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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 24 to 48 of 124. Go back in thread:
Posted by Justherself54 on May 8, 2008, at 9:41:51
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever.......Ace » Justherself54, posted by ace on May 8, 2008, at 1:26:31
>
> The vomiting is strange.....Although people do experience this on Remeron....Yes, it was strange...and scary...
>
> Were you taking any other medicines at the time of your Nardil trial?
50 mg. seroquel up from my usual 25 mg, .05 clonazapam and 7.5 zopiclone (which I had to increase also to combat insomnia.
>
> Parnate can be a real Godsend too.....it has been shown, like Nardil, to be extremely effective.It was an effective med for me also
>
> Differences about Parnate, in contrast to Nardil, , are its s/effect profile...obviously it has a different pharmacology-
> In my opinion Parnate has unequivocal psycho-stimulant properties that can lead to a great response (and some insomnia). other s/effects are lack of appetite (which you know) and minor psychomotor problems. There's is a full list, but these are what I have noticed most....I had pyschomotor problems on Nardil...the drunken sailer walk...I also had a terrible time with transposing letters and leaving off the ends of words when I typed...
>
> For some it's NE profile, I feel, can cause a paradoxical depression.
>
> I think this is mainly the exception, not the rule but.
>
> I have seen phenomenal responses to Parnate- not as manu as Nardil, but still a lot...Yeah...Nardil has that great euphoria at the beginning...had to keep an eye on it so I didn't overshoot from a hypomania to nastier one...initially it was like WOW...I can't believe the energy I have, but then the side effects popped up...Parnate didn't have that...but it made me stay on task and my focus was incredible...not very social but felt smarter than usual (if that makes any sense)
>
> I definately would give it a go.....how long was your last trial?Was only up to 20 mg for a couple of months and went off due to major surgery, then restarted but ended up with severe chilling...found out later it was from surgery but at that time I was already on Nardil...
>
> And in one study I have, it was the leading medicine that psychiatrists would treat themselves with!I wonder if that's why my pdoc has many patients on Parnate...I was his only one on Nardil...must ask him...
>
> Please feel free to ask any more, and I hope all is well:)So far I have been able to go without an AD for the first time in years...I have a prescription for Parnate sitting...but right now it's nice to be side effect free...how long it will last I don't know...if I do restart it I'm going to have to force myself to eat, as I think that excaberated the hypotension...low blood sugar on top of hypotension...
As I have fibromyalgia my pdoc has mentioned Cymbalta ,as it's just been released in the land of hockey and beer, but I'm still leaning towards the MAOI's and I think he is too, at least in my case. I've had the best responses ever from them. They have more "physical" side effects which I can tolerate more than the "inside the head" side effects of SSRI's. (I don't know if I'm making much sense...I have a major case of fibro fog going on right now.
Thanks Ace...it was nice to see some feedback on Parnate...it could be helpful to those who had failed trials with Nardil to know that Parnate is out there and may be suitable for them...MAOI's rock...to bad they couldn't work out the nastier side effects without compromising the effectiveness of the drug..
Justy
Posted by ace on May 8, 2008, at 23:51:19
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by clipper40 on May 7, 2008, at 0:02:34
> Ace,
>
> Your argument adds weight to why you should STAY on your medications once you become a pdoc. It doesn't explain why you're planning to stop them once you're a doctor who is treating patients. Could it be that you just typed that sentence wrong and you meant that you are NOT planning to stop your medications?
I may have been thinking in reverse or something here! Your basically saying I provide more reason to stay on the meds when a shrink? That seems like a dumb question!I got to bed 6am this morning, so my brain is functioning somewhat weird!
My main concern, I feel, is that I wouldn't want my illness to in anyway be a detriment to my ability to empathize and try to ameliorate another persons illness.
I think your saying- If i stay on the meds, my illness would at bay, and allow me to conduct myself in such a way?
A part of it is ethics too...I just feel a little 'wrong' being on treatments that I would dispense...I am old fashioned I feel in some respects....Certainly as a Doctor I wouldn't use swear words in a clinical setting, in a sense, I would also have to suppress my eccentric side....not totally!
Does any of this make sense??!!
> I also wanted to say that I have enjoyed your posts over the years and I'm glad that you have a medication that works so well for you.Thankyou very much- I really do feel happy that you feel this way. I ruly hope things are going great for you....if not, hang in there!!
