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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by McPac on October 25, 2003, at 17:10:24
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG?, posted by Ron Jones on October 24, 2003, at 22:17:52
"Why do you think people with manic depression become violent?"
>>>>>>>>>> Ron....why do bipolars become violent? Because of high dopamine? Thanks!
Posted by Franz on October 25, 2003, at 22:04:40
In reply to Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG?, posted by DSCH on October 24, 2003, at 20:33:58
at what dose do you feel that?
I am interested because I try TMG from time to time
thanks
Posted by DSCH on October 25, 2003, at 22:36:13
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG? » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 25, 2003, at 22:04:40
> at what dose do you feel that?
> I am interested because I try TMG from time to time
> thanksHere is what I took yesterday:
Morning... (no breakfast, in a hurry to work)
1000 mg L-tyrosine
100 mg 5-HTP + ? vitamin B6 + ? vitamin C (no longer have that bottle around)
250 mg magnesium oxide
600 mg Ca + 200 IU vitamin D
400 IU vitamin E
75 mg grape seed extract OPCs
750 mg TMGand before my first meal, long delayed due to work to about 4:30 PM:
1000 mg L-tyrosine
100 mg 5-HTP + ? B6 + ? C
75 mg grape seed extract OPCs
750 mg TMGIn the evening I took:
1000 mg L-tyrosine
100 mg 5-HTP + ? B6 + ? C
250 mg magnesium oxide
600 mg Ca + 200 IU Vitamin D
75 mg grape seed extract OPCs
(No TMG this time... realized that it along with the fasting could have been why I was so short tempered and agitated)Today I took a total of 750 mg of TMG with a slightly different set (different 5-HTP brand and with my old multi back) split up into morning and evening doses of 375 mg (750 mg Source Naturals TMG tablets cut roughly in half). I felt some agitation in the morning, but not too bad and then a mild energy drop in the afternoon.
Here's tomorrow's plan:
Morning:
Solaray Iron Free Twice Daily Multi Energy, 1 capsule
1000 mg L-tyrosine
100 mg 5-HTP
75 mg grape seed extract OPCs
500 mg calcium carbonate + 1.5 mg boron gluconate
250 mg magnesium oxide
approx. 375 mg TMGAfternoon: as above, minus the calcium and magnesium
Evening: same as morning.
Comments on this regimen would be welcome.
The next changes I am considering are: adding more 5-HTP in the evening, bringing on some omega-3, and then adding lecithin/PS/PC.
Posted by McPac on October 26, 2003, at 11:52:44
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG? » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 25, 2003, at 22:36:13
I wish the NeuroResearch folks used tryptophan instead of 5htp in their products. It works so much better for so many folks.
Posted by Franz on October 26, 2003, at 13:58:24
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG? » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 25, 2003, at 22:36:13
Are you sure it is not the thyrosine? 3gm can be too much.
The dose of TMG does not seem too high but you could try a lower one. I don´t have any other idea.
300mg of 5HTP sounds like a high dose to me. But just from what I read, I am not a doctor. See www.mind-boosters.com or raysahelian.com (there is also a chapter on methyl donors)
Maybe just methyl donors are not for you. See: http://www.hriptc.org/binres.htm
Biochemical Factors In Behavior Disorders, ADHD and Mental Illness
The Pfeiffer Treatment Center has amassed a large database of biochemical information from more than 10,000 patients with mental health problems. Examination of this data shows that most of these persons have striking abnormalities in specific nutrients required for neurotransmitter production. The most common chemical imbalances we encounter include the following:
Over-Methylation
Many persons who suffer from anxiety and depression are over-methylated which results in excessive levels of dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. Typical symptoms include chemical and food sensitivities, underachievement, upper body pain, and an adverse reaction to serotonin-enhancing substances such as Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, St. John?s Wort, and SAMe. They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in folates, niacin, and Vitamin B-12, and biochemical treatment focuses on supplementation of these nutrients. These persons are also overloaded in copper and methionine and supplements of these nutrients must be strictly avoided.
