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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 59 to 83 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by sleepygirl on January 5, 2006, at 21:37:40
In reply to Re: I read it differently » sleepygirl, posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 21:25:19
Multiple interpretations are almost always possible, but some individuals are indeed less than charitable, and would rather put a stamp on it and call it "done", because the countertransference can be so difficult to deal with, because we're all flawed maybe and needy and because of all the pain.
That is "there" and not "here" I mean, and so it propagates what is felt as an inherent badness possibly in the first place.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 21:59:11
In reply to Re: I read it differently » alexandra_k, posted by sleepygirl on January 5, 2006, at 21:37:40
> Multiple interpretations are almost always possible,
*always* possible methinks ;-)
and... there may be no further fact of the matter...
OR
internalising an interpretation could make it so (which is even worse because then it would mean that those who offer negative interpretation might be more likely to produce harm than help)> but some individuals are indeed less than charitable,
though *why* are they uncharitable?
a charitable interpretation of *why* might be...
that they don't appreciate the likely consequences of their interpretation (for their own thoughts / feelings / patterns of behaving)...> and would rather put a stamp on it and call it "done", because the countertransference can be so difficult to deal with, because we're all flawed maybe and needy and because of all the pain.
yeah... one should probably be charitable to therapists too ;-)
i think... it is because they don't appreciate the likely consequences of their interpretation.
sometimes... people are in the grip of a theory too, and they believe they have hit upon *the truth* or *the fact of the matter* regarding another persons intention...therapists are people too and they aren't perfect neither. and yeah, there is a lot of pain in the world. and yeah, i have already tried to describe (charitably i hope) *why* people might be feeling frustrated in response...
> That is "there" and not "here" I mean, and so it propagates what is felt as an inherent badness possibly in the first place.
yeah...
and people get worse :-(
and clinicians wonder why?????
that is why (IMO) some therapists can be terrific because they are able to grasp something of this...
and that is why (IMO) i have had some fairly terrible DBT therapists because they thought it was a purely verbal move and they didn't seem to appreciate the reasons *why* one should be charitable...
Posted by wildcard on January 5, 2006, at 22:43:34
In reply to Re: To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
>>I'm sorry.
>>i am not at all well
I hope you hang in there. Sometimes to take care of yourself you have to let go of trying to take care of others. I'm sorry this whole thing happened. I'll miss you.
Posted by Berberis on January 6, 2006, at 7:09:14
In reply to Re: To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
(((((Larry)))))
I value your participation on these boards. You've responded often to my posts (under a different name) and I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciated your *very helpful* replies.
Please, please, please come back at the end of your block.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 14:12:46
In reply to Re: I read it differently » JenStar, posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 21:01:55
one of the biggest learning curves I've had inb my new job, is realising that actually, yes, therapists DO think their clients are often being manipulative.. they often actually dislike their clients.
Just because Linehan wrote something in a book, doesn't make it 100% correct.
As someone with BPD. As someone who does alot of voluntary work with people with BPD. As someone who works in a paid manner with people with BPD..
We *do* manipulate. We are masters of manipulation.
Take an example of mine..
I was doing very very badly.. But I couldn't get the help I needed. The waiting lists were long, and it felt to me like I wasn't "ill" enough, or that no one believed I was ill enough, for the help I so desperately wanted and needed.
So, I got a knife and cut myself, on my hands and forearms. because I *knew* that they would be seen, and I thought that if I could show them I could cut myself, they would think I could do more, and thus give me treatment.Thats manipulative behaviour.
Every day at work I am told "if you don't make x happen, I will do y"..
So so often "friends" say "if you don't do x, I will do y, then you will feel bad".
What Linehan stresses is that therapists mustn't give in to the manipulation.. That if they do, it reinforces that the behaviour will get the end results desired. Positive reinforcement and all that.
Like I say, just my point of view to throw into the mix
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 14:18:57
In reply to Re: To Gabbi and alexandra » Larry Hoover, posted by Berberis on January 6, 2006, at 7:09:14
I know you never believe me, but you remind me SO much of me when I was in the first half of my twenties.
but.. wiuth regard to your "mini overdoses" (as I always called mine).
I always took just enough to make me sick, a little ill, or sleep.
