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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 69. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:00:56
Friends,
For the past years, I have objected to types of posts that I consider to have the potential to be defaming to me or another poster.
There are more types of defamation than just the classic type of defamation called [per se] defamation.
Defamation [per se] has the defamation clearly visible and is already been determined to be defamatory on its face, like the following:
Such and such is a child-molester
Such and such is a convicted felon.
Now the above are defamatory on its face because lableing someone as a child molester could damage that person's reputation and cause him great harm, lets say, if he was a dentist.
The same with saying someone is a convicted felon, unless they are a convicted felon. And that can be discovered. The truth, in general is not defamatory, and a person's reputation must be of good report to claim defamation. Charles Manson and Adolf Hitler could not claim defamation.
But there are other types of defamation statements that are not per se.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:17:37
In reply to A short introduction on defamation, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:00:56
Friends,
Another form of statements that constitute defamation is the type of statement that is not visible on its face, but harms another anyway, and requiers evidence to show the harm. This is called [per quod] defamation. For instance, someone could call another person a pig-eater. Now a pig-eater is not a defamatory phrase on its face, but if the person called that was an orthodox rabbi, that could cause injury to him.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:40:59
In reply to A short introduction on defamation-QD, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:17:37
Friends,
Another form of defamation is statements that ridicule or hold a person in contempt that lowers their reputation in the community, or deminishes their esteem in the community or causes hostility to them by others in the community or excites adverse, or unpleaseant or derogatory or shamefull opinions against that person..
Examples could be:
It is his fault that the neighborhood has gone down.
If it wasn't for him, we would be better off.
It is best for the community that we get rid of him.
His type are not welcome here for they cause trouble.
He is a bacillus to the community amd must be eradicated.
and so on....
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:56:01
In reply to A short introduction on defamation-QD, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:17:37
Friends,
Another type of defamation is by innuendo, although some jurisdictions make this hard to prove, but not impossible.
Innuendo results when the person's name is not written, but it could be proven that a particular person was the person in the defamatory statement.
An example was in my state where a parent wrote into a newspaper that "a certain teacher was seeing his female students for sex at such and such a place". The inclusion of the location was proven to be where a teacher worked after school as a consultant for a business and was frequently seen at the establishment and the teacher sued and won a $20,000 judgement from the parent for defamation because of the inuendo and she did not identify the teacher in the article. Now if she had identified the teacher, then there would have been no inuendo, but then the teacher would have prevailed because the statement was false and damaged his reputation. In court, she produced no female students to claim that they had sex with the teacher. I have changed some facts about this case to protect the teacher.
Lou
Posted by paxvox on August 19, 2003, at 20:12:36
In reply to A short introduction on defamation-INDO, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:56:01
Lou, that's clearly some good stuff you've got going on there! I'm sure that, eventually, you will tell us what it means. But in the meanwhile, thanks for sharing your keen insight. You know, sometimes individuals become so calous that they do not even realize when they are being offensive to others. Thanks to kind folks like yourself,we may be better able to understand (and clarify) this sort of weakness in ourselves. Again,I offer you my best wishes, and I am glad to see you back posting. Oh, I was wondering if you might have had some time to answer (and perhaps clarify upon) my post to you. Things are, well, getting uncomfortable, if you know what I mean. Thanks for your continued support!
PAX
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 20:19:28
In reply to A short introduction on defamation-INDO, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:56:01
Friends,
Another type of defamation is the accusation of the person having a shamefull condition or loathem disease. Examples are:
He has AIDS
He has Herpes
He has smallpox
She has syphlis
He is a schizo
She is a manic-depressive
and so on...
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 20:26:22
In reply to Re: A short introduction on defamation-INDO, posted by paxvox on August 19, 2003, at 20:12:36
paxvox,
You wrote,[...some good stuff you got...eventually you will tell us what it means...].
Could you identify what the"stuff" is that you write that I have that is good? If you could, then I could respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2003, at 20:33:46
In reply to A short introduction on defamation-SHM, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 20:19:28
> Friends,
> Another type of defamation is the accusation of the person having a shamefull condition or loathem disease. Examples are:
> He has AIDS
> He has Herpes
> He has smallpox
> She has syphlis
> He is a schizo
> She is a manic-depressive
> and so on...
> LouLou, I understand how you might feel that way, but I don't think that any of those diseases are loathesome or shameful. Some of us here have some of these illnesses, and we've worked hard at eradicating the stigma attached to them.
It isn't shameful to have schizophrenia or manic depression, or for that matter aids or smallpox. It's sad and unfortunate, but I hope you don't think it's shameful or makes someone worthy of loathing.
I know how you feel about according everyone their dignity, so I feel confident that I must have misunderstood what you meant by this post. You don't need to reply, in fact, I feel so confident.
I just wanted to take the advocacy stance that is so important for me to take in these issues.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 20:42:27
In reply to Re: A short introduction on defamation-SHM, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2003, at 20:33:46
Dinah,
The post in question is about that those types of statements are defamation {if they are false}.
For ind]satance,if someone wrote into a newspaper that such cnd such has aids, and does not, it is defamatory.
