Psycho-Babble Politics Thread 1052214

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Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 14, 2013, at 14:44:14

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 13, 2013, at 23:19:02

Well #now# I understand the fiscal multiplier.

My basic feeling is 'why is it always poor people who end up having to pay?'

They have arrested some of the Golden Dawn party in Greece. It's not a pretty picture there. The thing with the Euro is complicated because of the rates at which each different currency joined it initially.

Actually, I read if the US defaulted, the dollar would rise (at least temporarily) because of money seeking a safe haven, like with the yen after the tsunami perhaps.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :( baseball55

Posted by sigismund on October 14, 2013, at 14:44:14

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 13, 2013, at 23:19:02

You don't feel like explaining QE, both the short term effects and the long term ones?

Only if you'd like.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 14, 2013, at 17:00:06

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 14, 2013, at 14:44:13

> We've been there, done that. It was called the Great Depression.

What is now happening in Greece and Spain is said to be much worse than that was. The Euro is kind of like the gold standard was. ?

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by baseball55 on October 14, 2013, at 21:25:20

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 14, 2013, at 17:00:06

> > We've been there, done that. It was called the Great Depression.
>
> What is now happening in Greece and Spain is said to be much worse than that was. The Euro is kind of like the gold standard was. ?

I have been working on an article with a colleague comparing the euro with the gold standard. QE (quantitative easing by the Fed) simply means that the Fed buys long term assets rather than short term assets. Basically, whenever the Fed buys assets, it creates new money for the banks to hold -- hopefully the banks will then lower interest rates and lend the money out to businesses, which will invest in new equipment and hire more workers. Traditionally, the Fed has worked on the short side of the market -- buying securities that will mature in less than a year. So short term interest rates fall, but businesses looking to borrow for new plant and equipment need to borrow longer term - often for several years. So the Fed has been working on the long side of the market (buying assets that don't mature for 10 or more years) to try and force long-term interest rates down.

With QE, 30-year mortgage rates fell for a while to 3.5%. The lowest rate since the 1930s.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 15, 2013, at 14:08:22

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 14, 2013, at 21:25:20

One of my complaints about the reporting of economics is that I never learn anything by paying attention. I remember well the Reagan years, Milton Friedman and trickle down.....Ummm, anyways it is possible to argue against austerity from a monetarist position (I think that is what Ambrose Evans Pritchard says he does). So interest rates are kept low. The ecomomy keeps choofing along and bubbles are potentiated. The long term effects bother some.

Every time I waste time listening to the news I wish they would have a half hour on the economy and finance and another half hour on the weather and skip the rest,especially the sport.

There seems to be all this money sloshing around looking for a safe home where it can aggrandise itself.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by baseball55 on October 15, 2013, at 19:56:57

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 15, 2013, at 14:08:22

Economics is extremely ideological. Hotly contested. Because,really, what is more important? Who gets what. The role of government in the economy. Social responsibilty vs individual responsibility. The level of wages in the world economy. Poverty and what that means and what goverments should do to counter it. On and on. Ethical, political controversy.
This is why economics is not taught in American high schools - too controversial, like teaching religion.

Even at the college level, there are economists who don't talk to one another, who have sided with one political ideology or another.

So, for example, the debt ceiling. There are some who think the congress should not raise the debt ceiling, since this would force the government to run a balanced budget. There are others who oppose balanced budgets, since they require that governments cut spending in recessions, when tax revenues fall.

There is as much dispute in economics as there is in politics. It's the same issues, really.

can recommend a book -- old and out-of-print, but still available cheaply on amazon -- called Economics Explained. It's a bit out of date (the primary author died several year ago), but still a worthwhile read.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2013, at 1:19:28

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 15, 2013, at 19:56:57

i don't understand any of this. i think i'm going to pick economics as my elective next year.

i think there should be a basic competency standard for voting, too. one should at least be able to say something about what policies each candidate stands for or something like that. but then one should also be able to say something sensible about why one prefers those policies, as you say.

the division of wealth upsets me. how some people have millions... while others have nothing. that doesn't seem fair. but then the more i learn about some of those people who appear to have nothing... well... get me far away from them and i might have more empathy for their plight...

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 16, 2013, at 18:17:03

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 15, 2013, at 19:56:57

>can recommend a book -- old and out-of-print, but still available cheaply on amazon -- called Economics Explained.

Great! Thanks.

I have read that the efficient markets hypothesis is a species of utopianism derived, at some distance, from a type of Christianity. I may be simplifying a little :)

I would really like to read "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", simply because it is referenced so often in the history books and would be well written. Cheap from amazon too.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by baseball55 on October 16, 2013, at 18:45:36

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 16, 2013, at 18:17:03

> I have read that the efficient markets hypothesis is a species of utopianism derived, at some distance, from a type of Christianity. I may be simplifying a little :)

It is a kind of utopianism -- free markets always work. I don't know about the relation to christianity.
>
> I would really like to read "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", simply because it is referenced so often in the history books and would be well written. Cheap from amazon too.


It's a short book. Argued that the Versailles Treaty would ruin Germany. Very prescient.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 17, 2013, at 1:37:51

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 16, 2013, at 18:45:36

> > I have read that the efficient markets hypothesis is a species of utopianism derived, at some distance, from a type of Christianity. I may be simplifying a little :)
>
> It is a kind of utopianism -- free markets always work. I don't know about the relation to christianity.

It seems to me that in Christianity, God has a monopoly. How does a monopoly affect a market?

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 17, 2013, at 1:43:30

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by baseball55 on October 16, 2013, at 18:45:36

There is the assumption of linear time, but that includes Zoroastrians and Muslims as well.....or maybe it is monotheism? Or the idea of Heaven?

