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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 22:07:38
In reply to Re: Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 21:53:53
> I think valium is stronger as when started benzos librium did nothing but valium relaxed me more. Phillipa
Oh yeah, i for sure "feel" valium much more than librium, don't know if that's a good thing.
Although, taking these 2mg doses of xanax, i feel NOTHING, other than getting sick, and still getting interdose wd.
I do have the option to try the xanax xr, as i will receive a discount card.
Or I can just switch back over to valium and start a taper again.
Is me being off the benzos seeming to be the number one priority for my mental health right now?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 13:02:27
In reply to Re: Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 22:07:38
Hi Brian,
If you think Provigil might be making you worse, perhaps you should stop Provigil before changing any of your other meds.
I think a cross-taper to Valium over a couple of weeks would be sensible because they are quite different benzos and you don't want to make yourself feel any worse than you already do.
Unless you have a tendency to misuse benzos, I don't think that Librium has any particular advantages over Valium.
I think that you should stay on Trileptal for now, although perhaps you need to adjust the dose to benefit more. Aren't you getting any support from your doctor at the moment?
Ed
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 13:31:55
In reply to Re: Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 13:02:27
> Hi Brian,
>
> If you think Provigil might be making you worse, perhaps you should stop Provigil before changing any of your other meds.
>
> I think a cross-taper to Valium over a couple of weeks would be sensible because they are quite different benzos and you don't want to make yourself feel any worse than you already do.
>
> Unless you have a tendency to misuse benzos, I don't think that Librium has any particular advantages over Valium.
>
> I think that you should stay on Trileptal for now, although perhaps you need to adjust the dose to benefit more. Aren't you getting any support from your doctor at the moment?
>
> EdThanks Ed. My doc offers some support, but not great.
he does know that i want to cross over to valium
I am/have dropped provigil. Who needs it when my moring trileptal gives me hypomania and i drink a pot of coffee:)
Lyrica is helping with both mood and anxiety, and hopefully perhaps in the future, withdrawal.
Trieptal is at 600, although i think tomorrow I may go 300 tid.
Some mornings i stare at all of the drugs i have acumulated. I'll look at the zyprexa, and remember feeling somewhat normal on a high dose of it, with an AD, and added provigil. Times of holding jobs, and driving. Remembering being excited about being on depaote and zyprexa, and excited to add provigil to make me feel normal and productive. Seems those days are over. That my brain hates the drugs. But it seems that life is over, and that my only normalcy might to be off the drugs. We'll see.Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 15:08:02
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 19:19:24
Interesting, now my dr said he does not want me on the trileptal, although it obviously gets me to where i can function somewhat. he said to wait, wait, wait.
He just wants me on lyrica for a week, and to abruptly to switch from xanax to valium.
Said he will not work with me like this.
Should i find a new doc?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:25:03
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 15:08:02
Brian,
How do you know that Trileptal is causing your morning hypomania? That would be an unusual reaction. Perhaps the hypomania is not caused by the Trileptal. Although poorly researched, Trileptal would be expected to reduce manic symptoms.
>Said he will not work with me like this.
What does he mean by that?
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 16:41:13
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:25:03
> Brian,
>
> How do you know that Trileptal is causing your morning hypomania? That would be an unusual reaction. Perhaps the hypomania is not caused by the Trileptal. Although poorly researched, Trileptal would be expected to reduce manic symptoms.
>
> >Said he will not work with me like this.
>
> What does he mean by that?Trileptal has always induced morning hypomania for me. If I stop taking it, it would go away. And then like I mentioned, if I dose twice a day of trileptal, i hit a depression in the afternoon like now, then would typically hit a semi normalcy at night. I wonder about 3 doses a day.
Yes, bipolar drugs make me bipolar. Lamictal induces mixed moods in me. I could name numerous others. I have opposite reactions to all drugs, hence wanting off them. ADs make me depressed and more obsessional etc.
Perhaps I should just take the lyrica and the valium.