Under-Methylation
Many patients with obsessive-compulsive tendencies, oppositional-defiant disorder, or seasonal depression are under-methylated which is associated with low serotonin levels. They generally exhibit seasonal allergies, perfectionism, competitiveness, and other distinctive symptoms and traits. They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in calcium, magnesium, methionine, and Vitamin B-6 with excessive levels of folic acid. These under-methylated persons may benefit nicely from Paxil, Zoloft, and other serotonin-enhancing medications, although nasty side effects are common. A more natural approach is to directly correct the underlying problem using methionine, calcium, magnesium, and B-6. SAMe, St. John?s Wort, Kava Kava, and inositol are also very useful in treating these individuals.
end quote-
I think I read someplace niacin captures methyl groups, but I am not sure.
Posted by DSCH on October 26, 2003, at 14:33:08
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG? » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 26, 2003, at 13:58:24
> Are you sure it is not the thyrosine? 3gm can be too much.
I have been using 3 g/day L-tyrosine + 300 mg/day 5-HTP for some time now. I am quite convinced it was a combination of fasting, stress, bringing on TMG at such a high dose, and going without my normal multivitamin that were the significantr contributing factors to what I experienced on Firday.
> The dose of TMG does not seem too high but you could try a lower one. I don´t have any other idea. [stuff regarding Mind Boosters and HRI/Pfeiffer TC]
I am very much aware of these sources, thank you. I fall mostly into what Dr. Pfeiffer found to be physical and psychological traits common to 'histadelic' or 'under-methylated' persons. http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/subtypes.htm
I will take the second half of the TMG pill this afternoon rather than in the evening. I didn't feel the need for sleep until 4 AM last night, so taking it later could be a problem. Otherwise I am sticking to the plan I set out ealier.
Posted by DSCH on October 26, 2003, at 14:50:41
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG? » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 26, 2003, at 13:58:24
> Under-Methylation
>
> Many patients with obsessive-compulsive tendencies, oppositional-defiant disorder, or seasonal depression are under-methylated which is associated with low serotonin levels. They generally exhibit seasonal allergies, perfectionism, competitiveness, and other distinctive symptoms and traits. They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in calcium, magnesium, methionine, and Vitamin B-6 with excessive levels of folic acid. These under-methylated persons may benefit nicely from Paxil, Zoloft, and other serotonin-enhancing medications, although nasty side effects are common. A more natural approach is to directly correct the underlying problem using methionine, calcium, magnesium, and B-6. SAMe, St. John?s Wort, Kava Kava, and inositol are also very useful in treating these individuals.I deviate from this in that Prozac and Paxil made me complacent and aggravated my inattentive symptoms. Inattention and pyschomotor retardation are my primary and consistent problems with mood problems being secondary and transient (i.e. dopamine and norepinepherine are more critical to me than serotonin I believe).
Posted by Dinah on October 26, 2003, at 17:27:20
In reply to TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic type » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 26, 2003, at 14:33:08
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 9:37:19
In reply to Under-Methylation » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 26, 2003, at 14:50:41
Thanks to Blake Graham for providing me with this diagram.
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/meth-fig1.jpg
TMG is also known as anhydrous betaine or simply betaine. As you can see it should open up another path for homocysteine to be converted into methionine that is not rate limited by the enzyme methionine synthase (that's how I am interpreting this diagram).
Perhaps my earlier lack of response to TMG was due to a deficiency of magnesium, which is also implicated in ADD (by Healthnotes)(see the diagram: Mg plus ATP convert methionine to SAMe). I began supplementing with Mg before my latest TMG trial.
Healthnotes on Mg...
http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Supp/Magnesium.htmBlake's website...
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/
Posted by Franz on October 27, 2003, at 10:00:40
In reply to TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic type » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 26, 2003, at 14:33:08
Sorry for the repeated links, you know I can´t follow this forum as I would like to.
I can relate to the 'under-methylated' type too (you see, we start to have something in common), but not entirely.
e.g. yes to
Social manner Quiet/Shy
Anxiety tendencies Outwardly calm, with internal anxietyBut
Many fillings
sometimes restless legsnever tried an SSRI and should take an antihistamine and see what happens.
I am interested in the chart, especially on the supplements recommended.I am trying DMAE now which is supposed to be problematic for 'under-methylated' types, have you tried it?.
