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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 97. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by morganpmiller on June 15, 2009, at 3:09:23
Anyone had ECT? I'm on the verge of admitting myself into Georgetown Psychiatric and I have a gut feeling they will recommend ECT. Also, I have seen a psychiatrist that is an ECT specialist and he said that I may benefit from it. I understand that there have been improvements even in the past few years. And I know about bilateral and unilateral. I just wanted to know if anyone here has experienced ECT. Thanks
Posted by linkadge on June 15, 2009, at 6:53:57
In reply to ECT, posted by morganpmiller on June 15, 2009, at 3:09:23
You have a shock doc. Get a second opinion from an individual who is trained in treating treatment resistent depression.
I am willing you havn't tried:
mirapex + nortriptyline + parnate?
Just one of the combinations that a skilled psychopharmacologist might recomend. What all have you tried?
This is your brain, you don't want to loose it to the excitotoxic mechanisms of electrically induced seizures.
Linkadge
Posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 8:51:56
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by linkadge on June 15, 2009, at 6:53:57
I'm also fairly sure that I want to go through with ECT. I haven't tried mirapex, parnate, or nortriptyline, but I have tried Lexapro, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Geodon, Seroquel, Abilify, and Lamictal.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on June 15, 2009, at 10:14:06
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 8:51:56
> I'm also fairly sure that I want to go through with ECT. I haven't tried mirapex, parnate, or nortriptyline, but I have tried Lexapro, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Geodon, Seroquel, Abilify, and Lamictal.
Why don't you try an MAOI before ECT?
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 10:34:49
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on June 15, 2009, at 10:14:06
I've seen it done not something I'd want a seizure. Phillipa
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on June 15, 2009, at 14:25:53
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 8:51:56
My pdoc has been pressing me for several years to either do ETC or Parnate. I had tried a short trial of Parnate many years ago and thought it had triggered my autoimmune stuff. I was just about to do the ETC when I decided to try the Parnate duo first. I am SO GLAD I did! My pdoc thinks a combo of Parnate and either nortriptyline or amytriptyline is "Magic". I chose amytriptyline because I have sleep problems, but since I get tired during the day I may change to nortriptyline.
I started the Parnate on May 4th and am now up to 50mg and think it is finally starting to kick in!! I am really thinking Parnate is going to work for me!
I am so glad I found this PsychoBabble forum. There are so many knowledgeable and helpful people here with such incredible amounts of experience. I have gotten a lot of help with Parnate and I'm not afraid of it or the diet or the dosage anymore, or to augment it if necessary.
I have read a lot of threads about ETC and am so glad I didn't do it.
Whatever your choice is, I wish you well. Being depressed is a B----. Gayle
Posted by bleauberry on June 15, 2009, at 16:24:43
In reply to ECT, posted by morganpmiller on June 15, 2009, at 3:09:23
I did ECT. 12 sessions bilateral.
Total Cost: $22,000.00
My Co-Pay: $6,000.00
Memory Loss: Had to use mapquest to get around my small town I've lived in for 15 years. 3 months of memory completely gone, 6 months very blurry, and scattered memories from years ago totally gone. I don't recognize faces of people who know me. This happens A LOT, 3 years later.
Cognitive Impact: Significant. Once a straight A student, now a slow fuzzy thinker.
Efficacy: Zero. No better, no worse, just a lot of damage.
Doctor's Comment on ECT: "The brain trauma is similar to what I saw from grenade blasts in Vietnam".
Clinical Studies: Good luck finding any that prove ECT is as good as your doc says it is. Even then, good luck in finding any information...anecdotal or clinical...that shows ECT responders did not relapse within a very short time. Clinical studies that have looked at this show almost universal relapse within weeks to months.
The hype on ECT is real good though. They make it sound so promising. I was suckered into that like many others. Not a single person among the half dozen of us getting ECT at the same time responded.
Medications: Almost all ECT responders still require heavy med combinations to stay well once they get well, and relapse still happens regardless. ECT is not some magical thing that ends the nightmare or ends the med journey.
If someone has not been tested for Lyme with the Western Blot test, been interviewed by a doctor who is Lyme literate, and tried Parnate and Nardil, they have no business whatsover even considering ECT.
