![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by JohnB on January 30, 2000, at 13:40:29
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
Possible solution? (1)Buy for more time. (2) Call in a plumber to fix it. (3) Report that "It's been fixed".
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 15:47:16
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by JohnB on January 30, 2000, at 13:40:29
News Flash: I managed to work for 8 tracks of my Nanci Griffith "Storms" CD, which translates, I guess to about 20-15 minutes or so. There is actually a bit of floor showing now! Dirty floor, but floor. I am taking a break, and *hopefully* will go for another couple of rounds. It looks like we might have another snow day tomorrow, which buys me an extra day, cuz the super will be too busy with sidewalks and all to come look at my faucet.
Posted by torchgrl on January 30, 2000, at 21:23:18
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 15:47:16
You're one up on me--I didn't even get out of bed until about 4 in the afternoon. I'm taking Celexa these days, and seem to have not only have fallen into the utter apathy trap, but my anhedonia and inability to make decisions seem almost worse... Half the reason I didn't get up is that I couldn't decide what to do if I did get out of bed, so I just watched TV until I realised that I had a video that needed to be returned. So much for cleaning--wishing you luck, Noa! At least I still have some time before my dad comes...
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:46:02
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by torchgrl on January 30, 2000, at 21:23:18
What you describe is so many of my weekend days over the past few years. I argue with myself to get up, shower, and dress, and then I ask myself, "what for?".
I don't actually sleep that much anymore, so I am out of bed, but there is a lot of TV watching, lolling on the couch, perusing the newspaper (too distracted to read anything in depth, tho), and sitting at the computer to play games or go online.
Even tho I did get out this morning (I made myself go to the store before the snow/ice storm), and I did do a bit of cleaning (a small dent in the huge landfill that is the interior of my apartment), I am still in my pj's and have been continuosly since Friday night. I simply put a trenchcoat over my pj's to go to the store. Needless to say, I haven't bathed, either. Of course, it doesn't matter much, since there is no sweating to be done here, because this place is freezing. My heat is not working up to par, but of course, I haven't had anyone come fix it, because, uh, well, you know the story...
Lucky me, tomorrow is another day in. School is closed due to the storm.
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:47:14
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:46:02
Torch, I meant to ask, do you attribute your lethargy to the Celexa, to your depression, or what?
Is your mood low, too? Or is it just numbness?
Posted by torchgrl on January 31, 2000, at 1:19:40
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:47:14
> Torch, I meant to ask, do you attribute your lethargy to the Celexa, to your depression, or what?
>
> Is your mood low, too? Or is it just numbness?Well, the odd thing (to me) about Celexa is that I noticed an effect within a couple of DAYS of starting at 10 mg (now I've been on 20 mg/day for nearly a week). I wouldn't call the feeling "contendedness"...and "apathy" has negative connotations for me, but it's somewhere in there. No mood. Not exactly happy, not unhappy, not motivated to do anything--I suppose that's why it's so difficult to make decisions (like it wasn't before!ha!); I just don't care one way or the other. Good, in that I'm not lying around stressing about all the things I'm not doing, but bad in that I'm still not doing them, either. I still retain the need to do things, but it's a tiny little, barely audible voice that says "you've just wasted another weekend of your life" etc, and still doesn't supercede the "whatever..." feeling. (I'm going to have to make myself pretend to care about the mess around here soon!) So the depression has lifted, but so has everything else! I have to remind myself to be disconcerted, but I know it's not a good thing--I'm just hoping this is temporary.
It would be more tolerable if the anhedonia were gone as well, but it's not. I went out with coworkers after work on Friday, only because I couldn't decide if I wanted to go or not and so I just went because everyone was going, and stood around for about an hour, and it was fine, but I wouldn't say I had fun or enjoyed it. It was there, I was there, and then I left. Now there's a life! I mean, I'm not crying at commercials anymore, but I think I'd be hard pressed to cry if my whole family died right now. Where to draw the line... Like I said, I'm hoping this is short-lived, because my life isn't going ANYWHERE like this, and I can't even be bothered to feel particularly upset about it...
