Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 566593

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Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid

Posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? Tamar, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 15:17:42

I think we have to be extremely sensitive when discussing other people's treatment.

For those of us who care very much about Daisy, it's hard to see her suffer. She doesn't deserve this. It hurts us to see her hurting because she's such a special, wonderful, kindhearted person.

But at the same time, I realize that the things that sometimes happen to us are just terrible. And vocalizing those things, after keeping them hidden for so long, can often be almost as terrible. It hurts, but it is not a hurt without a purpose. We can get better. And we will. Daisy WILL be better. I have every confidence.

I think that if Daisy's T knew a better way, or a different or faster way, he would want to implement that. He cares about Daisy too, after all he sees her quite a bit and I'm sure it hurts him to see her suffering. Daisy trusts him, and with good reason. We need to trust him, and trust Daisy, and just offer her all the support and hugs we can possibly muster. I am confident that Daisy's T is doing what is best. And I think sometimes she may need us to reassure her that we have confidence in both of them.

 

Ok I give up !!!

Posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15

I am sorry if my post offended anyone !!.

Everytime I try to post something different I get this kind of feedback !!.

And I think I repeat the same mistake again.

It was written in good spirits and maybe it is not obvious from my post, but I didn't mean it as a criticism.

And I don't see personally anything wrong in suggesting trying an alternative approach.

But every time I suggest it, people get offended.

So, I won't try to offer any suggestion.

But I do think, in addition to just giving support and saying we are sorry about the state of things, if we can think of something to make things better, even if it sounds not politcally correct, it is justified to say it. As long as the intention is not to hurt or criticize, I think we can offer different view points. And I honestly don't see why a suggestion to ask a therapist for any other alternative approach should be considered as wrong or insensitive or taken as criticizing.

But it has back fired too many times now.

And I don't want to do it anymore !!

 

Re: Ok I give up !!! orchid

Posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 18:27:56

In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46

I am sorry Orchid. I did not mean to frustrate you.

To be fair, Daisy has not replied, so I'm sorry if I made you feel bad.
Voce

 

Re: Ok I give up !!! orchid

Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 18:31:57

In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46

Dont take it personally, Orchid!

I think its good that you post different ideas. Im sure no one would think your intentions were anything but helpful.

It happens a lot on the boards that people disagree about the best way to look at things. I know people have disagreed with me frequently. It can feel a little uncomfortable, but of course if everyone agreed about everything, life would be very strange.

Your point of view is valid. And I think its really nice that you think about other peoples situations and want to help. Please dont feel discouraged. Youve been very caring and helpful to me (and others) many times. I wont forget it. So I hope you wont think of this occasion too much as backfiring; I really think its just a case of different people having different ideas about things. And a variety of ideas adds spice to life.

Its always good to see you posting.

Tamar


 

Re: My therapist hurt my feelings daisym

Posted by happyflower on October 14, 2005, at 21:39:23

In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03

Hi Daisy,
I am so sorry I am late in responding. I know how it feels to wanting some physical closeness and yet you can't have it. I didn't get it growing up as a child, and now my DH isn't giving it to me either. Sometimes you just want to be touched and held or hugged.
My T doesn't do hugs either, unless it is at the end of therapy treatment or a little kid or something. He got kinda irrtatated with me a long time ago when I asked him what he would do it I were to fall apart emotionally and start crying. I have never been in therapy before and I wanted to know what they do. He then went on to explain he would make me feel better by his words. Well in a way in kept me from losing it in his presence, maybe I needed to I am not sure, but I will try like h#ll not to fall apart if I know he is just going to look at me. I want a hug too, but it isn't going to happen ever. I admit it has kept me at a distance from him in a personal way, maybe it made me stronger, I am not sure yet. I don't know if anything I am saying helps, but I know what is is like to want to be hugged or held, and to have it withheld. It seems like I want it all the more, if I know I can't get it. :(

 

