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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 84. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on November 23, 2006, at 20:02:08
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by saturn on November 23, 2006, at 17:30:37
Happiness is just a evolutionary adaptation to try and get the organism to do what is deemed to be best.
It is impossable to achieve lasting happiness. It is an illusion that you can, thats why most of us are here, that is what keeps us going, the hope that you can gain control over ones own hedonic capacity. The illusion of free will.
The brain is so fundimentally flawed. It is wired with feedback loops on its feedback loops, it knows every trick in the book, it is always one step ahead, it cannot be outsmarted.
The brain will adjust to whatever you give it.
The only guarente in life is that whatever gives you happiness will eventually fade away. Happiness is only to "keep you going" just as an orgasm is to get you to procreate. Apparently, it is not in an ones best interest to remain happy.
I am not going to sit here and try to convince you that any drug will ever make you happy because I don't believe it is possable.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 1:56:21
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 23, 2006, at 20:02:08
> Happiness is just a evolutionary adaptation to try and get the organism to do what is deemed to be best.
Or, perhaps it is just meant to be a long-term distraction.
> It is impossable to achieve lasting happiness.Speaking for yourself, of course.
> It is an illusion that you can,
It is evident that others do achieve lasting happiness. This is what I see, anyway. Why look away?
> The brain is so fundimentally flawed. It is wired with feedback loops on its feedback loops, it knows every trick in the book, it is always one step ahead, it cannot be outsmarted.
Perhaps the key is not to try to outsmart it, but to force it to run the right program it already has the software for.
> The only guarente in life is that whatever gives you happiness will eventually fade away.
Not such a guarantee, I don't think. This is probably a function of choice. Of course, it helps to know what choices there are.
> Happiness is only to "keep you going" just as an orgasm is to get you to procreate.
So, then, you do see that happiness can persist.
> Apparently, it is not in an ones best interest to remain happy.
Of course it is. People who are happy live longer and better.
> I am not going to sit here and try to convince you that any drug will ever make you happy because I don't believe it is possable.
Perhaps this is not the right role to place a drug in. A drug does not create happiness, people do. However, a drug can facilitate one's brain to resume functioning in such a way as to allow for the creation of happiness.
There are incorrigibly happy people in this world. This, I can guarantee you. You ought to look into self-actualization. It's pretty cool.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 8:44:10
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 1:56:21
It is *impossable* to know that anyone else is actually happy. The only person one can really know is oneself.
I knew a girl who was so happy and bubbley. Everybody envied her go lucky attitude, and everybody wondered what she was so cheerful about. Nothing seemed to bother her, and her state of mind was everbodys goal.
Nobody knows why she did it.
And it was a lesson to me that you just don't know.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 13:10:15
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 8:44:10
> It is *impossable* to know that anyone else is actually happy.
Hmm.
Impossible?
That's too bad.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:42
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 13:10:15
Unless you have formed a telepathic connection to the subject in question it is impossable to tell if anyone else is happy or just faking it.
I fake it all the time.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2006, at 19:15:48
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:42
Me too and I bet I'm one of the sickest people on babble. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 20:54:28
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 24, 2006, at 14:28:42
> Unless you have formed a telepathic connection to the subject in question it is impossable to tell if anyone else is happy or just faking it.
I am extremely happy to report that I disagree.
- Scott
Posted by Jost on November 24, 2006, at 21:21:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 20:54:28
But you also don't know that the woman who seemed very happy wasn't happy at those moments.
Some people experience fluctuations in mood-- and the intense sadness or depression doesn't make the happiness or elation or hypomania (if you want to call it that) less real.
Both can be real. People can do self-destructive things impulsively-- when it doesn't account for a lot of their experience.
and you don't know what lies ahead. there may be the possibility of recovery, or even remission, in the future that you can't see, or believe in. It's possible-- we need to go on, and the knowledge that there is hope, even if we can't experience it at some times-- is important--
Beyond all other things, self-destruction is very hard, and I find that the only thing I can do that's constructive with the thought of it, is avoid that thought-- because it truly does make things worse, and absolutely doesn't make them better.
