If the five years had passed with no solution (and still if it turns out I have some inoperable tumor or something) I would not stay around to suffer. Along the way I have been told such horrible things as "you were born this way". Those things are not to be believed. It's time for looking for help and answers, not time to allow wayward docs to brand you as something you know you are not.
I don't believe that people should have to suffer and be uncomfortable all the time and be expected to just live with it if the condition is expected to last for life. A reasonable time period is how long it would take for the medical world to diagnose and treat a rare condition, at least a few years, and then for good measure add a couple years in case the first round of specialists are uninterested or hopelessly dumb or get on the wrong track.
If you were diabetic you would most likely not rather die than take insulin. It is hard to accept a condition that requires diagnosis and treatment when we used to be just normal healthy people. But diabetics do eventually accept that. Just like that, we need to get appropriate help. Diabetes is an "easy" disease to diagnose but it can take a year or two for most people to really figure it out because that is just the way it is. Rarer or more subtle problems take longer. Psychiatric issues take longer. Combined medical and psychiatric issues or multiple problems take even longer. If the doctors you've seen have blown you off, find a doctor you can work with. Find one who agrees you should not have to live like this forever.
Even when you feel terrible I've seen you give good advice to people and your words are rational. There is more to your 10% than in many people's 100%s. I know that 10% is not acceptable -- it's just not. But you don't seem beyond hope in any way. No more so than the people I see here that suddenly one day get a solution. It is worth it to stick it out.
I'm sorry you are suffering.
Have you been able to follow-up at all with the finding of the slow EEG? That seems to me like something to gather about 10 unrelated expert opinions on before tossing it aside as irrelevant. It's evidence of a true problem.
Lastly, if you don't have one, get a therapist just to bounce ideas off of and who can get you through the roughest spots. Therapy most likely can't itself change your brain chemistry, but a kind word never hurts the day to day living.
Kate
Posted by cybercafe on August 1, 2002, at 2:52:19
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope. » janejj, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 16:43:41
rjk >> if you are going to kill yourself anyway, you don't have anything to lose by heading to the hospital and trying ECT do you? .. it is very likely that you will feel 100% better -- can you even imagine what that would be like?
Posted by shar on August 1, 2002, at 3:03:13
In reply to Re: I'm finished » Phil, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 14:26:05
What do you think about researching natural supplements, as opposed to psych meds. I'm becoming more interested in that area. Not bandwagon interested, but finding out what herbs might be helpful, regardless of whether they are the latest and greatest.
I have this idea that recipes now lost to us (from olden days) might be a dang good starting point. Also, I am planning a trip to an apothecary (Chinese) where they know about herbs, and get some help there.
I just don't want to rule anything out because it's not used in western medicine. Plus, my AD experiences have not been that good.
There are actually some good, controlled studies coming out reporting the use and efficacy of some herbs and supplements. That's a big help.
Whatever you do, good luck.
Shar
Posted by denise528 on August 1, 2002, at 4:01:28
In reply to Re: I'm finished » Phil, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 14:26:05
> > Promising post from pharmrep. Stick around and hope will come back, there's no doubt.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a Celexa rep, and will be marketing Lexapro once the FDA gives final approval (sometime in August is what we've been told). I have gone to extra training to know the differences between Celexa and Lexapro, and when the samples go to the Dr's, so will the studies (very impressive.)
> > As far as efficacy...yes it will be more effective than Celexa or any antidepressant available...it will also be more tolerable with "side-effects and discontinuation due to adverse events comparable to placebo." That last quote is being allowed by the FDA...awesome. And most importantly...Lexapro is replacing Celexa because the technology to separate the isomers is just now available...so Ritch, you are partially right, but re-patent? Wrong...Celexa will still be available for 3 years before going generic. Dont lump Forest in with some other unethical pharm companies who get FDA approval years in advance, and then don't offer the new drug til the old one goes generic. Forest is moving to Lexapro because studies show Lexapro is better, and all our efforts will be in promoting the better drug. Hard to believe a company is giving up over $5 billion over the next 3 years...I guess the message Forest is sending is that it that sure Lexapro is that good.
> >
>
> Phil, thanks for your message.
>
> I am sure this new drug will be very good, but there is no way that I can take any meds whatsoever. The problem is that I had a reaction to a combo of A/Ds, which has left my brain so sensitive to meds that I dare not take any more.
>
> It seems that I am between a rock and a hard place. I feel absolutely terrible, but taking more meds will only make things worse. Its a no win situation.