By not work with me like this, was after my ect, i asked for us to try trileptal, and he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax. Xanax alone, i can get nothing done in this world. I added some trileptal on my own account, and then of course with some hypomania, i can do some normal functioning, i can email, correspond with friends, apply for jobs etc. So he wouldn't work with me if i'm adding things on my own.
So i asked if we could raise trileptal from 600 to 900, maybe go 300 tid to see if it rids the mid day depression, and he was adimate about me not taking it.
Says just take the lyrica for a week, and be on the benzo.
Lyrica alone, i would not get swings, or hypomania, basically just high, happy, and stoned, but i could probably function.
So my dilema is to listen to him, and drop the trileptal, or go on my own accord, and up the trileptal to 900 tomorrow.
Trileptal in the past did help in benzo wd.
Trileptal was a drug that allowed me to read and concentrate in situations that are generally tough for me.
So choices, choices, choices.
I could just do the lyrica and valium, or have the trileptal in there.
What would you do?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:55:10
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 16:41:13
It sounds like Trileptal is destabilising you. I know you feel good in the morning but don't you end up feeling worse in the afternoon?
Perhaps Lyrica would help the benzo withdrawal, although I don't know whether the benefits of Lyrica will last. If you feel stoned on Lyrica the dose may be too high.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 17:01:03
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 16:41:13
>he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax.
What is the lowest dose of Xanax that you can take without suffering any major withdrawal symptoms?
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:25:29
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:55:10
> It sounds like Trileptal is destabilising you. I know you feel good in the morning but don't you end up feeling worse in the afternoon?
>
> Perhaps Lyrica would help the benzo withdrawal, although I don't know whether the benefits of Lyrica will last. If you feel stoned on Lyrica the dose may be too high.
>
>
>Oh how i love the trilepal mornings, lol, i drink a pot of coffee, and go crazy on facebook for 2 hours. Gives me personality and humor and life back that are lost.
LOL, yes, probably trileptal, and every other drug out there destabilizes me. But having some functioning in the morning was better than none at all.
It was trileptal in fact, that started this whole mess a year ago. Although i was doing things i enjoyed, like exercising, and going to a zen center (trileptal allowed me to concentrate and meditate), but in my hypomania, i was preparing to go teach overseas, which i probably wasn't prepared for. The day i was preparing my things to leave,, hypomanic in the morning, my mother and i went for a drive, then then came the afternoon depression and irritability and racing thoughts, and i was like, wow, this drug is causing my problems. That is when i dropped it, and was left in my benzo cold turkey, and had this brutal past year of benzo wd and psychosis.
Then again, approximately 3-4 years ago, i was having a horrible time with valium withdrawal while living and teaching in china. I was depressed, and could not leave the house. i read about trileptal being used to aid benzo wd, i tried it, and i could leave the house and go on excursions, depression lifing (maybe hypomania then), and it allowed me to taper much quicker than I was. i did not even visit a benzo forum for a month, in which i was a daily visitor. But then i think the stupid dr said i was ocd (which many in benzo wd are dxed) and did not need trileptal, made me drop it, and put me on an AD, which of course made me more depressed and irritable, and i had racing thoughts and derealization, although i could keep my job, and it helped tapering partially, but home and social life were a wreck. I needed zyprexa just for the flight home from china my anxiety so high from benzo wd. I think it was 2.5-5mgs of zyprexa then, now, i could pop 30mgs zyprexa like candy.
Ed I really did not have much against lyrica (one of the few drugs i can say that about). It actually allowed me to travel, golf, go out with friends, drive long distances, which i have issues with racing thoughts. But it makes me pretty happy and social, and even keel, no ups or downs. I believe at one time, that i still needed a stimulant to be able to conentrate. But that would have to come at a later time after benzo wd. I believe when i came off of it, it was just my body, mind, intuition telling me that it did not want these foreign chemicals in them. Yes, lyrica was a false sense of well being, which is for sure welcome now, especially if i'm embarking on another benzo taper. Lyrica was the 2nd most difficult drug i ever came off, after benzos, but then again, i think i cold turkeyed it at first, and then a quick taper, too fast.My doc at the time, who had dxed me bipolar, and had tried me on every drug under the sun, and my mind and body were just telling me this wasn't/isn't right, had me up to 900mgs lyrica, which is obviously over the max. She had also at one time had me at 30mgs zyprexa. Just insane amounts of drugs to slow me down.
