Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 1058231

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

the Book of Job

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

Hi, everyone,

I recently read an interesting piece on the Book of Job:

Misery
by Joan Acocella
December 16, 2013
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2013/12/16/131216crbo_books_acocella

> It is certainly not the first instance in which God inflicts appalling misery on his people. In Genesis, he killed everyone on Earth except those on Noahs ark. But Job is highly individualizeda person like us. He is probably the character in the Old Testament we sympathize with most closely. ... Therefore, his struggle to go on believing in God is something that theologians and moralists have had to think about.

How do you all reconcile the existence of evil with a benevolent and omnipotent God?

Bob

 

Re: the Book of Job

Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2014, at 22:40:46

In reply to the Book of Job, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

And the reason for it all?

This....

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? . . . When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

but you have to admire the writer for ruthlessness; it's not a flattering portrait. Just what the point is I'm not sure.

 

Re: the Book of Job

Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2014, at 22:52:09

In reply to the Book of Job, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

The article is 5 pages, not one.

I hadn't even thought of this....

>As Larrimore summarizes Rubensteins position, the death of Jobs children


should put us in mind of the frequency of divine infanticide in the Bible. The track record of the God of the Jews is, in fact, too awful to contemplate.

 

Re: the Book of Job

Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2014, at 22:56:06

In reply to the Book of Job, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

That was very good.

I feel compelled to judge ethically is all.

 

Re: the Book of Job

Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 15, 2014, at 18:22:18

In reply to the Book of Job, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

the book of job was a test for job, to see if he would stay with God, and not curse, or run to other Gods, or demonic gods, or all the gods of the ancient times.

jon was a blessed man, he had alot of things, lots, and Satan saw this....i've read through it many times, and he decided to tell God, to test his faith, or his will if he would still stay with God, satan ripped him of everything, and made him sick. But in the end, job stayed with God, and didknt curse him, neither go to other ancient Gods....such as the roman gods, mythical gods from long ago, which in the bible are demons in heavanly places.... i'm not sure how to explain,

but the reason God wiped out sodom and gamoar[misspelled] is that they had become so evil, and did evil things, sexual immorality, everything that was rebellion against God, and thats why he destroyed them. Not to say that God back then was evil, in biblical terms, he was called the God of Israel, before Jesus Christ came, he was the "father" not the "son" such as christ, and through christ we are forgiven of our evil ways when we ask him for forgiveness. Back then, before christ, God punished them for their wicked ways, they had to do sacrafices to him. Now , i understand that appears that he is a terror God that terrorizes people who do bad things, but see that was back before christ, and the 10 commandments where introduced to make a law against sin.

The good thing today, is Christ...through him we can be spotless in frount of God, espcially on the day of Judgement after we all die, and our souls go before him, in the book of revelation its states this is belive. It's through christ that we will be saved from the lack of fire, or hell....some of my sources have to be backed up, im not a documented scholar on this. But that's just my 2 cents....

the reason god punished people long time ago is because they rebelled against him, and did evil things....and i guess in way that does say that God is evil for killing people. And their is alot of controversy, before the 10 laws of moses time....that people didnt know they where doing wrong or sinning....

the new testement will override this, because christ will save us on the day of judgement and from hell if we confess our sins to him and be washed clean.

thats my 2 cents lol but hope in some way it bring insight

r

 

Lou's request-phozdrhey rjlockhart37

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2014, at 5:27:17

In reply to Re: the Book of Job, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 15, 2014, at 18:22:18

> the book of job was a test for job, to see if he would stay with God, and not curse, or run to other Gods, or demonic gods, or all the gods of the ancient times.
>
> jon was a blessed man, he had alot of things, lots, and Satan saw this....i've read through it many times, and he decided to tell God, to test his faith, or his will if he would still stay with God, satan ripped him of everything, and made him sick. But in the end, job stayed with God, and didknt curse him, neither go to other ancient Gods....such as the roman gods, mythical gods from long ago, which in the bible are demons in heavanly places.... i'm not sure how to explain,
>
> but the reason God wiped out sodom and gamoar[misspelled] is that they had become so evil, and did evil things, sexual immorality, everything that was rebellion against God, and thats why he destroyed them. Not to say that God back then was evil, in biblical terms, he was called the God of Israel, before Jesus Christ came, he was the "father" not the "son" such as christ, and through christ we are forgiven of our evil ways when we ask him for forgiveness. Back then, before christ, God punished them for their wicked ways, they had to do sacrafices to him. Now , i understand that appears that he is a terror God that terrorizes people who do bad things, but see that was back before christ, and the 10 commandments where introduced to make a law against sin.
>
> The good thing today, is Christ...through him we can be spotless in frount of God, espcially on the day of Judgement after we all die, and our souls go before him, in the book of revelation its states this is belive. It's through christ that we will be saved from the lack of fire, or hell....some of my sources have to be backed up, im not a documented scholar on this. But that's just my 2 cents....
>
> the reason god punished people long time ago is because they rebelled against him, and did evil things....and i guess in way that does say that God is evil for killing people. And their is alot of controversy, before the 10 laws of moses time....that people didnt know they where doing wrong or sinning....
>
> the new testement will override this, because christ will save us on the day of judgement and from hell if we confess our sins to him and be washed clean.
>
> thats my 2 cents lol but hope in some way it bring insight
>
> r