I liked SAMe, but is is too expensive.
You mentioned lecithin in another post. I like it, you may want to give it a try sometime.
Regarding TMG, what do you mean with "activating"?. Is that a feeling of energy like one can get from coffee or ginseng or the nervous state you mentioned?.
I have TMG powder, the label reads 1/8 teaspoon equals 375mg. 1/8 tsp looks small. How do you meassure it?.
B vitamins ae good for me, if that means anything.
Are you on any medication?. I am taking a very low dose clonazepam at night and sometimes day, but it tens to be sedating. A supplement I like for sleep is valerian, it is relaxing and it feels nice, a bit better mood.
Thanks
Posted by Franz on October 27, 2003, at 10:26:00
In reply to TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic type » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 26, 2003, at 14:33:08
I forgot to mention this.
You say you have psychomotor retardation or inhibition?. I can´t remember now. Do you mean you feel action inhibited?.
How do you response to benzodiazepines?. Some days ago I was feeling bad, low mood, depressive and I took 1.5mg bromazepam. In a few moments I was cleaning the mess I had accumulated in weeks. So, the energy was there, only that I could not use it. Maybe it was my thinking and worrying and the benzo helped with that. It does not always work so good.
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:30:48
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic t » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 27, 2003, at 10:00:40
> I can relate to the 'under-methylated' type too (you see, we start to have something in common), but not entirely.
For me it breaks down like this...
Libido: High (big yes there, the worse I am the higher it goes, to the point where I can hardly think of anything else at times, it drops when I get better)
Allergies or sensitivities: Inhalant (yes as a child, now I believe I have some food ones too)
Social manner: Quiet/Shy (yes)Head and body hair: Sparse (wrong)
Anxiety tendencies: Outwardly calm, with internal anxiety (yes)
Nervous legs: No (correct)Obsessive compulsive: Yes, Obsessions but not compulsions (maybe)
Sleep deprivation: Yes (hypersomniac tendencies, didn't feel rested by long sleep)
Skin: Itchy and warm (yes, I have mild familial cold uticaria)
Pain tolerance: Poor (maybe)
Hair and skin: May be similar to or darker than other family members (correct)
Hyperactive tendencies: No (correct, but maybe not when I was a kid)
Frequent headaches: Yes (nope)
Body fat distribution: Normal (probably)
Salivary flow: High (maybe)
Ease in reaching orgasm: Relatively high (yep)
Frequent infections: Yes (nope, I am extremely healthy in this regard)Dental health: Good (yes, my dentists have always remarked on my hard enamel)
Appetite: Low (no, variable)
Memory: Poor (variable)
Fingers: Long (yes, and with nail white spots)
Reaction to anti-histamines: Positive (only take them for allergy attacks, chorpheniramine makes me drowsy, diphenhydramine makes me feel ill)
Mood response to SSRI anti-depressants: Positive (maybe, but they make me even more listless)
Dominant symptom when psychosis present: Delusional thinking & catatonia (maybe)> I am trying DMAE now which is supposed to be problematic for 'under-methylated' types, have you tried it?.
No. Interesting that it is not recommended by Pfeiffer while Sahelian refers to it as a methyl donor in the same class as TMG/DMG. I do not know why this is the case.
> I liked SAMe, but is is too expensive.
I tried it once back in 2000-2001 before I had a major crisis episode. Can't say how well it worked before I dropped it.
> You mentioned lecithin in another post. I like it, you may want to give it a try sometime.
I am thinking about it. GNC stocks an interesting product called PS 100 which has a bunch of the different phosphatidyl's.
> Regarding TMG, what do you mean with "activating"?. Is that a feeling of energy like one can get from coffee or ginseng or the nervous state you mentioned?.Yes.
> I have TMG powder, the label reads 1/8 teaspoon equals 375mg. 1/8 tsp looks small. How do you meassure it?.
Mine comes in 750 mg containing tablets that are quite large. I am presently cutting them roughly in half.
> B vitamins ae good for me, if that means anything.
