Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 444210

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Re: she canceled.

Posted by Joslynn on January 19, 2005, at 14:21:47

In reply to she canceled., posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 11:56:03

Did she seem to have a good reason?

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal2

Posted by mair on January 19, 2005, at 14:38:34

In reply to she canceled., posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 11:56:03

I know how awful you must feel. You did say, I think, that you didn't really convey to her, when you set up the appointment, how bad things were for you. That's not an excuse - it just means that she probably didn't know how hard this is going to be for you to wait longer.

I had to wait a long time for my first appointment too - the therapist I called was on vacation when I first called, and then when he got back I downplayed how much of an emergency it was to me so he set an appointment for several days off. (I apologize if I'm repeating something I've already told you, because I know I've related this to someone recently). It was hard to wait but once I finally got together with him and he realized what kind of shape I was in, he was vigilantly supportive.

Please keep posting alot

Mair

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal2

Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 19, 2005, at 16:21:51

In reply to she canceled., posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 11:56:03

GAK that stinks L I am so sorry I know how much you wanted this appointment please keep in mind she may have had good reason

> she left a message and canceled on me :( asked if next wed at the same time would be fine. i'm so mad. i've been waiting like a whole week and now another week. this sucks. i can't wait any longer. i knew not to rely on her, or anyone. i'm all alone, and it sucks.

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal2

Posted by Dinah on January 19, 2005, at 16:40:30

In reply to she canceled., posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 11:56:03

I guess there would be a few acceptable reasons - death in the immediate family, severe contagious illness. Why don't you see if she offers a good reason and/or a sincere apology when you speak to her about rescheduling?

 

Re: she canceled.

Posted by lonelygal on January 19, 2005, at 17:09:06

In reply to Re: she canceled., posted by rubenstein on January 19, 2005, at 12:37:47

i'm home alone now trying to figure out what to do. she did have a good excuse so i'm not mad at her, i just felt like this is more than coincidental, sort of like my fate is to be all alone and to either survive and sort things out myself or not. i dunno if i'm making sense.. i don't know how to explain it. i was mad, but it had nothing to do with her, just more like of course something would go wrong, and trying to get help would not be easy for me.
so anyways, i called back and left a message b/c i was really really upset, but didn't really know what to say. so after a couple long awkward pauses on the answering machine, i just started rambling that i missed my old therapist so much and that it's not fair that i can't talk to her, and that i wanted to kill myself, but thought i would wait until seeing you, but then what good would seeing you do anyways b/c i don't know you, so i dunno, bye. well, at least that's the jist of it i can remember.
she called back and left me a message, gave some other scheduling options and a hotline number, but i can tell that i rattled her b/c she was having weird pauses and stuff too.
now, i'm just so embarassed. i don't know what i'm going to do. i haven't scheduled an appt. i just don't know what i'm doing. i didn't tell my old therapist anything for months and months and i don't even know this girl and it just feels so weird. i did it to myself, i know, but jeez.
that's all. that's my update.

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal

Posted by CareBear04 on January 19, 2005, at 17:44:15

In reply to Re: she canceled., posted by lonelygal on January 19, 2005, at 17:09:06

so sorry for this, lonelygal! i know the others have recommended giving her another chance, but i think you should look for someone else who can see you sooner and who takes seriously how much pain you're in and how much danger you pose to yourself. there are usually pdocs or Ts who, when willing, are able to see you much sooner than within a week. for me, when i was falling apart fast and no pdoc could fit me in right away, i had one hope left-- the one i'd been referred to. i had left him at least three messages, and he never called back. when he finally did, i was as bad as could be, and he told me that he didn't know how bad my situation was, but he couldn't fit me in for at least a month; i should call then and see. that was the last straw for me. i felt like no one was appreciating how dangerous i was and how desperate i felt. i should have been more assertive, maybe not with this *sshole, but with other Ts or pdocs who would have scheduled me in if i let on how serious my situation was. your situation is really serious, it really is. you deserve help right away and shouldn't have to wait another week. there are people that can help you sooner, and maybe it will help you be able to open up to them if you know that they care enough about your life to extend their schedules or give up some comfort time to accommodate you. you deserve that. if you don't have anyone else to give you references, maybe you should try the crisis hotline because i'm sure they can be a good source for where to get help immediately. i can't remember if you said whether the T gave you other names. but please know that you don't have to wait a week when you feel so bad. whatever this Ts excuse doesn't matter right now. even if she had a family emergency, you're also in a crisis situation and you are worth being aggressive, being assertive. just like you let this T know how bad you're feeling, you can express that also to people who can see you right away and give you some relief. i think you'd feel better just knowing that you're not alone in this.
think about it, please!