Peace to you,
Ace:)
Posted by ace on May 8, 2008, at 23:58:20
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever/Ace, posted by Justherself54 on May 8, 2008, at 9:41:51
I have to run now, but will answer all....in addition I will get those studies for Simon no probs at all....
Once again I hope this doesn't make me sound like a self-important snob!
Posted by ace on May 9, 2008, at 0:00:43
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by simon79 on May 8, 2008, at 3:50:43
Simon- will dig out studies tonight, not a problem....also will answer your message in full..
Just overwhelmed on this day!What day do you see him?
It's Friday in Australia at the moment.
I'd obviously like to get them to you ASAP.....
Peace to you,
Andrew
Posted by simon79 on May 9, 2008, at 0:49:05
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » simon79, posted by ace on May 9, 2008, at 0:00:43
Dear Ace/Nardil champ
>What day do you see him?
I leave in New Zealand and i see him on mondayIt's Friday in Australia at the moment.
It's friday in new zealand at the moment too :)I'd obviously like to get them to you ASAP.....
Thanks you i'm sure just one or two would be enoughThanks again for sharing your knowledge on nardil
Simon
Posted by mav27 on May 9, 2008, at 3:09:29
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by simon79 on May 7, 2008, at 3:17:16
> Dear Ace
> I find your story so inspiring it almost brings tears to my eyes. I wish you all the very best in becoming a psychiatrist.
> I myself have suffered from social anxiety (currently severe) and depression (currently moderate) for 14 years.
> After trying nurmerous drugs, a few emotional breakdowns, and abusing recreational drugs to escape my pain I have been given clonazepam and nardil. My only query is my doc is titrating me up very slowly on the nardil, i'm currently on 30 and don't feel anything much from it or much in the way of side effects and he says "2 months and u will get full effect at that dose and then we can think about adding another 15mg"... so it's gonna be a long time to get to 60... and god forbid i don't know what i would do if this drug doesn't work for me :(.. anyways.. do u think this is titrating up a bit too slowly? i'm not sure whether to trust him or put my foot down and say i'm only waiting a month for each 15mg until i get to 60 if i'm not hving any problems with side effects.
>
>My doc started me the same way.. but i figured stuff it the info that came with nardil said increase to 60 as fast as you could so thats what i did. All was good for 4 weeks and then bang.. the side effects were so bad i ended up in hospital. Had to then start all over again so that was about 6 weeks down the drain. This time i stuck to the 30 mg for two months then went to 45 and it kicked in in 2 days and i was actually able to remain conceous for more than 5 seconds this time to enjoy it!
Posted by cumulative on May 9, 2008, at 6:46:48
In reply to Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by ace on May 5, 2008, at 23:36:34
I agree with ace's sentiments here.
Many of the people on this forum have had similar experiences -- lowering the dose (CONTRARY to the theory that the antidepressant effect from MAO inhbibition can be maintained at a lower dose which continues to get rid of MAO) has caused a loss of effect and relapse.
I think that the reason for this is that much of Nardil's antidepressant effect might stem from additional properties beyond MAOI:
a) the gabaergic activity of Nardil and its metabolites, which is dose-dependent
b) another Nardil metabolite is phenethylamine (PEA), an endogenous stimulant-type substance with effects comparable in many ways to amphetamine*. Typoically PEA is rapidly destroyed by the monoamine oxidase enzymes before it can reach blood levels of any significance -- Nardil's MAOI stops this from happening, but the metabolism to phenethylamine is still dose-dependent.I think this theory accounts for Nardil's stimulating, prosocial, and (great stuff!)euthymic/hyperthymic (bordering on hypomanic) effects. The GABAergic properties might optimally be offseting nervousness from PEA, and also improving e.g. social phobia on their own.
(*alpha-methyl-phenethylamine)
What's particularly interesting to me about Nardil is the very long-lasting efficacy -- it seems to me, from reading these anecdotal reports, that many of those (though not all) who do well on it can continue to do so for many years, even decades! The early hypomania seems to usually fade, but a VERY considerbale mood improvement remains. This to my mind is unusual among most of the antidepressant substances, especially those that seem to provide some dopaminergic effect, as Nardil to my mind does.
I wonder ... just found this. Very,very interesting in the context of memantine (a partial NMDA glutamate subtype antagonist) that some of us here have been examining both as a standalone antidepressant, and for halting the development of tolerance to psychostimulants, particularly the antidepressant, antianhedonic effects of these stimulants ...