So I could drop the trileptal, and just see how i go with the lyrica and the valium. Or I could dose it 3 times a day, and see if it helps w/ benzo wd again.
Sorry for the long redundant stories.
I love hearing your input.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:29:15
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 17:01:03
> >he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax.
>
> What is the lowest dose of Xanax that you can take without suffering any major withdrawal symptoms?That's hard for me to gauge at this time (especially after being in benzo cold turkey psychosis for months lol). With my 2mgs 3 times a day, i still get the interdose wds. I believe that the lyrica is helping the severity of the interdose wds.
Tomorrow I get the valium. Do you think I should try 20mgs 3x a day and see how it goes?
I can get the lyrica dose up pretty quick, as i tolerate it fine.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:38:53
In reply to thanks Ed, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:25:29
And when I did add the trileptal that helped me taper and with depression while in china, i believe it was a very low dose, maybe 150mgs 2 or 3 times a day, perhaps the reason the psych did not believe that it could be helping me at all.
I could try 150mgs 3x a day now, or just drop it all together.
Votes?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 19:11:55
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 17:01:03
> >he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax.
>
> What is the lowest dose of Xanax that you can take without suffering any major withdrawal symptoms?Ed, even a couple hours after my 2nd 2mg xanax dose, I am feeling the physical wd.
The worst part is thinking of all of the years or times when i wasn't taking benzos, or they weren't even part of my thinking, instead of ruining my life.
I wonder if 60mgs of valium will hold anything.
Brian
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2010, at 20:00:20
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 19:11:55
Brian after reading all this thread I feel you should listen to the doc. What did the zyprexa do as you do sound a bit manic to me? Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 20:15:48
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2010, at 20:00:20
> Brian after reading all this thread I feel you should listen to the doc. What did the zyprexa do as you do sound a bit manic to me? Phillipa
We did not try much zyprexa, but I think that zyprexa just maintained the same phenomenea but added a little depressive tint to it before the ECT.
We even tried clozapine/clozaril for a few days, can't remember if that was before or after the ECT.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 20:44:27
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2010, at 20:00:20
> Brian after reading all this thread I feel you should listen to the doc. What did the zyprexa do as you do sound a bit manic to me? Phillipa
Doesn't appear that we have tried an antipsychotic since the ECT.
He said he wants to do this methodically, cause he knows i like to change, up, lower, all the time.
So he said lyrica for a week, and we'll go from there.
I'm sure he might be open to the idea of an AP right now though.
But before ECT, geodon, zyprexa, clozaril was doing nothing for the benzo wd psychosis
Brian
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2010, at 20:47:13
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 20:44:27
Brian I don't know what to suggest? Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 21:03:06
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2010, at 20:47:13
> Brian I don't know what to suggest? Phillipa
I know, a tough situation hon:(
Let's see how the reaction to valium goes, let's hope that i get better with the increases in my lyrica, and I will ask/suggest to the dr maybe trying an AP.
That said, I am somewhat set on leaving for the mountains of california to work on an organic farm, away from civilization, computers, phones, doctors, and electricity, and do a withdrawal there, while being in nature with animals in the spiritual realm:)
I have also reached out to an integrative psychiatrist who actually teaches at the Zen center I attend. I hope he has something to offer. He is also on the board of neurology which is a big plus for me.
Love,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 21:54:30
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 17:01:03
But for a doc to tell you to give up a drug, because he said no no no before you started it, even though it's giving me some functionability, which is much more than none, just because he said so, that's a tough one. Yes, perhaps it does cause instability.
