Psycho-Babble Politics Thread 1052214

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Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by baseball55 on October 15, 2013, at 19:56:57

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 15, 2013, at 14:08:22

Economics is extremely ideological. Hotly contested. Because,really, what is more important? Who gets what. The role of government in the economy. Social responsibilty vs individual responsibility. The level of wages in the world economy. Poverty and what that means and what goverments should do to counter it. On and on. Ethical, political controversy.
This is why economics is not taught in American high schools - too controversial, like teaching religion.

Even at the college level, there are economists who don't talk to one another, who have sided with one political ideology or another.

So, for example, the debt ceiling. There are some who think the congress should not raise the debt ceiling, since this would force the government to run a balanced budget. There are others who oppose balanced budgets, since they require that governments cut spending in recessions, when tax revenues fall.

There is as much dispute in economics as there is in politics. It's the same issues, really.

can recommend a book -- old and out-of-print, but still available cheaply on amazon -- called Economics Explained. It's a bit out of date (the primary author died several year ago), but still a worthwhile read.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2013, at 1:19:28

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 15, 2013, at 19:56:57

i don't understand any of this. i think i'm going to pick economics as my elective next year.

i think there should be a basic competency standard for voting, too. one should at least be able to say something about what policies each candidate stands for or something like that. but then one should also be able to say something sensible about why one prefers those policies, as you say.

the division of wealth upsets me. how some people have millions... while others have nothing. that doesn't seem fair. but then the more i learn about some of those people who appear to have nothing... well... get me far away from them and i might have more empathy for their plight...

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 16, 2013, at 18:17:03

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 15, 2013, at 19:56:57

>can recommend a book -- old and out-of-print, but still available cheaply on amazon -- called Economics Explained.

Great! Thanks.

I have read that the efficient markets hypothesis is a species of utopianism derived, at some distance, from a type of Christianity. I may be simplifying a little :)

I would really like to read "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", simply because it is referenced so often in the history books and would be well written. Cheap from amazon too.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by baseball55 on October 16, 2013, at 18:45:36

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 16, 2013, at 18:17:03

> I have read that the efficient markets hypothesis is a species of utopianism derived, at some distance, from a type of Christianity. I may be simplifying a little :)

It is a kind of utopianism -- free markets always work. I don't know about the relation to christianity.
>
> I would really like to read "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", simply because it is referenced so often in the history books and would be well written. Cheap from amazon too.


It's a short book. Argued that the Versailles Treaty would ruin Germany. Very prescient.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 17, 2013, at 1:37:51

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 16, 2013, at 18:45:36

> > I have read that the efficient markets hypothesis is a species of utopianism derived, at some distance, from a type of Christianity. I may be simplifying a little :)
>
> It is a kind of utopianism -- free markets always work. I don't know about the relation to christianity.

It seems to me that in Christianity, God has a monopoly. How does a monopoly affect a market?

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 17, 2013, at 1:43:30

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 16, 2013, at 18:45:36

There is the assumption of linear time, but that includes Zoroastrians and Muslims as well.....or maybe it is monotheism? Or the idea of Heaven?

I was thinking of this bloke, though there is not much about his form of government (so to speak) here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Leiden

So much hope.

Ya well, I read about him in Klemperer's diaries. One day she says of Hitler 'It's John of Leidon'.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :( Dr. Bob

Posted by sigismund on October 17, 2013, at 1:49:47

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 17, 2013, at 1:37:51

The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?

Before we get on to the others, including the animists, sadly depleted these days.

The way I deal with the idea of dying is this: There is this idea that time is something we pass through (while prowling about on matter).
And another idea is that time is a property of matter (time space whatnot) and the whole caboodle.
In which case I have nothing useful to say or think, and therefore stop.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :( Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on October 17, 2013, at 1:49:47

> > It seems to me that in Christianity, God has a monopoly. How does a monopoly affect a market?
>
> The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?

Good question. It seems to me that God has a monopoly in each "market". Whether or not they're the same.

Bob

 

Re: gov't reopening no rose garden

Posted by jane d on October 19, 2013, at 23:36:29

In reply to gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by no rose garden on October 3, 2013, at 18:31:10

> anybody else affected? I think they're going to start trying to keep us out of work :(

Is life back to normal for you yet?