 

Re: she canceled. CareBear04

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 19:54:52

In reply to Re: she canceled. lonelygal, posted by CareBear04 on January 19, 2005, at 17:44:15

thanks carebear.. umm, yeah i still have no clue what i'm doing. i tried to leave a message and got flustered and hung up. i read your thread below about borderline, and i feel like she must be thinking i'm borderline by the way that i'm acting. i'm sure she thinks i'm being manipulative. i really don't want to be a bother and i hate asking for help b/c i think that is already bad enough, and i just feel so awful, like i'm such a bad, messed up person that needs to go crawl in a corner and leave everyone alone. i don't understand how my life has turned into such awfulness. and how i feel so stupid. and also like such a phony that i pretend so well to be okay so much of the time. that i'm just wishing i can pretend to myself that i'm fine, but its so hard.

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal2

Posted by Shortelise on January 19, 2005, at 20:19:46

In reply to she canceled., posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 11:56:03

Oh, Lonelygal, I am so sorry. I know it's hard for you right now - this t's timing really stinks!

Hugs,
ShortE

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal2

Posted by CareBear04 on January 19, 2005, at 20:45:40

In reply to Re: she canceled. CareBear04, posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 19:54:52

oh lonely gal,
sweetie, i just there was something i could do for you and someone, a real person of significance in your life that you could turn to.
the borderline stuff is funny. it seems like to be considered just solely depressed, especially after a suicide attempt or self-injury, one must be someone with the very lethargic, atypical kinds of depression or else the almost catatonic melancholic types that old people seem to have more than the young. for girls or young women, being emotional seems to raise red flags of borderline, but i don't think it's fair, nor do i think it's helpful because being young and emotional for good reason doesn't mean that your pain is any less deserving of attention than anyone else's.

you're not awful or crazy or that messed up! we all go through times where life or our own minds or self-esteem get us down, sometimes to the point that we get desperate. as for feeling like a phony, i can definitely relate to that. when i was first really depressed in college, i managed to keep up with my responsibilities, which included helping and supporting the freshmen under my care. talk about feeling like a phony! they looked up to me, and i hated myself and knew that i wasn't worthy of their admiration. now i see it differently. i don't believe i'm as great as they saw me, but i do believe that there's something about sticking with your duties and carrying them out as best you can that is truly noteworthy and worthy of respect. i think i tried to pretend to myself that things were okay, just to get through the term, but things really weren't okay. things got much worse before they got better, but addressing my depression earlier on, either through meds or if i had been able to trust and talk to a T, maybe i could have contained the damage.

please don't get down on yourself! and don't let anyone make you believe that you're manipulating anyone. you absolutely deserve to get treatment now, before anything worse happens that will make your recovery much harder. the further you dig yourself into a hole, the harder and harder it is to climb out. if that new T thinks you're manipulating her and can't grasp how desperate you feel, then i say, find someone else now! there are so many Ts out there and the first priority should be to get you feeling better. i know i worry about the BPD dx sometimes, but i don't think it ever really aids treatment. it doesn't do much to guide drug therapy, and it sure doesn't endear you to drs. i really hope you can find someone not judgmental who will treat your symptoms and not your diagnosis, whatever he or she deems that to be.

you are worth it! i hate asking for help, too, but i think it would help. there's nothing inherently wrong with you! you might hate what your disorder has made you become, you might think that you're helpless and worthless because of it, but you yourself are young, have a promising future, and nothing wrong with you that a good pdoc and T can't fix if given the chance. please give someone a chance to help you! and whine all you want and reach out on this board for help, too, because so many people have been touched by your posts and would do anything they can for you. you're in my thoughts and prayers.

