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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Michael D on April 16, 2004, at 10:59:24
In reply to Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD), posted by Ruru on April 15, 2004, at 21:28:47
Hi Ruru,
> Michael
> Thank you for the info. She was told at Menninger Hospital the best treatment was a trauma unit ASAP following the event.What is a trauma unit??
> She was abused 20 years ago, started with symptoms 4 years ago and has been in therapy since. We(her parents)did not know until last year.
> Have you had the EMDR therapy?
No, but my brother has. It is fast becoming the primary form of trauma therapy.
The other major form of trauma therapy is abreactive therapy - more feeling focused. Seeing as you seem very interested, I would recomend reading the following books:
Scattered Minds: it's a book about ADD, but I find some of the information to be very helpful for PTSD.
I take for granted that your daughter is very knowledgable about abuse and healing. If she isn't one of the best things for her - and you - to do is read about it. A good beginner's book is "Breaking down the walls of silence" by Alice Miller.
There are many other good books specific to sexual abuse.
Your daughter may want to join
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Primal-Support-Group/
It's a support group for those going through Primal therapy. Primal therapy is an abreactive (feeling) psychotherapy. There are other sexual abuse victims there who have experience working through their trauma.Lastly, I'd like to recommend, as an adjunct to the above, that you and/or your daughter read "Making Sense of Suffering" by Konrad Stettbacher and "Cure by crying" by Thomas Stone.
The four steps in "Making Sense of Suffering", in particular, are important to understand.
> Sorry for saying this but it really sounds too simple to be real.
I sort of think so too. This is why I am biased towards abreactive therapies.
I'm really sceptical about any psychiatrist who thinks the primary treatment for trauma is medication or cognitive behavioural therapy.
Michael
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 17, 2004, at 10:50:10
In reply to Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD), posted by Michael D on April 16, 2004, at 10:59:24
> I would recomend reading the following books:
>
> Scattered Minds: it's a book about ADD, but I find some of the information to be very helpful for PTSD.
>
> I take for granted that your daughter is very knowledgable about abuse and healing. If she isn't one of the best things for her - and you - to do is read about it. A good beginner's book is "Breaking down the walls of silence" by Alice Miller...
>
> Lastly, I'd like to recommend, as an adjunct to the above, that you and/or your daughter read "Making Sense of Suffering" by Konrad Stettbacher and "Cure by crying" by Thomas Stone.
>
> The four steps in "Making Sense of Suffering", in particular, are important to understand.I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Ruru on April 17, 2004, at 21:17:50
In reply to Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD), posted by Michael D on April 16, 2004, at 10:59:24
Michael
Thanks for the follow-up. I know she has read several books but I intend to read some of your recommendations. I tend to get mixed up on the names of the different therapies but keep seeking information. She is a psychology grad student and is way above my head. She has been at Menninger Clinic twice and they seem to help the most but very costly! I hope your brother is doing well.
God Bless
Ruru
Posted by karen_kay on April 21, 2004, at 21:45:49
In reply to Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD), posted by shadows721 on April 2, 2004, at 18:58:07
i just had to say, thank you for this.
it took me a while to get around to saying it, and for that i'm sorry. but, this post caused me to see things differently.
really, i just want to say thank you for this. and i think it's honestly time for me to shine. thanks for pointing it out, better than any therapist could. thanks again for this post. and thanks to the person who pointed it out to me. it's really a shame i would have missed it without her. i only wish she would read it the same way i do. perhaps i'll teach her how to? and she'll she that she shines far brighter than she ever realizes.... sorry, didn't mean to take over here. just trying to let someone know how much i honestly admire her. and this will end my little love poem. but again, thank you.
Posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 15, 2004, at 8:15:25
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Laura915 on March 30, 2004, at 8:17:56
In taking your aminos, do you take all of them (tryptophan, Dl-phenylalanine, etc) at the same time or do you take the Tryptophan (for example) a few hours before the others to prevent the aminos competing with each other just as they might if you took them with a protein meal? Also ow long did you take the aminos for when tapering the Klonopin and do you still take them? 300mg Tryptophan seems pretty high! But I'm glad it's worked for you!
Posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 15, 2004, at 9:31:48
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Laura915 on March 30, 2004, at 8:17:56
Here are some more detailed questions re your use of amino acids for Klonopin (I'm trying to withdraw from Valium) - hope you can help!
