Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 374592

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More: ....directed to me

Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 15:46:58

In reply to I would be hurt if those posts were directed to me 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:09:23

> How is your coaching business going? Do your students respond well to this approach? I'm always a bit curious as to how different people respond. I know, for example, that biofeedback guy has a thriving business. And I know that everyone is different and different people respond well to different approaches. I'm just curious if this is an approach that works well with 10% or 90% of the population that comes to you.
>

<<< I don't have any Coaching trainees yet, what I would call students. I am working so hard on the bigger picture that I only have a few clients I coach, and a few companies that have me talk to new-hires about the art of "...just getting along". I also continue to volunteer some at Drug and Alcohol intake agencies, where folks are sent by the courts in lieu of extended jail time.

Hope that is a clear snapshot.

Rod

 

Re: Oh 64bowtie

Posted by Aphrodite on August 7, 2004, at 16:03:46

In reply to Re: Oh, posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:42:32

I find my childhood of abuse and neglect to be more than a "mere story."

 

Re: Re: Oh Aphrodite

Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 17:01:59

In reply to Re: Oh 64bowtie, posted by Aphrodite on August 7, 2004, at 16:03:46

> I find my childhood of abuse and neglect to be more than a "mere story."
>

<<< I don't challenge that at all. I honor your rights to your feelings, motives, and behaviors. That said, I point out that I used to, toooo. At that time my pain was overwhelming. When it dawned on me that I was having the same pains over and over again because the story I remembered didn't seem to change, I got curious as to why. Along the way, I became clear that I was being driven to re-enact the pain as some feeble attempt to change the results, but mostly I would suffer, in silence.

When I pictured what it was that I was going over and over was only a story about the painful incident, not the incident itself, I experimented by telling myself backwards, while adding and deleting pertinent facts randomly. Pretty soon the real story looked like some joke I was telling myself.

By accepting the nature of the memories that continued to high-jack my emotions, The pain immediately became a burden and was easily extinguished, probably forever.

I hope you can tell that "I been there, done that" and am not just talking through a hole in my hat. It was 15 to 20 years ago now, so I have many years reliving the success story instead of the pain story. I am asking you if you see continuing to be blackmailed by your past to be a good thing or a bad thing. It's OK by me for you to choose either way, your choice. Sorry if I sounded judgemental before.

Rod

 

Re: technical questions 64bowtie

Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04

In reply to Re: Oh... (((daisym))) please.........., posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:04:22

I hope you didn't mis-take the reason behind my posts. I wasn't challenging your credentials or asking you to prove that you are a professional. I wouldn't do that. I just realize that not everyone is interested in the sort of reparenting/attachment theory/self psychology therapy that Daisy and I prefer, and that has served me quite well. There have been a number of posts lately to that effect (that some people would prefer a less dependent, more direct approach). And that's cool. I am a firm believer in individual differences and one size does not fit all and your mileage may vary. I certainly know that biofeedback guy had a large clientele. But I was curious as to how your more direct approach was received by the population as a whole.

If someone were to tell me that I was choosing my misery, even if they believe it to be true, I would be unlikely to listen to anything else that person had to say.

If someone were to tell me that my inner child was an illusion, my inner child (for want of a better phrase) would be highly insulted and utterly furious. "Illusion", "archaic inner child remnant", and for that matter, "inner child" are all phrases that would arouse fury and reduce the chances that any further words, no matter how sage, would have any effect.

And if anyone were to tell me "If I placated you by validating your pain ,I would then be a player in your psycho-drama of abstractions creating irrational pain. Is that what you want from me? For me to be your patsy? I would be validating the "kidnapper" of your sensibilties and blackmailer of your emotions. My motives are surer than that. So, don't enlist myself or another person to validate this "bad" habit of yours.", even if that statement is considered civil to Dr. Bob, I would be forced to engage the request not to post. And probably engage in a useless debate with Dr. Bob, and storm off from the board for at least three days. (So my secondary purpose was to ensure we didn't get into that unpleasant sort of relationship.)


