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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:54:51
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 13:16:35
> I'm going to stamp my princess foot and say 'doesn't matter -- he should still OFFER to pick me up' .. it's up to me to decide whether I feel safe letting him come to my house. I want a guy who follows the dating protocol, I like the ritual, it makes me feel like a girl.
Tabitha,
I couldn't agree more. You deserve it. In case he just forgot to mention it, try to give him a chance to prove his chivalry. On a positive note, he might turn out to be a decent guy.If men want us to be feminine and sexy then they need to treat us as such.
I have a gay friend (who is always the feminine partner in the pair) and he demands to be treated accordingly. He tells me that no partner of his has ever refused!
Posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already » Tabitha, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:54:51
Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)I meant that as a question though, really.
I'm open to hearing different sides.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
In reply to Why should the man pay?, posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
> Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
>
> I meant that as a question though, really.
> I'm open to hearing different sides.
I could be opening up a can of worms, and this is strictly my opinion, which isn't carved in stone or in any way the only opinion that I feel is "right".Most of the time, when men (who aren't physically handicapped in some way) pursue women, they are ultimately looking for sex (every man I've asked who has been honest with me has admitted this). Women seem to be looking more for security, love, commitment, etc. than they are for sex (I'm excluding female sex-aholics who seem to be in the minority). The men enjoy the security, love and commitment, too, but that's not usually what they're originally seeking.
Could women be seeking these things because they are often not earning as much as men? If a woman makes more money than the average man is she still looking for these things, or does she then have a different perspective? Such as seeking companionship strictly for fun (sex and/or companionship).
The women who truly enjoy sex seem to be the ones who feel fulfilled in their lives, whether financially, career-wise or romantically.
Because men are usually the ones pursuing women for their ulterior motive, sex, I guess tradition has always had it that they are the ones who pay for trying. Even if they don't succeed, the women owes them nothing. A women agrees to have sex because she is ready and willing, even if it means waiting until the couple is married. Some men seem to enjoy the pursuit. Others resent being financially responsible for a date, even if they, too, are seeking sex, maybe because many women do have a higher earning capacity then they used to?
Not all are tending children at home and 100% dependent on their husband's salary, or earning $8.00 an hour as a receptionist. Is this where many men would still like us ALL to be? Thankfully, I don't think so.The modern men of today have learned to share responsibilities at home and come to grips with the fact that their wife may earn the same or more than they do.
Should a man such as this be expected to pay for a date when he has asked her out? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with earning power, and everything to do with desire. He or she who desires will do what it takes to accomplish his mission. That goes for females, too.If I were single and extremely interested in a man who showed little interest in me I would try to appear as enticing as possible subtly. If that didn't work, I might send a friendly e-mail asking if he had seen such and such movie and would he like to come? If he said yes, I would glady pay for his ticket, too, although if he offered to pay for mine, I would see that as a sign that he wanted to "take care of me". I don't know if this is bad, but I certainly would enjoy it! The kiss afterwards would all depend on the chemistry during the date.
Posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 17:34:23
In reply to Re: Why should the man pay? » gabbix2, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
Very interesting, you brought up some really good points. I'm going to be chewing on those for a while.
Thanks, especially for understanding that It was a real question not a pronouncemnt.
Posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:05:46
In reply to Re: sad truth is.. » kara lynne, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:49:35
>> it says a lot about a man's character if they can't even pick up a tab with a wine or two or glass of water on it!
I'm not sure it says a lot about a man's character, but, in our culture, it could be saying a lot about what the date means to him, what his intentions are, etc. Ie, in our culture, I think it is widely expected that men who are "wooing" women do carry the burden of asking, paying, being chivalrous, etc. A man who doesn't engage in at least some of these behaviors probably isn't conveying a lot of motivation.
But I don't think it says much about character, per se. And the conventions we have around dating are kind of rigid, if you think about it.
The point, though is that you are someone who wants that kind of traditional approach. So if you know what you want, that can help you go out and seek it!
Posted by Greg on April 2, 2003, at 18:06:05
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already, posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 0:12:36
Hi Tabitha,
It's been a long time since I asked anyone out on a date, except for my wife, and I always pick her up :). I believe in the old dating rituals. If a guy asks a girl out to the movies, he should pick her up, pay for the movie, the popcorn, candy, and soda, and respect the lady enough to look carefully for that sign whether or not she wants that kiss goodnight. But that's me, I'm very old-fashioned. If the girl asks the guy, then it should work the other way around.
I think it's very cool that you want to be treated this way, and there's nothing wrong with it at all. I say you ask him why he didn't mention picking you up. It may be that he just didn't want to make you uncomfortable. I hope it all works out just the way you want and you have a great time!