It took ALOT of hard work to get to this point in my recovery. ALOT of hard work.
And now? Now I have a stomach that is screwed up and I feel neauseas about 80% of the time. If I get hungry I start retching. If I get full I start retching.
My colon in screwed. I have almost constant gut pain. I switch from constipation to diarhea and back again. I have constant lower back pain from it.
My liver function is getting pretty ropey. I get aches from that and really can't risk drinking alcohol too much.
My kidneys are also pretty unhappy. I have what feels like a constant kidney infection.All of that has been caused by my "mini overdoses". So while you think you're doing little damage, you're not. When you get to 30 and think your life is finally sorting itself out, please don't face these physical battles that I am.
Please. Please listen to us. Theres alot of us here who have been there, done that.
Nikki
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:31:21
In reply to Just my POV, posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 14:12:46
Hey there. Thanks for joining in :-)
> one of the biggest learning curves I've had inb my new job, is realising that actually, yes, therapists DO think their clients are often being manipulative.. they often actually dislike their clients.
Yeah. And if they think that... Then... How much are they helping as opposed to hurting? I mean... Nobodies perfect... And my understanding is that talking through some of those feelings and trying to understand things from a non-judgemental pov (where it is possible to like the client) is one of the important functions of peer support. Liking the client... Has been found to be correlated with helping the client...
I know that what you say is true. And that is why (IMO) therapists can be more likely to harm than to help... And that is why... I couldn't work with the majority of people I saw. Becauase... They didn't like me. They judged me. And they DIDN'T EVEN TRY to be charitable to me.
> Just because Linehan wrote something in a book, doesn't make it 100% correct.You mean just because Linehan wrote something in a book about how clinicians *should* view it doesn't mean that they think they should do it that way or that they are able to do it that way all the time?
I would say...
That is the difference between giving 'verbal assent' to her theory and censoring what you have to say in front of others...
And really understanding *why* it is important to do this. Because if you don't like the client they are surely going to notice. If you judge the clients intentions negatively then they are surely going to notice... And I think... That really isn't going to help them. Or you either. I mean... Burnout and all...
> As someone with BPD. As someone who does alot of voluntary work with people with BPD. As someone who works in a paid manner with people with BPD..
> We *do* manipulate. We are masters of manipulation.Linehan talks about how consumers come to internalise that way of seeing themselves because they are told it *that many* times.
What is hard with the 'manipulation' example is that everybody manipulated (no judgement) to a certain extent. Thats why she tries to reclaim the word by talking about how everybody does this and by talking about how people with BPD need to learn to get BETTER at manipulating others / their environments.
It is the judgement that is crucial...
But generally speaking... To call someone manipulative is to make a negative judgement about their intentions (malevolent intent).
So...
> Take an example of mine..
> I was doing very very badly.. But I couldn't get the help I needed. The waiting lists were long, and it felt to me like I wasn't "ill" enough, or that no one believed I was ill enough, for the help I so desperately wanted and needed.
> So, I got a knife and cut myself, on my hands and forearms. because I *knew* that they would be seen, and I thought that if I could show them I could cut myself, they would think I could do more, and thus give me treatment.
> Thats manipulative behaviour.That is one way of looking at it...
Another way of looking at it is that you did what you thought you needed to do to get better. I did similarly... I don't view it as manipulation (or if I do I don't judge myself negatively for it) because the fact is that is what i needed to do in order to get a little help in this f*cking crazy making mental health system.There may well have been more appropriate ways to go about that (ways that did not have to result in harming myself)... But the fact is that I needed a little help in order to learn more appropriate ways of getting a little help...
Ah... One of the paradoxes of BPD...
> What Linehan stresses is that therapists mustn't give in to the manipulation..
I bet she does not say it like that...
Maybe a verbal difference...
But I think it expresses a different 'world view' if you like of people with BPD...> That if they do, it reinforces that the behaviour will get the end results desired.
She also talks about how there need to be alternatives...
The client needs to know the alternatives...
The client needs to be cheerleaded and coaxed and cajoled and manipulated (if you like) along to have a go at those alternatives...And...
When you fail to reinforce a behaviour that has been reinforced before... Typically behaviour escalates before extinguishing. When you are talking SI or suicidal behaviours failing to reinforce... Can amount to playing chicken... Can be fairly risky...
