Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 372818

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Re: amazingly strong! pinkeye

Posted by partlycloudy on August 4, 2004, at 13:29:54

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by pinkeye on August 4, 2004, at 13:06:07

It's all in how the message is delivered. The article by our Babble guest (at the top of the Admin page) really says it all. I find that in many posts, it "appears" that people are being lectured, rather than an alternative opinion being offered. I have gone back and re-read some posts that have upset me in the past, and they still sting with an accusatory tone.

my 2 cents

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:22:55

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:56:51

JenStar,
I agree with you about the tendency towards ultra-reliance on therapists and feel that some therapists cultivate that. Maybe because it makes them feel good about themselves.

I also think that sometimes people revel in their problems and issues instead of making actual changes that could really be beneficial. I think that's one reason why I've had it with therapists. I know what happened in my past, I've dredged it up with therapist after therapist, and I'm tired of talking about it. I'm tired of letting all that crap spill out of my mouth and as long as I do, I'm just perpetuating that reality. What I really want is to move on and have a better reality, which at this point, is my responsibility to create.
starlight

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by lucy stone on August 4, 2004, at 15:33:47

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

But what are people after? Some people come here just for support, they have no where in their real lives to get it. Sometimes they just need to vent, to tell their story to people who will try and understand and respond in a non-judgemental manner. Many of the things people post here are extremely private, things they don't tell even to their spouse or their Ts. These people may not be looking for advice on how to fix their issues, they may just be looking for understanding. If people are looking for advice this is a great place to get it, but I think it is insensitive to offer advice to people who aren't looking for it. It may be hard to distinguish who is looking for support and who is looking for advice, but I always try and err on the side of support. Some of the behaviors people have here are chronic and people are repeating them over and over again. Some behaviors are deeply embedded and difficult to get rid of, and I doubt that they can be fixed by advice on an internet message board. Of course, many of the people here are working on those behaviors in therapy and many are making progress, however slow it may seem to someone looking in from the outside.

> I agree with you in some ways - the web is a great place to receive mutual support and affection. There ARE a lot of interesting and supportive people here!
>
> But I also think that boards like babble (and others) can encourage a 'group mentality' to arise, a shared 'we suffer so, and we can't really be fixed' mentality that encourages people not to take charge of their lives and make better decisions.
>
> People write about bad decisions and difficult problems, are are met with understanding. Sometimes, too MUCH understanding! It's easy to say soothing words, not so easy to offer constructive criticism, and I think we sometimes offer each other a 'everything is OK, do what you want' attitude instead of offering real-life advice on how to really fix issues.
>
> Sometimes that is all a person wants -- some soothing -- and then fully intends to go fix problems on their own after getting some TLC.
>
> But from what I read here, the problems are often chronic in nature, and the behaviors repeat over and over again. sometimes I think it's not so healthy to read about this too much, because it makes some of the bad decisions seem OK -- and I don't want that.
>
>
> There is also the chronic undertone of ultra-reliance on therapists that I just think is unhealthy. (Of course, the answer to me would be: If it's unhealthy for you, then stay away!)
>
>
> I can fully understand how some therapists would read this board and advise certain people to stay away and find other places to get support.
>
> Anyway, I know that was a mouthful. I DO like Babble...I just need to set limits for myself on how much I read & participate.
>
> Good luck to all!
> JenStar
>

 

Redirect: questions or comments about block

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2004, at 16:59:02

In reply to Re: blocked for week fires, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2004, at 17:52:07

> If you have any other questions or comments about this ... please ... redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration

Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/374103.html

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar starlight

Posted by gardenergirl on August 4, 2004, at 17:10:16

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:22:55

I wish you good luck with that.

gg

 

Re: please rephrase that vwoolf

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2004, at 17:13:37

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by vwoolf on August 4, 2004, at 8:58:14

> I find your message hurtful.

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused, could you please rephrase that?

It tends to be more conducive to harmony to talk about how you feel than what someone else did, for example, to use an I-statement:

http://www.crnhq.org/windskill4.html

like "I feel put down by what you said" instead of a you-statement like "you're so arrogant". But please don't just word the latter as the former:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html

If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, please feel free to redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar starlight

Posted by pegasus on August 4, 2004, at 17:33:25

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:22:55

> I agree with you about the tendency towards ultra-reliance on therapists and feel that some therapists cultivate that. Maybe because it makes them feel good about themselves.

Well, there are probably therapists who cultivate dependence because it makes them feel good. But it *is* against the codes of ethics of all therapy-related professional organizations.

