Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 985024

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Re: CE, question....

Posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 21:03:18

In reply to Re: CE, question.... Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 9, 2011, at 14:37:01

I doubt there's a quiz before they let you in the door for mass, but the Church's official teaching is that Christ is the way to Heaven (no man gets to the Father except by me--its in the Bible somewhere).

Personally, it took me a while to become convinced of Christ's claim to exclusivity. I mean, there are so many paths to salvation and enlightenment, how do we know? I came to the conclusion that if I became a Christian, I'd have to take Christ at His word. When He said He was the only way to the Father, I was obligated to believe it. When He said that He was God made flesh, I had to accept that.

Like I said, though, I think the Catholic Church's official teachings allow for more flexibility on salvation than your typical Protestant. Someone might not accept Christ because they've never been taught the Gospel, they might be afflicted with some sort of psychological issue that prevents them from seeing the truth, they may have been heavily indoctrinated into another faith, so on and so forth. I'm no expert on Catholic beliefs, but I think they tend to be a little more humane when it comes to the fate of the unbeliever than, say, the Pentecostals.

 

Re: CE, question.... Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 16:03:22

In reply to Re: CE, question...., posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 21:03:18

CE, I looked at that booked and deemed it too intellectual for me :(

But I did order a book called Compassion and Meditation. I'll report if your interested.

Thomas Merton books galore. Surprised you haven't brushed into him yet. Seems ubiquitous. Didn't order any of his numerous volumes.

Cheers you temporary or tentative Calvanist!

fb

 

Lou's request-fohzdhhrheyhtn floatingbridge

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 10, 2011, at 17:52:23

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 7, 2011, at 0:33:56

> That sounds good.
>
> Your very welcome.
>
> You're stellar!

fb,
You wrote,[...That sounds good...].
I am unsure as to what in the post that you are linking to could sound good if that is the content in question.
If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Is it all the statements in the post that you linked to, if those are the statements in question, that sounds good?
B. If not all of the statements, then which ones sound good?
C. What does {sound[good]} imply to you?
D. Why is it good?
E redacted by respondent
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-fohzdhhrheyhtn Lou Pilder

Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 20:50:54

In reply to Lou's request-fohzdhhrheyhtn floatingbridge, posted by Lou Pilder on June 10, 2011, at 17:52:23

> You wrote,[...That sounds good...].
> I am unsure as to what in the post that you are linking to could sound good if that is the content in question.
> If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Is it all the statements in the post that you linked to, if those are the statements in question, that sounds
good?

Hi Lou,

Umm. I don't think I was referring to all,
but I can't think that intensely today.

> B. If not all of the statements, then which ones sound good?

My interpretation of what CE said, which I took to mean starting where s/he was rather than attempt a radical conversion
(for the time being). (I have nothing against radical conversions in theory.)

> C. What does {sound[good]} imply to you?

That s/he's come to a place of
acceptance regarding the situation.

> D. Why is it good?

Sounds peaceful.

> E redacted by respondent

I don't understand this last part, section E.


Hope you are doing alright, and my response somewhat clarifying. Take good care, Lou.


fb


 

Re: CE, the on-going question Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 21:51:20

In reply to Re: CE, question...., posted by Christ_empowered on June 9, 2011, at 9:49:19

CE, first, thanks for talking about these things with me. I actually exchanged email addresses with an intellectually oriented Catholic woman I met here so we could continue our religiuos discussions.

Wish me luck. Does your belief make the world less lonely for you?

fb

 

Re: CE, the on-going question

Posted by Christ_empowered on June 11, 2011, at 5:51:12

In reply to Re: CE, the on-going question Christ_empowered, posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2011, at 21:51:20

absolutely, my beliefs make my life less lonely.

On the other hand, my beliefs seem to have intensified my emotions. I think about the Big Issues now--life,death, meaning, values, God, etc.--that really didn't bother me when I was younger. Since I've replaced a lot of the secular values I was taught in therapy at an early age with more traditionally Christian ones, I feel things--shame, guilt, pain, anger--that before I could think away with rationalizations and psycho-babble fluff.

 

Re: CE, the on-going question Christ_empowered

Posted by floatingbridge on June 11, 2011, at 12:30:19

In reply to Re: CE, the on-going question, posted by Christ_empowered on June 11, 2011, at 5:51:12

Interesting trade off CE.