One more thing. A few people have complained of cognitive issues with Nardil, especially early in treatment. I'm not sure if anticholinergic properties have been identified for this drug, but some of the possible side effects would seem to suggest possible anticholinergic activity very well. It's not hard to imagine that something like that could be occurring downstream. In this case, it may be interesting to look at the cholinergic precursor supplements Alpha-GPC and citicoline, both of which have benefits beyond cholingeric enhancement. iirc the old great poster here Chairman MAO found galantamine (the combined acetylcholinesterase inhibitor/nicotinic agonist) to completely eliminate any cognitive issues from Nardil, and even help with Nardil anorgasmia ... which can also be an effect of excessive anticholinergic activity, among other things.
Last time I talked to Chairman some months ago he was taking 60mg dextroamphetamine (VERY cautiously titrated upwards by 2.6 mg at a time!) + 105 mg Nardil daily, and this had been successful for him for around 2 and a half years and continuing.
Posted by octothorpe on May 9, 2008, at 7:49:20
In reply to Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by ace on May 5, 2008, at 23:36:34
Ace - you are a legend in my eyes! Much of what helped me decide to take Nardil was your great info and extremely positive attitude on the med.
Just wanted to take the opportunity thank you my man. Best of luck to you...
Tom
Posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:20:30
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by simon79 on May 9, 2008, at 0:49:05
> Dear Ace/Nardil champ
>
> >What day do you see him?
> I leave in New Zealand and i see him on monday
>
> It's Friday in Australia at the moment.
> It's friday in new zealand at the moment too :)
>
> I'd obviously like to get them to you ASAP.....
> Thanks you i'm sure just one or two would be enough
>
> Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on nardil
> Simon
Not a problem mate!...I have located the papers, will get them to you by Monday- I am just away from home at the moment....would I be able to grab your email?Ace:)
Posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:27:41
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » simon79, posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:20:30
> > Dear Ace/Nardil champ
> >
> > >What day do you see him?
> > I leave in New Zealand and i see him on monday
> >
> > It's Friday in Australia at the moment.
> > It's friday in new zealand at the moment too :)
> >
> > I'd obviously like to get them to you ASAP.....
> > Thanks you i'm sure just one or two would be enough
> >
> > Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on nardil
> > Simon
>
>
> Not a problem mate!...I have located the papers, will get them to you by Monday- I am just away from home at the moment....would I be able to grab your email?
>
> Ace:)
I just read Cumulative's post- I would recomend taking this to your MD too- I agree with everything he stated- and he elaborated his sentiments with pertinent pharmacological evidence.I have seen many posters on this very site who know exponentially more than your average psych, on the ins and outs of MAOI's.....
Cheers!
Ace:)
Posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:57:42
In reply to nardil thoughts. why not to lower for maintenance, posted by cumulative on May 9, 2008, at 6:46:48
> I agree with ace's sentiments here.
>
> Many of the people on this forum have had similar experiences -- lowering the dose (CONTRARY to the theory that the antidepressant effect from MAO inhbibition can be maintained at a lower dose which continues to get rid of MAO) has caused a loss of effect and relapse.
100% agreed upon. I think the monograph has to be amended: not just in the respect either....
I have not seen any clinical trials that support sustained therapeutic action, with subsequent lowering of dose. I actually feel this sentiment is an affront to medical logic...
> I think that the reason for this is that much of Nardil's antidepressant effect might stem from additional properties beyond MAOI:
>
> a) the gabaergic activity of Nardil and its metabolites, which is dose-dependentWhich I think accounts for accounts for not only Nardil's anxiolytic properties, but also it's AD effects. This aspect, I also feel, is very very much dose dependant....
> b) another Nardil metabolite is phenethylamine (PEA), an endogenous stimulant-type substance with effects comparable in many ways to amphetamine*. Typoically PEA is rapidly destroyed by the monoamine oxidase enzymes before it can reach blood levels of any significance -- Nardil's MAOI stops this from happening, but the metabolism to phenethylamine is still dose-dependent.> I think this theory accounts for Nardil's stimulating, prosocial, and (great stuff!)euthymic/hyperthymic (bordering on hypomanic) effects. The GABAergic properties might optimally be offseting nervousness from PEA, and also improving e.g. social phobia on their own.