What you need is alternative behaviours to reinforce...
So the focus is on that rather than on 'punishing' of behaviours that are unhelpful.
> Like I say, just my point of view to throw into the mix
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:34:44
In reply to Deneb - please read, posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 14:18:57
because...
this thread was about being too afraid to get help...
and i'm not sure that it turned out to be supportive of helping Deneb deal with the fear in order to seek help appropriately...
sigh.
i only just got that...
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 5, 2006, at 16:11:05
You took the bullet for the rest of us again.
And this is why you don't see as much of me. I just can't take the constant "I took too much of this" or "what if I...." or "have you ever thought of jumping....."
The cliff one really, really got to me. My best friends sister jumped off a cliff.
IT'S NOT FUNNY, AND IT'S NOT FUN TO SPECULATE ABOUT IT!
Thanks again Larry
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:52:22
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 5, 2006, at 16:11:05
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:59:21
In reply to THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
> You took the bullet for the rest of us again.
unbelievable...
is it really too much to ask people not to post anything that could lead another person to feel hurt or accused or put down etc?
sorry people are feeling frustrated...
but IMO there is no excuse for lashing out at other people...
there is no excuse for judging them neither.
unbelievable...
i see why it is that sometimes i feel afraid about what people are thinking / feeling about me...
i feel sad sometimes :-(
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:13:57
In reply to THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
That is the reason a lot of people don't post as much. You are definitely not alone w/ how you feel. Unfortunately it seems that babblers can do 100x the amount of good and help others but that 1x they word something against the rules it completely outweighs any help they have given time and time again. I am not saying there should not be rules but sometimes IMO it seems they are way to harsh of a 'punishment' for the 'crime'~just a figure of speech.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:22:24
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:13:57
> Unfortunately it seems that babblers can do 100x the amount of good and help others but that 1x they word something against the rules it completely outweighs any help they have given time and time again.
I don't think it outweighs the help they have given. The help they have given still stands. The person may have benefited from it... It is still there in the archives for others to benefit from...
But that being said...
If therapists can't even manage to be civil (the majority of them in my experience)
Then what hope is there for consumers?
I feel sad :-(
It is not just a matter of wording.
It is not.
As someone who internalised wording such as that I know that it is not just a matter of words when you are on the receiving end.
:-(
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:06
In reply to Re: Just my POV » NikkiT2, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:31:21
In discussion with our lead therapist the other day, she said she has done some of her best work with clients she simply didn't like, and who often simply didn't like her. She said the energy caused by that often breaks more ground than a friendly therapeutic relationship.
And I'm afraid I really don't understand your theory around someone with BPD having to learn to manipulate <I>better</i>. Learn <I>different</i>, yes.. Learn how to do it in a much less damaging manner.
And the same for other damaging behaviours.. Reinforce the positive, safe behaviours, and not the bad, dangerous behaviours.Nikki
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:21
In reply to THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
not "the rest of us" definitely not the rest of us.
I understand that Larry meant well, and I understand the frustration, but if someone reached out to me and then told me helping me made them sick.. I'd be really hurt.
It hurt to read those words.
Maybe you think she deserves to hear it.
I think people were sure I deserved to hear similar things, but you know, I didn't.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:28:13
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:21
> I understand that Larry meant well, and I understand the frustration, but if someone reached out to me and then told me helping me made them sick.. I'd be really hurt.
yep.
> It hurt to read those words.
> Maybe you think she deserves to hear it.
> I think people were sure I deserved to hear similar things, but you know, I didn't.((((Gabbi))))
No, you didn't.
And neither did I.
And neither did Nikki.
Etc etc.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:31:02
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:21
yeah..
(((Alex)))
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:32:05
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:59:21
I feel sad a lot of the times now.
I can't go to social anymore. People - caring people - have tried and tried and tried to help.
Is it civil to keep talking about taking too many drugs? Is it civil to "wonder" about jumping off cliffs?
Not to me it isn't. I'm so sorry if I said anything that hurt you - I sure didn't mean to - but I'm really at the end of my rope here.