But I realize that not everyone is me, and that "plain talk" directness works well with some people. And that is absolutely fascinating to me. I mean, I enjoy listening to Dr. Laura, not Dr. Phil so much, but I still find the whole thing fascinating. Because to me the idea that someone would say "Oh, ok, I'm causing my own pain. I'll change that right away." is so absolutely foreign to every particle of my being that it can't help but hold a certain fascination for me. Especially the fascination of knowing how *many* people respond to that in a positive way. Because, I suppose, that tells me how much of the population might as well be space aliens for all I understand them.

But getting back to the technical question. Do you think it might be more productive to ask people if they would like you to assess them in a direct manner before you do it? Then if they agree, they (like Dr. Laura's callers and Dr. Phil's guests) would be more likely to take it well because they have an investment in taking it well. I would guess that most people who say "Sure, I can take it", would feel some responsibility to be able to take it well.

 

Re: technical questions

Posted by JenStar on August 7, 2004, at 20:25:48

In reply to Re: technical questions 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04

hi guys,
this post is fascinating to me. I hope you don't mind if I chime in (not with any analyses of you, or suggestions for anyone...just my own feelings.)

I like to listen to Dr. Laura because she cuts through the cr** and 'tells it like it is.'
And I like to 'tell it like it is' sometimes too. But I also know that even though I profess to like the 'tell it like it is' style, I'm also not always up for 'being told like it is', even if that is sort of hypocritical.

I was reading a book about therapy called Reality Therapy in Action by William Glasser, M.D. and I both loved it and hated it. The author posited that most (if not all) neuroses and psychological problems are self-caused and CAN be self-fixed without meds. Naturally I really found that offensive and small-minded. I also loved it, and thought that in some cases it was probably very true, for me and for others.

The doctor gave examples of how he 'cured' OCD, alcoholism, panick attacks, and a girl who was hearing voices by basically finding the relationship that was causing the issues, and helping them fix it. His belief is that ALL problems are the result of a poor relationship of some kind.

I started thinking about my own problems and if I could fix some of them by telling myself to 'shape up' or else, da**it. I determined that SOME problems could be fixed(procrastination). And maybe some COULD, but the time would need to be right. I used to be terrified of flying, and no amount of being told 'get the heck over it, it's a dumb fear' helped me, even though I knew this was true. I don't know exactly how I stopped. One day I simply told myself: "This is killing you. Your blood pressure goes up, you take too much Xanax and drink too much alcohol on planes, last time you threw up on the way home, you don't enjoy your trips -- let's get over it, mind." And for some reason, my mind was ready to make the change, so I switched from fearful flyer to normal flyer.

But I don't know if I could have done that if this doctor got in my face and told me all those things (you're hurting yourself, it's a silly fear, you don't enjoy your trips.) I also don't think the fear of flying was due to a bad relationship (unless you consider the relationship of Me + Fear of Death to be a relationship.)

I guess I like to be 'told like it is' but with compassion, humor and respect. If a doctor (or other person) acts too hoity-toity, super-intellectual, condescending, I get really turned off and want to argue with them just because their personality irritates me. If the same doctor approaches me with the humor and respect and a 'let's solve this jointly' approach, I would definitely be more open to the brutal honesty approach. (becuase it wouldn't actually be so brutal!)

On the other hand, I don't want people to completely sugar-coat things to me either. I've known people at work who are so scared to criticize a business plan that they spend 10 minutes timidly saying, "This may be stupid, and I know I'm not smart like you guys, and I know my ideas usually suck, and I apologize in advance if I hurt anyone's feeling in any way, and this might be totally off the mark and if so I'm sorry for wasting all your time and the air in the room, but maybe, is it just a teensy bit possible, that those numbers are off? I have my cyanide pill here if you tell me i'm wrong," and that irritates me too.

I guess the part of the book I liked was the reminder that I DO have control over lots of things in my life, and I AM responsible for making changes. Even if I'm depressed or anxious or fearful, I have a ton of capability to be positive and fix my own issues, at least some of them. That's a cool thing to remember. It makes me feel empowered.

Another book I was reading, Talk is Not Enough, How Psychotherapy Really Works, by Willard Gaylin, M.D., kind of went along the same lines - we have the power to change our own neuroses and problems. I liked hearing this; again it made me feel empowered.