I do believe ECT has its place though. For those people who are so mentally ill that they are permanently institutionalized, ECT can help them make enough progress that they can live in halfway houses. ECT is only for people who are so sick they have no attachment to the real world whatsoever, people who can afford to have some damage done as a trade off for some progress in partially rehabilitating them. Note, these people will never be well enough to live on their own, have jobs, raise families, but ECT can at least make their stays in the hospital shorter and less frequent.
Posted by linkadge on June 15, 2009, at 16:53:16
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 8:51:56
>I haven't tried mirapex, parnate, or >nortriptyline, but I have tried Lexapro, Prozac, >Zoloft, Paxil, Geodon, Seroquel, Abilify, and >Lamictal.
Excuse me?? You want to undergo what could be irreversable brain damage before even trying any of the good medications? The medications you have tried are a waste of time. Clearly you don't respond medicatons that boost serotonin / lower dopamine.
I don't think people really know what they're saying when they want ECT - especially when they havn't even tried medications that have a proven track record with treatment resistant depression. Obviously you are frustrated and hopeless - but come on, at least try a med with a little umph to it before resorting to ECT.
If your doctor is honestly going to adminster ECT without even trying a TCA, MAOI, venlafaxine or dopamine agonist, he/she is *not* a very wise or prudent doctor.
Linkadge
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on June 15, 2009, at 17:05:55
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by bleauberry on June 15, 2009, at 16:24:43
> I did ECT. 12 sessions bilateral.
>
> Total Cost: $22,000.00
>
> My Co-Pay: $6,000.00
>
> Memory Loss: Had to use mapquest to get around my small town I've lived in for 15 years. 3 months of memory completely gone, 6 months very blurry, and scattered memories from years ago totally gone. I don't recognize faces of people who know me. This happens A LOT, 3 years later.
>
> Cognitive Impact: Significant. Once a straight A student, now a slow fuzzy thinker.
>
> Efficacy: Zero. No better, no worse, just a lot of damage.
>
> Doctor's Comment on ECT: "The brain trauma is similar to what I saw from grenade blasts in Vietnam".
>
> Clinical Studies: Good luck finding any that prove ECT is as good as your doc says it is. Even then, good luck in finding any information...anecdotal or clinical...that shows ECT responders did not relapse within a very short time. Clinical studies that have looked at this show almost universal relapse within weeks to months.
>
> The hype on ECT is real good though. They make it sound so promising. I was suckered into that like many others. Not a single person among the half dozen of us getting ECT at the same time responded.
>
> Medications: Almost all ECT responders still require heavy med combinations to stay well once they get well, and relapse still happens regardless. ECT is not some magical thing that ends the nightmare or ends the med journey.
>
> If someone has not been tested for Lyme with the Western Blot test, been interviewed by a doctor who is Lyme literate, and tried Parnate and Nardil, they have no business whatsover even considering ECT.
>
>
> I do believe ECT has its place though. For those people who are so mentally ill that they are permanently institutionalized, ECT can help them make enough progress that they can live in halfway houses. ECT is only for people who are so sick they have no attachment to the real world whatsoever, people who can afford to have some damage done as a trade off for some progress in partially rehabilitating them. Note, these people will never be well enough to live on their own, have jobs, raise families, but ECT can at least make their stays in the hospital shorter and less frequent.
You've turned me off for sure.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on June 15, 2009, at 17:08:33
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by bleauberry on June 15, 2009, at 16:24:43
> I did ECT. 12 sessions bilateral.
>
> Total Cost: $22,000.00
>
> My Co-Pay: $6,000.00
>
> Memory Loss: Had to use mapquest to get around my small town I've lived in for 15 years. 3 months of memory completely gone, 6 months very blurry, and scattered memories from years ago totally gone. I don't recognize faces of people who know me. This happens A LOT, 3 years later.
>
> Cognitive Impact: Significant. Once a straight A student, now a slow fuzzy thinker.
>
> Efficacy: Zero. No better, no worse, just a lot of damage.
>
> Doctor's Comment on ECT: "The brain trauma is similar to what I saw from grenade blasts in Vietnam".
>
> Clinical Studies: Good luck finding any that prove ECT is as good as your doc says it is. Even then, good luck in finding any information...anecdotal or clinical...that shows ECT responders did not relapse within a very short time. Clinical studies that have looked at this show almost universal relapse within weeks to months.