Greg
Posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not » Tabitha, posted by Greg on April 2, 2003, at 18:06:05
Truth is, we're programmed this way--it is part of the mating rituals to see men who can provide security as attractive potential mates. Have you ever seen the Bower birds on nature shows? The males build these elaborate "homes" out of twigs and leaves, and decorate them beautifully. They are architecturaly beautiful. Some of them stage a whole scene of a beautiful shelter adorned at the entrances with "jewels"--colorful and shiny objects, like stones and fruits, etc. I don't think they actually end up using the bowers that were build for purposes of alluring the female--it is just something to show their prowess at providing!
So I think that we might find chivalry attractive, because we are built to do so. However, we're not birds--we've evolved brains that have more complex ways of looking at things, so we don't have to necessarily be enslaved to our evolutionary "scripts"--we have the choice. But it could account, at least in part, for what attracts us, at least initially.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 18:35:53
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
I pursued my husband like a hungry cheetah after a gazelle. And he loved it. :) In fact that's how I got him. He probably wouldn't have noticed me romantically if I hadn't noticed him first.
And since we were classmates, there wasn't a lot of chivalry involved. (grin) You just can't muster chivalry or girliness for that matter when you've been competing for grades for a while.
But Noa's right. If you know an old fashioned chivalrous guy is what you want, you are perfectly justified in preferring not to date the other sort. I still think it's worth a clarifying question though.
Posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 18:58:49
In reply to Re: I always knew I wasn't a woman., posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 18:35:53
"I pursued my husband like a hungry cheetah after a gazelle. "
I think it's cool that you did that, Dinah. See, I wish I had the confidence to. So maybe I'm asking the guy for something I'm lacking in-- could be part of it, as well as upbringing, cultural conditioning, yadda yadda yadda. But look at you--you got your gazelle (oh, I do hate that image though!).
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
In reply to Re: I always knew I wasn't a woman., posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 18:58:49
I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to do it with someone I didn't know. We were friendly rivals before I decided he was just about everything I wanted in a guy.
Of course, I don't know. I was a completely different person in tenth and twelth grades (and part of my freshman year of college). Flirtatious and somewhat outgoing. Giddy happy. Filled with the fresh confidence of burgeoning womanhood (and with brand new breasts). All my dates and date offers (except my husband's continuing dates of course) came from that period. There must be something attractive about confidence and happiness. Then I turned back into a pumpkin, but my husband still loved me anyway. I think he hasn't totally forgotten that happy flirtatious girl.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 19:16:42
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
Dinah,
I think it's that memory of who I was when he first knew me that keeps my husband committed to me.
That song "Unwell" rings true for me a bit.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:46:08
In reply to Why should the man pay?, posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
I agree, but then I'm an old feminist. I always ask (most agreeably) if I can contribute. Then it's not like 50-50 (tho my 'contribution' may well be 50%), and it seems to diffuse any tension that might have occurred. If someone says no (and no man has ever said no), then next time it's my treat. I also offer to leave the tip if it looks like 'contributing' isn't gonna fly.
I have more fights with my goilfriends about this issue than I ever did with fellas. 8-D
Shar
> Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
>
> I meant that as a question though, really.
> I'm open to hearing different sides.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:51:33
In reply to Re: Why should the man pay? » gabbix2, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
OK, I agree with part of this, too. If a man asks someone out, then the expectation is that he'll pay. Just like if he asked her to the opera or something, he'd provide the tickets. But, it works both ways (or should, in my opinion).
If it's a hey, let's get together thing, then splitting things up makes sense. And I still believe that if the guy pays for the first time out, I pay for the second.
Moreover, I always felt that by paying my share, I was making a statement (even if only to myself) that I was not obligated to put out. Plus, I wouldn't put out for dinner; it'd have to be something big, like a new car. :)
Shar
> > Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> > I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
> >
> > I meant that as a question though, really.
> > I'm open to hearing different sides.
>
>
> I could be opening up a can of worms, and this is strictly my opinion, which isn't carved in stone or in any way the only opinion that I feel is "right".
>
> Most of the time, when men (who aren't physically handicapped in some way) pursue women, they are ultimately looking for sex (every man I've asked who has been honest with me has admitted this). Women seem to be looking more for security, love, commitment, etc. than they are for sex (I'm excluding female sex-aholics who seem to be in the minority). The men enjoy the security, love and commitment, too, but that's not usually what they're originally seeking.
>
> Could women be seeking these things because they are often not earning as much as men? If a woman makes more money than the average man is she still looking for these things, or does she then have a different perspective? Such as seeking companionship strictly for fun (sex and/or companionship).
>
> The women who truly enjoy sex seem to be the ones who feel fulfilled in their lives, whether financially, career-wise or romantically.