However --when he went on to posit that anyone who is overweight is making a choice to be overweight, that really made me want to go ballistic. I know that I DO control my weight myself, but I also believe that I am genetically pre-disposed to being heavy and that my body just likes food. He would disagree, say that none of that is tru, and say that I'm being weak or choosing to be overweight as some kind of compensation for my inability to function in some capacity. That irritated me! (Or maybe it hits too close to home???)

Has anyone else read these books? (Reality Therapy in Action, by William Glasser, M.D. and Talk is Not Enough, by Willard Gayline, M.D.)

If so, what did you think of them?

JenStar

 

Re: technical questions JenStar

Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 21:49:44

In reply to Re: technical questions, posted by JenStar on August 7, 2004, at 20:25:48

I've read Glasser, and enjoyed him. I also read the Gaylin book, but apparently brought away a completely different message. I remember it being about the importance of the therapeutic relationship? But maybe I'm wrong. I've got in in front of me, and should re-read it.

But Reality Therapy really is no nonsense, and as I said I enjoyed it, and enjoy Dr. Laura too. But I fired biofeedback guy in three or four sessions because I found him blunt and abrasive. So maybe I'd have fired Glasser too. :)

If you met me in real life, and I'm not sure it comes over well on the board, you'd probably see a no nonsense, totally unromantic, sensible soul who does what works. I spent years and years doing what worked until that approach quit working. :)

Sorry to those who have heard my story before, but here it is. From age 11-14, my world as I knew it fell apart. I became the picked on kid at school (that was the biggie I think), I went from being an only child to having a school aged brother (the son my parents always wanted), my best friend first separated herself from me, then moved away entirely. My alchoholic uncle whom I despised, and the feeling was mutual, moved in to live with us. My parents were their usual warring parties, maybe worse because of my uncle and because of me. I acted out big time, totally fell apart, although I somehow managed to do well enough at school. My absenteeism shot sky high as I pretended to be ill, I developed an obsessive phobia about vomit that severely limited my activities, and I was well on my way to becoming agoraphobic. I had temper tantrums, and generally caused scenes enough places that my parents dragged me to a rather ineffectual psychiatrist who put me on heavy duty drugs.

Somewhere about a year from the end of that time, I decided that how I was behaving wasn't getting me what I wanted. I was on horrible terms with my parents, and everything was being made worse by my behavior. So I just stopped. I stopped taking the drugs. I stopped acting crazy. I stopped refusing to go places. I hid the phobia, made socially acceptable excuses where necessary, did what I needed to do. And it worked! I still felt awful, but no one cared how I felt. All they could see was that I was back to being a good girl. I had never been exposed to Reality Therapy or CBT or anything else. But I had come up with a lot of the concepts on my own. Exposure and response prevention, breathing, visualization, a version of Reality Therapy, an enormous amount of doing what worked.

Yet I wasn't a success story. Something went horribly wrong in my self imposed therapy. On the surface I was high functioning, getting along with my family (or as well as anyone could). I thought I was fine myself.

So part of what gets me angry about the pull yourself up by the bootstraps theories is that I want to shout "I KNOW THAT!!!! I INDEPENDENTLY INVENTED THAT!!!! And I know that there are things it can't fix." I want to yell that those simple very rational sounding and lovely words didn't fix me. They just made me function better in society. They made everyone else perfectly happy. They allowed me to function in society as society wanted me to function. But the cost to myself was way too high.

So do I need to hear all the sensible ways of dealing with my vomit phobia? No. That wasn't at all healing for me. It was healing for others around me, true. :) It took a therapist doing mirroring and acceptance and all those nice touchy feely things to let me start to truly let go of the fear. I'm not a hundred percent yet. But the obsessiveness is so much less now.

To me all those sensible things are words, just pretty words. I like them as much as anyone. I nod in solemn agreement with their very self obviousness. Of COURSE, that's true. Yet I also know it's not true at all.

Am I making no sense? Probably. I am very capable of holding completely opposing viewpoints. :)

 

Re: technical questions Dinah

Posted by gardenergirl on August 7, 2004, at 23:55:09

In reply to Re: technical questions JenStar, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 21:49:44

Dinah,
You are making so much sense to me it scares me. :) Actually, *I* invented all those things...although perhaps you did it slightly before me. I feel the same way, wanting to scream "I know that". That's part of the self-doubt and depression for me. It's part of feeling like a fraud or a failure, because what makes perfectly reasonable sense doesn't help. Of course those things sound perfectly reasonable. But they leave me flat. And if it were just that, I trust that I have the cognitive capacity to implement those strategies.