A lot of therapists believe that it is therapeutic for the clients to learn to depend on their therapist. This is a cornerstone of many theoretical orientations. It is thought to lead to "corrective emotional experiences" (in the terms of one theoretical orientation). The idea is that depending on your therapist will have a positive outcome (we hope), so that it can contrast to the negative outcomes dependence has led to in the history of so many people who are in therapy.

pegasus

 

Re: Aphrodite and Daisy

Posted by terrics on August 4, 2004, at 19:29:02

In reply to I have requested before that you do not post to me (nm) fires, posted by Aphrodite on August 2, 2004, at 13:02:11

Hi to both of you. I hope it is ok to put in my 2 cents. Daisy is giving you wonderful advice Aphrodite. I pretty much stopped coming here too. Now I will stay but not open posts by certain posters. I really cannot take the upset even if it is not directed at me. terrics

 

Re: Aphrodite and Daisy terrics

Posted by Aphrodite on August 4, 2004, at 20:34:00

In reply to Re: Aphrodite and Daisy, posted by terrics on August 4, 2004, at 19:29:02

Hi Terrics,

Good to hear from you. I didn't realize you were gone, but then again, I've been away too. I missed you and the other posters who were so supportive.

I hope you are doing well with your DBT. If you want, please feel free to email me at babbleaphrodite at yahoo dot com. Some posters emailed me, and I found that to be a safe way to have support.

((((Terrics)))))

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 5, 2004, at 14:33:48

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar ? starlight, posted by pegasus on August 4, 2004, at 17:33:25

When I say that it makes them feel good about themselves, I think it's more of a subconcious thing. To a degree I think we all want to be needed, it makes us feel better about ourselves. You know what they say, -it's better to give than to receive. Why? Because it makes us feel like better people.

I guess to me it's a form of enabling or codependence. Look at what Jadah's had to go through by depending on her therapist - even though getting into a sexual relationship with a therapist only happens a fraction of the time, it most likely wouldn't have happened had he not cultivated her dependence. It gives the therapist a lot of power.

Don't get me wrong - I don't know anything other than the thoughts that arise from my experiences with docs and therapists - of which I've had many.
starlight

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by JenStar on August 5, 2004, at 23:41:20

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by vwoolf on August 4, 2004, at 8:58:14

hi V,
can I ask why you found the message hurtful? I'd like to know why you feel that way.

Hope you're having a good evening.

JenStar

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:56:51

hi there! :) Looks like I sparked an interesting follow-up set of comments. Thanks to everyone who responded, because I appreciate reading your points of view and learning how you feel.

Susan, your comment about your T was intriguing, and naturally (being nosy) I'm curious to know why you are not happy with the situation -- but if it's too personal, I retract the question. :)

I've been doing a lot of reading lately on different kinds of therapy, and the whole topic is fascinating to me.

In every book I read BY a therapist, (MD's and/or PhD's), the therapist made it clear that it was important for the person receiving therapy to 'give themselves over' to the process, completely trust the T, and allow their transferences to take over. I did read a certain arrogance and presumption of "I know best" in each of the books. I don't know if this is shared by all T's (I supposed it MUST, in a sense - otherwise why become one, if you don't best know the ways to help cure someone?) But it turned me off, somehow. I guess I prefer people who are strong confident of their skills but have a disarming kind of humility as well instead of an arrogant air; that always seems to charm me.

I guess what fascinates me MOST is that here is this therapist -- a human being (just like me!) and he/she plans to become the most influential, important person in my life and will help me with all major life decisions. That's a heavy burden, and not everyone is really capable of doing it well. I know not all T's operate this way, but the authors of several books seem to believe that is the best way.

It just seems scary to give yourself over this way to someone who is not perfect and probably doesn't know all the answers; someone who is biased (even if they don't want to be).

That's why I'm so opposed to the idea of a person becoming SO reliant on a T. How do you know this person is really doing you any good? How can you tell? How can you tell when they're NOT doing you good? When is transference healthy and when is it flypaper for both of you? And can you REALLY trust the T to know?

But it's fun (at least for me) to think about these kinds of things. I like to debate things, with myself and with others.

I guess I need a therapist who's perfect and likes to argue. (grin.)

JenStar

 

Hi JenStar

Posted by Susan47 on August 6, 2004, at 10:12:54

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

Thanks for your insight. I feel very much that becoming too reliant on a therapist is a bad idea... and I let my therapist know that, too. I believe he was ready to take on the role of Father Knows Best, but I never did allow that. Perhaps that was my own issue. BUt honestly, JenStar, I was falling in *love* with the man. I had to ask him to stop giving me visual feedback. Sometimes when I said something that he didn't swallow, I could *read* the disappointment on his face. And when I said things that he related to well, I read that too, and I thought, "here's a really nice person, he's gorgeous and he cares,.... and he's like this with everyone, hon, remember that." So my defences were immediately up about that. I knew I would be hurt because I couldn't separate him from the job he was doing. And we just ended up having a terrible *therapeutic* (hah) relationship. Maybe it's just not a good idea to go to a therapist whom you're really attracted to.
Giving him too much credit? I mean, there were times I felt like I was going to really hurt myself, and I was frightened, and I called his ans. mach. saying how I felt, and he never once brought these things up in session. It would have been helpful if he taught me some coping skills, and gave me something to hang onto at the times when that happened, something he said, perhaps, but he let me down. I really believe that if I had killed myself, it would have been a relief to him. So that's what I mean by giving him too much credit.
Thanks for listening.