Re: My therapist hurt my feelings daisym

Posted by antigua on October 14, 2005, at 22:10:20

In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03

Hey, hope you'll take good care of yourself this weekend. The pain is enormous, I know, even though mine is not about my feelings for my T, but for a male authority figure that is never going to see me/help me in this way. It really feels like one hug will do it, but I will never get it. Why can't I get past it? Why can't I feel it for my T? She gives me hugs all the time, but they don't meet the need.
It is just so very, very frustrating. You were good to go back to talk again, it has to help.
love,
antigua

 

Re: Ok I give up !!! orchid

Posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 22:22:25

In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46

hi Orchid,
I like the advice you offer. I think you are always trying to think of how to fix things in a timely manner, thinking in a practical sense. Maybe it's because you're an engineer (I think you are -- am I getting that right? I think you do something technical, right? s/w, maybe?) I'm the same way, at least when it comes to giving advice to others. When it comes to ME, I'm hopelessly lost. :)

Anyway, I always appreciate your advice, so keep offering it to me, at least! :)

thanks,
JenStar

 

Re: My therapist hurt my feelings gardenergirl

Posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 23:59:06

In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings daisym, posted by gardenergirl on October 14, 2005, at 11:28:21

I agree -- ick. But I think I appreciate the fact that he won't let me run away and pretend like everything is OK. It is what we do here at home, after fights and it is what happened my whole life growing up -- everyone acted like everything was OK. So it is a learning experience for me.

still hurts though...

 

Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid

Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? Tamar, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 15:17:42

You ask good questions -- but I can tell you that my therapist doesn't want me to overcome these feelings, he wants us to work with them and understand them. He wants me to allow that I have feelings, good and bad, that I can't control and that have no purpose but just are part of me. I do what you are doing -- I probe for faster ways to "get through it" and I feel frustrated that I can't just "get over it." But trauma work, I am told, takes a long time and it is important to let all the parts and pieces have their say. I know that is really hard for people to understand sometimes.

I've used that "wallowing in the mud" expression, describing myself as full of self-pity, etc. The response is almost always that it is OK to want to be heard, that most people grow up never being heard. So saying stuff out loud, over and over again is really important.

I think it is all about which orientation you are using and whether it is short or long term therapy. I do understand that you are simply suggesting other options, but it is hard not to feel criticized. It isn't so much that I disagree with you as much as I agree totally with you about wallowing in it. It is just hard to hear it put like that and it is hard not to want to defend my therapist (even when I'm upset with him.) I think sometimes I get the feeling that you disapprove of his style and my dependency. Believe me, I'm working on it.

All that said, I appreciate the support you are always willing to offer.

 

Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? Tamar

Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:25:22

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:14

"It takes as long as it takes."

I wish I had a dime for everytime my therapist has said that to me. He would agree with everything you've said. I worry often that I'm taking too long or doing it all "wrong." It helps to hear that someone else kind of gets how we are doing therapy. It is complicated, isn't it?

 

Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? messadivoce

Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:29:27

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15

Wow -- thanks Voce...I don't deserve such a cheering section. Can I please borrow some of your confidence?

I think you are right, if there was an easier way that would work all this through, we would be using it. I have to have faith that my therapist knows what he is doing, because I surely don't.

I'll take those hugs too, btw.

 

Re: My therapist hurt my feelings happyflower

Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:35:11

In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings daisym, posted by happyflower on October 14, 2005, at 21:39:23

It always helps to know I'm not alone. It is so unusual for me to want physical comfort because I don't usually like my space invaded.

As far as crying, I felt like you feel about breaking down. But when it happened, and it did, it really was OK. I felt held emotionally and he was close by, but it wasn't like he was just watching. It is hard to explain. But some weeks I feel like all I do now is cry in therapy!

I think it helps that I can curl up in the corner of the couch, feet up, with lots of pillows so I'm not so exposed when crying.

Thanks for sharing. I hope you get what you need too.