>
> The hype on ECT is real good though. They make it sound so promising. I was suckered into that like many others. Not a single person among the half dozen of us getting ECT at the same time responded.
>
> Medications: Almost all ECT responders still require heavy med combinations to stay well once they get well, and relapse still happens regardless. ECT is not some magical thing that ends the nightmare or ends the med journey.
>
> If someone has not been tested for Lyme with the Western Blot test, been interviewed by a doctor who is Lyme literate, and tried Parnate and Nardil, they have no business whatsover even considering ECT.
>
>
> I do believe ECT has its place though. For those people who are so mentally ill that they are permanently institutionalized, ECT can help them make enough progress that they can live in halfway houses. ECT is only for people who are so sick they have no attachment to the real world whatsoever, people who can afford to have some damage done as a trade off for some progress in partially rehabilitating them. Note, these people will never be well enough to live on their own, have jobs, raise families, but ECT can at least make their stays in the hospital shorter and less frequent.
You've turned me off for sure.
Posted by bleauberry on June 15, 2009, at 17:51:19
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by linkadge on June 15, 2009, at 16:53:16
If your doctor is honestly going to adminster ECT without even trying a TCA, MAOI, venlafaxine or dopamine agonist, he/she is *not* a very wise or prudent doctor.
Linkadge
I could not have said it better. Thank you Link. A second opinion from a doctor who is knowledgable and comfortable with the best meds should be one's first priority. Like I said before, if one haven't been on Nardil AND Parnate, as well as what Link said about Effexor, and a couple Tricyclics, well, forget it, one has no business thinking of ECT. And one has no business doing business with a doctor who will not use those meds to one's benefit. Their motto is to do no harm. By avoiding those meds, they are encouraging harm by way of negligence.
Posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 20:08:50
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by linkadge on June 15, 2009, at 16:53:16
> >I haven't tried mirapex, parnate, or >nortriptyline, but I have tried Lexapro, Prozac, >Zoloft, Paxil, Geodon, Seroquel, Abilify, and >Lamictal.
>
> Excuse me?? You want to undergo what could be irreversable brain damage before even trying any of the good medications? The medications you have tried are a waste of time. Clearly you don't respond medicatons that boost serotonin / lower dopamine.
>
> I don't think people really know what they're saying when they want ECT - especially when they havn't even tried medications that have a proven track record with treatment resistant depression. Obviously you are frustrated and hopeless - but come on, at least try a med with a little umph to it before resorting to ECT.
>
> If your doctor is honestly going to adminster ECT without even trying a TCA, MAOI, venlafaxine or dopamine agonist, he/she is *not* a very wise or prudent doctor.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Well it's ME who wants to administer the ECT, the doctor WAS going to recommend it, until both my parents said outright that they don't want me getting it, and the doctor sided with them.
I have to admit, I'm not thinking completely clearly in the state that I'm currently in, so I'm subject to carelessness when it comes to decisions regarding my health. I'm just so frustarated that SSRI's haven't worked like they did in the past. All I needed before was just Paxil and it worked beautifully. Now this time around, I seem to be resisting the SSRI's due to my "strange" symptoms. Here are some of my symptoms:
-Anhedonia
-Loss of some involuntary movements (eyes blinking; it seems like I have to manually blink or I have an altered eye blink rate)
-Low libido
-Head feels very light/like a feather almost
-Altered sense of surroundings/environment
-Altered sense of time
-No sense of pleasure/euphoriaSo you're suggesting that I try something like Parnate, Nardil, or maybe even Deprenyl? Out of the three, I think I'm going to try deprenyl first.
Here's the combo that I'm going to be on: Deprenyl, Lithium, and Geodon. I want to try Lithium because I've never tried it and I heard it's good for treatment-resistant depression.
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 22:40:43
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 20:08:50
Don't forget EMSAM lots of others have done well on this med. Expensive but it's a patch. Phillipa
Posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 0:25:02
In reply to Re: ECT » Rdragon, posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 22:40:43
Hey thanks so much to everyone's responses. I am officially not going to consider ECT. I will be looking for a new psychiatrist.
I am bipolar. For 8 years I was on Zoloft alone and did quite well. I still had issues, but as long as I did the right things, I felt pretty damn good.