And like you, I can use them to be socially acceptable, but it doesn't make me feel any better. That's why I always said I needed a very smart therapist who would see through my smiling and nodding in agreement to the quivering mass of fear and self-doubt and pain underneath. I'm glad I found that!

Take care,
gg

 

an aha about this thread

Posted by gardenergirl on August 8, 2004, at 0:08:14

In reply to Re: technical questions 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04

> My motives are surer than that. So, don't enlist myself or another person to validate this "bad" habit of yours.",

My "aha" is that although I and others have responded to your posts and I am intrigued by it, I think the "enlistment" part has been missing from these dialogs. Your threads often come standing alone versus in response to a poster's request for feedback or advice (although I have also seen you reach out to posters in need :) ). But I think part of what I feel is a bit like I've experienced unsolicited advice that feels critical in some way to me. I recognize that this perception of criticism is my own issue and likely is not coming from you, but that is what is bothersome to me. I can feel my self-doubt and anger with myself flaring.

Just wanted to share this observation I had. It may not be what anyone else experiences. But I do think it can get in my way of an effective dialog about your model.

Take care,
gg

 

Daisy and 64bowtie

Posted by antigua on August 8, 2004, at 11:34:38

In reply to Re: Oh... (((daisym))) please.........., posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:04:22

"[Aside], how do memories hurt anyone? Why would anyone give that much power and energy to an abstraction, a story about what happened to you, that it, the abstraction has the ability to take action against your senses and physically cause pain?"

My memories are not an abstraction so I think that makes a big difference as to how I interpret what you have to say.

I am working to master the memories so I can let them go. No amount of "just move on" is going to make a bit of difference. Children work over and over to master things and once they do, their actions become second nature. The mastering is a necessary part of developing into a full and complete human being. Emotionally, because of the things that occurred, I never mastered basic human emotions and expectations. My thinking and vision of the world was wrong because it wasn't modeled correctly. Now I am learning to model it correctly. (I have a friend, for example, and my mother too actually, who didn't learn to swim as a child. They've never learned as adults, and they both have an intense fear surrounding this.)

I fully expect to be well once I work through this. I don't know when it will be, but I get stronger and stronger every day. Some days are tougher, when I am overcome w/emotions and feeling that I have to dig to figure out. Once I understand them and feel them, I can let them go. If I ignore them (just "buck up") they keep coming back and I can react in ways that hurt me, until I learn to feel the feelings, process them and let them go. In the long run, for me this approach works well because I'm not just burying the feelings and waiting for them to rear their ugly head and bite me. I'm facing them down, one by one.

One other thing--childhood sexual abuse is not on the same level of seriousness or life-altering experiences as "coaching," IMO. It is a horrible issue to have to deal with, much more serious (sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone) than being being afraid of say, frogs (is that innocuous enough?)or afraid to do XXX, or anything like that. It is the full and complete betrayal by someone you were supposed to be able to trust. I can't just get over it, but I can work to become the best person I can be.
antigua

 

Re: technical questions [response]

Posted by 64bowtie on August 8, 2004, at 17:32:51

In reply to Re: technical questions 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04

> But getting back to the technical question. Do you think it might be more productive to ask people if they would like you to assess them in a direct manner before you do it? Then if they agree, they (like Dr. Laura's callers and Dr. Phil's guests) would be more likely to take it well because they have an investment in taking it well. I would guess that most people who say "Sure, I can take it", would feel some responsibility to be able to take it well.
>

<<< I do apologise for my crispness. Thanks for pointing out just that very paragraph. No matter that DaisyM said I was entirely wrong or not, I was toooo sharp-edged. for that I apologise.

...to your question: I have been lazy about asking for contracts here at "Babble", so now I'll try to shore-up and work on that. I feel we have an eye-to-eye agreement of sorts not to belittle or attack each other. It's working for us so far, perhaps I can get to at least that point with DaisyM. I make no bones about how much I admire your abilities, so you are in no danger of you and I really having a problem. I would rather block myself than to harm our dialog.