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 6:25:27
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by torchgrl on January 31, 2000, at 1:19:40
Torchgirl, I have had similar experiences. For me, it is that the tortured feelings go away, but I am still not interested in stuff, still not motivated, etc. I think to a certain extent, it is a process, a matter of time. But also, there is work to do in therapy. I also am aware of my intense anxiety and avoidance thereof, about investing any interest or energy or hope in my life. I also think I have been in this non-existence of a life for so long that I have forgotten how to make life happen. But it is the anxiety that is most operative, I think. I am terrified of hoping things will improve because I feel certain deep down inside that I will just relapse into a major depression again. Why bother?
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 9:53:42
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 6:25:27
Ok, I hope you guys dont get turned off by the tediousness of my play-by-play, but logging in helps me get the job done.
Today is another snow day, a day of reprieve. Yesterday I got 25 minutes worth of cleaning done, producing two large trash bags that I discarded outside for trash pick up this morning. It also produced two huge recycling bags of plastic and glass bottles, and two bags of newspapers, which will all go out tomorrow for pick up. There are only like a gazillion more newspapers. Oh well.
I coulda shoulda done more, but kept avoiding, which as you know, I am very good at.
So now it is another day.
My plan right now: Tackle the bathroom. Afterall, that is where the super will spend the most time, and it is grossness exemplified.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Posted by Cass on January 31, 2000, at 12:05:49
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 6:25:27
> Torchgirl, I have had similar experiences. For me, it is that the tortured feelings go away, but I am still not interested in stuff, still not motivated, etc. I think to a certain extent, it is a process, a matter of time. But also, there is work to do in therapy. I also am aware of my intense anxiety and avoidance thereof, about investing any interest or energy or hope in my life. I also think I have been in this non-existence of a life for so long that I have forgotten how to make life happen. But it is the anxiety that is most operative, I think. I am terrified of hoping things will improve because I feel certain deep down inside that I will just relapse into a major depression again. Why bother?
Noa, Sometimes when you write a post, it seems like you are describing me. I notice that others have said the same thing. I appreciate your posts. They make me feel less alone.
Cass
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:09:10
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 9:53:42
> Ok, so now I am answering my own posts. Oh well.
I just finished part of the bathroom. Shoveled a ton of trash off the floor, tried to separate out laundry from trash (I might have lost a few items there), and scrubbed the sink and the area around it.
As I was thus engaged, my thoughts floated around about how the hell I ever let it get this bad. I think I might have a bad case of "depressed perfectionism." I mean, that I am a bit obsessive about wanting it to be perfectly clean, but feel so overwhelmed and so lacking in confidence in my ability to meet my own standards, that I just give up altogether. And once it gets to be too big of a problem, well, then it IS overwhelming by anyone's standards. At that point it seems pointless to do a little cleaning, because it hardly makes a dent. It is very rigid thinking, I know.
For example, just now I was cleaning the sink. Now, mind you my goal today is to do enough cleaning not to get myself evicted. But I pulled up the blind in the bathroom window for light, and then noticed how filthy the window sill, etc. was, so I cleaned that. Ok, no big deal, not a major detour. But my MIND starts in with the obsessiveness: I notice the dirt between the screen and window, and start thinking about how if I want the windows open, I will have to clean that thoroughly. Then, I think about how dirty the screen itself must be, and imagine taking it out and bringing it outside for a scrub and hosing down. I said to myself, don't be ridiculous, there is more dirt in here than would come in because of the window being open. But my obsessive mind stirs up this anxiety anyway.
I was never really that afflicted with OCD, not overtly anyway. I don't have rituals. And I wouldn't have been characterized by people who know me as afraid of dirt. It is just a covert sort of thing my mind does and my reaction is to withdraw and give up.
This is the process that used to happen when I was a kid and had to write for school-through college, actually. I would freeze up, give up, get overwhelmed. My mind would edit words before they even reached my pen, so I couldn't write at all. (Hah! Look at me now, you can't shut me up!!) This eventually subsided after college and when I went to graduate school in my late twenties.
But the brain process is the same, I think.
Any thoughts?
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:12:06
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Cass on January 31, 2000, at 12:05:49
Thank you, Cass. I feel less alone knowing you can relate to these experiences, too.
Posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 12:45:03
In reply to DP's Lair--The Tedious Play By Play, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:09:10
*** The thing to do is to throw out the concept of "cleaning"
and replace it with the concept of "dirt reduction". The notion of "cleaning" seems to treat cleanliness as an end in itself, as an absolute (viz., a moral absolute: "cleanliness is next to Godliness, et cetera). A more rational way to go about it is to conceptualize "cleaning" as a means to a given end (which you have done already: not getting evicted); the problem shifts from "How do I get the place clean?" to "How clean do I have to get the place in order to avoid eviction"? This is the concept of dirt reduction. To put it in economic terms, it means a cost-benefit analysis; calculating how much a cost in energy-expenditure in cleaning is necessary to "purchase" immunity from eviction. The idea, then, is a) NOT to get the place "clean", but to define the level of messiness at which eviction will no longer be a risk and to reduce the mess *to that level*. This way of conceptualizing the problem helps not only to avoid unnecessary effort on your part (does the plumber really care if the place is dazzling with polished brilliance?), but helps to define a more "doable" task by providing an easy way to know when you're being "over-perfectionistic". The latter amounts to no more than making more of an effort than you have to to attain a goal.-Kev
Posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 12:45:58
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
Boy can I relate to that!!! The builder of my condo (which Is 6 yrs. old) has to come back to make some changes to the heating and cooling system to bring it up to code. They left a msg on my machine to tell me when they were coming and I called and told them I needed at least 48 hours notice. Well they came the following weekend, without calling first and I played possum for 3 hours because my place was such a disaster!!!! They tried agian this weekend and I told them, not unless they have an appointment, which they didn't have. This has been going on for a month.
So I'm right there with ya girl!!
Claudea
> Some of you have read my previous posts about the filthy and chaotic state of my apartment, which overwhelms me, disturbs me, disgusts me, yet I haven't been able to change it.
>
> Well, a new development. The bathroom sink tap is broken, and the cold water has a small, but perpetual and utterly annoying and shamefully wasteful, stream of running water emanating from it. When it broke I told my self I would get my apartment cleaned up so the condo guy could come fix it, because I certainly cannot let anyone see my apartment as it is. I am afraid word would get back to the owner of my unit who would evict me, and for that matter, having the condo managemnt know how I keep the place would be bad, too, because it is certainly not in keeping with the mores of the community.
>
> Well, I got a call from the condo manager, who said that my downstairs neighbor reported hearin running water. They wanted to come check it out yesterday. I called to let them know what the running water is, that it isn't a burst pipe or anything, and could they come after the weekend, because the place is a mess and I want to clean it up. He called yesterday and said yes.
>
> So now I have til Monday to clean up enough of this place so I don't get myself kicked out. Can I accomplish this goal? I feel a lot of pressure, which for some people is motivating and activating, but for me can send me into denial and avoidance.
>
> In the immortal words of our beloved Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!"
>
> Or, better yet, "AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"
Posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 12:56:09
In reply to Re: DP's Lair--The Tedious Play By Play, posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 12:45:03
Kev---
That sounds like lawyer or consultant talk......so which do you fess up to being???
Claudea
> *** The thing to do is to throw out the concept of "cleaning"
> and replace it with the concept of "dirt reduction". The notion of "cleaning" seems to treat cleanliness as an end in itself, as an absolute (viz., a moral absolute: "cleanliness is next to Godliness, et cetera). A more rational way to go about it is to conceptualize "cleaning" as a means to a given end (which you have done already: not getting evicted); the problem shifts from "How do I get the place clean?" to "How clean do I have to get the place in order to avoid eviction"? This is the concept of dirt reduction. To put it in economic terms, it means a cost-benefit analysis; calculating how much a cost in energy-expenditure in cleaning is necessary to "purchase" immunity from eviction. The idea, then, is a) NOT to get the place "clean", but to define the level of messiness at which eviction will no longer be a risk and to reduce the mess *to that level*. This way of conceptualizing the problem helps not only to avoid unnecessary effort on your part (does the plumber really care if the place is dazzling with polished brilliance?), but helps to define a more "doable" task by providing an easy way to know when you're being "over-perfectionistic". The latter amounts to no more than making more of an effort than you have to to attain a goal.
