Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 372818

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Re: Fires - sorry to be a pest, but.... AuntieMel

Posted by fires on August 3, 2004, at 15:05:15

In reply to Re: Fires - sorry to be a pest, but.... fires, posted by AuntieMel on August 3, 2004, at 14:57:23

> FYI - in case you don't know all the babble rules - posting to someone that requested that you don't is a blocking offense around here.
>
> Now, about that separate thread? You pick a topic.

Re: Babble rules. How is one to remember who said that they can't reply to them? With all the subject line changes and presumed name changes: Who's on first?

Don't have time for new thread now.

bye

 

Re: Fires I'll start one below (nm) fires

Posted by AuntieMel on August 3, 2004, at 16:13:47

In reply to Re: Fires - sorry to be a pest, but.... AuntieMel, posted by fires on August 3, 2004, at 15:05:15

 

Re: blocked for week fires

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2004, at 17:52:07

In reply to Re: Why I came back Aphrodite, posted by fires on August 1, 2004, at 20:13:16

> What trolls? I belieived I was falsely accused of being one.

Please don't post to someone who asks you not to:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358406.html

I've asked you before to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.

> How is one to remember who said that they can't reply to them?

Write it down? If you have any other questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, please see the FAQ:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#harassed

or email me, or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration after your block is over.

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

In reply to amazingly strong!, posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 17:51:33

I agree with you in some ways - the web is a great place to receive mutual support and affection. There ARE a lot of interesting and supportive people here!

But I also think that boards like babble (and others) can encourage a 'group mentality' to arise, a shared 'we suffer so, and we can't really be fixed' mentality that encourages people not to take charge of their lives and make better decisions.

People write about bad decisions and difficult problems, are are met with understanding. Sometimes, too MUCH understanding! It's easy to say soothing words, not so easy to offer constructive criticism, and I think we sometimes offer each other a 'everything is OK, do what you want' attitude instead of offering real-life advice on how to really fix issues.

Sometimes that is all a person wants -- some soothing -- and then fully intends to go fix problems on their own after getting some TLC.

But from what I read here, the problems are often chronic in nature, and the behaviors repeat over and over again. sometimes I think it's not so healthy to read about this too much, because it makes some of the bad decisions seem OK -- and I don't want that.

There is also the chronic undertone of ultra-reliance on therapists that I just think is unhealthy. (Of course, the answer to me would be: If it's unhealthy for you, then stay away!)


I can fully understand how some therapists would read this board and advise certain people to stay away and find other places to get support.

Anyway, I know that was a mouthful. I DO like Babble...I just need to set limits for myself on how much I read & participate.

Good luck to all!
JenStar

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by vwoolf on August 4, 2004, at 8:58:14

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

I find your message hurtful.

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:54:15

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

vwoolf, try not to let yourself be hurt by JenStar's message. From her point of view, that's the way things are. Your view might be completely different because you're coming from a different place right now.

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:56:51

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

I'm glad you spoke your mind at the top of this board today. I was feeling like I wanted to say the same things to J, but I was afraid of turning her away.
In addition, I realized last night that I have been way to good to my therapist, I've been giving him too much credit, there's a feeling of support for the therapist on the board that I might have to fight against in order to see things really clearly. Therapists really do have the edge.

 

Re: amazingly strong! Susan47

Posted by Dinah on August 4, 2004, at 11:38:25

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:56:51

I think you might mis-take the position towards therapists on this board. Therapist bashing is a prime hobby - our own mainly I admit.

What you might be seeing is a reluctance on most of our parts to interfere in a therapeutic relationship unless it appears grossly abusive. Because after all, this is an internet bulletin board, we don't have the full story. I don't think we're shy about suggesting that people bring concerns to discuss with their own therapist or to obtain a consultation with a third party. But we may be reluctant to engage in therapy-interfering behaviors unless the therapist is clearly violating professional ethics, just as we would probably be reluctant to engage in marriage-interfering behaviors unless there was abuse involved.

My therapist has been extremely annoyed with me in the past, not for discussing my therapy with others, but for allowing others who have no familiarity with how long term therapy works to shake my trust in him or the process without discussing it with him. Of course, I generally do discuss it with him, even if it takes a while. I've also had one outright consultation, and several adjunct therapies where my therapy was discussed. Most outside "authorities" thought we had a very good and healthy therapeutic relationship. One didn't, but as I didn't think much of his technique in general, that didn't surprise me overmuch.