Please reread my posts to Aphrodite. I understand that this might S O U N D like hooie, but has worked for a known 720 resident clients at The Salvation Army Adult Rehab Center where David Peck LCSW/MFCC volunteered for eight years. The study was two years long with a two year follow-up. After that, David passed away. I am left with the study as part of his intellectual legacy.

Hmmmm... Am I the right guy for the job? I know I am. Some of the model is mine that I brought in along the way. DaMasio's name would have never come up without my suggestion. The rest of the work the entire study group filled in from their practices and reading. Suggesting a need for a rite of passage ritual to earmark the moment of adulthood was mine that I borrowed from Robert Subby MFCC, who I had met at a convention in San Jose, in Spring of 1989. But I digress...

Back to you, (((Dinah))). What part is your hubby playing in your recovery? You say he claims two books about DaMasio. I hope he rolls up his sleeves and is willing to work with you.

Way off the point: Keep an eye on the stem cell debate. I mean stem cell research of the placenta, not aborted fetuses. Aborted fetuses are good for the "bean-counters" but not mankind, because its so much easier to harvest eye cells for eye repair, or cells from the Isles-of-Langerhans in the fetus to repair diabetes. However, they still exist in the placenta, researchers just need money to find them efficiently.

I personally am anti-abortion in the long haul but pro-choice for the sake of individual women's rights, and mostly an advocate of de-mystifying the adoption process, which for 10,000 years worked good, until the attorneys got involved. They are the problem not just part of the problem. Crooked people can be dealt with when they act crookedly. $50,000 to adopt, is lurid and demonic. Toooo many kids are left to enter foster care because nobody wants to pay big bucks for an orphan beyond the age of reason.

I'll make amends to (((DaisyM))) but I'll let her set the terms. I'll even do dishes and windows (ground floor only).

Rod

 

Re: Re: antigua

Posted by 64bowtie on August 8, 2004, at 18:18:07

In reply to Daisy and 64bowtie, posted by antigua on August 8, 2004, at 11:34:38

< "[Aside], how do memories hurt anyone? Why would anyone give that much power and energy to an abstraction, a story about what happened to you, that it, the abstraction has the ability to take action against your senses and physically cause pain?"
<
> My memories are not an abstraction so I think that makes a big difference as to how I interpret what you have to say.
>

<<< Hi, (((Antigua))). I hope I do better here than usual. I am only asking a question, and I'm only curious about DaisyM's answer. Your answer is extra-good because I didn't expect it.

I don't wish to enflame, but you didn't answer the question directly. You stated your position without accepting my premise, which incidently is backed up by all the neuro-science modelers of how the brain works.

Memories can't be real or they would be three dimensional, have weight, and take up space. Our thoughts are only abstractions that we operate better with than if we didn't think at all.

By their very nature of happening in a past tense, memories are our abstractions of what happened, not the event relived. Like I said above, Norman Bates in the movie, "Psycho" found this unsurmountable and frustrating, so he began re-enacting his torturous and tormenting memories.

I appeal to you to lighten your grip on your version of meaning for the word abstraction and get curious about what else it might mean. I never intended to have the word come across as derogatory. I'm big on abstraction, partly because the nun's called it a sin.

We're not talking "Bugs Bunny" here. Distortion is not necessarily an earmark of abstraction, yet abstractions do often get distorted over time. I suppose I have to search for a less cojent word to ask questions about.

Thank you for the interchange of information.

Rod

 

No needed to do dishes 64bowtie

Posted by daisym on August 8, 2004, at 20:38:56

In reply to Re: technical questions [response], posted by 64bowtie on August 8, 2004, at 17:32:51

Rod,

First -- Just "Daisy" please...

Next -- I didn't mean to be abrupt with "you are wrong". You've singled out this phrase in several posts, so I think it stung. I was just trying to be clear about "my" pain and "my" memories.

Finally -- still can't/won't debate this. You are committed to your position, which is (obviously) fine. I'm wounded and bleeding right now, but not because of you. By "no response needed" I simply meant I oouldn't face a continuation of this discussion, not that you can't post to me. I'm glad others have stepped in to engage.

No worries...I'm tough.