>
> (*alpha-methyl-phenethylamine)
>
> What's particularly interesting to me about Nardil is the very long-lasting efficacy -- it seems to me, from reading these anecdotal reports, that many of those (though not all) who do well on it can continue to do so for many years, even decades! The early hypomania seems to usually fade, but a VERY considerbale mood improvement remains.
I know what you mean. However, I notice that many patients, in addition to retaining a formidable therapetic response, also tend to cycle in and out of their initial hypomaniac-like state. Some have stated that Nardil (and Parnate) suffer from the 'poop-out' syndrome to a great degree. I disagree with this, not only on anectodal reports, but clinical evidence. When I have seen/heard of Nardil loosing efficacy over a period of time, the genesis of this seems to be in the fact that the patient becomes remiss to certain fundamental issues as taking the drug every day (as opposed to skipping doses), taking the drug at totally unregular time intervals.....tampering with the (effective) dosage etc etc etc
This to my mind is unusual among most of the antidepressant substances, especially those that seem to provide some dopaminergic effect, as Nardil to my mind does.I think, along with Nardil, Clomipramine, in particular, seems to share this trait. SSRI's, in my view, not only provide (for the most part) little efficacy, but seem to poop-out a lot, and, only have 'one-shot' efficay....
>
> I wonder ... just found this. Very,very interesting in the context of memantine (a partial NMDA glutamate subtype antagonist) that some of us here have been examining both as a standalone antidepressant, and for halting the development of tolerance to psychostimulants, particularly the antidepressant, antianhedonic effects of these stimulants ...
>
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0F-41KP985-2&_user=1537448&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000053621&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=1537448&md5=27e5d89f3df6c1d9491bb0b5e3951d21
>
> One more thing. A few people have complained of cognitive issues with Nardil, especially early in treatment. I'm not sure if anticholinergic properties have been identified for this drug,This is true, and I do have papers at home that do strongly point to anticholinergic properties which account for this. Cognitive problems, usually are usually only early in treatment as you stated....I think they usually appear as the first s/effects (apart from somnolence in some) and are the first to dissipate....
but some of the possible side effects would seem to suggest possible anticholinergic activity very well. It's not hard to imagine that something like that could be occurring downstream. In this case, it may be interesting to look at the cholinergic precursor supplements Alpha-GPC and citicoline, both of which have benefits beyond cholingeric enhancement. iirc the old great poster here Chairman MAOWhere has Chairman gone!!?? He certainly knew his MAOI's!!!!
found galantamine (the combined acetylcholinesterase inhibitor/nicotinic agonist) to completely eliminate any cognitive issues from Nardil, and even help with Nardil anorgasmia ... which can also be an effect of excessive anticholinergic activity, among other things.
>
> Last time I talked to Chairman some months ago he was taking 60mg dextroamphetamine (VERY cautiously titrated upwards by 2.6 mg at a time!) + 105 mg Nardil daily, and this had been successful for him for around 2 and a half years and continuing.
A very good, accurate post......Ace:)
Posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 1:07:53
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » ace, posted by octothorpe on May 9, 2008, at 7:49:20
> Ace - you are a legend in my eyes! Much of what helped me decide to take Nardil was your great info and extremely positive attitude on the med.
>
> Just wanted to take the opportunity thank you my man. Best of luck to you...
>
> Tom
Hey Tom! Thanks mate:) It feels great that I had that effect. Nardil just did so much for me and so so so so many folk, I just can't shut up at times about it, ha ha!!Your message is very much appreciated (made me feel great!), and I too, wish you all the very best!!
Ace:)
Posted by undopaminergic on May 10, 2008, at 2:59:15
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » simon79, posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:20:30
>
>
> Not a problem mate!...I have located the papers, will get them to you by Monday- I am just away from home at the moment....would I be able to grab your email?
>I too might be interested in any good papers you have on the topic of MAOIs, so while you're at it, maybe you could provide (post, or send via the Babblemail feature) more specific details on what you have?
Posted by Phillipa on May 10, 2008, at 19:48:11
In reply to Re: nardil thoughts. why not to lower for maintenance » cumulative, posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:57:42
Ace Chairman got blocked for a long time forget for what. Love Phillipa
Posted by simon79 on May 10, 2008, at 20:54:42
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » simon79, posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:20:30
Hi Ace,
scoobydoo_126@hotmail.com
Thanks a bunch
Posted by simon79 on May 10, 2008, at 22:47:22
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » simon79, posted by ace on May 10, 2008, at 0:20:30
Dear Ace,
I have a quick question for you if you have time time answer that would be kool..