1. You mention taking divided doses for L-tryptophan* - 3000 mgs/day; DL-Phenylanine - 1500 mgs/day; L-Glutamine - 1000 mgs/day; L-theanine - 2000 mgs/day; GABA - 1500 mgs/day. Could you be more specific? Did you take these in divided doses three times daily or two times daily and, if so, did you just divide the total taken by the number of times (e.g. 3000 mg Tryptophan = 1,000 mg x 3 daily). Also, did you find specific times of the day more helpful than others for each divided dose?
2. How long was your Klonopin tapering schedule from beginning to cessation? I am currently taking 30 mg Valium (10 mg x 3) daily and the tapering guidelines I've read suggest that I should taper very slowly (minimum 6 months). However, I stopped taking Luvox (prescribed 5 years ago to help me lower and taper Valium but didn't work) about 8 months ago (though I had to increase my Valium from 10 mg to 30 mg daily for withdraal symptoms) and I still have occasional Luvox withdrawal problems though they've subsided considerably.
I really learned a lot from your post and I'm very happy that you found a successful method for tapering the Klonopin.
Posted by Laura915 on May 17, 2004, at 9:33:09
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 15, 2004, at 8:15:25
From my research, the amino acids I was combining have certain properties that complement or boost the effectiveness of each other. For example, DL-Phenylalanine and a B-complex vitamin boosts the effectiveness of the L-Tryptophan.
I don't take the higher dosages any longer. During my tapering process and the month after total withdrawal I did, but now I take less than half of that original dosage. It's best to try it and seek your own best levels. It is not an exact science and you may need less for effectiveness. I started at such a high dosage of Klonopin and I wanted to aggressively taper so the higher dosages of amino acids helped me.
> In taking your aminos, do you take all of them (tryptophan, Dl-phenylalanine, etc) at the same time or do you take the Tryptophan (for example) a few hours before the others to prevent the aminos competing with each other just as they might if you took them with a protein meal? Also ow long did you take the aminos for when tapering the Klonopin and do you still take them? 300mg Tryptophan seems pretty high! But I'm glad it's worked for you!
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2004, at 0:01:14
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 15, 2004, at 8:15:25
> In taking your aminos...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding amino acids to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040418/msgs/348008.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Ole Olsen on May 22, 2004, at 12:13:58
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Ole Olsen on May 22, 2004, at 11:49:32
Hi Laura, it's nice to see someone who is using aminos successfully to come of the benzos. I have a Ph.D. in experimental medicine so I'm not a medical doctor but I have the ability and knowledge to thoroughly research the biochemisty behind these drugs etc etc. However, my limitation is the physiological effect these agents will have. As far as my own research goes the aminos are very well tolerated with minimal toxicity even at very high doses except for a few such as 5HTP and GABA which are very potent and need to be used at low starting doses. My wife has been on klonopin at 1 mg/day for 3 years and we are now trying to get her off the drug. She started by reducing her dose to 0.5 mg once day followed a few hours later with 500 mg tyrosine, 2500 mg glutamine, and in the afternoon 2 cups of strong green tea (L-theanine). She also does a 20 minute aerobic workout once a day. Her withdrawl symptoms have generally been mild and non debilitating. I've thought of adding GABA to her regimen and noted that you used GABA to help your withdrawl symptoms but I am concerned about the mechanism of action of the klonopin as it makes the GABA receptor "stick" tighter to the GABA and for a longer period of time. My question is were you still taking a lower dose of klonopin when taking the GABA etc or did you stop the drug and replace it with the supplements. Also, what dose of GABA did you take (mgs per Kgs body weight) and was it before or after taking your dose of klonopin? Also, you may wish to add taurine to your supplement list as this agent stimulates neurons to make so-called low affinity GABA receptors.
Thanks
Ole
Posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 24, 2004, at 4:38:39
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Ole Olsen on May 22, 2004, at 12:13:58
Hi Ole,
I can't comment on several issues you raised and will leave that for Laura. However, I have some comments on GABA.