So now i just drop trileptal, even though i function greatly for 5 hours in the morning lol
brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 2, 2010, at 13:57:42
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 21:54:30
Hi Brian,
It seems to me that anything which helps you to stop taking benzos is going to be useful for you in the long term. You seem to suffer from a lot of side effects with them. In the long term, I think you would probably be better off without any benzos but you can't stop too quickly or else you will feel worse.
Why would Trileptal make you feel good in the morning and depressed in the afternoon? I don't really understand that.
I would start Valium at 10mg three times a day and then go from there. You will obviously need to adjust.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 2, 2010, at 14:02:52
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 21:54:30
Brian,
Are you on any medication for MS at the moment?
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 15:56:55
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 2, 2010, at 14:02:52
> Brian,
>
> Are you on any medication for MS at the moment?
>
>
Yes Ed, I take MS injections daily, oopaxone.Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:23:58
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 2, 2010, at 13:57:42
> Hi Brian,
>
> It seems to me that anything which helps you to stop taking benzos is going to be useful for you in the long term. You seem to suffer from a lot of side effects with them. In the long term, I think you would probably be better off without any benzos but you can't stop too quickly or else you will feel worse.
>
> Why would Trileptal make you feel good in the morning and depressed in the afternoon? I don't really understand that.
>
> I would start Valium at 10mg three times a day and then go from there. You will obviously need to adjust.Yes, getting off of the benzos was the goal over the past year, and now i am at double the starting dose of where i was a year ago, psychotic and crazy from it, even slow taper, the cold turkey, and the horror and terror of what i've experienced the past year that i see in intrusive images and thoughts all day is tormenting.
I just had to turn in my xanax to my dr, we discussed taking xanax xr, but ultimately went back to valium. He suggests 20mgs 3x a day. You think this is too high Ed? Being at double the starting dose from a year ago is very depressing. But i've been on 6mgs xanax for 2 weeks, wouldn't going to 30mgs valium cut in half my benzo intake?
Why trileptal makes me hypomanic in the morn, and the sort of depressed in the afternoon, and semi normal at night is beyond me. Perhaps 3 doses a day are better.
I DO know that trileptal has helped me wean off valium much quicker 2 times before, although trying to add it during my taper last year was terrible, as were adding all of the other anticonvulsants.
There are some studies. Some recent evidence in the literature suggests that the anti-convulsants Carbamazepine and its derivative oxcarbazepine show some potential in reducing benzo withdrawal severity. I'll refer you to the following studies:
Study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16189750&ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15510234&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=2021297&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)This also said, when i was i the serious throws of my benzo wd last summer, and i tried to add an anticonvulsant so i could leave the house, they almost gave me nervous breakdowns literally. Just some sights and sounds, just hearing specific words from adding these anti convulsants was horrifying. These were drugs that i used to swallow like candy, such as depakote etc. I would even try to add back trileptal in the throws of my wd, and i'd be hypomanic in the morn, looking at teaching jobs overseas, and then depressed in bed, and ultimately making my wd symptoms worse.
Lyrica does seem to help with some anxiety, and I don't mind increasing it, and would imagine that it will help both my mood and perhaps help with WD.
Although even with a high dose of lyrica, which allowed me to do many things i couldn't, i still needed a stimulant for any concentration.
Even with all of the other drugs, i had severe concentration problems, and always seemed to need a stimulant, or once thought provigil was god send.
That said, i think with benzo wd, stimulants are going to have to wait for now.
I can't imagine what my cns has been through for the past years with benzos and stimulants, and i can probably even trace back MS symptoms maybe 3-4 years back, which i thought at the time were benzo wd related.
I still wonder that if taking my valium and lyrica with me to the mountains of california, to work on an organic farm, in a place i have no history, and people i do not know. I could not imagine not having computer use, as i've been obsessional with it for many years lol.
Because here, i hear me telling stories to people all day long, of my past, mental health history, about the withdrawal etc.