I have always loved my beer, but starting clonazepam and nardil my doctor said to try to restrict a drinking sessions to 4 standard drinks per day orelse the meds with lose some of their eficacy. How much do you drink and if you drink more than this has you meds lost some of their eficacy?
I'm ok with this because as everybody knows 1 beer on benzos = 2 beers for a person not on meds, and nardil probably increases the effect of alcohol also, but I do miss the occassional binge..
Thanks a bunch :-)
Posted by Fivefires on May 11, 2008, at 0:25:30
In reply to nardil thoughts. why not to lower for maintenance, posted by cumulative on May 9, 2008, at 6:46:48
I'm sorry cumulative, but Ace's sentiments where?
I'm very anxious/nervous, and trying to see where this is first shared.
Can u help me pls?
tks
5f
Posted by Fivefires on May 11, 2008, at 0:49:22
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever....... » simon79, posted by ace on May 9, 2008, at 0:00:43
Hi Ace. I'm 5f.
I've been w/o an AD for nearly a year and am in a full blown major depression ... seems like months. Just lie in bed. Feel like am literally dying. All abandon as think I seem attn, but this is so real. Diagnoses PTSD, borderline, atypical.(?) Long time back bit of help from SSRIs tho black holes lost cognitive awareness life value and unowhat occurred, tricyclics just nothing really, and I guess most effective was Effexor-XR, which have been on prob' 5x, each time reacting a little differently. No to its counterpart. Recently PCP upset at pdoc not agreeable to any AD for me, gave me Wellbutrin-XL and the nervousness was atrocious. Anxiety is a very major issue for me. All I'm on is a benzo, tho' may be shuffling in a state hospital if not for Valium when suffered an insult to my nervous system in 2005 after an overwhelming life event. So, alone here, literally wasting away. See all this re: Nardil. Pharmacist tonight said 'in all yrs as pharmacist, ur only second I've ever written this for. Inquired my med trials. When asked if I'd ever been tried on a combo therapy, seemed shocked when I said 'no'. I'ver seen a lot of pp here on them. I've heard of diff' ones. He said Wellbrutin-XL and Effexor-XR was a popular one.(?) I told him I'd heard fo Remeron and the prior. I am not psychotic. I am pretty highly cognitive. My body just seems to be giving up. I have a lot of love lost in the past five years; like 10pp. People believed loved me. Found diff'. Anyway, I want to see what yo say next here as the Nardil scrip is available to me Mon or Tue. I have been veryr reluctant re: it because, like I said, I am considered highly functioning. Althouh, no one has seen me lie here for these weeks on end now. Pdoc doesn't see it and I'm not sure he'd even believe it. I have always made sure I look as best as possible when walk out front door and take on the mindset I've driven a car and handled life for many yrs and cruise along as if nothing is wrong once out the door. When locked behind, I collapse again into bed. I cannot even awake now w/o Provigil. I am on SSD and had to get a food box Fri. My only support is a man w/ an illicit drug prob'; no I do not participate. I am very very careful not to abuse. But it's getting very hard. A terrible panic attack last eve; worse than ever experienced. Wonder try Nardil or push for a combo. Wonder maybe the other one, the other MAOI I see some may have mentioned as seeming to not create more anxiety, as this is a real important thing for me. Oh. Parnate. Yes. That's the one I'thinking of here. I will follow as you said you'd try get back here. Sometimes I can't open pute and read emails as the person above is here at night when I am scared to be alone. On way now.
tks 5f
Posted by bulldog2 on May 11, 2008, at 11:20:37
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by Fivefires on May 11, 2008, at 0:49:22
> Hi Ace. I'm 5f.