 

Re: she canceled. lonelygal2

Posted by mair on January 19, 2005, at 22:06:35

In reply to Re: she canceled. CareBear04, posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 19:54:52

" i read your thread below about borderline, and i feel like she must be thinking i'm borderline by the way that i'm acting. i'm sure she thinks i'm being manipulative. "

God, I just feel so bad for you but please don't jump to conclusions based on what you read on this Board. I don't know anything about your dx, but it sounds like you're making all kinds of assumptions about what this T must be thinking about you, as if she could figure all this out just from your phone message. My T has reminded me a couple of times that asking for what you need is not being manipulative. I see nothing here but that you are in considerable pain and need to get some help. Having this new T cancel the appointment is a huge and unfortunate step backwards, but it doesn't have to mean that you're fated not to get help or that you have bad karma or anything eise. How far off were the times she gave you for rescheduling?

I didn't read your post to say that the T's message was "I can't see you quickly enough so you better find another T." If she didn't want to be involved in helping you, that is the message you would have gotten.

I'm not suggesting you close yourself off from seeking the help you need as quickly as you can get it. It just sounds to me like you're pretty depleted and if you don't have to wait long to see this T, and if you think you can wait that long, it might put less of a strain on you to try to reschedule than to start all over again.

Maybe this is not you at all, but when I'm really depressed, I feel like i have a kind of mental paralysis and making any kind of a decision is way more difficult than it might be otherwise. Giving up or at least doing nothing is the easy thing, and telling yourself that doing nothing doesn't matter maybe because what you could do won't help anyway is pretty typical behavior for someone in alot of pain. When I realized some years ago that I needed help, it took me forever to come to that conclusion, and then days of genuine consternating to decide whom I should call and then more days to actually pick up the phone and call.

Thinking of you - alot

Mair

 

Re: she canceled. mair

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 22:29:41

In reply to Re: she canceled. lonelygal2, posted by mair on January 19, 2005, at 22:06:35

thanks mair. i guess part of me thinks that you are right that it's true i can't really conclude anythign about her impression of me b/c i don't really know her yet, but i guess i just feel so guilty for needing anything or bothering her that i think i should be hated for it.
and i think you are right about trying to stick it out with her, i am too exhausted to look elsewhere. as far as rescheduling, she said monday (instead of wed) after my first message, but then later said this friday if i called back and she got it today. but i was so confused that i didn't call back til later so i dunno, i ended up saying please either friday or monday, b/c wed seems so far away. in an earlier message, she had said she wouldn't be checking her messages for the rest of the week after today (and i called late today), so really i have no clue when she will get it, but whatever, there is nothing i can do now. it's all too confusing. she's a grad student and i'm sure she's busy. and well, i think i'm annoying.
and i feel like there is nothing more i can do, and if it just doens't work out wiht her, it just doesn't work out. gosh, i miss my old therapist. this is too hard.

> " i read your thread below about borderline, and i feel like she must be thinking i'm borderline by the way that i'm acting. i'm sure she thinks i'm being manipulative. "
>
> God, I just feel so bad for you but please don't jump to conclusions based on what you read on this Board. I don't know anything about your dx, but it sounds like you're making all kinds of assumptions about what this T must be thinking about you, as if she could figure all this out just from your phone message. My T has reminded me a couple of times that asking for what you need is not being manipulative. I see nothing here but that you are in considerable pain and need to get some help. Having this new T cancel the appointment is a huge and unfortunate step backwards, but it doesn't have to mean that you're fated not to get help or that you have bad karma or anything eise. How far off were the times she gave you for rescheduling?
>
> I didn't read your post to say that the T's message was "I can't see you quickly enough so you better find another T." If she didn't want to be involved in helping you, that is the message you would have gotten.
>
> I'm not suggesting you close yourself off from seeking the help you need as quickly as you can get it. It just sounds to me like you're pretty depleted and if you don't have to wait long to see this T, and if you think you can wait that long, it might put less of a strain on you to try to reschedule than to start all over again.
>
> Maybe this is not you at all, but when I'm really depressed, I feel like i have a kind of mental paralysis and making any kind of a decision is way more difficult than it might be otherwise. Giving up or at least doing nothing is the easy thing, and telling yourself that doing nothing doesn't matter maybe because what you could do won't help anyway is pretty typical behavior for someone in alot of pain. When I realized some years ago that I needed help, it took me forever to come to that conclusion, and then days of genuine consternating to decide whom I should call and then more days to actually pick up the phone and call.
>
> Thinking of you - alot
>
> Mair