I am currently taking lithium and celexa. This is after I was on 9 other medications this past year and a half.
Right now, things are really bad. I was on Lamictal and just did not feel right. I had several reactions to it. I just never knew that getting off of it was going to be such a nitemare.
I am interested in Nardil and Parnate as long as I can take them with Lithium or Depakote.
It's so weird how you can feel so normal(well as normal as I could) on something like Zoloft for so many years. Then, get off zoloft thinking your better and don't need drugs because you worked so hare in therapy. Then a perfect storm comes together sending you into your first major mixed episode. I fear I have opened pandora's box. Over the past summer, I was actually only on zoloft again. I actually felt ok, though I was not were near as stable as I needed to be. But I at least felt fairly normal physiologically. That is not the case right now. I have so much more going on that is making living comfortably and feeling normal so much harder than it would be if it were just my mental health. I think that is one of the reason's why this bipolar thing has exploded into what it is. I can't cover things up by going to the gym, playing basketball, and going out and drinking with friends. I am a physical wreck in a very short period of time. Not cool at all. I'm only 36 and I feel like 80. Very overwhelming since I was so active and comfortable just a few years ago. Now, I am going on a bit of a rant.
What are the side effects like with Nardil and Parnate? Are they effective at all for anxiety/obsessive thoughts? Can they help with nerve pain?
Can anyone share their experiences with these meds? There was a combo a few of you mentioned, I can't remember what it was in my impaired state.Also, Anyone live in the DC metro area. I need a good psychiatrist. That jack *ss talked about ECT for 20 minutes the last time I saw him. Gonna have to fire his *ss
Posted by alchemy on June 16, 2009, at 1:04:23
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 0:25:02
ECT is usually for when you are REALLY bad & need help FAST. I have been really bad twice. The first time my dr. didn't recommended it. I did research & talked to some people. I was DESPERATE and asked for it. With 5-6 treatments I felt better than I ever have in my life. Unfortunately I went back down to my normal depressed state.
The 2nd time I was also desperate (Geodon for me = very bad). I got a hold of my psych over the weekend. He called during my Sunday birthday dinner and said there was a cancellation and I could in tomorrow. Thank god. I also got better with just a few treatments.
Posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 1:25:21
In reply to ECT was good for me, posted by alchemy on June 16, 2009, at 1:04:23
> ECT is usually for when you are REALLY bad & need help FAST. I have been really bad twice. The first time my dr. didn't recommended it. I did research & talked to some people. I was DESPERATE and asked for it. With 5-6 treatments I felt better than I ever have in my life. Unfortunately I went back down to my normal depressed state.
> The 2nd time I was also desperate (Geodon for me = very bad). I got a hold of my psych over the weekend. He called during my Sunday birthday dinner and said there was a cancellation and I could in tomorrow. Thank god. I also got better with just a few treatments.Thanks and thanks for finding me in this thread.
So I guess you couldn't follow up with meds to maintaing the feeling post ECT? Is the treatment somewhat long term? I guess it kept you out of the deep depression for a while. Did you have bilateral? I'm assuming you did.
Posted by alchemy on June 16, 2009, at 1:46:05
In reply to Re: ECT was good for me, posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 1:25:21
> So I guess you couldn't follow up with meds to maintaing the feeling post ECT?
- Unfortunately not. I have been depressed & on meds for about 20 years. I'm on a fairly good regimin now considering my past & my drug trials, but it's not good enough.
> Is the treatment somewhat long term? I guess it kept you out of the deep depression for a while.
- The short term treatment lifted me out of a black hole permanently. The "high" effects decreased, but not to the black hole.
For me, long term treatment doesn't seem to be real beneficial. But I know of one person that gets a monthly "fix". Kitty Dukakis has a book called 'Shocked' where she doesn't take meds and just gets "shocked" when she feels her bipolar coming on.>Did you have bilateral? I'm assuming you did.
- I think I said bilateral, but I meant unilateral (just one side). I don't think many drs to bilateral.
Posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 2:16:39
In reply to Re: ECT was good for me, posted by alchemy on June 16, 2009, at 1:46:05
Thanks alchemy! I am still concerned about it. I wish there were not so many other horror stories.
Bilateral is often usually used for severe cases. It is supposed to be more effective but more invasive.
