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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 54 to 78 of 103. Go back in thread:
Posted by ClearSkies on January 31, 2007, at 7:58:23
In reply to sorry...will go work on self..., posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
>
> i just really think we are adults here...give us pbc's but the lecturing by deputies feels...i don't know. sometimes there is just a lot of emotion that a person is experiencing, and needs to be left to come to things on their own. what i'm saying is lecturing them on how they should *think* when they are *feeling* irrational possibly is not necessarily...i don't know...i know it's the babble way but it feels like you're being lectured as if a parent to a child. i don't know, maybe i'm wrong on this...just something to ponder, though...
>
>
>Alesta, I'm sorry if it feels like you've been lectured to. As deputies, it's our duty to remind posters to express themselves civilly, even when we are upset.
I hope that you can see the good intention in our posts.
Thanks,
ClearSkies, poster and deputy
Posted by zazenduckie on January 31, 2007, at 8:26:09
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 19:08:52
>
Shouldn't this word be written with an asterisk? I personally would prefer that disparaging language not be used but I believe Bob wants it asterisked. I thought that was done automatically.
From Merriam Webster
Main Entry: m*·ron
Pronunciation: 'm*r-"än
Function: noun
Etymology: irregular from Greek mOros foolish, stupid
1 usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person
2 : a very stupid person> >
> >
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 9:44:38
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder » gardenergirl, posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 22:18:04
Not all people with a PD do any of the things you state.
So no, you cannot state you feel disgust with ALL PD people.
You are including *me* in that statement.. I have never victimised, I do not need to be shielded from *my* behaviours,
You are talking about *me*. Yes, that is personal.
You know what, I have my hands pretty full right now. I work, I suffer from what is classed as the most painful condition out there, I do ALOT of voluntary work in trying to brak down the stigmas surrounding PD's, and the fact that ignorant people out there presume so so much about someone with a PD.
You feel angry? Try changing all the wors in your post that say PD to alesta.. then imagine how angry *I* feel right now.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 9:46:22
In reply to alesta » alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 7:51:11
Some of us might like to hear an apology after being told quite how disgusting they are.
*shrugs*
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:50:01
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 9:46:22
I think she has apologized multiple times - how many do *I'm sorry's* do you think will be enough?
I think your point has been made. I'm sorry your hurt.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2007, at 10:18:26
In reply to sorry...will go work on self..., posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
> I just wanted to say how sorry I am now that I've calmed down. I'm living in a mental war zone right now, and the rage and devastating put-downs and humiliations and hurts are starting to crush my soul...i've been through this sort of thing throughout my life but for some reason right now i am reacting like this. maybe it's the level of magnitude. anyway, i am surprised at myself, too. i'm sorry. i don't know why i got so uncontrollably angry. i think i need to release it in a safe way and where it's ok to do so. maybe similate writing letters to abusers on the computer.
Alesta, I'm sorry you find yourself in such a pickle. And I wish that I could offer you more than my words, but that is all I have to give to you, just now.
I'm glad that you're angry, because it gives you the stimulation that can allow you to make changes. Your first post was an enquiry with respect to developing tolerance, and that is a wonderful motive. Energy + motive = opportunity.
Anger is a response to an internal state, and you've successfully identified some triggers. The trick, I think, is to recognize the sequential activation that ends up being identified as anger. It takes time, although that time might seem instantaneous. The mind can learn to observe the sequence itself, and in doing so, time is captured as an experience. The mere act of observing the sequence permits choices to be made. Adaptive choices.
A bit about adaptivity. One of the characteristics that links behaviours to personality disorders is an attribute we assign as being maladaptive. It's about as close as we can manage in describing behaviours critically, without being judgmental. If a behaviour didn't improve the situation, then it's maladaptive. This negative focus, though, keeps us from considering adaptive behaviours. I sense that's what you're asking about. What would be an adaptive behaviour? One which utilizes the activation that you feel from being e.g. humiliated?
I'm going to project a bit, and suggest that Glydin touched on this as well....but frustration is something that interferes with adaptation. Minor annoyances are accumulative. Of course, so are major annoyances. Time again becomes a concern, as the timeliness of acting in an adaptive way is a modulator of the feeling of frustration. Frustration most certainly contributes to anger.
You're absolutely on the money when you speak of seeking release from frustration. That will help you to clear your cognitive world, and perhaps permit you the opportunity to seize time during the sequence from humiliation to anger. It takes practise. It takes even the recognition that the act of seizing time is possible. It is. It's an act of mindfulness. It's observation of self.
Alesta, I'm glad you're at this threshold. Because you can do this. You can make it happen.
Lar
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 10:36:00
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:50:01
My point has been made?
I made on post with very few words, and then finally snapped.