Now there is a nother principle that renders a statement defamatory [even if it is true]. These are statement s that are cruel and made with malice such as ,"He is a bi-polar" or she has AIDS. Even if the person suffers from schizophrania, if the statement is made to hurt and is made with malice, it is defamatory.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2003, at 20:54:33
In reply to Lou's response to Dinah's post » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 20:42:27
Doesn't that assume that the underlying condition is something that was shameful? Otherwise why would anyone feel that defamation was being practiced. And I don't think it's at all shameful to have bi-polar or schizophrenia. The person would just be mistaken, not defaming. Now if the accusation included an untrue statement about someone having a disease, along with an implication that that disease made someone unfit to be someon'e friend, or unfit to lead, or something of the sort, a totally different sort of defamatory statement has occurred. A statement that defames everyone with the disease, not just the person accused.
There is a poster who often comes to the board and says I have schizoaffective disorder, or a thought disorder. And I will confess that I find it a bit distressing because it is untrue. And I think that it may possibly fall under the civilty guideline of jumping to conclusions about others, since I have never stated that I have any such disorder. But I don't think there is anything shameful or loathesome about the diseases themselves.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 21:10:30
In reply to Re: But..., posted by Dinah on August 19, 2003, at 20:54:33
Dinah,
The people that lable us are the one's that are wrong. I do not consider any illness to be loathem. That is a term 100's of years old still in the commom law.
Let us look at this example:
Let us say that there is a town meeting that I am at to prohibit motorcycles in the commuunity. I stand up and argue that the prohibition would be discriminatory and other unlawfull concepts. Another stands up and says," That guy is a manic-depressive.
Now this is the case that I tried to convey. His remark is defamatory, even though I am bipolar. his remark was malicious and made to defame me. I am not ashamed to have bi polar disorder.
Thank you for bringing this up. I try to write the best for the community but sometimes it is difficult.
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 19, 2003, at 21:18:40
In reply to Re: A short introduction on defamation-INDO, posted by paxvox on August 19, 2003, at 20:12:36
> I'm sure that, eventually, you will tell us what it means... You know, sometimes individuals become so calous that they do not even realize when they are being offensive to others. Thanks to kind folks like yourself,we may be better able to understand (and clarify) this sort of weakness in ourselves.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't be sarcastic or post anything that could lead others to feel put down. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2003, at 21:21:01
In reply to Thank you for bringing this up » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 21:10:30
Yes, I agree that the intent of that person in the town meeting was unkind. But I guess I have hopes for the world. I have hopes that a fair percent of the people would stand up and say "So what? What does that have to do with his opinion on motorcycles?"
Perhaps I'm an idealist.
I do know how hard it is to present my ideas in the way that I intend them. Thanks for the clarification. Although I did realize that you didn't intend any harm to anyone with those diagnoses. That wouldn't be at all like you.
Posted by Sabina on August 19, 2003, at 21:55:56
In reply to A short introduction on defamation-SHM, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 20:19:28
i had absolutely no intention to weigh-in on this protracted topic. however, i feel that a line has been crossed within the text of the preceding "introduction" from Lou.
concerning civility: i would like to go on record as feeling *extremely* hurt and put down by the implications of the preceding post and i request a retraction, and/or rephrasing, at least.
in fact, i do feel that it qualifies as uncivil by the terms of this board. i absolutely refute the notion that *any* of the conditions listed below are in any way shameful or loathesome.
as an individual living with bipolar disorder, i have to deal with enough social stigma and ignorant preconception in my everyday life, both personally and professionally.
i am both disappointed and offended to see manic depression described by such vivid, negative adjectives by another poster on this board.
in the end, that was indeed, and ironically, "another type of defamation".
> Friends,
> Another type of defamation is the accusation of the person having a shamefull condition or loathem disease. Examples are:
> He has AIDS
> He has Herpes
> He has smallpox
> She has syphlis
> He is a schizo
> She is a manic-depressive
> and so on...
> Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 22:07:53
In reply to I *am* a manic-depressive. shameful? loathesome? , posted by Sabina on August 19, 2003, at 21:55:56
Sabina,
Dinah just brought this up and I realise that for me to explaine things that sometimes it is diffficult for me to do so.
The point that I was trying to bring out is that people that address people like us that have these disorders in a way that brings out our affliction is a form of defamation in and of itself. I have bi- polar disorder and I am not considering it to be something that anyone can use to defame me. It is when others use that to defame people wuth these disorders, then that constitutes defamation for it is done with malice and intent to hurt.
I gave an example above about if I was in a town meeting to prohibit motorcycles from the community and I stood up and said that any such thing would be discriminatory and other unlawfull practices. Then I gave the example of a man standing up and saying, " that man has biploar disorder." That is an example of being defamed in regards to one saying such things. Dinah then wrote a concurrance. See the posts in front of your post.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by shar on August 19, 2003, at 22:49:41
In reply to A short introduction on defamation, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 19:00:56
Does this thread belong on admin? I'm confused.