r,
You wrote,[...(C)hrist will save us on the day of judgment and from hell if we confess our sins to him...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting readers to think when they read what you have posted here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
True or False:
A. Christ will not save us if we do not confess our sins to him.
B. Those that confess their sins to God, (but not to Chrsit) will not have their sins forgiven and be cast into hell.
C. Jews and others that do not accept the claim by you here, that if they confess their sins to Christ they will be saved from being cast into hell, will be cast into hell.
D. The confessing of sins to Christ in order to be saved from hell, has to be done before one dies
E. Others can do the confessing of sins to Christ for a person that died before they did the confessing.
F. Convicted war criminals that murdered Jewish children could be saved from hell by confessing their sins to Christ right before they were hanged.
G. The Jewish children that were murdered by the convicted war criminals and had atrocities committed against them, are now in hell because they did not confess their sins to Christ before they were tortured and murdered.
H. Jews that died and that loved God with all their hearts and minds and their neighbors as themselves, but did not confess their sins to Christ are in hell now.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-phozdrhey Lou Pilder

Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 17, 2014, at 13:21:28

In reply to Lou's request-phozdrhey rjlockhart37, posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2014, at 5:27:17

A. Christ will not save us if we do not confess our sins to him.
- we surrender our lives to christ, and follow him, basically accept him into the heart, and confess the evil things we do, im not trying to be a crazy person telling but, at the end when we all die, i believe concretly there is Judgement day, and that is the part where people must be washed clean so they won't be thrown in the lake of fire, with the devil and his angels. The second death...is what you call it in biblical terms.
________________________________________________

B. Those that confess their sins to God, (but not to Chrsit) will not have their sins forgiven and be cast into hell.
-that's controversal, but the new testement in the bible states that Jesus is the one who will clean us of sins, and wicked ways.
________________________________________

C. Jews and others that do not accept the claim by you here, that if they confess their sins to Christ they will be saved from being cast into hell, will be cast into hell.
-that's also controversal, i have no explaination for that, i do know about that. Jews do have a relationship with God as far as i know, but i just don't understand about those who don't believe in christ.
___________________________________

D. The confessing of sins to Christ in order to be saved from hell, has to be done before one dies
-from my belief, and that's only my own belief, not others, on Judgement day, but also to live a Godly way of life, to be cleansed of sin....having holiness of God within the self. Being cleaned of Iniquity or repeated sin.
__________________________________________

E. Others can do the confessing of sins to Christ for a person that died before they did the confessing.
-again, my own belief, but from what i've heard, after this life, it can't be done, it's only in the current life, this life where living in
______________________________________

F. Convicted war criminals that murdered Jewish children could be saved from hell by confessing their sins to Christ right before they were hanged.
- cannot speak again on this, the only way i know is being cleansed of sin, but the day of judgement, i guess what the actions where in this life, will be judged...but i don't know if that means they went to hell. Paul murdered people because their belief, yet after that he gave up his life to christ, and wrote lots of the books in the new testement. So you see, he was a murderer, and persecuted them....see that is really a hard thing to grasp

http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-on-why-paul-was-a-murderer-before-a-great-apostle-of-christ-69994/
_____________________________________

G. The Jewish children that were murdered by the convicted war criminals and had atrocities committed against them, are now in hell because they did not confess their sins to Christ before they were tortured and murdered.
- it was said somewhere, which is not a stated fact, that children go to heaven because they did not get mature in belief. I was born for the first time when i was 4 years old in frount of the whole methodist church, i said, and accepted the holy spirit in my heart. After that it happened again when i was 17 because of horrors of my teenage years of failure and rejection. I stated out loud, for God to save me. It happened twice. I still get horror thoughts that i will not be saved, but i am urgently trying to tell people to be saved, not for mumble jombo, that their souls will be saved. That's what im called to do.
__________________________________________

H. Jews that died and that loved God with all their hearts and minds and their neighbors as themselves, but did not confess their sins to Christ are in hell now.
-again, i do not know this, that is vary controversal, because i do know Jewish people have their strong relationship with God. It's vary difficult to understand.
__________