My therapist has been criticized, and I've agreed with the criticism sometimes, and other times not.

I don't think therapists get a free ride here. We're generally informed consumers who demand a lot from our therapists and know when they're falling short.

 

FOR FIRES

Posted by AuntieMel on August 4, 2004, at 12:38:29

In reply to Re: Fires - sorry to be a pest, but.... AuntieMel, posted by fires on August 3, 2004, at 15:05:15

I hope you are still reading.

You can contact me if you want to

AuntieMel
at
gmail
dotcom

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by pinkeye on August 4, 2004, at 13:06:07

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

I agree with JenStar. Sometimes, this board tries to be too nice to people. It is good most of the times to help heal. But sometimes, it makes us look the other way to reality.
Posting very hurting messages should not be encouraged, but mild pointing to reality atleast should be encouraged.
Especially with chronic problems that is obviously the patient's mistake, we still try to be very supportive instead of pointing out that the person is obviously very wrong. And sometimes when you try to point out, people feel put down instead of taking it in a right spirit.

 

Re: amazingly strong! pinkeye

Posted by partlycloudy on August 4, 2004, at 13:29:54

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by pinkeye on August 4, 2004, at 13:06:07

It's all in how the message is delivered. The article by our Babble guest (at the top of the Admin page) really says it all. I find that in many posts, it "appears" that people are being lectured, rather than an alternative opinion being offered. I have gone back and re-read some posts that have upset me in the past, and they still sting with an accusatory tone.

my 2 cents

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:22:55

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:56:51

JenStar,
I agree with you about the tendency towards ultra-reliance on therapists and feel that some therapists cultivate that. Maybe because it makes them feel good about themselves.

I also think that sometimes people revel in their problems and issues instead of making actual changes that could really be beneficial. I think that's one reason why I've had it with therapists. I know what happened in my past, I've dredged it up with therapist after therapist, and I'm tired of talking about it. I'm tired of letting all that crap spill out of my mouth and as long as I do, I'm just perpetuating that reality. What I really want is to move on and have a better reality, which at this point, is my responsibility to create.
starlight

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by lucy stone on August 4, 2004, at 15:33:47

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 2:09:55

But what are people after? Some people come here just for support, they have no where in their real lives to get it. Sometimes they just need to vent, to tell their story to people who will try and understand and respond in a non-judgemental manner. Many of the things people post here are extremely private, things they don't tell even to their spouse or their Ts. These people may not be looking for advice on how to fix their issues, they may just be looking for understanding. If people are looking for advice this is a great place to get it, but I think it is insensitive to offer advice to people who aren't looking for it. It may be hard to distinguish who is looking for support and who is looking for advice, but I always try and err on the side of support. Some of the behaviors people have here are chronic and people are repeating them over and over again. Some behaviors are deeply embedded and difficult to get rid of, and I doubt that they can be fixed by advice on an internet message board. Of course, many of the people here are working on those behaviors in therapy and many are making progress, however slow it may seem to someone looking in from the outside.

> I agree with you in some ways - the web is a great place to receive mutual support and affection. There ARE a lot of interesting and supportive people here!
>
> But I also think that boards like babble (and others) can encourage a 'group mentality' to arise, a shared 'we suffer so, and we can't really be fixed' mentality that encourages people not to take charge of their lives and make better decisions.
>
> People write about bad decisions and difficult problems, are are met with understanding. Sometimes, too MUCH understanding! It's easy to say soothing words, not so easy to offer constructive criticism, and I think we sometimes offer each other a 'everything is OK, do what you want' attitude instead of offering real-life advice on how to really fix issues.
>
> Sometimes that is all a person wants -- some soothing -- and then fully intends to go fix problems on their own after getting some TLC.
>
> But from what I read here, the problems are often chronic in nature, and the behaviors repeat over and over again. sometimes I think it's not so healthy to read about this too much, because it makes some of the bad decisions seem OK -- and I don't want that.
>
>
> There is also the chronic undertone of ultra-reliance on therapists that I just think is unhealthy. (Of course, the answer to me would be: If it's unhealthy for you, then stay away!)
>
>
> I can fully understand how some therapists would read this board and advise certain people to stay away and find other places to get support.
>
> Anyway, I know that was a mouthful. I DO like Babble...I just need to set limits for myself on how much I read & participate.
>
> Good luck to all!
> JenStar
>

 

Redirect: questions or comments about block

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2004, at 16:59:02

In reply to Re: blocked for week fires, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2004, at 17:52:07

> If you have any other questions or comments about this ... please ... redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration

Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/374103.html

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar starlight

Posted by gardenergirl on August 4, 2004, at 17:10:16

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:22:55

I wish you good luck with that.

gg

 

Re: please rephrase that vwoolf

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2004, at 17:13:37

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by vwoolf on August 4, 2004, at 8:58:14

> I find your message hurtful.