I know it can be hard, and maybe it seems as if it's some comfort, but I think that that comfort of the thought-- as well as the action-- comes at much, much too high a price.
So I'm glad on any day to feel that I've done something worthwhile, even if it's much harder, and not that close to what I want it to be. I can't always achieve that, but it always remains possible.
Jost
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 13:10:38
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 24, 2006, at 20:54:28
Well, apparently the laws of physics cease to exist in your part of the country. :)
I know what you are trying to say, but logically it is impossable to actually know if somebody is happy or just faking it. Nomatter how good you think you are at reading peoples emotions, there is no way to be 100% sure that the subject in question is not just a very good actor.
For all you know they could be a robot with no emotions. Plausable...no, possable..yes.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 13:12:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Jost on November 24, 2006, at 21:21:06
You underestimate people's ablity to alter their behavior just to "fit in".
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 14:27:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 13:12:56
> You underestimate people's ablity to alter their behavior just to "fit in".
Perhaps you underestimate people's ability to interact honestly and spontaneously.I was with some very happy people at a funeral today. Many of them were sad. I was too. I was happy to be there.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 15:00:43
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 14:27:06
>I was with some very happy people at a funeral >today.
You were with what appeared to be very happy people. Unless you are telepathic there is no way to know their true emotion.
It is absolutely impossable to know for 100% that these people were actually happy.
Every single aspect of what appears to be a happy emotion can be faked.
So, I reiterate, there is not way to know for 100% that a person is actually happy and just not faking it.
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:26
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 15:00:43
> >I was with some very happy people at a funeral >today.
>
> You were with what appeared to be very happy people. Unless you are telepathic there is no way to know their true emotion.
>
> It is absolutely impossable to know for 100% that these people were actually happy.
>
> Every single aspect of what appears to be a happy emotion can be faked.
>
> So, I reiterate, there is not way to know for 100% that a person is actually happy and just not faking it.
Gosh.I hope that the drugs I have chosen to take allow me to remain ignorant of the fact that the happiness I currently experience is a figment of my imagination. I'm glad to know that my brain can fake it to the extent to which it fools even me.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 17:15:47
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:26
Let me sum up what I am saying in one sentence.
If I know that I cannot trust the emotional impression I present, how do I know I can trust the impressions that others present?
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 17:42:24
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 25, 2006, at 17:15:47
> Let me sum up what I am saying in one sentence.
>
> If I know that I cannot trust the emotional impression I present, how do I know I can trust the impressions that others present?
That is a very honest and pointed question.I think that the more connections one makes with fellow human beings, the better one becomes at recognizing happiness. Of course, it helps to entertain the possibility that such a thing is possible in order to be receptive to perceiving it where it exists. You won't be right all of the time, but so what? For the most part, I think it is healthier to err on the side of believing that a person is happy rather than unhappy.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2006, at 19:22:39
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 17:42:24
Scott did I hear you say you were happy? Nardil is working? Love Jan
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 20:57:50
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2006, at 19:22:39
> Scott did I hear you say you were happy? Nardil is working? Love Jan
No, Nardil is not working - yet. Well, maybe a little. It is hard to tell. I feel better just to be recovering from my recent adverse reaction to Lyrica.
I find happiness despite my depression. It is an active process, not a passive one. It is the result of the decisions I make as I choose which cognitive steps to take on a moment by moment basis. I create my own path. It is a happy one. It is a matter of perspective. I have much to be grateful for. I live in a democratic country of personal freedoms with sufficient financial resources to maintain my independence and have a few toys to play with. I look for and find joys all around me. Life is good. Life is fun. I have as much of it as I can.
- Scott
Posted by mattdds on November 26, 2006, at 5:44:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 20:57:50
SLS,
These are some of the healthiest posts I've seen on this board for a while.
I think your implicit message is that beliefs about recovery (and I am strongly convinced these can be changed) play a very strong role in getting there.
The tone in your posts sounds very CBT-ish. I like it! Thanks for the reminder - I've been very lazy about this for about 2 years now. Luckily, a good part of the CBT work that I did 'stuck'.