 

Re: she canceled. CareBear04

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 22:53:41

In reply to Re: she canceled. lonelygal2, posted by CareBear04 on January 19, 2005, at 20:45:40

again, thanks so much carebear :)
i guess i feel a lot like you did in college. tonight an old friend of mine contacted me for guy advice and kept begging me to tell her what to do (which by the way seemed so painstakingly obvious and not complicated at all). and it's the same with the freshmen you took care of. i know this girl totally looks up to me, it just feels so weird, like if she only knew... but of course, i wouldn't want her to know anything bad about me anyways... but i'm really glad that she helped to distract me from everything going on in my head.
i really am trying to believe all the stuff you said like how i'm worth it, etc etc. i don't know why it's so hard to believe, that it's way easier to believe that i'm annoying people and should go away and umm, not bother therapists either.
i just dont' want to be difficult or a pain to other people. it's scary, but deep down i think i do really really hope that she can help me. and of course, the next thought that pops into my head is am i just setting myself up for more disappointment?
thanks again carebear for being so nice to me.. i really really appreciate it.

> oh lonely gal,
> sweetie, i just there was something i could do for you and someone, a real person of significance in your life that you could turn to.
> the borderline stuff is funny. it seems like to be considered just solely depressed, especially after a suicide attempt or self-injury, one must be someone with the very lethargic, atypical kinds of depression or else the almost catatonic melancholic types that old people seem to have more than the young. for girls or young women, being emotional seems to raise red flags of borderline, but i don't think it's fair, nor do i think it's helpful because being young and emotional for good reason doesn't mean that your pain is any less deserving of attention than anyone else's.
>
> you're not awful or crazy or that messed up! we all go through times where life or our own minds or self-esteem get us down, sometimes to the point that we get desperate. as for feeling like a phony, i can definitely relate to that. when i was first really depressed in college, i managed to keep up with my responsibilities, which included helping and supporting the freshmen under my care. talk about feeling like a phony! they looked up to me, and i hated myself and knew that i wasn't worthy of their admiration. now i see it differently. i don't believe i'm as great as they saw me, but i do believe that there's something about sticking with your duties and carrying them out as best you can that is truly noteworthy and worthy of respect. i think i tried to pretend to myself that things were okay, just to get through the term, but things really weren't okay. things got much worse before they got better, but addressing my depression earlier on, either through meds or if i had been able to trust and talk to a T, maybe i could have contained the damage.
>
> please don't get down on yourself! and don't let anyone make you believe that you're manipulating anyone. you absolutely deserve to get treatment now, before anything worse happens that will make your recovery much harder. the further you dig yourself into a hole, the harder and harder it is to climb out. if that new T thinks you're manipulating her and can't grasp how desperate you feel, then i say, find someone else now! there are so many Ts out there and the first priority should be to get you feeling better. i know i worry about the BPD dx sometimes, but i don't think it ever really aids treatment. it doesn't do much to guide drug therapy, and it sure doesn't endear you to drs. i really hope you can find someone not judgmental who will treat your symptoms and not your diagnosis, whatever he or she deems that to be.
>
> you are worth it! i hate asking for help, too, but i think it would help. there's nothing inherently wrong with you! you might hate what your disorder has made you become, you might think that you're helpless and worthless because of it, but you yourself are young, have a promising future, and nothing wrong with you that a good pdoc and T can't fix if given the chance. please give someone a chance to help you! and whine all you want and reach out on this board for help, too, because so many people have been touched by your posts and would do anything they can for you. you're in my thoughts and prayers.