I see *one* apology, not numerous ones.
I don't think hurt is the right word.. i work *so* hard to break down stigma around PD, on top of my normal job. I work hard to improve treatment for people with a PD. I put my money where my mouth is and not just sit back and complain.
have I been hurt by friends? Sure I have.. I had one friend try to seriously mess my life up and cause me enormous amounts of grief.. But do I come posting about all blonde women being manipulators? nope. I have many friends with a PD, and yeah, I've had to walk away from a few of those.. just like I have had to walk away from other friendships.. People with bi-polar, people with schizophrenia.
In my eyes it is NEVER acceptable to speak about *any* group of people, just because of a diagnoses.
is your diagnoses one of PD? Might you feel different if it was? No one has the right to say such things about me. No one.
Its fine to be angry.. Its fine for her to discuss her friend and what her friend is doing. It is not OK to call veryone with a diagnoses of a PD disgusting.. too many people believe that already, that we're all just manipulators.
Would everyone be accepting if she had made a statement about "all black people".. or "all jewish people"
No. But, its fine, because its PD people?
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:47:32
In reply to Re: alesta » one woman cine, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 10:36:00
"In my eyes it is NEVER acceptable to speak about *any* group of people, just because of a diagnoses."
You know, I have made this same statement and have advocated for the same thing. About stigma's and generalizations on this board and in real life.
I was somewhat hurt and shocked by your statement to me. & still kinda shocked by this post. I can see your angry. But I feel it's directed at me - I didn't do or say anything to you so I also feel it is not fair of you at all.
But it's OK, because people do snap - just like Alesta - I try to have compassion for everyone in moments of weakness and frustration.
I have seen numerous apologies from alesta. I can point them if you'd like.
But you never answered my question either - how many apologies will be enough?
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:48:00
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:47:32
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:53:21
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:47:32
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20070112/msgs/722857.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20070112/msgs/723149.html
here are the threads where I advcoate for the same exact things you are.
I would like an apology too.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 11:39:22
In reply to stigma's and apologies, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:53:21
In my eyes, and the way I have been taught, an apology doesn't contain excuses. It contains a statement that the person ccepts they have done wrong and for that they are sorry. It doesn't contain buts or why's.
I am sorry that I didn't make two seperate posts. Thats what I should have done. For that I apologise.
Nikki
Posted by Declan on January 31, 2007, at 15:34:30
In reply to Re: alesta » one woman cine, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 10:36:00
I don't want to annoy anyone, but I'm surprised you can take this all so seriously. If I was to say 'you are all heretics and should be burned at the stake' you wouldn't listen for a moment. These things come and go...heresy, neurasthenia, personality disorders. Still, I suppose we have to occupy ourselves somehow.
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 31, 2007, at 15:50:12
In reply to Heresy, posted by Declan on January 31, 2007, at 15:34:30
I laughed at your post, and wasn't offended. However when you are viewed with prejudice because of an arbitrary label and treated with absolute contempt because of it, it *is* serious.
I believe the labels rarely valid, and when they are they still ignore the particularly postive aspects that often accompany unique people.
AS you said, in many cases it's morality dressed up as science, but others do take them as gospel, and those who've been treated with contempt or had negative slants put on their every action because of a label, it's soul crushing, like being in a dream where you're trying to yell but no sound comes out.
This has happened to me, though the label was rescinded after my second psychiatric visit, it was on my file, and that's what nurses and Doctors focused on.My physical health was ignored, I had an infection for 2/5 years that could have killed me, because I was (not) "Self injuring and Attention seeking" The Dr who finally believed me found an infection in my jaw, he had to check for a brain abscess as it had been ignored for so long.
That's one example of why the generalization brings up a lot of pain, when it's a behaviour not a label that is ostensibly causing someone else anguish
Something Like this would get the point across.
"It hurts me when people try to manipulate me"
Posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2007, at 17:04:51
In reply to re; disparaging language,a gentle reminder » gardenergirl, posted by zazenduckie on January 31, 2007, at 8:26:09
I replied on Admin.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070123/msgs/728500.html
namaste
gg
Posted by Declan on January 31, 2007, at 17:11:50
In reply to Re: Heresy » Declan, posted by gabbi-2 on January 31, 2007, at 15:50:12
I know so little....NPD (of course) and then there's sociopaths...I think personality disorders came in recently? At this rate someone will tell me to read the relevant section of the DSMIV.
But what you experinced sounds like some dreadful ritual. You pay to be abused and humiliated.
People do throw these labels round as if they don't matter.....Mozart was a creative sociopath, that sort of thing.
Asking for help can be dangerous for your health.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2007, at 17:32:50
In reply to sorry...will go work on self..., posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
> I just wanted to say how sorry I am now that I've calmed down. I'm living in a mental war zone right now, and the rage and devastating put-downs and humiliations and hurts are starting to crush my soul...