It seems that Laura is not the only one to use GABA successfully for benzo withdrawal (see Dr.Bob post by Gabbix2 pasted in below). I have also found that Julia Ross (author of The Mood Cure) has used GABA along with taurine (which you recommended), inositol, and glycine for Klonopin detox of a client of hers along with careful monitoring by a physician (The Mood Cure, pg.220-21). She recommends that use of aminos be accompanied by monitoring by a physician. I also discovered that Dr.Eric Braverman (PATHMED) uses GABA along with other aminos (e.g. tarurine & Glycine)for benzo withdrawal and theanine (used by Laura) was recommended to me by one of his nutritionists in a telephone consultation. It's important to note that Dr.Braverman also uses the drugs Depakote or Gabapentin as adjuncts in withdrawal.
I don't know if this answers your question about the "mechanism of action" re GABA and Klonopin but GABA does seem to work for a number of people. I have begun using it in my own tapering/withdrawal initiative.
Good luck!
Jamie
p.s. Below is the post last year by Gabbix2 re use of GABA with aminos and inositol.[ Thread | Post follow-up | Start new thread | Psycho-Babble Alternative | Framed | FAQ ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: natural alternative to a benzo? « Gabbix2
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 22:47:23In reply to Re: Viridis, Re: Is there a natural alternative to a , posted by Gabbix2 on September 4, 2003, at 20:29:46
> Taking gaba with B complex, 1200mgs inositol and a free form amino acid complex helps increase its absorption.
> I used it last year when withdrawing from Klonopin, it did have a noticeable effect;
> Certainly far moreso than anything else I tried like Kava Kava, or valerian.
> Inositol is contraindicated though if you are bi-polar as apparently it can induce mania.
>
> I don't know what using the gaba combination is like on an ongoing basis for anxiety, it was too difficult for me to get, I can't buy it in Canada.
> I found my benzo fears to be unfounded
> so I'm back on them, but the gaba it did help.
> I just thought I'd pass that along.
> Good luck
>
Posted by Laura915 on May 24, 2004, at 9:05:24
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Ole Olsen on May 22, 2004, at 12:13:58
I did take GABA while lowering my Klonopin dosages, but not at high levels. I titrated the dosage up as I reduced the Klonopin. After I was completely off of the Klonopin I found the GABA to be even more noticably effective. I started with 500 mgs (I'm 100#) and took as much as 1500 mgs in divided doses. Now I only take 500 mgs at night. I took taurine with it at one point but found I was more jittery than without (probably a personal biochemical reaction). I am glad your wife is trying this route to avoid using another Rx to get off of an Rx which is what was recommended by my doctor.
> Hi Laura, it's nice to see someone who is using aminos successfully to come of the benzos. I have a Ph.D. in experimental medicine so I'm not a medical doctor but I have the ability and knowledge to thoroughly research the biochemisty behind these drugs etc etc. However, my limitation is the physiological effect these agents will have. As far as my own research goes the aminos are very well tolerated with minimal toxicity even at very high doses except for a few such as 5HTP and GABA which are very potent and need to be used at low starting doses. My wife has been on klonopin at 1 mg/day for 3 years and we are now trying to get her off the drug. She started by reducing her dose to 0.5 mg once day followed a few hours later with 500 mg tyrosine, 2500 mg glutamine, and in the afternoon 2 cups of strong green tea (L-theanine). She also does a 20 minute aerobic workout once a day. Her withdrawl symptoms have generally been mild and non debilitating. I've thought of adding GABA to her regimen and noted that you used GABA to help your withdrawl symptoms but I am concerned about the mechanism of action of the klonopin as it makes the GABA receptor "stick" tighter to the GABA and for a longer period of time. My question is were you still taking a lower dose of klonopin when taking the GABA etc or did you stop the drug and replace it with the supplements. Also, what dose of GABA did you take (mgs per Kgs body weight) and was it before or after taking your dose of klonopin? Also, you may wish to add taurine to your supplement list as this agent stimulates neurons to make so-called low affinity GABA receptors.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ole
Posted by fanarokt on May 24, 2004, at 20:43:07
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 15, 2004, at 9:31:48
i have been taking klonopin for a couple of months but plan to switch back to a mood stabilizer i took previously. i have been taking 2-6mg per day depending on what i needed. i will problely keep the klonopin for melt-downs but i am interested in how long it will take to get out of my system. also how bad the withdrawals will be. sex is the main reason for the drop on this med. it kills everything and i don't need that right now. any answers from experience would be appricated. thanks
Posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 25, 2004, at 5:33:04
In reply to Klonopin half lives, posted by fanarokt on May 24, 2004, at 20:43:07
Fanarokt,
If I recall correctly, Klonopin's half-life varies from 18-50 hours. The half-life is the "time taken for the blood concentration to fall to half its initial value after a single dose" (Prof.Ashton, p.5). Professor Ashton's manual, 'Benzodiazepines - How They Work and How to Withdraw'is available at www.benzo.org.uk. The manual is excellent re withdrawal but doesn't cover aids such as aminos.