What i say to people, will repeat in my head over and over, what others say, will usually repeat. Before ECT, i would just look at my phone, i would hear what i had just texted the past person, or i would just touch my phone, and i would hear what i was going to text someone. Some of this psychotic phenomenea has calmed since ect, and perhaps the readdition of benzos.This is why i wonder that getting away from people, phones, computers, places with history, might be the most therapeautic thing for me.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:33:34
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:23:58
I was trying to come off the drugs to be healthy and happy again lol. Not to become crazy and schizophrenic.
Before ECT, i literally could not even see the present moment. I could only see images from the past, and almost hearing future conversations at the same time. I could only see the past and hear/see the future. i would try to force myself to look at the tv, and try to watch it. Couldn't. Even going for drives in cars, i could still only see the past, and future conversations. I would try to focus on anything in the present, i could only hear myself reading license plates numbers, or hear me reading billboards. I could only hear my own voice. I could not think. The psychotic phonmenea would take hours to explain, not to mention my own voice talking about death and suicidie all day long, from the second i woke up, i would hear things about harming myself. Debates, arguments, intrusive images, thoughts, conversations, hearing my own voice, i could not even do simple things the intrusive everything was so bad, i couldn't do anything. I could only hear me talking to my doctors all day/night, explaining what i experience etc, it never ended.
Much has improved. Now, how to get back to completely normal, if that's at all posssible, i don't know.
What meds to take during this, i don't know.
I do know it's valium and lyrica for now. Trileptal seems to be my choice, and i'm not sure about it.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:45:09
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:33:34
I just sure wish i could get some more ECT, that has seemed to help reset or readjust my brain, but can't afford it damnit!!!
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 2, 2010, at 16:55:24
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:33:34
Hi Brian,
Do you get any support at home or do you live alone? It's difficult to even imagine what you must be going through at the moment.
Your meds have been changed so many times it's virtually impossible to know what the meds are actually doing. You seem to be suffering from a mixture of withdrawal symptoms between doses and side effects at the same time.... and then there's the further complication of the MS.
Diazepam has interesting pharmaco-kinetics. It is a drug which accumulates on repeated dosing due to the long duration of action of its major active metabolite.
After a single isolated dose of diazepam, its duration of action is normally quite short. After repeated doses, the effects last for many hours. 20mg three times a day should be OK initially but you should be able to reduce after a few days down to a much lower dose once it starts to accumulate. The lower the dose gets, the slower you will need to reduce. Hopefully, you will be able to get down to 30mg/day quite quickly. For example, you could take 20mg three times a day for three days then 15mg three times a day for five days then 10mg three times a day. From this point, you will need to reduce more slowly.
What do you think?
Ed
PS. It's difficult to be positive about mental healthcare in the UK but at least you wouldn't have to pay anything for the ECT. Most treatment is free here, except for small prescription charges (but many people have an exemption from charges).
> I was trying to come off the drugs to be healthy and happy again lol. Not to become crazy and schizophrenic.
>
> Before ECT, i literally could not even see the present moment. I could only see images from the past, and almost hearing future conversations at the same time. I could only see the past and hear/see the future. i would try to force myself to look at the tv, and try to watch it. Couldn't. Even going for drives in cars, i could still only see the past, and future conversations. I would try to focus on anything in the present, i could only hear myself reading license plates numbers, or hear me reading billboards. I could only hear my own voice. I could not think. The psychotic phonmenea would take hours to explain, not to mention my own voice talking about death and suicidie all day long, from the second i woke up, i would hear things about harming myself. Debates, arguments, intrusive images, thoughts, conversations, hearing my own voice, i could not even do simple things the intrusive everything was so bad, i couldn't do anything. I could only hear me talking to my doctors all day/night, explaining what i experience etc, it never ended.
>
> Much has improved. Now, how to get back to completely normal, if that's at all posssible, i don't know.
>
> What meds to take during this, i don't know.
>
> I do know it's valium and lyrica for now. Trileptal seems to be my choice, and i'm not sure about it.
>
> Brian
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