I'm sorry you are going through that. I can imagine that the cumulative effect would be quite difficult to bear all the time.
> i just really think we are adults here...give us pbc's but the lecturing by deputies feels...i don't know.
I hate feeling lectured to, especially if it's something I already know. I'm sorry if it felt that way.
> sometimes there is just a lot of emotion that a person is experiencing, and needs to be left to come to things on their own.
I don't disagree with that. Though the behavior that comes out here may not necessarily be something that can be left to come out.
> what i'm saying is lecturing them on how they should *think* when they are *feeling* irrational possibly is not necessarily...
I went back and read what I wrote, and I don't understand. I don't see where I am telling anyone how they should think. What part are you referring to?
And to clarify, since I've seen reference to intent in other posts...I never questioned your intent in your original or subsequent posts, alesta. I even think I could understand to some extent what you were talking about. My PBC post was about the way things were said, not that you said it at all.
namaste
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2007, at 17:41:08
In reply to Re: sorry...will go work on self... » alesta, posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2007, at 17:32:50
I was trying to offer assistance and information so that those participating in this thread about an important though sensitive topic could do so within the site guidelines. It looks like I missed the mark. Sorry.
I have this pesky habit of offering advice or help when it's not been asked for. It probably comes from having to do a lot of caretaking as a child, but who wants to know that? So perhaps I misinterpreted what was in play here and used the wrong approach to try to help. It occurs to me that the appropriate use of "I-statements" has been well-covered elsewhere, so adding to that discussion wasn't very effective.
At any rate, thanks to those who helped me remember why I should work on that pesky habit. Though it may not be apparent all the time, trust that I will remember the lesson and will strive to modify my behavior accordingly.
Namasté
gg
Posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 20:25:09
In reply to apologies » one woman cine, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 11:39:22
> In my eyes, and the way I have been taught, an apology doesn't contain excuses. It contains a statement that the person ccepts they have done wrong and for that they are sorry. It doesn't contain buts or why's.
Nikki...I didn't put a "but" in my last apology...*only* why's...and there *is nothing wrong* with that. with giving people some information.
BTW, on occasion i have seen you be rude on this site, but i *never* jumped right in there like you did to me. if you want to judge me so harshly, perhaps you should prepare to be judged as well.
i have never heard you tell me when i've done something good. maybe you should try that instead of just telling me when you don't like something i've done. that would certainly be more...human...and compassionate...and approaching me differently might get you further than sarcasm.
when i see tumultuous threads...i try a peacekeeper attitude...it is the good and right thing to do...you don't fight fire with fire. it's unproductive and less...human. i'm rambling at this point but you are not perfect miss nikki. this i do know. so perhaps you might judge *me* a little less...amy
Posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 23:24:41
In reply to Tried to help with 'gentle reminder', posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2007, at 17:41:08
Just wanted people to know that i wasn't ignoring her numerous posts.
Also, there are a couple of posts that I skipped, as I need to pace myself so as to not become overwhelmed with all those posts...so if I haven't replied to someone who may have offered me support or kindness...that is why...some of the subject lines give no indication of the type of response I'm in for...and my stress levels were sky high before this thread began, so..you get the picture...I feel pretty numb at this point...just wishing things would get peaceful again, and that I could be forgiven. i am seriously losing sleep right now i'm so stressed from everything. maybe is should just post something else here to take my mind off all the bad stuff...
trying/hoping to move on from this,
Amy
Posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 23:34:45
In reply to Re: sorry...will go work on self... » alesta, posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2007, at 17:32:50
> > I just wanted to say how sorry I am now that I've calmed down. I'm living in a mental war zone right now, and the rage and devastating put-downs and humiliations and hurts are starting to crush my soul...
>
> I'm sorry you are going through that. I can imagine that the cumulative effect would be quite difficult to bear all the time.
>
> > i just really think we are adults here...give us pbc's but the lecturing by deputies feels...i don't know.
>
> I hate feeling lectured to, especially if it's something I already know. I'm sorry if it felt that way.
>
> > sometimes there is just a lot of emotion that a person is experiencing, and needs to be left to come to things on their own.
>
> I don't disagree with that. Though the behavior that comes out here may not necessarily be something that can be left to come out.
>
> > what i'm saying is lecturing them on how they should *think* when they are *feeling* irrational possibly is not necessarily...
>
> I went back and read what I wrote, and I don't understand. I don't see where I am telling anyone how they should think. What part are you referring to?
>
> And to clarify, since I've seen reference to intent in other posts...I never questioned your intent in your original or subsequent posts, alesta. I even think I could understand to some extent what you were talking about. My PBC post was about the way things were said, not that you said it at all.