 

Re: Re:

Posted by antigua on August 8, 2004, at 21:28:59

In reply to Re: Re: antigua, posted by 64bowtie on August 8, 2004, at 18:18:07

"Memories can't be real or they would be three dimensional, have weight, and take up space. Our thoughts are only abstractions that we operate better with than if we didn't think at all."

Aah, but they are real, are 3-D and have weight. I'm not Catholic and don't worry about the Nuns.

No, I appeal to you to lighten your version of what it all means.

Bugs Bunny? Cartoon character? My life is much more important than a character/

I'm really sorry you don;t understand. That must be very tough.

I'm very secure in what I believe. You can't rock my boat by your inconsistincies.

Back to the basics. It would be very compassionate if you could understand what so many of us are going through. I'm sorry it is beyond your capacity.

antigua

 

Re: No needed to do dishes daisym

Posted by antigua on August 8, 2004, at 21:31:10

In reply to No needed to do dishes 64bowtie, posted by daisym on August 8, 2004, at 20:38:56

I hope you are o.k. I know we can't win, but I felt the need to fight.

Daisy, I care so much about you because you are going through the same things I am. I admire you tremendously and I hope I didn't offend you. I was trying to be helpful.
antigua

 

Re: No needed to do dishes antigua

Posted by daisym on August 8, 2004, at 22:18:07

In reply to Re: No needed to do dishes daisym, posted by antigua on August 8, 2004, at 21:31:10

Gosh no, Antigua...never offended by you. I'm glad you felt up to defending "us"... I wish I felt stronger. It is just that so much of what was written is what I've spent months trying to undo...my therapist would throttle me if he knew I was sliding back to these beliefs at all. It is hard because I WISH I could just flip the switch and feel better. I feel like a weak, sad soul because I can't "just" get over all this.

I appreciate everything you said, both to me and for me.

 

Re: technical questions [response] 64bowtie

Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2004, at 23:09:19

In reply to Re: technical questions [response], posted by 64bowtie on August 8, 2004, at 17:32:51

I thank you Rod.

And I'm just trying to help out a little. I know you didn't ask for my help. :) And I apologize if it's unwanted. But you've made a real effort to try to connect to people here, and have also asked for feedback in the past. I respect the efforts you have made. And I understand that it's important to you to be able to help others. Or at least that's how I read your posts. So I'm trying to throw out ideas, like asking someone if it's ok to be really direct before you do it, or using validation techniques in conjunction with your approach, or being open to the idea that not everyone responds to the same approach in the same way. I appreciate that you have accepted that the last idea is true, at least for me. I hope that some of my ideas are useful to you, and others may well not be. That's the way it goes when you throw out ideas. Some stick to the wall and some fall to the floor. And if you'd rather I not try to brainstorm with you, just let me know and I'll quit trying.

My husband is just a collector of interesting bits of information in lots of areas. His particular area of interest is language, but he also collects books on anything that catches his fancy, including how the brain works. The sort of book that is sold to the public, not scholarly tomes. But I think I remember seeing some books on the brain in his collection. It's hard to remember, because while I usually sort my books by topic, he usually sorts his by when he purchased them. (In other words, he just sticks them on the shelves as he gets them. :) ) I didn't mean to imply that he had any particular interest in the subject other than that of a voracious consumer of information.

 

Re: No needed to do dishes daisym

Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2004, at 23:10:55

In reply to Re: No needed to do dishes antigua, posted by daisym on August 8, 2004, at 22:18:07

(((Daisy)))

You are *not* a weak soul. Anything but.

And if you ever need someone to talk to, just shout.

 

Re: technical questions Dinah

Posted by JenStar on August 9, 2004, at 0:14:28

In reply to Re: technical questions JenStar, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 21:49:44

Thanks for sharing your story. I was glad to hear it. You sound like a very strong person!

I think your post did make sense. It mirrors what I was trying to say (in a somewhat garbled fashion, probably!) For me too the 'boostrap' method works sometimes, but not always, and even when it does work I get mad at the random 'boostrap advice givers'. Clearly THEY never had to deal with depression, OCD, panic attacks. Because if they really understood it, they'd understand that there are some things that can't be bootstrapped, at least not without the help of an expert bootstrapper and some bootstrap pills. :)

It's like the really thin people who say "it's so simple, if you want to lose weight, eat less," and the relentlessly cheerful people who say, "it's so easy, if you want to be non-depressed, just smile more!"