'nuff said. See ya around on the other boards.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:36:32
In reply to Re: Just my POV, posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:06
> In discussion with our lead therapist the other day, she said she has done some of her best work with clients she simply didn't like, and who often simply didn't like her.
I wonder what she means by her 'best work'?
Reduction in SI?You would need to operationalise and measure that...
Because to the best of my knowledge... The thought is that you are more likely to help people (have a positive influence in their life) if you actually like them. Or you don't actively dislike them at the very least.I don't know.
How many people over on the psychology board have felt helped by therapists who clearly didn't like them?Anybody?
> She said the energy caused by that often breaks more ground than a friendly therapeutic relationship.
Movement is possible without judgement...
Movement is possible even when you like your clients...
Linehan talks about movement...
Strategies for movement strategies for change
But IMO what would be missing if you didn't like someone is...
Acceptance.And for me...
That was what I really needed. To feel accepted and cared about and like the therapist was on MY side helping me figure out how to help my self. And believing in me when I could not.
> And I'm afraid I really don't understand your theory around someone with BPD having to learn to manipulate <I>better</i>.It all hangs on what you mean by 'manipulate'
(Is 'manipulate' a judgemental term or not?)> Learn <I>different</i>, yes.. Learn how to do it in a much less damaging manner.
Yes. That is learning how to manipulate better. Maximisation of manipulation, minimisation of harm...
> And the same for other damaging behaviours.. Reinforce the positive, safe behaviours, and not the bad, dangerous behaviours.
Absence of reinforcer...
Functions the same as
Presentation of a punisher...One does need to be careful.
Thats all I'm saying.
If you stop reinforcing someone and they don't have alternative behaviours that they are able to exhibit in order to obtain reinforcement...Then you are repeating the invalidating environment which was what was so problematic in the first place.
(gee I hope Linehan never reads my funny memory of her theory)
:-O
;-)
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:39:34
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » wildcard, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:22:24
I see what you are saying that the good they have done still stands but the block prevents them from doing further good and in fact can cause them harm. I do understand where Lar got frustrated and was considered uncivil. My point is that Lar was trying to help and he actually played a huge role in convincing the person to seek help. Not excusing what he said, I still feel that his block is a bit harsh when the good he does weighs against what was said. Now where all the therapist issues have come in I am confused but yes, I have been on the receiving end many times and I understand words hurt. However, 6 weeks is quite awhile when Lar stated himself that he in fact was not well. What about his well being? A PBC would have been IMO suitable as it was apparent he was trying desperately to help this person, not hurt them.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:43:57
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:32:05
> I feel sad a lot of the times now.
((((auntiemel))))
> I can't go to social anymore. People - caring people - have tried and tried and tried to help.
sorry... why can't you go to social?
> Is it civil to keep talking about taking too many drugs? Is it civil to "wonder" about jumping off cliffs?you do know that you don't have to read her posts - right? there is nothing whatsoever about people having to read all the posts on the board. i think we know... well i think we know that she does post those kinds of posts as times. if one is not in the space to read about those kinds of things... then don't.
it doesn't seem to be the posters who don't know her (and thus don't know to avoid what they may find triggering) who are having the greatest problem here. it seems to be the people who have read her posts for a while. who have put a lot of time and energy and effort into caring and trying to help. and i do understand that people feel frustrated sometimes. but when you find yourself feeling frustrated then that is the time to walk away. to stop reading. it doesn't have to be forever. but nobody should ever sacrifice their own mental health in order to help another. that strategy... will come back to bite you on the *ss every time. but it is true that finding the balance... can be an ongoing process.
> I'm so sorry if I said anything that hurt you - I sure didn't mean to - but I'm really at the end of my rope here.i think... you may need to stop reading those posts... read the posts of the posters who you can have some fun with. read the posts of the posters who you know will take care of you for a while.
((((auntiemel))))
i feel sad that there are hurts all round :-(
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:50:39
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:43:57
"> Is it civil to keep talking about taking too many drugs? Is it civil to "wonder" about jumping off cliffs?
you do know that you don't have to read her posts - right? there is nothing whatsoever about people having to read all the posts on the board. i think we know... well i think we know that she does post those kinds of posts as times. if one is not in the space to read about those kinds of things... then don't."
I don't read them. But this was in the subject line. Granted she wasn't the first to put it there, but it was the gist of the post in the first place.