If there were no possible long term effects on cognition/memory, I would already be getting treatments.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on June 16, 2009, at 8:04:26
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by Rdragon on June 15, 2009, at 20:08:50
> > >I haven't tried mirapex, parnate, or >nortriptyline, but I have tried Lexapro, Prozac, >Zoloft, Paxil, Geodon, Seroquel, Abilify, and >Lamictal.
> >
> > Excuse me?? You want to undergo what could be irreversable brain damage before even trying any of the good medications? The medications you have tried are a waste of time. Clearly you don't respond medicatons that boost serotonin / lower dopamine.
> >
> > I don't think people really know what they're saying when they want ECT - especially when they havn't even tried medications that have a proven track record with treatment resistant depression. Obviously you are frustrated and hopeless - but come on, at least try a med with a little umph to it before resorting to ECT.
> >
> > If your doctor is honestly going to adminster ECT without even trying a TCA, MAOI, venlafaxine or dopamine agonist, he/she is *not* a very wise or prudent doctor.
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Well it's ME who wants to administer the ECT, the doctor WAS going to recommend it, until both my parents said outright that they don't want me getting it, and the doctor sided with them.
>
> I have to admit, I'm not thinking completely clearly in the state that I'm currently in, so I'm subject to carelessness when it comes to decisions regarding my health. I'm just so frustarated that SSRI's haven't worked like they did in the past. All I needed before was just Paxil and it worked beautifully. Now this time around, I seem to be resisting the SSRI's due to my "strange" symptoms. Here are some of my symptoms:
>
> -Anhedonia
> -Loss of some involuntary movements (eyes blinking; it seems like I have to manually blink or I have an altered eye blink rate)
> -Low libido
> -Head feels very light/like a feather almost
> -Altered sense of surroundings/environment
> -Altered sense of time
> -No sense of pleasure/euphoria
>
> So you're suggesting that I try something like Parnate, Nardil, or maybe even Deprenyl? Out of the three, I think I'm going to try deprenyl first.
>
> Here's the combo that I'm going to be on: Deprenyl, Lithium, and Geodon. I want to try Lithium because I've never tried it and I heard it's good for treatment-resistant depression.
I think you need to try meds that works strongly on dopamine. From what I hear about parnate, I think you should give it a try.
Posted by alchemy on June 16, 2009, at 11:02:09
In reply to Re: ECT was good for me, posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 2:16:39
Ya, ECT is scary and a hard decision. There are some people who don't have good stories. I didn't have any cognition problems (that's not usually a side effect) - I'm still as smart as I use to be :). But the memory problems (a common effect) could be an issue.
I suggest finding some unbiased information. There is the web & probably some books. My decision came from how miserable I was (caused by med trials that made me worse) and talking to some people that had done it (hearing first hand their positive stories). I would do it again if I ever became that bad.
Good luck.
Posted by terrysb on June 16, 2009, at 23:32:34
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by morganpmiller on June 16, 2009, at 0:25:02
I live in the DC area (Northern Va.). If you want a recommendation let me know. I'm still new here so not sure how to convey something privately.
Posted by morganpmiller on June 17, 2009, at 1:04:52
In reply to Re: ECT » morganpmiller, posted by terrysb on June 16, 2009, at 23:32:34
Thank you so much! I could give you my email? Then everyone would have it but I don't really care. Or, it you aren't comfortable with that you can just tell me here. I don't care. Unless you don't want to reveal your doctor or the doctor's name on this forum. I may be going into the hospital in the next few days so I might be good. I would still love to get a recommendation.
Posted by alchemy on June 17, 2009, at 10:35:59
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by morganpmiller on June 17, 2009, at 1:04:52
another fyi, when I was briefly in the hospital, one of the workers mentioned that he had seen how helpful ect was. He said it was like the seizures somehow rejumbled your brain into a better state. (for most people, not all)
Posted by terrysb on June 17, 2009, at 15:19:15
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by morganpmiller on June 17, 2009, at 1:04:52
If you could put up your email I will contact you.
Posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 19:58:03
In reply to Re: ECT » morganpmiller, posted by terrysb on June 17, 2009, at 15:19:15
Your babblemail is on his isn't if you both use babblemail it will be private. Phillipa
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