>
> Richard
>
>
Richard, what about ECT or this VNS Stimulator that may help depression, have you considered that?Denise
Posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 7:59:15
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope., posted by cybercafe on August 1, 2002, at 2:52:19
>
> rjk >> if you are going to kill yourself anyway, you don't have anything to lose by heading to the hospital and trying ECT do you? .. it is very likely that you will feel 100% better -- can you even imagine what that would be like?
>
I have been told that I can't even have ect.I suppose that if I told them that I was going to kill myself unless they did it, then they might give it to me.
The outcome of all my medical experts is that I receive psychotherapy, which I find a waste of time. Not least because every time I see her she tells me it is a medical matter and asks me whether or not I think it is worth seeing her again.
It is all a waste of time. My head is fucked and I can't ever see it getting better.
Posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 8:27:54
In reply to Re: Richard, what about ect or VNS?, posted by denise528 on August 1, 2002, at 4:01:28
> > > Promising post from pharmrep. Stick around and hope will come back, there's no doubt.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am a Celexa rep, and will be marketing Lexapro once the FDA gives final approval (sometime in August is what we've been told). I have gone to extra training to know the differences between Celexa and Lexapro, and when the samples go to the Dr's, so will the studies (very impressive.)
> > > As far as efficacy...yes it will be more effective than Celexa or any antidepressant available...it will also be more tolerable with "side-effects and discontinuation due to adverse events comparable to placebo." That last quote is being allowed by the FDA...awesome. And most importantly...Lexapro is replacing Celexa because the technology to separate the isomers is just now available...so Ritch, you are partially right, but re-patent? Wrong...Celexa will still be available for 3 years before going generic. Dont lump Forest in with some other unethical pharm companies who get FDA approval years in advance, and then don't offer the new drug til the old one goes generic. Forest is moving to Lexapro because studies show Lexapro is better, and all our efforts will be in promoting the better drug. Hard to believe a company is giving up over $5 billion over the next 3 years...I guess the message Forest is sending is that it that sure Lexapro is that good.
> > >
> >
> > Phil, thanks for your message.
> >
> > I am sure this new drug will be very good, but there is no way that I can take any meds whatsoever. The problem is that I had a reaction to a combo of A/Ds, which has left my brain so sensitive to meds that I dare not take any more.
> >
> > It seems that I am between a rock and a hard place. I feel absolutely terrible, but taking more meds will only make things worse. Its a no win situation.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> Richard, what about ECT or this VNS Stimulator that may help depression, have you considered that?
>
> Denise
>Thanks Denise, but I have never heard of VNS. What is it?
Richard
Posted by Mashogr8 on August 1, 2002, at 10:57:20
In reply to Re: Richard, what about ect or VNS? » denise528, posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 8:27:54
VNS is a procedure with a device implanted in your chest with electrical (I think) pulses. The device is attached to the vagus nerve. Originally it was designed for controlling epilepsy. Some epileptics who were also depressed noted improvement in their depression, I believe. A research project was designed. Sixty people wwere recruited for the first study. The current study involving 232 or 322 subjects is now closed. I would love to know if anyone knows of any other research projects involving VNS.
You can get further info on www.cyberonics.com
MA
Posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 11:57:16
In reply to Re: Richard, VNS?, posted by Mashogr8 on August 1, 2002, at 10:57:20
> VNS is a procedure with a device implanted in your chest with electrical (I think) pulses. The device is attached to the vagus nerve. Originally it was designed for controlling epilepsy. Some epileptics who were also depressed noted improvement in their depression, I believe. A research project was designed. Sixty people wwere recruited for the first study. The current study involving 232 or 322 subjects is now closed. I would love to know if anyone knows of any other research projects involving VNS.
>
> You can get further info on www.cyberonics.com
>
> MAThanks. I did see something about it on TV a while ago and the results did seem quite good. I will check it out at the web site you mention.
Richard
Posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 12:08:24
In reply to Re: Richard, VNS?, posted by Mashogr8 on August 1, 2002, at 10:57:20
I have checked out their web site. It sounds interesting. I have sent them an email and asked them to let me have some more info. They also have an office in Europe, which is good because I am in England.
I am surprised that nobody has previously mentioned this on the message board.
Thanks again.