They are good for everyone it seems. :-)
> Are you on any medication?. I am taking a very low dose clonazepam at night and sometimes day, but it tens to be sedating. A supplement I like for sleep is valerian, it is relaxing and it feels nice, a bit better mood.
No. What I have posted is EVERYTHING I take into my mouth with the exception of foods.
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:36:25
In reply to I forgot...inhibition » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 27, 2003, at 10:26:00
> I forgot to mention this.
>
> You say you have psychomotor retardation or inhibition?. I can´t remember now. Do you mean you feel action inhibited?Slowed down, made clumsy, some inhibition (mostly in speech). Heavy clumsy handwritting. All that has gotten better, though I am off the peak I had when I made my breakthrough in August. Part of it I believe was a degredation in proprioception. Extremities and joints did not feel "good/smooth" in movement.
> How do you response to benzodiazepines?. Some days ago I was feeling bad, low mood, depressive and I took 1.5mg bromazepam. In a few moments I was cleaning the mess I had accumulated in weeks. So, the energy was there, only that I could not use it. Maybe it was my thinking and worrying and the benzo helped with that. It does not always work so good.
My anxiety levels only go very high in short periods, so no, I have never taken a benzo.
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 19:58:23
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:30:48
IIRC when you are in a half-awake state your brain is generating theta waves. So it was I was musing while slowly waking from a nap this evening. This state has always been rather fertile time for the generation of ideas for me, I can remember one instance I solved a rather difficult homework problem from a graduate course the morning after with a theta-induced change of perspective.
Anyway, I was suddenly struck by the urge to put this methylation theory to the test. Although my sucesses to date appear to have centered around percursor loading (first with DLPA, then tyrosine, and presently tyrosine plus 5-HTP) I have felt my qualms about it as it would suggest my absorption, breakdown, and utilization of dietary proteins is poor, which I don't believe is really the case (shouldn't I have more somatic symptoms from that?).
My first and second trials with TMG were both done before I brought Mg supplementation on board. This might turn out to have been a key move in light of the information Graham has generously provided me with in the form of the diagram of methionine/homocystiene metabolism.
The whole business of last Friday reinforced my faith in broad spectrum supplementation of vitamins (i.e. its not enough for me to just take C and B6).
Therefore I am considering dropping tyrosine and 5-HTP for a while, and seeing if complete vitamin-mineral supplementation plus TMG is able to do the trick for me. If it does I consider it a victory for Pfeiffer and the proponents of methylation. ;-) If not I can always turn back to precursor loading.
Posted by jparsell82 on October 28, 2003, at 17:44:35
In reply to Thinking.... it's experiment time, posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 19:58:23
DSCH, your problems with ADD seem to be very similar to mine. I've also been trying everything to get myself fixed. As far as your aggravation thing you were talking about earlier in this thread. I was taking 5mg selegilene, 750mg DL-Phenylalanine, and 750 mg of TMG a day and I was getting the short fuse effects too where I get easily irritated and aggravated. Possibly a little too much dopamine? I've also had negative cognitive reactions to SSri's. Recently, I just tried(am on now) Xanax XR which really improved my attention with everything. I could read better and stay more focused on things. The downside being I have no social motivation... actually I don't have any desire to talk to people. I have some Jarrow TMG & Deprenyl I might try mixing in. I also have some Tryptophan & 5-HTP but I'm unsure about using because of my negative reaction to Ssri's. But I would like to see how it would mix. Anyways, let me know if you ever get a really good working combination.
Posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 22:21:26
In reply to Re: Thinking.... it's experiment time, posted by jparsell82 on October 28, 2003, at 17:44:35
Tonight is pretty good. Later afternoon and early evening I felt slightly stupid, but I am pinning that down on going to bed late, sleeping in late, and missing breakfast and morning supplements. I have had things improve steadily since dinner.
I took my missed morning pills with dinner, so I had a high TMG dose and I am not hot tempered. I will try 750 mg TMG tid tomorrow and see what happens. Oh, I got bromelain so if I do have a protein digestion issue I will have some assistance there.
I am cautiously optimistic about all this.