>
> namaste
>
> ggthanks gg...i wanted to also reply on the board...i really appreciate your compassion for me right now. i concur with you on everything...too tired to clarify. we're on the same page, and i feel such gratitude that you reached out to me like that...i don't know why we've never talked much...but thanks beyond words for trying to reach me when i was in a sense 'fighting' you...such a loving approach that is utterly appreciated. someone here said their heart was full...that's how i feel...i don't want to nauseate ppl...but this is what it's all about...why we're here..on this planet..to learn and feel this..all right before people think i'm truly crazy i'd better sign off...anyway...thank you....
love,:)
amy
Posted by ClearSkies on February 1, 2007, at 8:42:08
In reply to Re: apologies » NikkiT2, posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 20:25:09
> BTW, on occasion i have seen you be rude on this site, but i *never* jumped right in there like you did to me. if you want to judge me so harshly, perhaps you should prepare to be judged as well.
>
> ... i'm rambling at this point but you are not perfect miss nikki. this i do know. so perhaps you might judge *me* a little less...
>
> amy
>
>
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action. If you wish, you can appeal this decision to him.
ClearSkies, acting as deputy for Dr Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2007, at 9:25:37
In reply to Re: apologies » NikkiT2, posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 20:25:09
I never said I was perfect.
I said I was, in a round a bout kind of way, *not* disgusting, or a manipulator. And I am not.
I read very few threads these days - I don't have the time or the pain levels to be able to do so. Generally, the only posts I reply to are those that are flagged up to me via babble mail, as this one was as the person knew that I fight *very* hard to remove stigma for people with personality disorders.
I am ~quite~ sure I have never called anyone disgusting here. I am quite sure I would have had many more blocks if I were so rude so often.
But its fine, as I said to a lovely, lovely person in a babble mail yesterday, I care very little for PB anymore and with my pain levels as they are, one less site for me to visit is probably a positive thing for me all in all.
Goodbye
Posted by Honore on February 1, 2007, at 10:30:04
In reply to Re: apologies » alesta, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2007, at 9:25:37
we can forgive and accept one another's mistakes and lapses--especially that come from pain.
I looked forward to getting to know alesta; and have often heard about Nikki, too, as someone very much worth knowing.
Perhaps in time you, Alesta, and you, Nikki, will be in less pain. I hope so.
Honore
Posted by alesta on February 1, 2007, at 13:16:05
In reply to Re: apologies » alesta, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2007, at 9:25:37
> I never said I was perfect.
i'm not saying you said that...but the fact that you expect others to be..not even accepting several apologies..even criticizing my apology...it makes me feel *very* judged. so i wanted to remind you that although i usually found you to be a nice person...you, too, have had your moments..which, i would hope if you had apologized for them, it would have been accepted...
>
> I said I was, in a round a bout kind of way, *not* disgusting, or a manipulator. And I am not.and I *apologized for saying that*....what else do you want me to say? you need to *communicate* it to me...if you would like me to say those words, i will...nikki, you are not disgusting or a manipulator. would you like me to say anything else? seriously...how do we bridge this gap?? i am trying to fix this.
> I read very few threads these days - I don't have the time or the pain levels to be able to do so. Generally, the only posts I reply to are those that are flagged up to me via babble mail, as this one was as the person knew that I fight *very* hard to remove stigma for people with personality disorders.
OK...
> I am ~quite~ sure I have never called anyone disgusting here. I am quite sure I would have had many more blocks if I were so rude so often.
who said i was rude so often or that you were rude so often? i was trying to let you know that you have had your moments here, too...many of us have...and to maybe be a bit more tolerant due to that...and no...you didn't call anyone disgusting...i don't think i did exactly that either, but anyway...of course your moments of rudeness aren't going to be the exact same.
>
> But its fine, as I said to a lovely, lovely person in a babble mail yesterday, I care very little for PB anymore and with my pain levels as they are, one less site for me to visit is probably a positive thing for me all in all.
>
> Goodbyei don't want that to be the outcome...i would like for us to try and work this out. i think it's possible...i would like to say what you need to hear if you will tell me. seriously. i am really trying here nikki. i don't want us to hate each other. maybe you could meet me halfway here...i don't respond well to endless attacks, though...and am trying to apologize for my original one...
amy
Posted by alesta on February 1, 2007, at 15:18:24
In reply to Re: apologies » NikkiT2, posted by alesta on February 1, 2007, at 13:16:05
i can't and don't want to force anyone to forgive me. i will stop trying to impose that on you. i'm just trying to make this place comfortable for both of us. but i guess at this point i might be trying too hard. perhaps you are not ready..i'll let it go.
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