Jamie
Posted by Ole Olsen on May 25, 2004, at 11:14:42
In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » Ole Olsen, posted by Laura915 on May 24, 2004, at 9:05:24
Thanks Laura. I thought it would be relatively safe for my wife to take GABA while still using a small dose of klonopin but the problem with the aminos is getting the dosage right. You did exactly what I thought I would have my wife do which is to start at 500 mgs daily and titrate up if needed.
Ole
Posted by fanarokt on May 25, 2004, at 21:57:49
In reply to Re: Klonopin half lives, posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 25, 2004, at 5:33:04
thanks jamie that really helped
Fanarokt,
>
> If I recall correctly, Klonopin's half-life varies from 18-50 hours. The half-life is the "time taken for the blood concentration to fall to half its initial value after a single dose" (Prof.Ashton, p.5). Professor Ashton's manual, 'Benzodiazepines - How They Work and How to Withdraw'is available at www.benzo.org.uk. The manual is excellent re withdrawal but doesn't cover aids such as aminos.
>
> Jamie
Posted by rutt on May 27, 2004, at 12:26:28
In reply to Re: Klonopin half lives » Jamie Baulsch, posted by fanarokt on May 25, 2004, at 21:57:49
Hi everyone,
I've been on klonopin for 3 years now(panic and anxiety) at 2mg a day-now I'm down to .5 a day. I'm having a hard time stopping the med completely. I'm not sure if it's my psychological or physical dependence at this point thats stopping me. 0.5 is a low dose, and I'm not sure if it is even doing anything at this point. My life is hectic right now-new job, schedual, insomnia, so my anxiety is pretty high. I probably should increase my dose, but I don't want to lose ground in withdrawl. Anyone have any input?
russ
Posted by Ole Olsen on May 27, 2004, at 13:29:57
In reply to withdrawl, posted by rutt on May 27, 2004, at 12:26:28
Hi Russ, in my earlier post I mentioned that my wife is down from 1.0 mg daily to 0.5 mg daily and is taking 2500 mg L-glutamine, 500 mg L-tyrosine, 2 cups of strong green tea (L-theanine) and exercising 20 mintues daily. The supplements are truly helping her withdrawl as there was one episode where she stopped the glutamine for 2 days and suffered a mild but real acute anxiety episode which disappeared when she resumed the glutamine. So, I'd suggest trying a similar supplementation with glutamine but I wouldn't try the tyrosine if you are prone to panic attacks as there is literature that tyrosine might increase the chance of panic attacks. Also, Laura915 suggested that she was taking up to 1500 mg daily of GABA when she stopped the drug completely and is now down to a maintenance dose of 500 mg daily so you could probabaly add that as well. However, I would not take the glutamine at the same time as the GABA but a different times of the day, glutamine in the morning and GABA in the evening or before going to sleep. Hope this helps.
Ole
Posted by rutt on May 27, 2004, at 19:44:12
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by Ole Olsen on May 27, 2004, at 13:29:57
Thanks for the information Ole. I appreciate the information. I have never heard of these supplements- would I get them in a health food store or vitamin shop?
russ
Posted by Ole Olsen on May 28, 2004, at 11:15:49
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by rutt on May 27, 2004, at 19:44:12
Most health food or vitamin stores will have these items but sometimes not exactly what you're looking form. Go online and search the names of the supplements and you'll find 1000's of hits, I've been buying products from NOW (http://www.nowcatalog.com/)or Life extension foundation (http://www.lef.org/)as they are apparently USP (pharmaceutical grade). Also, be sure to take a good multivitamin since the various vitamins are cofactors for the proper metabolism of these supplements, especially B6. Good luck and let me know how it goes.
Ole
PS remember I'm not a medical doctor but I'm a scientist with biological training so what I've said is a suggestion only. If you can afford it make an appointment with a naturopathic doctor that prefereably has a standard MD as I've found they are the most knowledgable re prescription drugs and natural alternatives.