I wouldn't have read this one if Lar hadn't been blocked.
Posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 17:56:26
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:32:05
In my time here, I've begun to learn who is who and recognize the personalities with the posters names. This situation is sucky. It's bothered me as a newcomer, so I can guess it bothers the established people more.
Deneb, if you're lurking, take care of yourself and come back.
Alexandra, thanks for caring and I'm sorry you're sad. But please stick around, I like you.
Larry, I'm sorry this happened, I hope you are strong enough right now to shrug it off. (in a positive way)
The others, Gabbi, Antie mel, the ones whose names I can't remember, (if I go back and look, I'll lose this post) thankyou for the support you've shown one or all of your friends.
I only feel qualified to pipe in because I stuck an extremely strong post right in the middle of this thread. This might not be a perfect place, but it is a good place.
Thank you for listening.
james k
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:58:43
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:39:34
> I see what you are saying that the good they have done still stands
thanks.
> but the block prevents them from doing further good
i think the block is INTENDED to prevent them from doing further harm IN THE SENSE of continuing to be uncivil. i think... that that is the intention of the block. to give the poster some time to think about what they said. to think about WHY what they said was considered uncivil. to give them a chance to think about alternative things they could have said. alternative things they could have done. that way... hopefully the person can learn something so that there won't be a repeat. i think... that is the intention of the block. prevention of posting also has the effect that they are prevented from posting helpful posts too. yes, it does. but i think that is a conseqence that isn't really intended although it is true that it is a consequence yes.
> and in fact can cause them harm.
i don't think that is intended either. and regarding the possible harm to the person who is blocked... the person gets blocked because of the possible harm to the person the incivility was directed towards. and the possible harm to other people who read the post. and to the possible harm to the community as a whole if those sorts of posts were acceptable to the forum.
> I still feel that his block is a bit harsh when the good he does weighs against what was said.
okay... lets suppose teh blocking system took into account how long people have been here and whether they tend to post helpful posts or not and how helpful their posts are etc etc.
if all that was taken into account...
do you think it would be possible (in practice) to have a system that was perceived as fair with fairly predictable consequences for saying certain sorts of things?
i think... it would be too hard.
and it would be mroe crazymaking for us in the long term.
there would be more 'you were lenient on him because he is your favourite' kind of stuff going on on the boards.i think...
the blocks / pbc's here are fairly much predictable.
sometimes i get a bit of a suprise...
but in the majority of times i am able to take the point.
i think they are fairly much predictable...
and i think that is good.> However, 6 weeks is quite awhile when Lar stated himself that he in fact was not well. What about his well being?
lets suppose i say 'i'm really not feeling very well but i also think you are a useless sack...'
(sorry - illustrative purposes...)
my point is that if people are given leniency for saying 'i really don't feel very well' then the prevalence of people saying 'i really don't feel very well' at the same time as saying incivilities would go up (as a matter of empirical fact)
then there would be problems around 'they are just saying that to avoid a block'
then there would be probelms around assessing whether they *really* are unwell or not...
so...
i think that system would get a little crazymaking as well...with respect to this block...
it has taken a few blocks for them to get up to the present length of 6 weeks.
how long was his last block for?
6 weeks?
i don't think this block is a doubling or tripling of his last block. that is my point there. *Usually* blocks are doubled or tripled for the next time...
the point that Larry's wasn't...
that shows leniency.
it does.
but there needs to be fairly predictible consequences...
for all of our sanity...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:03:17
In reply to to the Social Babblers » AuntieMel, posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 17:56:26
> In my time here, I've begun to learn who is who and recognize the personalities with the posters names.
that is impressive. it took me a looooooooong time to get a grip on that...
> Alexandra, thanks for caring and I'm sorry you're sad. But please stick around, I like you.
:-)
thank you
i feel better now :-)
this sort of thing... happens a bit...
not a lot... but a bit...
i don't like it when people are hurting :-(
but...
i do find a huge value in being able to talk these things through honestly.i wanted to say...
that your post wasn't inappropriate at all.
i have done similarly...
and other people here have as well...
and every now and then people talk about it.it can be hard to live with physical scars etc
i understand that :-(you are a good guy
i'm glad you are here:-)
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