>
> -Kev
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 13:32:34
In reply to Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 12:56:09
> Kev---
>
I like this pragmatism. It makes sense. But that is just it. No matter how much rational talk I give myself, it is the IRrational parts of my brain that object, that cause me the anxiety.But I'll add your model to my bag of tricks, and try to use it.
Thanks.
Posted by torchgrl on January 31, 2000, at 13:52:54
In reply to DP's Lair--The Tedious Play By Play, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:09:10
I can totally relate to the perfectionist stuff--that's my whole theory on my cleaning issues, amongst other things. Once I start, I can't just sweep the floor, I get down and scrub at every little black mark on the linoleum. I have a very hard time letting things slide once I start, but once I start thinking about the immensity of the situation, and the likelihood of my getting things *perfectly* clean, I just can't even begin to approach it at all. I can't just throw away all the newspapers, I have to go through them, regardless of their age, and weed out the things I'd be interested in, and set them aside to read--like I'm ever going to get around to doing that!--so I just leave them where they are. I know this affects all areas of my life ("if I can't do _____ perfectly, why bother doing it at all"), and it's more of a therapy thing than a med thing, but it's something I've never been able to change about my thought process, and which probably keeps me from doing anything useful with my life at all. I must be perfect, but I know I can't be perfect, so I avoid any active demonstration of my lack of perfection, that kind of thing... It's not an OCD thing, though, I think it's an entirely different issue, part of that "black & white thinking" often characteristic of depression.
Posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 14:04:15
In reply to Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 12:56:09
> Kev---
>
> That sounds like lawyer or consultant talk......so which do you fess up to being???
>***I am a sociologist. The reason I come up with stuff like this is because the theoretical object of sociology is non-rational action, that is to say defined negatively against rational action (as defined in terms of utilitarian theories of action such as classical economics). So constructing rational models of action is part of my theoretical activity; they represent the limiting cases which define the boundaries of my field of analytical objects. To make this somewhat more clear, an act may be defined as non-rational when it is pursued as an end in itself, as opposed to being regulated by means-end rationality. Non-rational acts, of course, are further distinguished by the level of organization whence their etiology is situated: individual or sociocultural. The former is the province of biology, psychiatry, neurology, etc. But the structure of non-rational acts is often pretty much the same: obsessive cleaning can find its underlying cause in either, say, psychopathology (OCD) or a religious ideology ("cleanliness is next to Godliness"). The two levels can also interact: disorders such as anorexia clearly have a psychopathological component, but the specific manifestation of the underlying pathology is clearly subject to the influence of an analytically independent class of social factors (e.g., cultural standards which equate beauty with thinness).
What was the question again?
-Kev
Posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 14:18:26
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 13:32:34
> > Kev---
> >
> I like this pragmatism. It makes sense. But that is just it. No matter how much rational talk I give myself, it is the IRrational parts of my brain that object, that cause me the anxiety.
>
> But I'll add your model to my bag of tricks, and try to use it.
>
> Thanks.****I will readily admit that I usually can't follow it myself. In your post you described freezing up while writing; my academic career has been crippled by the same problem. I definitely believe that this phenomenon is related to OCD; I get overwhelmed with anxiety when trying to write, and- in what seems to be an effort to make the anxiety go away- start ritualistically editing sentences, modifying paragraphs, and so forth. I also start experiencing unrealistic perceptions about my own writing; sentences which are grammatically and stylistically fine appear ugly and poorly formed, and then I compulsively start re-writing them. At this point, I am so tense that my back starts to hurt and I start getting extremely absent-minded. Interestingly, if I don't censure myself in this manner, after a while I start "brainstorming" and enter into a really classic hypomanic state; the articles I write end up being tangential, rambling, disorganized, but often brilliant.