 

Re: My therapist hurt my feelings antigua

Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:38:37

In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings daisym, posted by antigua on October 14, 2005, at 22:10:20

I'm sorry you understand these feelings so well. What is up with us, huh? That daddy complex I'm sure.

I'm working at hanging in there. Tonight is a tough night, long story. You take care too.
lv and hugs,
Daisy

 

Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings daisym

Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2005, at 7:55:55

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15

One reason I terminated T2 was that I could hear some of those thoughts in her questions. "Are you really better off than you were before you started therapy?" "Tell me what you were like before you started therapy." Then questions about why I continued to use negative coping skills.

Legitimate questions, I suppose, and ones I think of myself. But very hard to explain in terms of how I have improved, and how I haven't.

I think it's kind of usual even for professionals to have certain ideas about what therapy should and shouldn't be. Even if they say they approve of long term therapy, or supportive therapy. Because intense long term therapy does reveal vulnerabilities before it heals them, and sometimes it's hard to see how that can be helpful. And sometimes it reveals vulnerabilities and doesn't seem to be helping them.

With me, I explain that the helping, the growing, is at glaciar speed. It can't be rushed. Quick changes, in me, are not lasting ones. And maybe lasting changes are as simple as realizing I'm having problems and taking steps to mitigate them. Increasing my meds or whatever. Not exactly the stuff of therapy success stories.

But pretty significant to my own life.

What do I mean by this? I don't know.

I guess that it's ok to consider these questions from time to time in any therapy (which I know you do). But then to do what you, in your considered opinion, believe is best for you in the long run. Which is easier said than done, I know.

And then to realize that there are reasons people ask the questions. (And then to terminate therapists who ask them. Har har har.)

 

Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings Dinah

Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 22:40:27

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings daisym, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2005, at 7:55:55

I think what happens is that I hear so many opinions that I think I'm doing it wrong. I always think I should work harder, push through, make changes and face the world with a smile. Didn't someone say, "fake it 'til you make it?" We've talked about the shame that comes from being so attached and dependent on a therapist. People just don't get it. Even some of my friends in therapy don't get it. Because they aren't doing therapy the way I am.

But...when I try to imagine doing things in a different way (therapy that is) I don't think it would have worked for me. I would have nodded my head and bolted. In fact, I did!

Which is partly why I'm afraid of seeing a new pdoc. What if they think my therapy is going in the wrong direction? Or worse, what if they outline solutions A, B and C and I can't do these things? My therapist is setting it up, he said he would talk to them ahead of time and make sure we were all on the same page. (He has two in mind, he wants to see which one he can get me into fastest.) I'm not resisting, just fearful. Any advice on pdocs?

 

Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings daisym

Posted by Dinah on October 16, 2005, at 15:17:17

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings Dinah, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 22:40:27

Wish I had some.

I'll be looking for a new one myself soon, as the old one is likely relocating.

I guess I should have all sorts of concerns, but I think all I want is one that won't scare me.

 

P-docs?

Posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings daisym, posted by Dinah on October 16, 2005, at 15:17:17

> Wish I had some.
>
> I'll be looking for a new one myself soon, as the old one is likely relocating.
>
> I guess I should have all sorts of concerns, but I think all I want is one that won't scare me.

Don't p-docs just label people and dispense meds? You don't tell them all your 'stuff' do you? Isn't that what T is for? Only p-doc I met was in hosp. and he was a creepy guy as best I remember.
Muffled

 

Re: P-docs? muffled

Posted by Dinah on October 16, 2005, at 23:24:36

In reply to P-docs?, posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19

It depends. The one before my current one was more active. My current one is "Just the meds, ma'am."

The one before my current one was very ummmm..... high energy. It felt like he was bounding toward me and overpowering me every time we met. He scared me senseless.

My current one is laid back, almost to a fault. But given my previous one, that's what I need in a pdoc.

Now to find another one like him.