>
> I've been w/o an AD for nearly a year and am in a full blown major depression ... seems like months. Just lie in bed. Feel like am literally dying. All abandon as think I seem attn, but this is so real. Diagnoses PTSD, borderline, atypical.(?) Long time back bit of help from SSRIs tho black holes lost cognitive awareness life value and unowhat occurred, tricyclics just nothing really, and I guess most effective was Effexor-XR, which have been on prob' 5x, each time reacting a little differently. No to its counterpart. Recently PCP upset at pdoc not agreeable to any AD for me, gave me Wellbutrin-XL and the nervousness was atrocious. Anxiety is a very major issue for me. All I'm on is a benzo, tho' may be shuffling in a state hospital if not for Valium when suffered an insult to my nervous system in 2005 after an overwhelming life event. So, alone here, literally wasting away. See all this re: Nardil. Pharmacist tonight said 'in all yrs as pharmacist, ur only second I've ever written this for. Inquired my med trials. When asked if I'd ever been tried on a combo therapy, seemed shocked when I said 'no'. I'ver seen a lot of pp here on them. I've heard of diff' ones. He said Wellbrutin-XL and Effexor-XR was a popular one.(?) I told him I'd heard fo Remeron and the prior. I am not psychotic. I am pretty highly cognitive. My body just seems to be giving up. I have a lot of love lost in the past five years; like 10pp. People believed loved me. Found diff'. Anyway, I want to see what yo say next here as the Nardil scrip is available to me Mon or Tue. I have been veryr reluctant re: it because, like I said, I am considered highly functioning. Althouh, no one has seen me lie here for these weeks on end now. Pdoc doesn't see it and I'm not sure he'd even believe it. I have always made sure I look as best as possible when walk out front door and take on the mindset I've driven a car and handled life for many yrs and cruise along as if nothing is wrong once out the door. When locked behind, I collapse again into bed. I cannot even awake now w/o Provigil. I am on SSD and had to get a food box Fri. My only support is a man w/ an illicit drug prob'; no I do not participate. I am very very careful not to abuse. But it's getting very hard. A terrible panic attack last eve; worse than ever experienced. Wonder try Nardil or push for a combo. Wonder maybe the other one, the other MAOI I see some may have mentioned as seeming to not create more anxiety, as this is a real important thing for me. Oh. Parnate. Yes. That's the one I'thinking of here. I will follow as you said you'd try get back here. Sometimes I can't open pute and read emails as the person above is here at night when I am scared to be alone. On way now.
>
> tks 5fSounds like you're in bad shape. Nardil is a big gun and maybe that will do the trick. I would think combo therapy takes longer to work out and sounds like you need some relief now.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 11, 2008, at 12:46:33
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by Fivefires on May 11, 2008, at 0:49:22
> Wonder try Nardil or push for a combo. Wonder maybe the other one, the other MAOI I see some may have mentioned as seeming to not create more anxiety, as this is a real important thing for me. Oh. Parnate. Yes. That's the one I'thinking of here. I will follow as you said you'd try get back here. Sometimes I can't open pute and read emails as the person above is here at night when I am scared to be alone. On way now.
>Nardil is generally better for anxiety than Parnate, which also seems to be associated with a higher risk of hypertensive events. On the other hand, Parnate is less likely to produce weight gain, lethargy, and elevation of liver enzymes, and has some stimulant-like qualities especially at higher doses.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 11, 2008, at 15:56:38
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by bulldog2 on May 11, 2008, at 11:20:37
>
> Sounds like you're in bad shape. Nardil is a big gun and maybe that will do the trick. I would think combo therapy takes longer to work out and sounds like you need some relief now.
>Nardil typically takes weeks to give clear benefits.
Posted by ace on May 11, 2008, at 22:29:09
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by simon79 on May 10, 2008, at 22:47:22
> Dear Ace,
> I have a quick question for you if you have time time answer that would be kool..
> I have always loved my beer, but starting clonazepam and nardil my doctor said to try to restrict a drinking sessions to 4 standard drinks per day orelse the meds with lose some of their eficacy. How much do you drink and if you drink more than this has you meds lost some of their eficacy?This brings back memories! Before I started Nardil I was drinking every day- large quantities. In order to go out, without anxiety, I had to be intoxicated. This was obviously detrimental to so many things.
I remeber talking about alcohol to my MD. I was very concerned that I wasn't going to be able to drink.....I didn't wan't to loose my alcohol!!!
After starting Nardil I stopped. After 6 weeks, I thought "this is way better than any beer!!" In 7 years (almost) I have been intoxicated twice....both times I drank tap beer (which is contraindicated) and I had no problems at all- except it gave me a heightened response to the alcohol.
To answer your question, I would most certainly AVOID alcohol whilst waiting for Nardil to kick in (certainly not have 4 drinks a day). I DO feel it can interfere, and I have seen evidence for this. I can't explain exactly why I'm sorry.