But I guess there are always going to be people with different views...

JenStar

 

Re: the cart and the horse chasing each other 64bowtie

Posted by AuntieMel on August 9, 2004, at 12:38:30

In reply to (((GardenerGirl)))...., I'm No Polyanna, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 14:59:12

My cart and horse are chasing each other around a tree, so I can't tell which is first....

And, (thanks Dinah for the idea) I will start off by telling you that it is ok for you to be direct with me, and I assume it goes both ways.

This part interested me:

---------------------------------------------------
Picture this! The client is 40 years old and wishes they could be forever young. Never mind the suffering and the drama-trauma of their youth, they want the fun and the care-free spirit they felt they had and now miss. I come along and burst that bubble from all sides, reminding them all was not very hunky-dory after all. I do encourage them to embrace those skills, attributes, abilities, and the power available to adults not available to children. Suddenly, the client can become ready simply by no longer being restricted by childhood ineptitude.
-------------------------------------------------
BACKGROUND:

I lived a childhood of constant emotional torture, with a liberal smattering of good tail whoopins thrown in. Fear was my driving force then, and isolationalism was my survival mechanism. And it worked pretty dang good at the time.

For years I stayed in contact with my father, because I knew I was the type to feel guilt even when I didn't deserve to, and I knew if I shut him out while he was alive I'd be racked with guilt forever. And, in a way that worked too. He was emotionally abusive 'till the day he died, but at least I don't have a guilt burden to go along with it.

I reached 'that moment' when the memories started losing their pain a couple of years ago, a few months after my father died. I was just driving along and it occured to me that my father was dead and I didn't care. I wasn't happy, wasn't sad, just didn't care one way or the other.

THE QUESTION:

So here I am, 50 and adult and I can't relive the care-free days of childhood because I never experienced them. And I'd never consider being forever young because I wouldn't want to relive that torture.

But I would like to have aspects of the childhood I never had. The fun and the care-free spirit that weren't there when they should have. The idea that I'm condemned to be forever an adult without the "protected" growing up experience to learn in is just .............. grim.

So, coach (and I'm not being sarcastic) just how can that be resolved?

 

Smell the roses, w/purpose and gusto AuntieMel

Posted by 64bowtie on August 9, 2004, at 18:14:22

In reply to Re: the cart and the horse chasing each other 64bowtie, posted by AuntieMel on August 9, 2004, at 12:38:30

(((AuntieMel))),

Wow! ...just Wow! Thanx so much. Ya' made my day!

A stategy comes to mind that you might try is to roll up your sleeves and study to expand your awareness of what are adult mankind's talents, skills, abilities, and attributes. Earmak those items unique to adults, that those dang carefree kids don't have and can never do. Then evaluate one by one which are most important. If you go back as far as mid-November posts here, I list

You already dealt with one, that is you can't be blackmailed by misplaced feelings of guilt created by your feelings of obligation to your Dad. As a kid, that wouldn't work. As an adult, you're fine.

Kids don't deal in love, really. It's an asif love more like approval/disapproval. Tis do to the way they store memories as feelings. After the genetic remapping of puberty, things work so much better for the aesthetics. They then store memories as pictures to be called up quickly anotated by a value (feeling), attached to help us organise the storage.

Adults can create in their minds accurately and undistorted in three or more dimensions. Kids have trouble because they must conceptualise in six, two dimensional renderings to equal what adults can do in one, three dimensional rendering. Where would this be important? Piloting a helicopter in a battle zone comes to mind. Many, many variables to manage at one time.

Solving the navigation solutions to send satellites to Mars is another. There are so many variables to keep an eye on at once, that engineers and scientists are often overwhelmed. It wouldn't be easier for kids who can't rely on a 3-d sense of where they are and what's next. I suppose if you get six times as many kids together as it would take for adults to do the job, you could make me a liar.

I went in that bizzarre direction with purpose. If your interests are sorta narrow, you won't be impressed with what I say. Expand your interests and see what that is like. Take a couple of years to see and experience the "new". Don't be timid; be daring. Seek goodness, truth, and beauty in large doses.