Being raised as I was, or that and my nature, I can't remember not thinking about those mysteries. I'd like a container to help hold them. And to help give my boy to do with as he pleased, meaning if I went back to practicing some Catholic hybrid, he'd be free to exercise his intelligent choice.

We, my son and I spoke a number of time about The
Church's role in world history. My kid is into history, esp empire building stuff. The rise and fall of civilizations like pages in a book. He hasn't learned to count the bodies yet, except for here in the states and the American Indians. And then, we simply glossed it. In California there are a lot of old missionaries. And he's a smart guy, so I let him put some stuff together w/o adding the details :-/

Good lord he doesn't know a thing about the Inquisition (!). More about how the church dictated scientific thought, you know, and the sun orbiting the earth. Stuff like that.

Thanks CE

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by hyperfocus on June 11, 2011, at 19:26:16

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

Today it seems that 99% of Christianity is theology, dogma, politics, culture. 1% is actually Jesus Christ. I'm not saying those 4 things aren't important but it's the 1% that's the most important.

Christ would not have been a sportsman that's for sure. Christ was a loner and a radical. He was anti-authority from day one. All of the establishment hated his guts. He didn't have any money. He liked women (a lot) and children and animals. He hated hypocrisy. He hated the rich. He loved knowledge and was very very smart and learned. He was, using the modern connotation of the word, a liberal.

I think one thing you have to do - which is an advantage our age has over say 100 years ago - is to actually read the Bible and read what Christ actually said, and read the Apocrypha or what people outside the Catholic tradition wrote about him. Christianity was a pretty diverse thing in the early years after Christ, with many diverse schools of thoughts trying to understand what Christ said and did. The Roman Catholics exterminated the Coptics and Gnostics and anyone who didn't hold to the Pauline theology and purged their writings from the record. That's just how the Romans did things back then. But thanks to technology anyone today who wants to be a Christian has access to a huge and diverse amount of knowledge they can use to figure the whole thing out. There's a huge library in Rome filled with books on how to be a Catholic, and every day a bunch of people on the TV talk about culture wars and what side you should be on, but if you read the Bible you'll find that there's only a few specific things Jesus said you should and shouldn't do.

I'm conservative in my views because they reflect what I believe Christ's message was. However I don't actually believe that somebody has to be 'saved' or 'baptised' to be a Christian. To me Christ's message was that anybody who followed his 'way' was a Christian. Whether you're a Jew or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever. It's not an exclusive club you have to join. I also don't believe in Heaven or Hell per se. I think the Kingdom of Heaven is within us. I think practicing acts of kindness and forgiveness towards one another helps us move a step closer to it. Most people don't do this though. The way the world is today I doubt Hell could be much worse.

 

Lou's request-phozdhrihndk hyperfocus

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 17:41:49

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by hyperfocus on June 11, 2011, at 19:26:16

hf,
You wrote,[....xxx of the establishment yyyyy his (Christ's) guts...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting readers to think by that statement. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.What groups of people, if that is what you are referring to, make up the establishment?
B. redacted by respondent
C. redacted by respondent
D. redacted by respondent
Lou

 

Lou's request-continued

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 18:15:02

In reply to Lou's request-phozdhrihndk hyperfocus, posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 17:41:49

> hf,
> You wrote,[....xxx of the establishment yyyyy his (Christ's) guts...].
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting readers to think by that statement. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A.What groups of people, if that is what you are referring to, make up the establishment?
> B. redacted by respondent
> C. redacted by respondent
> D. redacted by respondent
> Lou
>
hf,
In reading the statement in question over and over, I am trying to understand why (redacted by respondent). Now I do not know what you are wanting to mean by the statement as to the potential of purporting what is what is as can be seen. If it is what it is, then is it is not what it's not?
My concern here is what other people could think that the statement means, which could be different from what you are wanting people to believe when they read the statement.
You see, this Jesus in question came from a Jewish family. I don't know what you want to mean by {hated}, but many of his followers were Jews.
There were also followers that were Romans and Greeks, and even one of the leaders of the Roman establishment said that he found no fault in him.
and one of the last things that He said was, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-continued Lou Pilder

Posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 20:53:21

In reply to Lou's request-continued, posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2011, at 18:15:02

Lou by establishment I simply mean the people who have the power in society who are not accepting of change since it would necessarily mean they would have to give up some of that power. Jesus has never fit in well with those in power, either then or now.