When Nardil kicks in, and I strongly feel it will!, I would advice to drink bottled beer (tyramine can accumulate in the pipes- resulting in a possible HT crises) I have mentioned this before. I would personally be moderate in my intake.
Do you drink in order to supress psychiatric syndromes, or is it a social thing??
Cheers mate.....I have the texts on me right now- see other message:)
Ace:)
> I'm ok with this because as everybody knows 1 beer on benzos = 2 beers for a person not on meds, and nardil probably increases the effect of alcohol also, but I do miss the occassional binge..
> Thanks a bunch :-)
>
>
Posted by ace on May 11, 2008, at 23:19:05
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by simon79 on May 10, 2008, at 20:54:42
> Hi Ace,
> scoobydoo_126@hotmail.com
> Thanks a bunchCheers mate....I have dug them out! These files date back 7 years. At this stage I was printing out EVERY possible post/trial on Nardil, on any site, I could find (Heaven forbid, I might be just a tad obsessive!!!)
Reading through them again just verified what I have stated for the past years in regards to Nardil.....Out of all the anectodes, and it would take me a week to count them all!) I remember encountering 1-3 in which a person did not respond to Nardil- and even in these cases, I can see reasons why they would not have responded. I might sound very bias....but all this is on paper, in clinical trials, etc etc. It still amazes me.
Here we go..... In addition to these I have PDF's with no URL, which I will have to locate manually, as such....
I have many many more than I will show here, so please ask if you would like more....
1. ""MAO inhibitors:
An option worth trying in treatment-resistant cases """
Jonathan O. Cole, MD
Senior consultant in psychopharmacology
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
J. Alexander Bodkin, MD
Chief, Clinical Psychopharmacology Research Program
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Assistant professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
This is an extremely good article....With regards to dose, HT crises and many other things.
"Phenelzine has the advantage that the effective dosage for depression is probably now knownmore than 1 mg/kg body weightalthough in three earlier large negative controlled studies, the effective dosage was not known and too little was given for too short a period. Weight gain and hypotension may be more common with this drug than with other MAOIs"
This statement is particulary significant.
Please locate the article here, and show your psychiatrist.....
http://www.drtonyromack.com/MAOIs.htm
2. Phenelzine 60 mg Effective: 30 mg little benefit. but 60mg helps 70% depressed. If no response in 6 weeks, increased to 75-90mg/d for fast acetylators.Lewis Ravaris, U Vermont.
(Much more great info in this)
3. b) Efficacy. MAOIs have been studied in patients with borderline personality disorder in three placebo-controlled acute treatment trials (5557).
...
Cowdry and Gardner (55) noted that, "the MAOI proved to be the most effective psychopharmacological agent overall, with clear effects on mood and less prominent effects on behavioral control."http://www.aapel.org/bdp/BLpharmacotherapyUS.html#maoi
(I do NOT agree with certain things stated here)
I have got many more here right next to me...I just got to run...let me know how you go with these!A final word from a fellow psychobabbler!....
"I will never forget what one of the Godfathers of nardil told me, Dr. Fredick Quitken .... "Nardil works for 90% of patients, but only 25% of patients can stay on it and tolerate the side effects. "
Smith
NB- I actually think the s/effects can be managed! They can be a nuiscance at times though...
Ace:)
Posted by ace on May 11, 2008, at 23:22:29
In reply to Re: Nardil- The best AD ever......., posted by undopaminergic on May 10, 2008, at 2:59:15
> >
> >
> > Not a problem mate!...I have located the papers, will get them to you by Monday- I am just away from home at the moment....would I be able to grab your email?
> >
>
> I too might be interested in any good papers you have on the topic of MAOIs, so while you're at it, maybe you could provide (post, or send via the Babblemail feature) more specific details on what you have?Not a problem...I have a stack right near me now....I have files full of anectodes and MAOI trials (on all sorts of psychopathologies)....I have to get them all organized....
I just presented a couple, but I also have many many more (including some which are out of journals which can not be located on web)Let me know:)
Ace
Posted by ace on May 11, 2008, at 23:24:19
In reply to Re: nardil thoughts. why not to lower for maintenance » ace, posted by Phillipa on May 10, 2008, at 19:48:11
> Ace Chairman got blocked for a long time forget for what. Love Phillipa
Is Larry still around? Remeber Ross C, Djmmm, Csosis, Jumpy??....I havent seen these Nardil boys around for a while! Scot (SLS) is still posting?
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