Keep an eye out for "conflicted-souls" that can obligate you if you aren't careful. Your Dad taught you the obligation process all toooo well. That makes it only familiar, not good.

Rod

 

Re: Smell the roses, w/purpose and gusto 64bowtie

Posted by AuntieMel on August 9, 2004, at 22:01:23

In reply to Smell the roses, w/purpose and gusto AuntieMel, posted by 64bowtie on August 9, 2004, at 18:14:22

Aha! You've signed up for a tough one, me thinks.

Remember those care-free days I would like to have - not a repeat childhood, but the first one? There were secondary reasons I missed having one. The biggest is that I was a very, very bright kid (my dad made me get tested for mensa so he could brag to one of my aunts. I got in, but it kinda torqued him off when I beat him by 14 points). So, where I hated playing birthday party games, I could handle 3 dimensional abstracts. My memories aren't stored as feelings, either.

But, love wise, I do seem to be stuck in approval/disaproval mode. Maybe that's why I long for a belated childhood? It's like the rest of me skipped it - and didn't go through the emotional maturing that most people do.

But I do seek out new experiences when possible. I love to travel and I'm lucky that my job took me to places that I like to call 'places I'd have never *paid* to go see. I also love learning new things.

It's boredom that really drives me nuts. I'm at that awful state where I've achieved most of my goals (education, job, home and family, finance) and have none of that to work towards. What would make most people happy makes me down. I know I need a new goal, but can't think of anything that would involve me long term.

Careful here - you might be biting off more than you can chew coach;)

Mel

 

Re: coaching

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 10, 2004, at 9:59:20

In reply to Re: the cart and the horse chasing each other 64bowtie, posted by AuntieMel on August 9, 2004, at 12:38:30

> So, coach (and I'm not being sarcastic) just how can that be resolved?

Feel free to go ahead, just remember:

> What you say may conceivably be used against you. Professionals, especially, should be careful not to establish unintentional therapist-patient relationships.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#mission

Bob

 

Re: coaching - no sweat Dr. Bob

Posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2004, at 11:37:36

In reply to Re: coaching, posted by Dr. Bob on August 10, 2004, at 9:59:20

I'm asking for information, not care. I'm throwing in examples from my experience, and the way my brain works, because they seem to be counter to the norm.

But, I'm not getting involved on an emotional level;)

 

Re: technical questions (about the book)

Posted by JenStar on August 11, 2004, at 1:20:34

In reply to Re: technical questions JenStar, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 21:49:44

hi Dinah,
I agree with you about Gaylin's message - it IS about the therapeutic relationship. Overall I found his book to be very interesting and I though his technique of relating seemed very solid.

At the end of the book he included a segment on how to get past people's blocks and self-imposed neuroses. An example he used was the 'wall of fat' -- he discussed (without ANY disclaimers) that obese people have chosen obesity, and to help them slim down, you have to address the reasons they chronically overeat.

This is one of my hot buttons, because I think to some people the addiction to food is akin to an alcohol or tobacco addiction, and although there are MANY psychological components to eating (comfort, fear, etc.) there may also be biological reasons too. It doesn't mean that we should all sit on our butts and say "I'm fat and there's nothing I can do about it!" but I did think his assessment of obesity was pat and smug and not entirely correct.

Anyway, although I had enjoyed his book and found it informative, when I read THAT section my defenses went up and I got all irritated at him. It was kind of like enjoying a wonderful salad and then finding a roach at the bottom of the bowl!

-- although, now that I think about it, I probably SHOULD be having more salads and less doritos...then I won't get so incensed by 'wall of fat' comments...

!!!

Thanks for listening to me gripe.
Jen(Fat) Star

 

Re: technical questions (about the book) JenStar

Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2004, at 1:29:06

In reply to Re: technical questions (about the book), posted by JenStar on August 11, 2004, at 1:20:34

Chuckle. I have weight issues of my own. :) I must not have really taken that part in.

However, in my case, I must plead guilty to using food as a mood stabilizer. Tired? Drink some coke. Anxious? Loads of pasta will put me right to sleep. As a diabetic person, and probably before that as an insulin sensitive person, food works better than meds to regulate my moods. More quickly and with less immediate side effects, though obviously bad long term side effects.

But that's just me and doesn't apply to anyone else at all. :)


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