That's all lou, i've awnsered all your question you have asked and i hope they give you insight. And for anyone else who reads the post, this is my personal belief. And to widen insight, and teach the truth.

r

 

Lou's request for clairification-ehevehy rjlockhart37

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2014, at 16:01:18

In reply to Re: Lou's request-phozdrhey Lou Pilder, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 17, 2014, at 13:21:28

> A. Christ will not save us if we do not confess our sins to him.
> - we surrender our lives to christ, and follow him, basically accept him into the heart, and confess the evil things we do, im not trying to be a crazy person telling but, at the end when we all die, i believe concretly there is Judgement day, and that is the part where people must be washed clean so they won't be thrown in the lake of fire, with the devil and his angels. The second death...is what you call it in biblical terms.
> ________________________________________________
>
> B. Those that confess their sins to God, (but not to Chrsit) will not have their sins forgiven and be cast into hell.
> -that's controversal, but the new testement in the bible states that Jesus is the one who will clean us of sins, and wicked ways.
> ________________________________________
>
> C. Jews and others that do not accept the claim by you here, that if they confess their sins to Christ they will be saved from being cast into hell, will be cast into hell.
> -that's also controversal, i have no explaination for that, i do know about that. Jews do have a relationship with God as far as i know, but i just don't understand about those who don't believe in christ.
> ___________________________________
>
> D. The confessing of sins to Christ in order to be saved from hell, has to be done before one dies
> -from my belief, and that's only my own belief, not others, on Judgement day, but also to live a Godly way of life, to be cleansed of sin....having holiness of God within the self. Being cleaned of Iniquity or repeated sin.
> __________________________________________
>
> E. Others can do the confessing of sins to Christ for a person that died before they did the confessing.
> -again, my own belief, but from what i've heard, after this life, it can't be done, it's only in the current life, this life where living in
> ______________________________________
>
> F. Convicted war criminals that murdered Jewish children could be saved from hell by confessing their sins to Christ right before they were hanged.
> - cannot speak again on this, the only way i know is being cleansed of sin, but the day of judgement, i guess what the actions where in this life, will be judged...but i don't know if that means they went to hell. Paul murdered people because their belief, yet after that he gave up his life to christ, and wrote lots of the books in the new testement. So you see, he was a murderer, and persecuted them....see that is really a hard thing to grasp
>
> http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-on-why-paul-was-a-murderer-before-a-great-apostle-of-christ-69994/
> _____________________________________
>
> G. The Jewish children that were murdered by the convicted war criminals and had atrocities committed against them, are now in hell because they did not confess their sins to Christ before they were tortured and murdered.
> - it was said somewhere, which is not a stated fact, that children go to heaven because they did not get mature in belief. I was born for the first time when i was 4 years old in frount of the whole methodist church, i said, and accepted the holy spirit in my heart. After that it happened again when i was 17 because of horrors of my teenage years of failure and rejection. I stated out loud, for God to save me. It happened twice. I still get horror thoughts that i will not be saved, but i am urgently trying to tell people to be saved, not for mumble jombo, that their souls will be saved. That's what im called to do.
> __________________________________________
>
> H. Jews that died and that loved God with all their hearts and minds and their neighbors as themselves, but did not confess their sins to Christ are in hell now.
> -again, i do not know this, that is vary controversal, because i do know Jewish people have their strong relationship with God. It's vary difficult to understand.
> __________
>
> That's all lou, i've awnsered all your question you have asked and i hope they give you insight. And for anyone else who reads the post, this is my personal belief. And to widen insight, and teach the truth.
>
> r
>
r,
In your reply to my first question, I have a want for information in order to understand what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. In that you say that in the judgment day, people will have to be washed clean so that they will not be thrown into the lake of fire, does that answer my question which was:
[...Christ will not save us if we do not confess our sins to him...]?
If it does answer my question as to what you are wanting to mean, do those that do not confess their sins to Christ, have their fate to be thrown into the lake of fire? If so, what in your reply to me could convey that meaning?
If your reply to me does not answer my question, could you post here why you have not posted an answer to my request to you for what you are wanting to mean?
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-phozdrhey

Posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 22:46:38

In reply to Lou's request-phozdrhey rjlockhart37, posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2014, at 5:27:17

>(C)hrist will save us on the day of judgment and from hell if we confess our sins to him...].

If I had the power I would do MUCH better than that.

 

Samuel Beckett

Posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 22:57:36

In reply to Re: Lou's request-phozdrhey, posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 22:46:38

Let me go to hell, that's all I ask, and go on cursing them there, and them look down and hear me, that might take some of the shine off their bliss.