The point I'm making is that Jesus had zero interest in power or even forming a new religion. There are many places in the New Testament where he seems to warn against exactly what Christianity has become today. You're absolutely right - most of Jesus' followers were Jews, and he had no intention of changing that. Jesus himself never gave any directive that Christians separate from Jews - when people asked him about the rules about being righteous he gave them the Ten Commandments. The schism between Judaism and Christianity developed quite a number of years after his death and had nothing to do with the events of the crucifixion. It was purely a theological and political thing that had very little to do with Christ's teachings.

I personally don't have any sort of antagonistic feelings towards Judaism or Jews. I think that the actual message of Jesus precludes any of that from any Christian. My beef is with people like Paul and the Church Fathers who did things like legitimize slavery and inequality in society.

"Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.

Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it."

- The Gospel of Mary Magdalene

 

more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus

Posted by floatingbridge on June 12, 2011, at 21:24:41

In reply to Re: Lou's request-continued Lou Pilder, posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 20:53:21

hp, do you go to a church? If so, what type?

The questions, well, here they are.

I've been listening to a recording artist, Sufjan Stevens. One song that I love says, "I'm not afraid to die, to be you, to see you. I'm not afraid to die, at last."

I don't know what happens when people die. I don't believe in a heaven that I was raised with. That would be a place. I don't even believe in an all inclusive place. I have no idea what happens when we die.

Do people like myself have to remain churchless, faithless? Can one read, as hp has done, and believe in mystery?

Is there a place for that type of inquiry and belief and absolute thirst for...?

Is there some kind of radical Christianity that will allow such ongoing inquiry?

I cannot attend a church or congregation if I am expected to believe in heaven or even one door.

But I am so thirsty.

Does anyone understand what I am talking about?

 

Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp

Posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 23:14:45

In reply to more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on June 12, 2011, at 21:24:41

> hp, do you go to a church? If so, what type?

I was raised Roman Catholic. I do try to go to church every week. I take communion. I try to go to confession when I can. But I don't do these things because they're the rules, I do them because I think they make me a better person.

> I don't know what happens when people die. I don't believe in a heaven that I was raised with. That would be a place. I don't even believe in an all inclusive place. I have no idea what happens when we die.

I don't either. But I do know that salvation is for the living. Why would Jesus heal the sick and comfort the suffering? All the people he healed and wisdom he imparted and examples he set - what point was there if the big payoff happened after we die? This skewed emphasis on afterlife, again, is something that was developed after Jesus. The early Church believed that since life sucked so bad for most people, promise of a heavenly afterlife was a good political platform to run on. In their short-sightedness they couldn't see or care that life could be beautiful for people right here, right now.

>
> Do people like myself have to remain churchless, faithless? Can one read, as hp has done, and believe in mystery?
>
> Is there a place for that type of inquiry and belief and absolute thirst for...?

Before the Roman Catholic tradition the pursuit of wisdom by every man occupied a supreme position in Christian thinking. If you read Apocrypha like Wisdom of Solomon and Sirach, you'll see that Old Testament writers considered wisdom to be the most precious gift from God. This tradition continued with the Essenes and Gnostics. Wisdom is venerated as the first companion to God and is always represented as a woman, a goddess. The whole idea that Eve tempted Adam into eating from the Tree of Life and sinning is misogynistic hogwash. What is life without wisdom? What is power without knowledge? In the beginning was the word. Some scholars believe there was a female counterpart to Yahweh called Asherah who was equally venerated by ancient Hebrew people, before she was written out of the record for whatever reason. Mary Magdalene was the closest and most loved disciple of Jesus and a leader of the early Christians before Paul and the others discredited and destroyed whatever knowledge Jesus intended for her to spread. It's a sad story, in both cases, but that's just how life is. The only church you need fb is the internet. You can start here:
http://www.gnosis.org/library.html
http://www.thenazareneway.com/

> Is there some kind of radical Christianity that will allow such ongoing inquiry?