Richard
Posted by janejj on August 1, 2002, at 12:41:15
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope. » janejj, posted by rjk on July 31, 2002, at 16:43:41
Hi Richard,
I was thinking about your problem last night and it occured to me that you could possibly try de-sensitisation therapy. If there is a drug that you have responded well to, you could try taking the minutest bit and try to build it up very slowly. It sounds like you are very sensitive,so I mean like a dose thats so low its not medicinally beneficial at first.
I know they do this for people with allergies, inject them with the pollen until they become more or less immune to negative effect.
Just a thought, good luck,
Janejj
Posted by jaby on August 1, 2002, at 12:55:28
In reply to Re: Richard, what about ect or VNS? » denise528, posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 8:27:54
I have gone through a silimar experience to you with the med sensitivity thing. I always used to push the upper envelope of trying to get meds to work, but then became sensitive to smallest doses of things. The only thing I can think of (which you may have already tried) is something more "natural" like lithium. I have found it to be very benign and a decent mood booster
Posted by Sea on August 1, 2002, at 19:18:17
In reply to Re: Richard, VNS? » Mashogr8, posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 12:08:24
Richard,
You can find additional information on VNS at Mark George's site at the Medical University of South Carolina:
http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm
Dr. George was involved in the first VNS trial in treatment-resistant depression and is currently doing research in VNS and other forms of brain stimulation.
Keep hope, keep looking, we all have to have faith that there is something out there that will help us.
Sea
(who hasn't posted in a very long time)
Posted by cybercafe on August 2, 2002, at 2:31:56
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope. » cybercafe, posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 7:59:15
> I have been told that I can't even have ect.I suppose that if I told them that I was going to kill myself unless they did it, then they might give it to me.
actually i dunno... when my father had ECT they shocked him before the anaesthetic had time to take effect .. and while not being fun... i'm sure the result was (no more depression!)... between benzos, opiates, etc there must be something you can take no?
... did your doc even come up with a name/description of what is wrong with you?
... you should at least be able to have rTMS no? ..
> It is all a waste of time. My head is fucked and I can't ever see it getting better.
i felt the same way -- and then i got better!!
Posted by denise528 on August 2, 2002, at 3:39:06
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope. » cybercafe, posted by rjk on August 1, 2002, at 7:59:15
> >
> >Richard,Why are they saying you can't have ECT?
Denise
Posted by rjk on August 2, 2002, at 15:56:42
In reply to Please don't give up on hope.What about this ?rjk, posted by janejj on August 1, 2002, at 12:41:15
> Hi Richard,
>
> I was thinking about your problem last night and it occured to me that you could possibly try de-sensitisation therapy. If there is a drug that you have responded well to, you could try taking the minutest bit and try to build it up very slowly. It sounds like you are very sensitive,so I mean like a dose thats so low its not medicinally beneficial at first.
>
> I know they do this for people with allergies, inject them with the pollen until they become more or less immune to negative effect.
>
> Just a thought, good luck,
>
> JanejjThanks Janejj and thanks for thinking about me.
The problem that I have is this. Since I combined Remeron and Effexor, I have had extreme immediate reactions to any meds that I have taken and the more that I have taken, the more sensitive my brain has become. I am sure that it is not an allergy type thing. I am convinced that that combination of drugs was far too strong for my brain to accept and they have damaged whatever mechanism the brain normally has that mean A/Ds normally take weeks to work. Even if I did start something at a minute dose, I would just be making my brain even more sensitive than it already is. I suppose by now it probably doesn't matter. It will never recover to what it was anyway, so it could be worth a try. The problem is going to be trying to divide a tablet small enough so that it doesn't give me a blinding headache the following day.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Richard
Posted by rjk on August 2, 2002, at 16:07:57
In reply to Re: Please don't give up on hope., posted by cybercafe on August 2, 2002, at 2:31:56
> > I have been told that I can't even have ect.I suppose that if I told them that I was going to kill myself unless they did it, then they might give it to me.
>
> actually i dunno... when my father had ECT they shocked him before the anaesthetic had time to take effect .. and while not being fun... i'm sure the result was (no more depression!)... between benzos, opiates, etc there must be something you can take no?
>
> ... did your doc even come up with a name/description of what is wrong with you?
>
> ... you should at least be able to have rTMS no? ..
>
> > It is all a waste of time. My head is fucked and I can't ever see it getting better.
>
> i felt the same way -- and then i got better!!
>
Thanks SEA,
I live in England and I am fairly sure that rTMS is not generally available. I looked into it a short while ago. Is it generally available in The States?
Richard
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