I was thinking of this bloke, though there is not much about his form of government (so to speak) here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Leiden

So much hope.

Ya well, I read about him in Klemperer's diaries. One day she says of Hitler 'It's John of Leidon'.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :( Dr. Bob

Posted by sigismund on October 17, 2013, at 1:49:47

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 17, 2013, at 1:37:51

The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?

Before we get on to the others, including the animists, sadly depleted these days.

The way I deal with the idea of dying is this: There is this idea that time is something we pass through (while prowling about on matter).
And another idea is that time is a property of matter (time space whatnot) and the whole caboodle.
In which case I have nothing useful to say or think, and therefore stop.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :( Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on October 17, 2013, at 1:49:47

> > It seems to me that in Christianity, God has a monopoly. How does a monopoly affect a market?
>
> The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?

Good question. It seems to me that God has a monopoly in each "market". Whether or not they're the same.

Bob

 

Re: gov't reopening no rose garden

Posted by jane d on October 19, 2013, at 23:36:29

In reply to gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by no rose garden on October 3, 2013, at 18:31:10

> anybody else affected? I think they're going to start trying to keep us out of work :(

Is life back to normal for you yet?

 

Keep us out of work? (nm)

Posted by Phil on October 19, 2013, at 23:36:29

In reply to Re: gov't reopening no rose garden, posted by jane d on October 18, 2013, at 19:45:49

 

Above was a purely 'social' question (nm) Dr. Bob

Posted by jane d on October 20, 2013, at 3:07:22

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 20, 2013, at 17:00:32

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

There are many cultures for which this has not been true, if I understand you correctly.......Hindus in particular.

I have a book, "Ka". I might read it.

If you asked a Hindu whether the stories surrounding this or that deity were the literal truth, I *imagine* he would think the question unsophisticated. But I don't know.

The monotheisms, OTOH, Pauline theology and fundamentalist Islam in particular...well yes, you are right about them.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2013, at 22:50:16

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 20, 2013, at 17:00:32

> > > The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?
> >
> > Good question. It seems to me that God has a monopoly in each "market". Whether or not they're the same.
>
> There are many cultures for which this has not been true, if I understand you correctly.......Hindus in particular.
>
> The monotheisms, OTOH, Pauline theology and fundamentalist Islam in particular...well yes, you are right about them.

That's what I meant, I should've said "in each of those 'markets'". Mono-theism = mono-poly.

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Partlycloudy on October 23, 2013, at 21:49:33

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2013, at 23:07:38

> > > It seems to me that in Christianity, God has a monopoly. How does a monopoly affect a market?
> >
> > The God of the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims is the same God?
>
> Good question. It seems to me that God has a monopoly in each "market". Whether or not they're the same.
>
> Bob

Sorry, but I fail to see what this has to do with politics. Did I stray into the Faith Board?

Dr Bob, moving any thread of length and activity to another board, effectively kills it. Just so you notice the trend that has been being going on for about 8 years or so.

Directing = death of thread.
Aren't you clever.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2013, at 1:50:21

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Partlycloudy on October 23, 2013, at 21:49:33

I don't know... Some of the threads he redirects to admin take off...

Macroeconomics it is!

I need to pick something for 'general ed' and it would be a bit cheeky to pick philosophy or psychology...

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 14:45:14

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Partlycloudy on October 23, 2013, at 21:49:33

Some people talk about all sorts of things and simply can't separate them into politics/religion/social and so on.

Didn't we stray into politics further back the thread? Really I can't remember. It started on Social, then there was economics and baseball's lucid explanation of the fiscal multiplier. I would argue (just to be difficult) that it should be on Faith because the rational markets hypothesis is utopianism derived from the Christian variety.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 21:48:07

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 14:45:14

> Dr Bob, moving any thread of length and activity to another board, effectively kills it.
>
> Partlycloudy

> I don't know... Some of the threads he redirects to admin take off...
>
> alexandra_k

1. One way to see it is that moving it kills it. Another would be that there isn't enough interest in the topic to keep it alive. If there's interest in the topic (the new board is active, as in the case of Admin), then it won't die.

2. This thread isn't dead yet.

--

> Sorry, but I fail to see what this has to do with politics. Did I stray into the Faith Board?
>
> Partlycloudy

> I would argue (just to be difficult) that it should be on Faith because the rational markets hypothesis is utopianism derived from the Christian variety.
>
> sigismund

Or it can stay here because Democrats and Republicans have difficulty resolving conflicts for the same reason that Jews and Muslims have difficulty resolving conflicts?

Bob

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:51:35

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 21:48:07

Wendell Wilkie showed a different way, and Jews and Muslims lived very well together in Spain (whatever they called it back then) for maybe even hundreds of years.

Why is this the age of fundamentalism? It is unexpected.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:53:09

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by sigismund on October 24, 2013, at 21:51:35

Al Andalus.

 

Re: gov't shutdown.... :(

Posted by Partlycloudy on October 25, 2013, at 9:07:26

In reply to Re: gov't shutdown.... :(, posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 21:48:07

It might be said that the killing of this thread happened when the shutdown ended.
I no longer frequent this board very often as I don't feel I have much of worth to contribute. I am quick disillusioned by the political process by now. Too many electoral cycles have sapped my emotional attention unnecessarily. I now believe it's virtually all the same.

A split in the opposition party would create some interesting chaos. I would not imagine a coalition would result, with knives sticking out of too many backs to be effective.

We shall see.

But this subject has all but sunk back into the mud where it came from. That's what pols do, isn't it? Sling mud at each other and see what sticks?


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