 

Re: Ok I give up !!! messadivoce

Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:13:42

In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 18:27:56

Thanks Voce.
I didn't mean to criticize anyone.
The way I speak / write is sometimes little blunt. Kind of like point-blank questions.
I have been trying to change it these days, but once in a while it still comes up that way.

 

Re: Ok I give up !!! Tamar

Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:14:58

In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! orchid, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 18:31:57

Thanks Tamar. Thanks for your views.
I got a little upset on friday, but now I am allright. And I re read my post, and can see how it could be interpreted as criticism.

 

Re: Ok I give up !!! JenStar

Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:15:49

In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! orchid, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 22:22:25

Thanks JS.
You are right, I am a s/w engineer, and work under very tight timelines most of the times. So I always look for making things work faster. :-)

 

For Daisy - (Very Long) daisym

Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 14:21:05

In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? orchid, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15

Hi Daisy,

I reread my post today, and can see how it must have sounded like criticizing.

Sorry about that !!

I don't disapprove of your T. Never. I always liked him. As far as his encouraging your dependancy, I used to sometimes think that maybe it is not good for you. Especially because my two therapists have always said that I have to help myself and didn't allow any dependancy. But I suffered anyway with dependancy issues even if they didn't encourage it. So I came to the conclusion that it doens't really matter that much if they encourage it or discourage it. So I thought it is great that your therapist openly allows it and talks about it. And that it might really help you.

But seeing you continue to suffer intensely makes me question every now and then why it doesn't get better soon for you - especially since your T has great understanding capacity. I have actually read all of your threads in detail and have really wondered many times what could be of help to you.

That is why I thought, maybe he is focussing too much on allowing your feelings, and getting your feelings expressed and examining its root cause, and maybe lacks a little bit in helping you overcome the feelings. That was my post all about.

I read your response today, that he really doesn't want you to over come these feelings, but wants you to examine them more carefully. I think it is good in a way, in that, you probably in the long run will emerge to be a solid well-rounded personality.

But there is also the fact that you are suffering too much NOW.

For instance, if a person is suffering from chronic disease, which will get cured only in the long term, then a physician needs to focus on two things. 1. Long term cure. 2. Short term management of pain or other problem from the disease. The physician should prescribe adequate pain killers or other short term treatments in addition to long term treatments. We cannot let the patient suffer in the short term, and aim only for long term cure (which hypotehcially, let us say, might take years).

That was my only concern. I am sure of the quality of your theraist. I have no doubts about that. But for this to fully work for you, I think it might take years for you. And that is as you said, is fine, because somethings just take as long as it takes. But there might be ways to manage the pain effectively in the short term, and perhaps even, trying EMDR or visualization techniqes might even faster your recovery. EMDR these days has been really proven to much lessen the effects of trauma. It might be worth a try - or atleast asking your therapist about it. Even great therapists sometimes, miss one or two points. There is no harm in asking or exploring all possible avenues.

Regarding the dependancy, I do have some reservations atleast every now and then, and think maybe it is not that good for you. The reason I think like that is, I wonder if human beings can really differentiate at a deep level between therapeutic caring, and being cared for by a close friend/husband/boy friend. I tend to think, that it is practically impossible for a woman to differentiate the caring that she recieves from her therapist from any caring she might receive from a boyfriend or husband. And you will consequently develop the same longings/need for physical closeness that you would develop with a normal association with a boyfriend/husband. And allowing and encouraging one (emotional closeness), but refusing the other (physical contact and intimacy), is going to be very frustrating for any human being to comprehend at an emotional level. At a logical level, you might be capable of understanding that. But I wonder if our emotions can listen to that logic. And the relationship is meant to fail in a physical way. He can never pursue a relationship with you. And he has a family ( I think you have said his wife even works in the same office and you run into her sometimes ). I wonder how that is going to impact you. It is extremely hard for any woman to understand and grasp that and make peace with it. IT is practically going against human nature. IT doesn't work that way with emotions.

This is to the best of my understanding.