Posted by DSCH on October 30, 2003, at 17:49:57
In reply to Re: Thinking.... it's experiment time » jparsell82, posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 22:21:26
Posted by tealady on November 1, 2003, at 4:08:38
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:30:48
>Fingers: Long (yes, and with nail white spots)
DSCH, with me(and all family) the white spots indicate a lack of zinc. If I take some zinc, the white spots will disappear.
Not sure if applies to you,
Jan
Posted by DSCH on November 1, 2003, at 10:02:19
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » DSCH, posted by tealady on November 1, 2003, at 4:08:38
> >Fingers: Long (yes, and with nail white spots)
>
> DSCH, with me(and all family) the white spots indicate a lack of zinc. If I take some zinc, the white spots will disappear.
> Not sure if applies to you,
> JanYes, I am aware of that. My multi has zinc.
Posted by Francesco on November 4, 2003, at 3:42:49
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » tealady, posted by DSCH on November 1, 2003, at 10:02:19
I resemble more to the undermethylated. Thanks for the link
Posted by DSCH on November 4, 2003, at 6:17:31
In reply to Pfeiffer » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 4, 2003, at 3:42:49
> I resemble more to the undermethylated. Thanks for the link
How close of a fit to the spectrum is it in your case?
I am very happy with how the TMG is working now, which is to say it is very smooth. If you miss a dose it isn't the end of the world. :-) In other words you aren't tied so closely to a dosage schedule to keep everything going like I was with precursor loading via L-tyrosine and 5-HTP.
The trick to it is you need to make sure you are getting magnesium (and it should help to poke around and find a readily absorbed form like taurate or malate rather than the dirt-cheap, but stable as all-get-out oxide... see the magnesium threads floating around the alt. board at the moment) and probably your B3 as well. Mg is needed for the whole homocystiene-methionine-SAMe cycle to turnover. And taking TMG without B3 may lead to some serious irritability and temper issues like I experinced when I began the latest trial (I believe this is the case because I had stopped taking my multi because the 5-HTP formula had so much B6 in it and it is possible to chronic overdose, so I wasn't getting my other B's, and Larry pointed this possibility out).
I'm going to try out 750 mg tid for a few days, but it might be possible to go lower. I no longer notice an activating effect from individual doses anymore because the effect is there all the time. Fortunately it doesn't interfere with getting sleep.
My latest wrinkle is that I am taking lecithin and omega-3 now too. I may have gotten a subtle postive effect from starting that up last night but it could just be coincidence.
I will let things settle in for a few days and then I will try piracetam for the first time.
Posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 13:24:53
In reply to Pfeiffer » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 4, 2003, at 3:42:49
Haven't heard from you in a while. And I know things can change for you in a matter of days. ;-) How's it going?
Posted by Francesco on November 11, 2003, at 5:32:58
In reply to What's up? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 13:24:53
Hi DSCH, I have been trying to withdraw from Psychobabble ;-)
I'm taking L-Tyrosine (+multivitamin complex) some day while some day I'm taking only multivitamin. I have not yet decided if I like it or not. It helps a lot with energy, concentration, motivation but it lessens a bit my capacity to emphatize with people (and my sense of humour too). Anyway, it's not that bad. I can do more easily what I want if I don't care so much about people's feelings.
Tomorrow morning I asked about B6 but the herborist told me that the pure form is not OCT in Italy : o How much B6 would you suggest per day ?
On thursday I will purchase tryptophane and I'll try to add it to my regimen to see what happens.
In future I would like also to try EPA-DHA at proper doses. Ehm, another problem ... L-tyrosine makes me a little short-temper : /Bye !
Posted by joebob on November 11, 2003, at 9:29:26
In reply to TMG » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 4, 2003, at 6:17:31
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 10:20:05
In reply to can you post the instructions for making the tmg (nm) » DSCH, posted by joebob on November 11, 2003, at 9:29:26
LOL I don't make my own. :-) I buy mine from Vitamin Shoppe now, their own label (300 x 1000 mg!), reasonable price for that quantity. Before this, I had gotten Source Naturals (60 x 750 mg) from Wild Oats.
Basically, a health food or supplements store worth its salt should stock it. I imagine you could purchase it online from any number of vendors.
TMG is obtained from sugar beets.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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