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused, could you please rephrase that?

It tends to be more conducive to harmony to talk about how you feel than what someone else did, for example, to use an I-statement:

http://www.crnhq.org/windskill4.html

like "I feel put down by what you said" instead of a you-statement like "you're so arrogant". But please don't just word the latter as the former:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html

If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, please feel free to redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar starlight

Posted by pegasus on August 4, 2004, at 17:33:25

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:22:55

> I agree with you about the tendency towards ultra-reliance on therapists and feel that some therapists cultivate that. Maybe because it makes them feel good about themselves.

Well, there are probably therapists who cultivate dependence because it makes them feel good. But it *is* against the codes of ethics of all therapy-related professional organizations.

A lot of therapists believe that it is therapeutic for the clients to learn to depend on their therapist. This is a cornerstone of many theoretical orientations. It is thought to lead to "corrective emotional experiences" (in the terms of one theoretical orientation). The idea is that depending on your therapist will have a positive outcome (we hope), so that it can contrast to the negative outcomes dependence has led to in the history of so many people who are in therapy.

pegasus

 

Re: Aphrodite and Daisy

Posted by terrics on August 4, 2004, at 19:29:02

In reply to I have requested before that you do not post to me (nm) fires, posted by Aphrodite on August 2, 2004, at 13:02:11

Hi to both of you. I hope it is ok to put in my 2 cents. Daisy is giving you wonderful advice Aphrodite. I pretty much stopped coming here too. Now I will stay but not open posts by certain posters. I really cannot take the upset even if it is not directed at me. terrics

 

Re: Aphrodite and Daisy terrics

Posted by Aphrodite on August 4, 2004, at 20:34:00

In reply to Re: Aphrodite and Daisy, posted by terrics on August 4, 2004, at 19:29:02

Hi Terrics,

Good to hear from you. I didn't realize you were gone, but then again, I've been away too. I missed you and the other posters who were so supportive.

I hope you are doing well with your DBT. If you want, please feel free to email me at babbleaphrodite at yahoo dot com. Some posters emailed me, and I found that to be a safe way to have support.

((((Terrics)))))

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 5, 2004, at 14:33:48

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar ? starlight, posted by pegasus on August 4, 2004, at 17:33:25

When I say that it makes them feel good about themselves, I think it's more of a subconcious thing. To a degree I think we all want to be needed, it makes us feel better about ourselves. You know what they say, -it's better to give than to receive. Why? Because it makes us feel like better people.

I guess to me it's a form of enabling or codependence. Look at what Jadah's had to go through by depending on her therapist - even though getting into a sexual relationship with a therapist only happens a fraction of the time, it most likely wouldn't have happened had he not cultivated her dependence. It gives the therapist a lot of power.

Don't get me wrong - I don't know anything other than the thoughts that arise from my experiences with docs and therapists - of which I've had many.
starlight

 

Re: amazingly strong!

Posted by JenStar on August 5, 2004, at 23:41:20

In reply to Re: amazingly strong!, posted by vwoolf on August 4, 2004, at 8:58:14

hi V,
can I ask why you found the message hurtful? I'd like to know why you feel that way.

Hope you're having a good evening.

JenStar

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 4, 2004, at 9:56:51

hi there! :) Looks like I sparked an interesting follow-up set of comments. Thanks to everyone who responded, because I appreciate reading your points of view and learning how you feel.

Susan, your comment about your T was intriguing, and naturally (being nosy) I'm curious to know why you are not happy with the situation -- but if it's too personal, I retract the question. :)

I've been doing a lot of reading lately on different kinds of therapy, and the whole topic is fascinating to me.