I know of course that I might be totally wrong. And what your therapist is doing is perhaps the best way of treating you.

But you are so intensely hurting so much. Allowing the feelings is fine if the feelings are pleasant and bearable, but if the feelings are unbearable and cause you intense hurting, I wonder what is the value in just allowing you to experience it? Espeically in terms of years? If it is for few months, I can see the point in short term pain and long term gain. But life is really not that long to afford several years of intense pain in the hope of spending the rest of your life in peace. It never works that way with life. If you spend years in intense pain hoping for a final peaceful day, then there might be some other more painful issue that might emerge at that time (maybe something not totally related to therapy - like some physical illness or something like that), which might cause you to continue to suffer. So it is really not worth spending many years in pursuit of a peaceful day which might be years away. There should also be focus on the current moment, and making you happier in today or tomorrow, rather than just years down the line.

Please forgive me if I said too much. I am not criticizing here. If it is not obvious from my post above, I care very deeply about you. I have really thought quite a bit about you, and have followed your history in detail over the years, and I don't want to pass up the chance to help you, even if my views are controversial and may not be to your liking. I always think a good way to care about a person is to give the right suggestion, whether it is likeable or not.

Please do ignore my long post, if it is not right. It is my opinion only.

 

Reply to Orchid

Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:28:11

In reply to For Daisy - (Very Long) daisym, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 14:21:05

Sorry, Daisy, I don't mean to hijack your thread..

Orchid, your comments to Daisy were very interesting. It makes me wonder what you must think of me? I've been slogging through this for 14 years in psychodynamic therapy with the same T. It has been very painful, but I've learned so much about myself and I have a wonderful life because of it, for her help in helping me to understand where my reactions and pain are coming from.

But we are still working our way to the core. I know I'm closer but still not there, but that doesn't negate all the years of effort I've put into this. In a way, you sound a lot like my husband in his inability to understand/believe that I have to do this so the rest of my life will be better. And I don't care if it's one day, one week, or just a month, but if I can resolve this, I will have a whole me. I don't think I can explain it to you. Your comments seem to have a "just get over it" sort of mentality, like my husband's, which shows a sincere lack of understanding, not because you don't want to understand, but that you are incapable of understanding the feelings associated. Please don't misunderstand -- thank god there is that lack of understanding. I wouldn't wish one second of this on another person.

I haven't meant to offend you at all, so I hope you don't take it that way.
best,
antigua

 

Re: P-docs? Daisy

Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:35:03

In reply to P-docs?, posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19

I lost my last Pdoc unexpectedly when the guy retired and moved away w/o informing his patients. He did discuss it w/his regular patients, so I can forgive him, but it still was an abandonment I didn't need. I really liked him; he couldn't help but do therapy as he dispensed the meds.

I will stick w/his replacement, because he was recommended, but he's a young, no therapy kind of guy and he seems more interested in the "business" of what he does rather than caring for the patients (He has his phone call/internet charges down to a science!)

But the purpose of my email was to give you a heads up. I had to fill out this enormous questionaire for the new guy (which he barely referred to) that triggered me a lot. Too many personal questions w/o his knowing me. My T flipped at his callousness, but since new guy is really a psychopharmacologist (sp??)I don't care because that's all I'm going to use him for. I don't do well w/more than one T at a time anyway.
best,
antigua

 

Re: Reply to Orchid antigua

Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32

In reply to Reply to Orchid, posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:28:11

I think I have managed to convey a wrong impression yet again.

I am not against long term therapy. Neither am I against the need to work out things fully. And I am not against even life time therapy if needed.

All I was trying to say is -

In addition to long term integration of feelings through talk therapy, try alternative methods of reducing pain like EMDR, visualization, meditation etc. And that also, only IN ADDITION to long term therapy - so that you get benefits in the short term as well as in the long term.

In other words, do some sort of short term pain management in addition to long term cure. I am NOT AGAINST long term cure.

I hope that makes it clear.


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