Is it possible, I wonder, that OCD and hypomania are variants, at the level of actual behavior, of the same underlying phenomenon (an excess of neural energy) corresponding roughly to a distinction between "condensation" (OCD) and displacement (hypomania)????-Kev
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 14:18:52
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 14:06:33
One of the things I was talking to my therapist about just recently was the whole issue of my being so disorganized these past few years, concurrent with depression. What I realized is that 1) I am capable of organizing things and keeping them organized--I have done it in the past. 2)I don't keep things organized, even tho I wish I would. 3) Organization seems to me to be an effort that has no intrinsic value, but serves a utilitarian purpose, ie, it facilitates living. 4) Perhaps I cannot get or stay organized now because I am not ready to commit to living, and without that motivation, what use is the tool, organization.
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 14:33:28
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 14:18:52
Kev, I agree--there certainly seems to be a whole lot of neuron firing going on in both OCD and hypomania.
Check this out:
http://www.biologists.com/JEB/202/08/jeb1822.html
--chemical induction of OCD symptoms in a cockroach!!(BTW, I happen to know one of the authors).
Posted by torchgrl on January 31, 2000, at 14:37:11
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 14:18:52
> One of the things I was talking to my therapist about just recently was the whole issue of my being so disorganized these past few years, concurrent with depression. What I realized is that 1) I am capable of organizing things and keeping them organized--I have done it in the past. 2)I don't keep things organized, even tho I wish I would. 3) Organization seems to me to be an effort that has no intrinsic value, but serves a utilitarian purpose, ie, it facilitates living. 4) Perhaps I cannot get or stay organized now because I am not ready to commit to living, and without that motivation, what use is the tool, organization.
I like *having* things organised, I just have a VERY difficult time *maintaining* organisation. The funny thing is, I'm always finding myself in positions (at work, etc.) where people have me organise them, and I can do that, but when it comes to organising myself and KEEPING myself organised... well, the several-months-old stack of things "to be filed" on my coffee table speaks for itself. On the other hand, my large CD collection is still in alphabetical and chronological order, so... Maybe it really is telling of one's priorities in life!
I get overwhelmed REALLY easily, though, especially when there are decisions to be made, and I guess alphabetising CDs is pretty basic as far as that goes...
I try to approach at least the *tidying* aspect of the cleaning process (as opposed to the dirt/dust/grime aspect) from something like Kev's damage control model--this is easiest to do if there's a concrete reason why you need things tidier (i.e. all of our maintenance issues!). I kind of survey the scene, decide which aspects are most obviously offensive, prioritise them, and attack them one by one. Of course, this requires finding a way not to be overwhelmed by the general ambience of chaos around me, and just leaving! If I'm doing it because *I* need things tidier, then I guess the standards are more nebulous, so the only way for me to tell if I'm "finished" is when things are perfectly clean. I have a really hard time with open-endedness, I guess!
Posted by Abby on January 31, 2000, at 14:40:43
In reply to DP's Lair--The Tedious Play By Play, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:09:10
> > Ok, so now I am answering my own posts. Oh well.
>
> I just finished part of the bathroom. Shoveled a ton of trash off the floor, tried to separate out laundry from trash (I might have lost a few items there), and scrubbed the sink and the area around it.
>
> As I was thus engaged, my thoughts floated around about how the hell I ever let it get this bad. I think I might have a bad case of "depressed perfectionism." I mean, that I am a bit obsessive about wanting it to be perfectly clean, but feel so overwhelmed and so lacking in confidence in my ability to meet my own standards, that I just give up altogether. And once it gets to be too big of a problem, well, then it IS overwhelming by anyone's standards. At that point it seems pointless to do a little cleaning, because it hardly makes a dent. It is very rigid thinking, I know.
>
> For example, just now I was cleaning the sink. Now, mind you my goal today is to do enough cleaning not to get myself evicted. But I pulled up the blind in the bathroom window for light, and then noticed how filthy the window sill, etc. was, so I cleaned that. Ok, no big deal, not a major detour. But my MIND starts in with the obsessiveness: I notice the dirt between the screen and window, and start thinking about how if I want the windows open, I will have to clean that thoroughly. Then, I think about how dirty the screen itself must be, and imagine taking it out and bringing it outside for a scrub and hosing down. I said to myself, don't be ridiculous, there is more dirt in here than would come in because of the window being open. But my obsessive mind stirs up this anxiety anyway.