 

a BIG thanks

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 22:57:23

In reply to Re: she canceled. CareBear04, posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 22:53:41

i just wanted to give a BIG, HUGE, ENORMOUS thank you to all of you who have been helping me out these past few days. it really really means a lot to me.

 

Re: a BIG thanks lonelygal2

Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 19, 2005, at 23:32:23

In reply to a BIG thanks, posted by lonelygal2 on January 19, 2005, at 22:57:23

> i just wanted to give a BIG, HUGE, ENORMOUS thank you to all of you who have been helping me out these past few days. it really really means a lot to me.

You mean a lot to many of us please know that back :)

HUGE HUGS

 

Re: she canceled.

Posted by Joslynn on January 20, 2005, at 8:50:06

In reply to Re: she canceled., posted by lonelygal on January 19, 2005, at 17:09:06

The new T obviously was concerned, and that's good. Even though you said you feel a little embarassed about it now, that's a good sign that she called back, gave you the hotline number, other scheduling options, etc. Seems like so far, it may be worth waiting for the appt.

Feeling like things are hopeless because of this cancellation is the depression talking, trust me. It does that, makes things seem black and forever.

 

Re: she canceled.

Posted by shrinking violet on January 20, 2005, at 9:33:01

In reply to Re: she canceled., posted by Joslynn on January 20, 2005, at 8:50:06

(((((((LG)))))))))

I'm so sorry this happened! I'm glad you were able to ask for some help though, and that she did return your call and try to give you some options. Try to hang in there, take it a moment at a time. For me, when I look ahead and say, 'cripes, I have x days ahead of me until I see my T, or I have the whole weekend alone before I can get out of the house and go to work/school' it seems too daunting and makes the depression and hopelessness and panic so much worse. Take it a moment at a time. Also, what one of the babblers wrote to an earlier post about trying to "sit" with the pain and not get rid of it right away is good advice, and it can work. My T recently let me borrow a book from her collection called ""When things fall apart, heart advice for difficult times"" I recommend it. It got me through some hard times, especially during the ones where I wouldn't be seeing my T for a while.

Hang in there. You know you can email me anytime. And I'll probably be on AIM later tonight also, if you want to chat.

HUGS

Peace,
sv

P.S. You aren't annoying at all. I enjoy our chats and getting to know you more, and you're a good friend. :-)

 

more drama

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 12:58:37

In reply to Re: she canceled., posted by shrinking violet on January 20, 2005, at 9:33:01

i can't believe this. i had e-mailed my old pdoc a couple weeks ago and she responded last night (i think she was on vacation)- i got it this morning. she said that she felt like she was standing in the way of my starting a relationship with a new t, that she thinks i need to be in therapy, and that by using her as an 'escape hatch' it's ultimately not for my best benefit and unethical for her. of course, i fell apart and thought oh my gosh yet another person is leaving me. she allowed me to e-mail her once more back to express my feelings, and i did e-mail her back, but i feel like it doesn't matter and gosh, what next? i also think this is proof that i am annoying and that she doesn't want to talk to me. she said that when i move back home (which will be in july, i'm on an internship in another state) to call, and that she would want to help me to find another t and meet with me, but i'm feeling like yeah, right, you've totally hurt me too.

 

Re: more drama lonelygal2

Posted by rainbowbrite on January 20, 2005, at 13:18:46

In reply to more drama, posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 12:58:37

Awww (((lonleygal)))

Im so sorry. I think what she said is true though. I think it is unethical for them to be in the middle of a new realtionship because it interferes with the creation of a new bond. Im thinking as an example of kids that are removed from parents, if you take a kid from a home but allow that child to keep in contact with the patent that they removed it from that child will have a very difficult time forming a new bond. Taht is how I am taking what your T said. I bet if you give the new T a chance when you finally get to see her and you get connected your old T would love to hear from you! right now i bet she feels in a horrible place becasue im sure she wishes she could help but knows that it is wrong. BTW does she know who your new T is? Like maybe it would be helpful for her to talk to your new T. i dunno. I hope things get easier
rain

 

Re: more drama

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 13:32:47

In reply to Re: more drama lonelygal2, posted by rainbowbrite on January 20, 2005, at 13:18:46

yeah, i see what both you and her are saying... still, it just sucks...
and this was my old pdoc that i was talking about (she's with my school, its just that i had taken a year off to do an internship and i guess just get away, so i'm away right now)... i have long ago given up on ever talking to my old t again. b/c even if i did talk to her it wouldn't be the same anymore and it would make me sad anwyays. i just wish i could go back in time to when i had her..... well, i have thought if i ever do go through with umm, what i mentioned before, i would leave her a goodbye message on her voicemail, but that's all..