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar JenStar

Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 10:59:44

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

JenStar, I just wanted to thank you for this post. It helps me quite a bit to hear where you're coming from in this topic, and that you're interested in hearing different experiences.

I wish I had the brainpower to answer you right now, or the time, but I'll give it some consideration.

I suppose my general answer, though, is that we're all different and we all need different things. What's appropriate for one client may be inappropriate and even totally incomprehensible for another.

As for knowing when it's valuable to be dependent on a therapist and when it's harmful, I wish there was a clear set of guidelines to determine that. Because when you're in the middle of *any* situation, it's hard to be objective about it yourself. I'd say that it's wise to obtain a consultation if you have any doubts. Perhaps there should even be professional guidelines for periodic, maybe once a year, consultations. And you have to trust your gut to some extent. And the objective evidence as to whether you're doing better or worse. I get feedback from friends and family from time to time. My husband is violently opposed to my leaving therapy, if that is a somewhat objective opinion.

And I suppose that most of the most valuable experiences in life involve risk. Those things that have the greatest potential to help us also have the greatest potential to hurt us. (Just think of marriage - lol.)

And for me, becoming dependent on the therapist and then going through a natural and healthy growth away from him (as I think I'm beginning to do now, but I'm fighting it) has helped me quite a bit in feeling like I can rely on myself. Because I'm being allowed to move into that at my own pace, as opposed to being prematurely being thrown into it as I was in my family of origin.

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 6, 2004, at 12:20:36

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

Jen,
You captured my thoiughts completely and eloquently. I'm not going to give myself over completely to anyone, not even my husband, who is the person I'm closest to. That seems so unhealthy, and there is no real basis for establishing that level of trust other than the hope that the therapist will do you right.

Excellent post.
starlight

 

Re: Hi JenStar for Susan

Posted by starlight on August 6, 2004, at 12:43:22

In reply to Hi JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 6, 2004, at 10:12:54

Hey Susan,
I don't know your background, but I do know that when you're reading a person's every facial expression and all the non verbal cues that's hypervigilance, (I know, because I can do the same exact thing). Hypervigilance can be great because it's an excellent self protective mechanism, but it can also cause problems in that your self destructive side can use it to manipulate people to it's advantage. You kind of have to make peace with it and recognize it's helpful aspects and then set it aside in situations where it's not appropriate.

I went through a phase where I was attracted to my boss. Luckily, he has outstanding boundaries. My last boss didn't and told me that he was in love with me, which was great since I was trying to decide on whether to take his permanent job or my current and obviously I left him in a rush after telling him that he was really in love with his wife and he was in transferrance mode because we were friends and I listened to his woes unconditionally and with support.

My current boss is kind of like a father figure, which has been healing because he's so dedicated to his family, which has shown me that a healthy family life is possible. At first I struggled with the flirtatious feelings and attraction, but our relationship has become very healthy over time and I appreciate his strength and appropriateness, especially after my last experience.

Perhaps you should try to observe that hypervigilance part of you, distance yourself and just put yourself in the observer role. Amazing things can happen when you do that. Your awareness of your own behavior and ability to not engage will develop even more.
starlight

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 6, 2004, at 13:14:38

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar ? JenStar, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 10:59:44

Hi Dinah,
I read your post and wanted to say that I don't think that you or anyone else should take what I say regarding therapists to mean that I think you should ditch therapy all together.

All I mean by my comments is that I don't agree with being completely dependent on one. It's kind of like taking what people say with a grain of salt. I just personally think it's unhealthy to completely depend on anyone. You can never know what another person's hidden agenda is, even if they perceive it as being completely altruistic. Just the fact that there are so many different forms of therapy and they all think their way is the best way, is enough to clue me in, that they can't all be right.
Starlight

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar starlight

Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 16:05:57

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by starlight on August 6, 2004, at 13:14:38

> Just the fact that there are so many different forms of therapy and they all think their way is the best way, is enough to clue me in, that they can't all be right.
> Starlight

That's one possible conclusion. Another is that they can't all be right for *all* people. That there are so many types of therapy because there are so many types of people. Some people swear by therapy techniques that did nothing for me. But they were helped, and that's what counts. Just a bad "fit" for me, a good "fit" for others. Maybe some forms of therapies help larger number of clients than others, but that doesn't negate the value of a form of therapy that helps fewer people if it helps a person who isn't helped by the more "popular" therapies. And the right therapy for some people might be no therapy at all.