AFAIK 'Christianity' did not exist until decades after Christ. Jesus welcomed people of all faiths and ethnicities to share in his wisdom. Back in the day people gathered together in plain rooms to discuss and exchange ideas and help each other find a way through life. The discussion we're having here is much closer to what Christianity is supposed to be about than most people realize. This may be a radical idea but that's the point. I'm not saying that community and evangelism isn't important, but Jesus wasn't a politician or a law-giver. I also get the impression that even though he was a powerful orator, he was most comfortable talking to his close companions. Real Christianity has always been a radical and solitary and occasionally intimate undertaking.

>
> I cannot attend a church or congregation if I am expected to believe in heaven or even one door.

You don't have to. The symbolic act of communion is available to anyone, anywhere. Jesus would probably LOL and OMG if somebody gave him a Catholic book of sacraments to read. The idea is to remember the sacrifice and suffering he went through - understand what following in his steps means if you choose to do it. If your heart breaks at the injustice of the world, if you want to try to be a decent person and do no harm to anyone, then be prepared for suffering when they come for you. The only obligation that Christ asks us is to keep the Ten Commandments, always treat others as you would like yourself to be treated, and to forgive your enemies.

> But I am so thirsty.
>
> Does anyone understand what I am talking about?

Yes I do. Even in the darkest depths of depression I was committedly atheist. God just didn't make sense to me for a lot of different reasons. It just seemed pointless. I didn't need a fairy tale to make me feel better or some stupid promise to comfort me about what would happen after this cruel life was done with me. But I have always liked knowledge and, contrary to my expectations, there is a great deal of wisdom and knowledge to be found in religion. Instead of a book of childish sayings and stories, I found in the Bible incredibly beautiful and profound writing on everything that I have always wondered about. I suspect a lot of people who say they don't like the Bible, just like me, have never actually tried reading it.

"In the beginning was the word."

I dare any writer, living or dead, to come up with a better opening line than that.

What I would say fb is trust in wisdom. Seek it out from wherever you can find it. Somebody once said that the best writing is that which tells us what we already know. I suspect many people find solace in spiritual writing because it speaks to something true deep within them - some deep ingrained instinct about justice and compassion and what it really means to be a human being.

It's good that you are thirsty. Most people are not. They close their eyes and rely on brute strength or deceit to get through life. They don't feel 9/10 of what you feel. If you open you heart to wisdom then you're already halfway there to the the Kingdom. But be prepared for suffering.

This is what turned me on to the Old Testament, it's from Job:

There is a mine for silver
and a place where gold is refined.
2 Iron is taken from the earth,
and copper is smelted from ore.
3 Mortals put an end to the darkness;
they search out the farthest recesses
for ore in the blackest darkness.
4 Far from human dwellings they cut a shaft,
in places untouched by human feet;
far from other people they dangle and sway.
5 The earth, from which food comes,
is transformed below as by fire;
6 lapis lazuli comes from its rocks,
and its dust contains nuggets of gold.
7 No bird of prey knows that hidden path,
no falcons eye has seen it.
8 Proud beasts do not set foot on it,
and no lion prowls there.
9 People assault the flinty rock with their hands
and lay bare the roots of the mountains.
10 They tunnel through the rock;
their eyes see all its treasures.
11 They search[a] the sources of the rivers
and bring hidden things to light.
12 But where can wisdom be found?
Where does understanding dwell?
13 No mortal comprehends its worth;
it cannot be found in the land of the living.
14 The deep says, It is not in me;
the sea says, It is not with me.
15 It cannot be bought with the finest gold,
nor can its price be weighed out in silver.
16 It cannot be bought with the gold of Ophir,
with precious onyx or lapis lazuli.
17 Neither gold nor crystal can compare with it,
nor can it be had for jewels of gold.
18 Coral and jasper are not worthy of mention;
the price of wisdom is beyond rubies.
19 The topaz of Cush cannot compare with it;
it cannot be bought with pure gold.

20 Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
21 It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing,
concealed even from the birds in the sky.
22 Destruction[b] and Death say,
Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.
23 God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells,
24 for he views the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.
25 When he established the force of the wind
and measured out the waters,
26 when he made a decree for the rain
and a path for the thunderstorm,
27 then he looked at wisdom and appraised it;
he confirmed it and tested it.
28 And he said to the human race,
The fear of the Lordthat is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+28&version=NIV

 

Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus

Posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 1:13:06

In reply to Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp, posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 23:14:45

Thank you for the beautiful post, hp.