 

Blessed are you

Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 18, 2014, at 7:40:29

In reply to Samuel Beckett, posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 22:57:36

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Jesus

 

Why are you so bitter and full of contempt? (nm) sigismund

Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 18, 2014, at 7:43:06

In reply to Samuel Beckett, posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 22:57:36

 

re: a video that proves the existance of christ HomelyCygnet

Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 18, 2014, at 12:29:09

In reply to Blessed are you, posted by HomelyCygnet on January 18, 2014, at 7:40:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQgz7cjydCg

watch the whole thing, it was supernatural healing of Jesus Christ, thats what im trying to tell people, this is real, christ does exist, it's just difficult for the human mind to see because it is not seen. This was not any fake, it was recorded in africa

minister to souls to get them saved, there's no false belief, because beliving that christ exists will give a realization of God, and we will be saved through christ from sin, and save people's lives after this life is over....

r

 

Thanks RJ but I don't need proof I already know (nm) rjlockhart37

Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 18, 2014, at 15:42:34

In reply to re: a video that proves the existance of christ HomelyCygnet, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 18, 2014, at 12:29:09

 

Re: the Book of Job

Posted by alexandra_k on July 12, 2014, at 5:10:19

In reply to the Book of Job, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

...nearer the start... i thought that was interesting... it got me thinking of plato's 'ring of gyges'. the idea is that there is a ring that makes the wearer invisible. you are then told that you can basically get away with anything because of the invisible ring.

what (if any) reason is there to be moral - when you can get away with it?

one answer people like to say is that the reason to be moral is god. god will know. i guess that is why people think you need to believe in got in order to have a reason to be moral.

but then... if god knows... whether you did good... whether you did evil... and he didn't reward / punish accordingly then... what reason would there be then?

i never thought of job in quite that light before...

my response to the problem of evil...

is that something has got to give. the idea of 'omnigod' (all knowing, all powerful, all loving / benevolent) is contradictory... a trilemma, if you will. something has got to give.

god can't have unlimited power, anyway because 'can god make a rock to big that god can't move it?'

it isn't LIMITING gods power to say that there are things he can't do... he could be the greatest possible being... but impossible isn't possible. we never expected him to be the greatest impossible being. did we? why would we expect that? that doesn't make much sense...

anyway... so, uh, i would think that accepting limitation on power...

but how does that help with job??

?

not entirely sure.

perfect benevolence is a weird notion...

job... one could appeal to something along the lines of character development, i guess. how suffering trials and tribuiations makes us stronger. makes... others stronger, perhaps. it is much easier to be good and kind when you are wealthy than it is when you are poor. i think. hungry and irritable etc. cold.

but if one goes beyond job... to the countless infants born with AIDS... who die of malnutrition or dehydration because they don't have milk... whose brief existance is filled with nothing but pain... or the animals stuffed in battery cages... the rats who can't rear the chickens who can't scratch...

just a little bit less suffering... and surely all the same lessons could be learned.

?

i... don't believe in god. i... don't feel that i need to. to be moral or whatever. i... don't see it helps anything to believe.

 

Re: the Book of Job

Posted by alexandra_k on July 12, 2014, at 5:16:13

In reply to the Book of Job, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:07:19

one things that's cool about the problem of evil is that it is a problem for the (traditional conception of) 'omnigod' that is common to judaism, christianity, and islam.

and...

plato grappeled with some of the same issues (perhaps) with the ring of gyges... and 'is something pious (right, correct) because it is loved by the gods (because the gods say so) - or, is the only reason they say so becuase it really is pious.

e.g., could god proclaim evil (e.g., torturing an innocent child solely for fun) to be pious... or would any god that proclaimed that evil act to be good *simply be wrong*?

if god can't do that (a limitation on god's power?)

then...

morality is prior to / more fundamental than / grounded in something different than religion.

in which case... what god says seems... well... what people say god says...

seems a bit like trying to have a conversation with community mental health about what the doctor thought about x.

 

Re: the Book of Job alexandra_k

Posted by Toph on October 4, 2014, at 11:36:33

In reply to Re: the Book of Job, posted by alexandra_k on July 12, 2014, at 5:10:19

There are countless crimes, cruelties and injustices against humanity committed in the name of religion, but personally, my childhood Christian indoctrination manifests itself in recessive fear, guilt and anxiety from my lack of faith. I thought that compelling evidence contradicting a benevolent God, reason, and irrefutable science would extinguish these nagging doubts, but the grim threat of eternal damnation is a cruel bogeyman indeed. I evy those who have been spared these deceits.


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