>
> Because men are usually the ones pursuing women for their ulterior motive, sex, I guess tradition has always had it that they are the ones who pay for trying. Even if they don't succeed, the women owes them nothing. A women agrees to have sex because she is ready and willing, even if it means waiting until the couple is married. Some men seem to enjoy the pursuit. Others resent being financially responsible for a date, even if they, too, are seeking sex, maybe because many women do have a higher earning capacity then they used to?
> Not all are tending children at home and 100% dependent on their husband's salary, or earning $8.00 an hour as a receptionist. Is this where many men would still like us ALL to be? Thankfully, I don't think so.
>
> The modern men of today have learned to share responsibilities at home and come to grips with the fact that their wife may earn the same or more than they do.
> Should a man such as this be expected to pay for a date when he has asked her out? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with earning power, and everything to do with desire. He or she who desires will do what it takes to accomplish his mission. That goes for females, too.
>
> If I were single and extremely interested in a man who showed little interest in me I would try to appear as enticing as possible subtly. If that didn't work, I might send a friendly e-mail asking if he had seen such and such movie and would he like to come? If he said yes, I would glady pay for his ticket, too, although if he offered to pay for mine, I would see that as a sign that he wanted to "take care of me". I don't know if this is bad, but I certainly would enjoy it! The kiss afterwards would all depend on the chemistry during the date.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:56:22
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
>
> So I think that we might find chivalry attractiveI agree wholeheartedly. It comes down to, what is chivalry? Paying for a meal or movie tickets may be custom, but chivalry has to do with respectful behavior (note I did not say respect, which may or may not accompany respectful behavior), imo. And, respectful behavior goes for women, too, IMO.
Feministly yours,
Shar
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:28:46
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
Just like in the movies, the rivalry turns to love.. I wish that could happen to me.
For me a friend or a friendly rival has never turned into anything else.
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:39:42
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:56:22
it's not the money, it's the dance step. I used to insist on paying half, and I think guys got the message I didn't really want them to court me. So I tried letting them pay, and discovered it makes me feel more vulnerable, and more romantic. I even let my male friends pay if they offer, I figure I'm doing them a favor to let them 'be the man' especially if they're older.
I asked men out before, and paid, but it just doesn't really feel right. It throws off the steps.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 1:09:56
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 19:16:42
Thank heavens for memories of happy times, better bodies, and prettier faces. That's probably what keeps love alive in a lot of marriages. And on my side too. Not that my husband looks worse now than in high school. Goodness no. You know how a lot of men age beautifully. Mine keeps getting better. But I think it keeps the love alive when I look in his eyes and see a reflection of a sort of blending of who I am now and who I was then, rather than a mirror of who I am now.
Posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 1:17:30
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » WorryGirl, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 1:09:56
Aw shucks, that's even more romantic. I've known women who found their mate in their 50s (my mom and another close friend come to mind) and they treasured pictures of their mate from his youth. They took pride in how beautiful he looked when young, even though they had only known the broken-in version.
Posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 1:17:30
discussed it all in therapy, came home and called the guy, asked if we could drive together or else he could pick me up.. he offered to pick me up.. we talked for some time, it was nice enough. he's a decent guy, another human being, maybe not my summer fling fantasy,, darn, but it all feels better now.
I'm embarrassed to be so worked up over all this.. first date since my long voluntary single phase.. it brings back all the bad memories, all the fears it will be the same disappointment and pain, anger, confusion, obsession, all that stuff. the whole mating thing is so difficult,,
Therapist also suggested a pick-up line for my gorgeous young video store clerk.. since I'm confused about whether he's really flirting or just being friendly.. she suggested I could say 'I wish I were ten years younger, I'd ask you out' see what he comes back with. I'll ponder whether I have the courage for that one. Yikes. Scary stuff.
Posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 2:46:30
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
Posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 5:17:19
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
Yup. Beardy knows best! : )>
(Just joking, of course.)
I'm bold, so I would just ask the clerk if he had a girlfriend. If he said no, I'd ask if he wanted one. If he said yes, I'd ask if he wanted a new one.
beardy : )>
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 11:01:53
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 1:17:30
Well, I don't want to give the impression that it's too romantic. When I look in his eyes I also see the reflection of some pretty ugly things. Of a person who will never be what he expects. I don't mean that in a bad way, exactly. He's a very competent person who holds himself and everyone else to very high standards. And I haven't a prayer of meeting those standards.
But as far as physical stuff goes, I don't think he realizes what I actually look like, thank heavens.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 11:03:12
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
That's good, Tabitha. At least you won't go into the date angry. Those therapists are good for something aren't they?
Posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 20:46:22
In reply to Re: on paying.., posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:39:42
Posted by gabbix2 on April 3, 2003, at 22:04:02
In reply to ok, different drummers and all that...8-D (nm) » Tabitha, posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 20:46:22
Yeah. Just have a good time however you like it. You deserve it Tabitha. Besides I've been screwed over by both types (weary chuckle)
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