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 19, 2003, at 22:57:01
In reply to Re: A short introduction on defamation--Dr. Bob, posted by shar on August 19, 2003, at 22:49:41
> Does this thread belong on admin?
Well, it has to do with what to consider civil, so I think it's OK here for now at least. Did you want to redirect it somewhere? :-)
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 8:59:54
In reply to Re: A short introduction on defamation--Dr. Bob, posted by Dr. Bob on August 19, 2003, at 22:57:01
Friends,
Another form of defamation is cruelty in the statement toward another. Now if someone said, "Your diction is atrocious", that appears to not be a defamatory statement. But if that person had a speech impediment from a neurological disorder, then the statement would be cruel and defaming.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 9:44:48
In reply to A short introduction on defamation--CRL, posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 8:59:54
Friends,
Another form of defamation is when a statement is designed to stigmatize another person. Some examples are:
Making a person have a particular identification or segregating them.
Disallowing a person equal accesss..
Lou
Posted by shar on August 20, 2003, at 11:18:52
In reply to Re: A short introduction on defamation--Dr. Bob, posted by Dr. Bob on August 19, 2003, at 22:57:01
Well, I wondered because it is very general. The posts aren't talking about Psycho Babble civility issues, but the nature of defamation in the opinion of one poster (and I'm not sure about the accuracy of the examples).
I suppose if people want to talk about "what is defamation" I'd see it belonging on social. If someone wants to say "this poster defamed me" I'd see it belonging here.
However, in the larger scale of the history of humanity, and the infinite future of the world, I suppose it really doesn't matter where it goes.
Shar
Posted by stjames on August 20, 2003, at 13:48:32
In reply to I *am* a manic-depressive. shameful? loathesome? , posted by Sabina on August 19, 2003, at 21:55:56
Another type of defamation is the accusation of the person having a shamefull condition or loathem disease.
So you are saying having AIDS is shamefull (sic) ?
Seems like a judgement to me.
Posted by PAXVOX on August 20, 2003, at 13:48:34
In reply to Re: please be civil » paxvox, posted by Dr. Bob on August 19, 2003, at 21:18:40
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 14:30:12
In reply to Re: I *am* a manic-depressive. shameful? loathesome? , posted by stjames on August 20, 2003, at 13:48:32
stjames,
In writing about what defamation is, historically, there were laws that punished people for making statements that caused others to be shunned or avoided. These laws were called "loathsome disease" statutes and originated way before AIDS and diagnostic psychiatry were ever known of.
So to use a statement to cause another to be shunned, the defamer would say that the other person has a "loathsome disease" so that others would aviod that person. They would say that the person had a sexually transmitted disease or leprosy or smallpox or the plague. This was carried to its extream in the middle ages where antisemitic people defamed the jews by saying that they spread the plague, or worse, that the plague was brought to Europe by the jews.
Also, to cause shunning of another back then, the defamer would say that the other person is "crazy". The inplication there is to make others aviod the person because "crazyness' was associated with violence and psychopathic murder and such.
So that is where the "loathsome disease" wording came from and it is still used in the language of law today. It is an anachronism.
Today, there are new ways for defamers to use the old method of saying something about another person in order to have others shunn or avoid them. They could say that the other person has AIDS, because they want that person shunned and some people will shunn a person with AIDS out of ignorance of the contagious aspect of the disease. If someone spread that a women has AIDS, she would be shunned by many men who wanted a sexual partner. The defamation occurs when the person defamed is defamed falsely, except in some jurisdictions that do not consider the truth as a defense if the defamation was made with malice to harm.
The "shamfull" aspect of this terminology referrs usually to sexually transmitted diseases back in the past when they were associated with adultery was considerd shamefull. Defaming a women by saying that she has syphilis, let's say in 1920, would cause that women great harm if it was not true.
Today, calling someone "crazy" could be defaming also for it is damageing to the reputation of people to be labled such for some people will shunn or aviod people that are called "crazy" by others, for many have fear of others that are labled "crazy". But today, that word has been replaced by "schizzo" and "manic-depressive and such. So it is defamation if someone calls you a manic-depressive ,without privlege, for they are really using the old mentality of trying to get others to shunn or aviod you. I am not saying that any of these situations are shamefull, for sexually transmitted diseases could be given to you by an unfaithfull spouse and AIDS can be gotten through a blood transfusion, notably Auther Ash and others.
The hypothetical example that I used about the town meeting about the proposed ban of motorcycles in the town is illistrative of such. And if that was to actually happen to me, I would consider the man's ststement as defamatory.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 20, 2003, at 15:03:11
In reply to Lou's response to stjame's post » stjames, posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 14:30:12
Are you trying to say that you feel you have been defamed on this site??
If so could you provide quotes to back this up.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 15:11:32
In reply to Are you saying?, posted by NikkiT2 on August 20, 2003, at 15:03:11
NikkiT2,
You wrote, "Are you saying that you feel you have been defamed on this site??"
Well, it depends. It depends on people's conception of what constitutes defamation. What would be the criteria that you would use to constitute defamation here? If you could list the criteria that you consider to be defaming, then I could respond accordingly.
Lou
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