>
> I was never really that afflicted with OCD, not overtly anyway. I don't have rituals. And I wouldn't have been characterized by people who know me as afraid of dirt. It is just a covert sort of thing my mind does and my reaction is to withdraw and give up.
>
> This is the process that used to happen when I was a kid and had to write for school-through college, actually. I would freeze up, give up, get overwhelmed. My mind would edit words before they even reached my pen, so I couldn't write at all. (Hah! Look at me now, you can't shut me up!!) This eventually subsided after college and when I went to graduate school in my late twenties.
>
> But the brain process is the same, I think.
>
> Any thoughts?I know exactly how you feel. Occasionally I do massive cleaning binges and get tons of dust out, and they take three days. (That's when I live with others, and the place can't get too too bad.) Then, of course, even if I feel well I don't want to maintain it. Often, I find it very difficult to do a little cleaning in a lot of places. So I'll clean the countertops and start getting into the grooves of teh refridgerator, and, by the time I'm done, I can't bear to do more. I don't think that particular trait is obsessiveness as much as it's tangential thinking. There are all sorts of things you notice only after you start cleaning, and you can get distracted by them, losing sight of the bigger picture.
I've often had similar problems with writing. If even on the bad end of mildly depressed, the words don't come at all. At times when I feel most creative and inspired, it's almost on a level beneath words, and teh writing does not come well. Sometimes I can't write it, and other times I realize only later, that what I wrote was crap.
Abby
Posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 16:05:38
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 14:04:15
Ok---A philosopher..... :)
> > Kev---
> >
> > That sounds like lawyer or consultant talk......so which do you fess up to being???
> >
>
> ***I am a sociologist. The reason I come up with stuff like this is because the theoretical object of sociology is non-rational action, that is to say defined negatively against rational action (as defined in terms of utilitarian theories of action such as classical economics). So constructing rational models of action is part of my theoretical activity; they represent the limiting cases which define the boundaries of my field of analytical objects. To make this somewhat more clear, an act may be defined as non-rational when it is pursued as an end in itself, as opposed to being regulated by means-end rationality. Non-rational acts, of course, are further distinguished by the level of organization whence their etiology is situated: individual or sociocultural. The former is the province of biology, psychiatry, neurology, etc. But the structure of non-rational acts is often pretty much the same: obsessive cleaning can find its underlying cause in either, say, psychopathology (OCD) or a religious ideology ("cleanliness is next to Godliness"). The two levels can also interact: disorders such as anorexia clearly have a psychopathological component, but the specific manifestation of the underlying pathology is clearly subject to the influence of an analytically independent class of social factors (e.g., cultural standards which equate beauty with thinness).
>
> What was the question again?
>
> -Kev
Posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 16:09:26
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 14:18:52
> One of the things I was talking to my therapist about just recently was the whole issue of my being so disorganized these past few years, concurrent with depression. What I realized is that 1) I am capable of organizing things and keeping them organized--I have done it in the past. 2)I don't keep things organized, even tho I wish I would. 3) Organization seems to me to be an effort that has no intrinsic value, but serves a utilitarian purpose, ie, it facilitates living. 4) Perhaps I cannot get or stay organized now because I am not ready to commit to living, and without that motivation, what use is the tool, organization.
Can't agree more with that one!!!! But then again one thing that has kept me going is the thought of them finding me dead in such a disasteriously messy place.
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 16:21:50
In reply to Re: Kev---are you a consultant, or a lawyer????, posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 16:09:26
Claudeah, LOL.
Abby, I agree about the tangential thinking. It is related to difficulties with part/whole concepts, too. Being able to distinguish what is a part and what is the bigger picture is hard for me. When I do a project, it is like I jump into it, as though "it" is a pool of thought, ideas, parts and pieces, and I swim around pretty blindly, gasping for air until something creative comes out, but usually someone else has to rescue me and help me organize it into something others will understand, or rescue me from going too deep in one direction while neglecting the rest. BTW, sometimes, my office looks like that pool of chaos, papers strewn and all.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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