 

Keep us out of work? (nm)

Posted by Phil on October 19, 2013, at 23:36:29

In reply to Re: gov't reopening no rose garden, posted by jane d on October 18, 2013, at 19:45:49

 

Above was a purely 'social' question (nm) Dr. Bob

Posted by jane d on October 20, 2013, at 3:07:22

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 20, 2013, at 17:00:32

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

There are many cultures for which this has not been true, if I understand you correctly.......Hindus in particular.

I have a book, "Ka". I might read it.

If you asked a Hindu whether the stories surrounding this or that deity were the literal truth, I *imagine* he would think the question unsophisticated. But I don't know.

The monotheisms, OTOH, Pauline theology and fundamentalist Islam in particular...well yes, you are right about them.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2013, at 22:50:16

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 20, 2013, at 17:00:32

> > > The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?
> >
> > Good question. It seems to me that God has a monopoly in each "market". Whether or not they're the same.
>
> There are many cultures for which this has not been true, if I understand you correctly.......Hindus in particular.
>
> The monotheisms, OTOH, Pauline theology and fundamentalist Islam in particular...well yes, you are right about them.

That's what I meant, I should've said "in each of those 'markets'". Mono-theism = mono-poly.

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Partlycloudy on October 23, 2013, at 21:49:33

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

> > > It seems to me that in Christianity, God has a monopoly. How does a monopoly affect a market?
> >
> > The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?
>
> Good question. It seems to me that God has a monopoly in each "market". Whether or not they're the same.
>
> Bob

Sorry, but I fail to see what this has to do with politics. Did I stray into the Faith Board?

Dr Bob, moving any thread of length and activity to another board, effectively kills it. Just so you notice the trend that has been being going on for about 8 years or so.

Directing = death of thread.
Aren't you clever.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2013, at 1:50:21

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Partlycloudy on October 23, 2013, at 21:49:33

I don't know... Some of the threads he redirects to admin take off...

Macroeconomics it is!

I need to pick something for 'general ed' and it would be a bit cheeky to pick philosophy or psychology...

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 14:45:14

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Partlycloudy on October 23, 2013, at 21:49:33

Some people talk about all sorts of things and simply can't separate them into politics/religion/social and so on.

Didn't we stray into politics further back the thread? Really I can't remember. It started on Social, then there was economics and baseball's lucid explanation of the fiscal multiplier. I would argue (just to be difficult) that it should be on Faith because the rational markets hypothesis is utopianism derived from the Christian variety.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 21:48:07

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 14:45:14

> Dr Bob, moving any thread of length and activity to another board, effectively kills it.
>
> Partlycloudy

> I don't know... Some of the threads he redirects to admin take off...
>
> alexandra_k

1. One way to see it is that moving it kills it. Another would be that there isn't enough interest in the topic to keep it alive. If there's interest in the topic (the new board is active, as in the case of Admin), then it won't die.

2. This thread isn't dead yet.

--

> Sorry, but I fail to see what this has to do with politics. Did I stray into the Faith Board?
>
> Partlycloudy

> I would argue (just to be difficult) that it should be on Faith because the rational markets hypothesis is utopianism derived from the Christian variety.
>
> sigismund

Or it can stay here because Democrats and Republicans have difficulty resolving conflicts for the same reason that Jews and Muslims have difficulty resolving conflicts?

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:51:35

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 21:48:07

Wendell Wilkie showed a different way, and Jews and Muslims lived very well together in Spain (whatever they called it back then) for maybe even hundreds of years.

Why is this the age of fundamentalism? It is unexpected.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:53:09

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:51:35

Al Andalus.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Partlycloudy on October 25, 2013, at 9:07:26

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 21:48:07

It might be said that the killing of this thread happened when the shutdown ended.
I no longer frequent this board very often as I don't feel I have much of worth to contribute. I am quick disillusioned by the political process by now. Too many electoral cycles have sapped my emotional attention unnecessarily. I now believe it's virtually all the same.

A split in the opposition party would create some interesting chaos. I would not imagine a coalition would result, with knives sticking out of too many backs to be effective.

We shall see.

But this subject has all but sunk back into the mud where it came from. That's what pols do, isn't it? Sling mud at each other and see what sticks?

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2013, at 16:35:48

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Partlycloudy on October 25, 2013, at 9:07:26

I think what the media shows us of politics is a bit like a three ringed circus precisely because it is yet another form of entertainment. It needs to cater for the average person, or something like that. Something to persuade people (for the most part) to keep the status quo (keep order). Occasionally other messages. To spend. Whatever. Most people read magazines. Think of women's magazines with all the gossip etc. There is a reason why politics seems similar so very much of the time.