One size very definitely does not fit all. And it pays to be an educated therapy consumer.

 

Starlight

Posted by Susan47 on August 6, 2004, at 20:47:42

In reply to Re: Hi JenStar for Susan, posted by starlight on August 6, 2004, at 12:43:22

Thanks for your words. I believe I've heard "hypervigilance" mentioned in relation to myself in the past. Hmm. Okay.
How does my hypervigilance, then, contribute to manipulation? I'm interested in that aspect, because a part of me always worries that another part of me is trying to manipulate someone for something. I can't stand that distrust in myself. Sometimes it's so easy to see other people manipulate someone; you can really see through them, even though that person might be completely unaware of what they're doing; but something about it strikes me still as dishonest (is that oxymoronic, unaware and dishonest?), and I don't want that for myself *or* anybody around me. I like to think the people around me are strong enough to withstand any b***sh** I try to throw their way, and will definitely call me on it should they see that in me. Yuck. I mean yuck, that is just so gross. I'm so scared it's me. Help!!
How do we adults, who were trained to be hypervigilant as kids in order to survive that time, put it away so that we can trust without having to feel manipulative and scared as adults? I don't know, maybe I'm just being manipulative.

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by vwoolf on August 7, 2004, at 16:16:28

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 5, 2004, at 23:41:20


JenStar, I had a knee-jerk reaction to your message, for which I apologise. I have been feeling deeply depressed and suicidal for a few days, and on reading your message, I felt as if I was being labelled a chronic psychiatric case. I have been persecuting myself with lots of crazy thoughts and names, and this seemed like an extra one from an outside source, which is why I was so hurt. Thanks for your follow-up. V

 

Re: amazingly strong! vwoolf

Posted by Aphrodite on August 7, 2004, at 16:42:23

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by vwoolf on August 7, 2004, at 16:16:28

Are you feeling better? Hope all is well -- I know how incredibly hard it can be.

 

Re: amazingly strong! Aphrodite

Posted by vwoolf on August 7, 2004, at 17:14:52

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! vwoolf, posted by Aphrodite on August 7, 2004, at 16:42:23

Thanks Aphrodite. I'm feeling slightly better but not much. I feel I would be better off in hospital but my T is reluctant. She says nothing will take away this pain.

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by Susan47 on August 7, 2004, at 17:38:46

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! Aphrodite, posted by vwoolf on August 7, 2004, at 17:14:52

vwoolf,
Maybe you know better than your T. Sometimes t's don't want to admit failure. I'm sure mine didn't. If you feel you'd be better off in hospital, you might be right. I'm sorry, but her line about nothing will take away this pain just sounds a bit pat.

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by JenStar on August 7, 2004, at 19:49:50

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by vwoolf on August 7, 2004, at 16:16:28

hi V,
there's no need to apologize for feeling a certain way! You can't help the way you feel.

I'm sorry my message came across wrong. I honestly had no intention of making people feel bad. I think I was having a bad day (not as bad as your sounds, though) and I failed to double-check my message for 'the jerk factor' before I posted it.

I hope you're doing well. I'm so sorry that you're feeling depressed & suicidal.

Are you feeling better today, at all? Maybe up for a top 10 positive list? Top 10 nice names to call yourself...top 10 ways that you are cool?

I have one already. You are definitely a thoughtful person who is interested in making friends. Just the fact that you responded to me despite your hurt tells me that.

I hope you're well!
take care.
JenStar

 

Re: Starlight

Posted by starlight on August 9, 2004, at 14:28:21

In reply to Starlight, posted by Susan47 on August 6, 2004, at 20:47:42

First of all, your childhood hypervigilance did an excellent job of protecting you and as an adult it can serve you as well. The problem is if you're hypervigilant all the time, it wears you down. I think identifying, acknowleging and appreciating that part of you is integral.

The next part of it, is putting yourself in the observer or witness mind. Instead of being caught up or engaging in all the things going on in your life (the egoic mind), separate yourself and watch, observe instead. Remove your mind from all the action and watch from a distance, it's an excellent tool. You might look for a book on Jyana Yoga, the yoga of self inquiry, it can help you understand that method.

Manipulation is inherent in human behavior. But when you become more aware of the actions you take you have better control over how you use it, which is really the more important factor - not to eliminate it entirely, but rather to know when and how to use it and for the right purposes.
starlight


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