Posted by rutt on May 28, 2004, at 17:31:21
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by Ole Olsen on May 28, 2004, at 11:15:49
thanks again ole- Has anyone on this board had a problem with dizziness/vertigo? I'm very uncomfortable and I wonder if its from the klonopin. I've been on it for 3 years with on and off dizziness at 2mg/day-I'm on .5 now and for the last 2 weeks have been experiencing vertigo, and strange perceptual sensations. Does anyone have a theory?
Russ
Posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 29, 2004, at 4:43:28
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by rutt on May 28, 2004, at 17:31:21
Rutt,
It's very important for you to try to become familiar with withdrawal and tapering symptoms. Go to www.benzo.org.uk and download Professor Ashton's manual on benzodiazepines or get a book or other information on withdrawal. This web site has a great deal of valuable information. You will then be able to identify the experiences you are having more effectively as withdrawal related or not.The feelings and sensations we have during tapering and withdrawal include a wide range of physical and psychological symptoms and these can also vary from individual to individual. If you educate yourself you will have a better understanding of what is happening to you. This may increase your comfort level in the sense that you may be less inclined to worry about some of the feelings/sensations you have because you will realize that they are a normal part of withdrawal.
Good luck,
Jamie
Posted by rutt on May 29, 2004, at 21:42:55
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 29, 2004, at 4:43:28
Jamie,
Thanks for the imput. I am familiar with the benzo withdrawl literature-that's why I am concerned about my dizziness/vertigo. I have been withdrawing very slowly and carefully. I have been stalling at .5 for a couple of months now, so I don't think my symptoms are withdrawl related.
Has anyone heard of prolonged use of klonopin causing dizziness/vertigo?
concerned,
Russ
Posted by snapper on May 29, 2004, at 22:18:40
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by rutt on May 29, 2004, at 21:42:55
> Jamie,
> Thanks for the imput. I am familiar with the benzo withdrawl literature-that's why I am concerned about my dizziness/vertigo. I have been withdrawing very slowly and carefully. I have been stalling at .5 for a couple of months now, so I don't think my symptoms are withdrawl related.
> Has anyone heard of prolonged use of klonopin causing dizziness/vertigo?
> concerned,
> RussAnything is possible, but also remember that for many the last bit of benzo withdrawl is usually the very hardest. I will also say this: I have heard ...that when withdrawing from benzos - the effects can be likend to the idea that something is very drastically wrong in your body when in fact it is either acute withdrawl or once off the drug, protracted withdrawl. In other words it can make you feel like a hypo-chondriac. Not saying you are because vertigo and dizziness are absolutly horrific in and of themselves- try going back up to 1 mg and see what happens if the vert and dizz. get better or subside then you will need to go on a much slower withdrawl. Hope this helps and good luck
snapper
Posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 30, 2004, at 5:15:54
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by rutt on May 29, 2004, at 21:42:55
Rutt,
Sorry, I forgot to address your dizziness/vertigo. When you say you are "familiar" with the withdrawal literature remember that the range of information is huge and you might not have mastered all of it. I certainly haven't and I am still learning. However, I have found references to dizziness and vertigo in relation to Klonopin either as due to withdrawal or as an "adverse effect." Of course, adverse effects may develop during withdrawal and not when you are taking a regular dose.
Re Klonopin's adverse effects on the CNS (central nervous system) these are some: " Other adverse reactions involving the CNS have included nystagmus, unsteady gait, slurred speech, dysarthria, vertigo, insomnia, and diplopia. Isolated reports of akinesia, hemiparesis, tremor, hypotonia, headache and choreiform movements have been received."(www.mentalhealth.com)
In view of the foregoing clear reference to vertigo ("unsteady gait" may be partly dizziness) and other references I have found to dizziness, it is quite possible that your problems are withdrawal related.
You could increase the dose, as was suggested, and see if these symptoms disappear. However, that could affect the progress you have made because you would have to taper down again. Two other suggestions I have are: 1) check with a physician to ensure that the dizzines/vertigo isn't due to some other problem 2) try taking some of the aminos mentioned and/or other supplements which might alleviate the symptoms.
Good luck,
Jamie
Posted by rutt on May 31, 2004, at 15:48:20
In reply to Re: withdrawl, posted by Jamie Baulsch on May 30, 2004, at 5:15:54
thanks jamie and snapper- I appreiciate the information and advice.
russ
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