I feel... Fairly disillusioned about humanity. I have started to develop an interest in institutional policy, though. Seeing how much it really does have the power to affect significant numbers of people. How good policy can assist you / come down on your side for reasonable and legitimate concerns.

E.g., because one can cite maintenance of World Health Organization standards of habitable living environment (temperature, humidity) as 'fair use' of power etc when such costs are supposed to be included in rent (not my fault / problem the house isn't appropriately insulated). This can make a HUGE DIFFERENCE for many people's lives. I learned that 1/3 of people in NZ live sub- world health organization standards. Typically over-crowding is the issue. They do acknowledge (though they don't quite put it like this) that even if they were given bigger houses they would still all choose to huddle together with their litter mates in just the one room, however.

One third. Holy crap. This is why my continually saying 'my living environment is making me sick' to Work and Income was being ignored. Less than one third of people are on welfare. I guess that means that most people on welfare are living in such conditions.

Turns out mostly students are, too. Not the ones in student accommodation (that is where the rich people put their kids, you see). But the ones outside student accommodation.

They used to have the policy of selecting the best from school for student accommodation but pressure... Now they are supposed to select those who are disadvantaged. My eventually getting a place wasn't so much about my grades or motivation... As it was about my poverty. And then they wonder why they have such problems in the halls with drunkenness and 'parties' (litter mates congregating together and yelling all the time).

I suspect people do see this problem... But it is hard to know what to do about it.

There is this other institution across the bridge where they could be right at home...

Yesterday I knocked on the girls room across the hallway to ask her to turn her music down since it had awoken me at 8.30am and another of the girls went off at me about how I should f*ck off - that they are quiet 80% of the time and I need to stop moaning about that other 20%.

So the idea is that the people I'm living with have organized themselves into the position that it is fair use for them to be noisy 20% of the time.

I am currently in the process of pointing out that students do better when they have quiet space to study / sleep / work and to keep the end hallway as silent space is a lot less than 20% of the space of the whole property. People can be noisy 100% of the time up the other end of the house, in the other 2 houses, and in the rest of the world more generally. If you give us the opportunity for silent study space then it is of course a separate issue whether individuals choose to utilize it - but at least you can say you gave them that opportunity. They don't seem to appreciate that their blasting music at 8.30am would be like me blasting music at 3.30am. I have the consideration to wear headphones. They think that they keep 'normal people' hours. I pointed out that it would be nice to have the freedom to work, sleep, and study as one sees fit without having ones schedule dictated to by others. (I didn't say this but it goes without saying ESPECIALLY others who didn't manage to finish high school / others who can't do assignments without sitting in the communal space with puppy dog eyes till someone else does the assignment for one).

Holy crap.

At least I'm getting excited about policy, I suppose. It isn't really that we are poor... It is more that we can't organize our way out of a paper bag. We can't even 1) identify what is needed for success 2) institutionalise it in policy

crabs.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Partlycloudy on October 28, 2013, at 18:02:45

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2013, at 16:35:48

Exactly my point. That kind of sensibility wouldn't have a chance in the US culture. It's entirely driven by the media, which is driven by the corporation sponsorship, which also grease the wheels in Washington...hopelessly mired. The purest of hearts and intentions would be ground into the finest pepper served at the worst cafe.

I am now convinced that, unless the money is taken away (political campaign spending) there is no hope for anything other than Hallowe'en type of financial finagling.

It really is disgusting, to this non-citizen, traveler of other countries. If it comes across that I think lowly of citizens and their view of their standing in the world power competition, it's because I am aware that more Americans don't have passports than do.

And yes, I know where the exit sign is, thanks.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2013, at 1:36:28

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:51:35

> Jews and Muslims lived very well together in Spain [Al Andalus] for maybe even hundreds of years.

I once had a chat with a scholar about that period. What struck me was that before then, Jews and Christians didn't get along. Then they were conquered by Muslims.

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on November 10, 2013, at 16:12:36

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2013, at 1:36:28

I was impressed by this.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/19895-bam-bam-bam-the-lostness-of-man

 

Re: lost

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 6, 2014, at 22:13:04

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on November 10, 2013, at 16:12:36

> I was impressed by this.
>
> http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/19895-bam-bam-bam-the-lostness-of-man

What impressed you? He writes energetically, but he kind of lost me.

Bob


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