> Awww (((lonleygal)))
>
> Im so sorry. I think what she said is true though. I think it is unethical for them to be in the middle of a new realtionship because it interferes with the creation of a new bond. Im thinking as an example of kids that are removed from parents, if you take a kid from a home but allow that child to keep in contact with the patent that they removed it from that child will have a very difficult time forming a new bond. Taht is how I am taking what your T said. I bet if you give the new T a chance when you finally get to see her and you get connected your old T would love to hear from you! right now i bet she feels in a horrible place becasue im sure she wishes she could help but knows that it is wrong. BTW does she know who your new T is? Like maybe it would be helpful for her to talk to your new T. i dunno. I hope things get easier
> rain

 

Re: more drama lonelygal2

Posted by rainbowbrite on January 20, 2005, at 15:53:07

In reply to Re: more drama, posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 13:32:47

I know it hurts. I had a similar experience with someone when i was much younger, i only met with him for a few months bubt i really trusted him. anyway i didn't know it at the time but i think he was a student or something casue he moved on to another city and school. i couldn't let go and refused to work with anyone else. i wrote a few letters just wanting to keep that realtionship going and i think, in retrospect, that he wasn't trying to be mean but he sent me a very very cold response to my last letter. i was heart broken. this was someone who came accross so sensitive and kind and loving. he basically said i think you need to cut contact with me. after readidng your post i think i just answered my own question. it is the most painful experience. YUou trust and share with a person and then they up and leave. i really thought he'd be there for me, but no. it took me quite awile to get back to anotehr one. so my point of that is that i really know how painful it is and how discouraging it can be. I really hope you find a good relationship with a T, im still working on that but i think it is so important.
((lonelygal))

 

new update.

Posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 18:01:00

In reply to Re: more drama, posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 13:32:47

so, umm, the pdoc called me today (after i e-mailed her back) explaining her position b/c she knew i was so upset and b/c i think i mentioned a little too much about all the thoughts that i had been thinking. we talked for a really long time, like an hour, giving me advice that i need to open up to this new t and that i need to work on trusting, etc etc. I kept crying and crying. She said she would start looking for a therapist for me for when I go home in July and to call her when I go back home to set up an appt. and i promised I would.
Also, just right now the new t person called and I have an appt. for tomorrow! So, I'm relieved b/c everythign just has seemed so complicated and I want things to be simple and I'm tired of waiting b/c I feel so stupid plus I want help now before I back out, etc etc. So I really really really hope it goes okay tomorrow. Please God please. I am drained.

 

Re: new update. lonelygal2

Posted by annierose on January 20, 2005, at 18:27:44

In reply to new update., posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 18:01:00

Finally, seems like the corner is turning. You deserve to pat yourself on the back (a few times) for being so persistent and opening your heart and soul to both the old pdoc and new T (via telephone). They did listen, and respond. I hope tomorrow goes well for you. Mostly, you like her. And feel you can work with her.

 

Re: new update. lonelygal2

Posted by rainbowbrite on January 20, 2005, at 18:37:41

In reply to new update., posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 18:01:00

I am very pleased to here this. Let us know how it goes.

:)

 

Re: new update. lonelygal2

Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 20, 2005, at 19:22:32

In reply to new update., posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 18:01:00

I will be praying this appointment goes well I am sooo happy they got you in fast...I am here for you and mega hugs

 

how did it go? (nm)

Posted by rainbowbrite on January 21, 2005, at 13:49:55

In reply to new update., posted by lonelygal2 on January 20, 2005, at 18:01:00


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