In every book I read BY a therapist, (MD's and/or PhD's), the therapist made it clear that it was important for the person receiving therapy to 'give themselves over' to the process, completely trust the T, and allow their transferences to take over. I did read a certain arrogance and presumption of "I know best" in each of the books. I don't know if this is shared by all T's (I supposed it MUST, in a sense - otherwise why become one, if you don't best know the ways to help cure someone?) But it turned me off, somehow. I guess I prefer people who are strong confident of their skills but have a disarming kind of humility as well instead of an arrogant air; that always seems to charm me.

I guess what fascinates me MOST is that here is this therapist -- a human being (just like me!) and he/she plans to become the most influential, important person in my life and will help me with all major life decisions. That's a heavy burden, and not everyone is really capable of doing it well. I know not all T's operate this way, but the authors of several books seem to believe that is the best way.

It just seems scary to give yourself over this way to someone who is not perfect and probably doesn't know all the answers; someone who is biased (even if they don't want to be).

That's why I'm so opposed to the idea of a person becoming SO reliant on a T. How do you know this person is really doing you any good? How can you tell? How can you tell when they're NOT doing you good? When is transference healthy and when is it flypaper for both of you? And can you REALLY trust the T to know?

But it's fun (at least for me) to think about these kinds of things. I like to debate things, with myself and with others.

I guess I need a therapist who's perfect and likes to argue. (grin.)

JenStar

 

Hi JenStar

Posted by Susan47 on August 6, 2004, at 10:12:54

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

Thanks for your insight. I feel very much that becoming too reliant on a therapist is a bad idea... and I let my therapist know that, too. I believe he was ready to take on the role of Father Knows Best, but I never did allow that. Perhaps that was my own issue. BUt honestly, JenStar, I was falling in *love* with the man. I had to ask him to stop giving me visual feedback. Sometimes when I said something that he didn't swallow, I could *read* the disappointment on his face. And when I said things that he related to well, I read that too, and I thought, "here's a really nice person, he's gorgeous and he cares,.... and he's like this with everyone, hon, remember that." So my defences were immediately up about that. I knew I would be hurt because I couldn't separate him from the job he was doing. And we just ended up having a terrible *therapeutic* (hah) relationship. Maybe it's just not a good idea to go to a therapist whom you're really attracted to.
Giving him too much credit? I mean, there were times I felt like I was going to really hurt myself, and I was frightened, and I called his ans. mach. saying how I felt, and he never once brought these things up in session. It would have been helpful if he taught me some coping skills, and gave me something to hang onto at the times when that happened, something he said, perhaps, but he let me down. I really believe that if I had killed myself, it would have been a relief to him. So that's what I mean by giving him too much credit.
Thanks for listening.

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar JenStar

Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2004, at 10:59:44

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

JenStar, I just wanted to thank you for this post. It helps me quite a bit to hear where you're coming from in this topic, and that you're interested in hearing different experiences.

I wish I had the brainpower to answer you right now, or the time, but I'll give it some consideration.

I suppose my general answer, though, is that we're all different and we all need different things. What's appropriate for one client may be inappropriate and even totally incomprehensible for another.

As for knowing when it's valuable to be dependent on a therapist and when it's harmful, I wish there was a clear set of guidelines to determine that. Because when you're in the middle of *any* situation, it's hard to be objective about it yourself. I'd say that it's wise to obtain a consultation if you have any doubts. Perhaps there should even be professional guidelines for periodic, maybe once a year, consultations. And you have to trust your gut to some extent. And the objective evidence as to whether you're doing better or worse. I get feedback from friends and family from time to time. My husband is violently opposed to my leaving therapy, if that is a somewhat objective opinion.

And I suppose that most of the most valuable experiences in life involve risk. Those things that have the greatest potential to help us also have the greatest potential to hurt us. (Just think of marriage - lol.)

And for me, becoming dependent on the therapist and then going through a natural and healthy growth away from him (as I think I'm beginning to do now, but I'm fighting it) has helped me quite a bit in feeling like I can rely on myself. Because I'm being allowed to move into that at my own pace, as opposed to being prematurely being thrown into it as I was in my family of origin.

 

Re: amazingly strong! JenStar

Posted by starlight on August 6, 2004, at 12:20:36

In reply to Re: amazingly strong! JenStar, posted by JenStar on August 6, 2004, at 0:01:20

Jen,
You captured my thoiughts completely and eloquently. I'm not going to give myself over completely to anyone, not even my husband, who is the person I'm closest to. That seems so unhealthy, and there is no real basis for establishing that level of trust other than the hope that the therapist will do you right.

Excellent post.
starlight


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