I noticed your near-automatic countering of all-or-nothing thinking. I think the same way. No, I'm not beaming with eternal, uninterrupted bliss. Far from it. But I usually find that if I work at it, I can find enough satisfaction with things to be...err, satisfied.
Life is (now) worthwhile for me, and I have no reason to fake it.
Thanks again!
Matt
Posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 7:17:56
In reply to Err on the side of It's treatable » SLS, posted by mattdds on November 26, 2006, at 5:44:56
Thanks, Matt.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:52:58
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 17:42:24
I wouldn't err on the side of thinking a person is happy, because if they are, there is nothing bad will happen.
OTOH if you assume they are unhappy, then you might be able to help more people.My parents assume I am happy. Who could possably know me better than my parents? And if they are wrong, then.....
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:54:11
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 20:57:50
I don't see how happiness and depression can coexist, unless if you consider mood swings.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 15:30:47
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:52:58
> I wouldn't err on the side of thinking a person is happy, because if they are, there is nothing bad will happen.
I disagree. I think that having such an outlook will impact adversely the quality of life of the person who holds such a negative view, both mentally and physically. It must surely promote depression and cynicism, which in turn promotes heart disease and reduces immune system function.
> OTOH if you assume they are unhappy, then you might be able to help more people.
I understand what you are saying here. What if one were to become better able to recognize unhappiness just as they are able to recognize happiness? Then, they wouldn't have to resort to a default position such as erring on the side of believing that everyone is unhappy. Do you feel it is your duty in life to help everyone become happy or preventing everyone from committing suicide? If so, then you may well have chosen for yourself a noble profession for which I believe recognizing the existence of happiness might prove useful. Even if you do choose to be a mental health professional, I believe it is unhealthy to walk the streets assuming unhappiness in every face you come upon just so that you don't overlook a psychiatric emergency. You must maintain your own mental health before you can attend to the health of others. You will have to find balance.
> My parents assume I am happy. Who could possably know me better than my parents? And if they are wrong, then.....
I have no doubt that the people in your life have difficulty in recognizing your unhappiness. You say that your parents assume that you are happy. Do they assume this despite your attempts to communicate to them otherwise? What have you said to them?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 16:09:10
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:54:11
> I don't see how happiness and depression can coexist, unless if you consider mood swings.
I really can't speak for anyone but for myself. Depression is a beast of many faces, and I don't know if it is possible to be happy when staring into all of them.
I believe that happiness is the result of the way one thinks rather than the way one feels. Certainly, depression produces a force that tries to warp the way one thinks. This is where I think CBT can act as a coping tool. It can help with the recognition of, and compensation for, the cognitive distortions that are produced in the depressive state.
It is not an easy trick to pull off. However, the key is to make it a habit. I only wish that I could get myself to brush my teeth with such regularity.
Before I knew that my depression was biological, I was unhappy and suicidal. Once I understood that the biological feelings of depression were beyond my control and independent of thought, I was able to learn how to think happy and feel terrible. I decided long ago that it was better to be happy and miserable than to be unhappy and miserable.
What helped me was to conceptualize biological depression as a lack of reward and/or a preponderance of punishment. Before I knew there was such a thing as CBT, I was employing what I had learned about behaviorism in my college psychology 101 class regarding classical conditioning and operant learning to create a my own model of depression. It provided me with a conceptualization that allowed me to separate cognition from affect. I put this together and began to work with it over 20 years ago. It has been so long, that I don't realize when I do it anymore. Either it has become an integral part of my being, or I have just become less focused on performing the work, but I don't really think about it anymore.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2006, at 18:07:14
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 16:09:10
In a way it's acceptance and peace at what is? That's what it sounds like you're saying. Love Jan
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:45:23
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 15:30:47
>It must surely promote depression and cynicism, >which in turn promotes heart disease and reduces >immune system function.
If I was under the impresson that my interpretation of the world was accurate, I'd accept the natural consequences of coming to terms with reality.Linkadge
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