You know I have a child. He's very gifted in ways to be revealed. He began asking about death very early. I told him about a heaven where you see everyone that's gone ahead, plus the people who you might not like or have acted out of ignorance (like the BP spill, say) are friends now because they are no longer ignorant.

It makes it easier than my musings on nothing. He looks forward to meeting my mom, for instance who died before he was born.

So I'd like to find a church for us. I suppose I'd need to find a priest I could talk to who would accept my Buddhism as non-conflicting. I actually think a real confession would be a relief for me.

This is a big step for me. Much damage was incurred by my father and his very strange, tortured Catholicism.

However, besides being a mom, I'd need a church that could accept me and a priest to talk with. I can not hide or lie by omission any more.

Do you think this is possible?

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by sigismund on June 13, 2011, at 4:43:18

In reply to Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on June 6, 2011, at 19:01:43

>Here in the South, Episcopalians are kind of like a country club

A momentary flash of anger made me want to say that these were the best Christians, but I was wrong. There are lots of reasonable Catholics.

What I want to understand is how Ayn Rand fits in with this.

Ah well, not to worry. Maybe the GFC will eventually sort that out?

 

Lou's request-heypow hyperfocus

Posted by Lou Pilder on June 13, 2011, at 5:16:16

In reply to Re: Lou's request-continued Lou Pilder, posted by hyperfocus on June 12, 2011, at 20:53:21

> Lou by establishment I simply mean the people who have the power in society who are not accepting of change since it would necessarily mean they would have to give up some of that power. Jesus has never fit in well with those in power, either then or now.
>
> The point I'm making is that Jesus had zero interest in power or even forming a new religion. There are many places in the New Testament where he seems to warn against exactly what Christianity has become today. You're absolutely right - most of Jesus' followers were Jews, and he had no intention of changing that. Jesus himself never gave any directive that Christians separate from Jews - when people asked him about the rules about being righteous he gave them the Ten Commandments. The schism between Judaism and Christianity developed quite a number of years after his death and had nothing to do with the events of the crucifixion. It was purely a theological and political thing that had very little to do with Christ's teachings.
>
> I personally don't have any sort of antagonistic feelings towards Judaism or Jews. I think that the actual message of Jesus precludes any of that from any Christian. My beef is with people like Paul and the Church Fathers who did things like legitimize slavery and inequality in society.
>
> "Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.
>
> Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it."
>
> - The Gospel of Mary Magdalene

hf,
You wrote,[...establishment..people who have the power in society who are not accepting of change...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here in relation to that others could think the statement could mean something other than what you intend. If you could post answers here to the following, then I think that others could have a better understanding of what your intentions could be and respond accoringly.
A. In,[...establishment...people that have the power in society who are not acceptimng of change...], going back then:
1. What kind of power going back then that people did not want to change would one need to have to be included in the establishment?
2. Would the Levites be included in the establishment? If so, what was the change they were not accepting to?
3. Would the Pharisees be included in the establishment? If so, what was the change they were not accepting to?
4. Would the Sanhedrin be included in the establishment? If so, what was the change they were not accepting to?
5. Would the Roman governers of Jerusalem be included in the establishment? If so, what was the change they were not accepting to?
6. Would the Roman tax collectors be included in the establishment? If so, what is the change they were not accepting to?
7. By your use of the word {all}, that word is what it is. In your statement that those of the establishment {hated}, what is the basis that you used for you writing that statement here, for I can not understand why hate has to be associated with giving up power. For instance,if in an election the Democrats are replaced by Republicans, I do not think that has to lead them to hating those that made them give up their power.
Lou

 

Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp floatingbridge

Posted by hyperfocus on June 13, 2011, at 15:59:53

In reply to Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 1:13:06

One time I was talking to a Benedictine monk and I told him how I found the religion I had been taught in school to be too inadequate and simplistic and childish. He told me that there were books to read when you're a child and books to read when you're an adult. I think faith is something that is supposed to grow and change as a person ages. I don't see any harm in your son participating in an established faith like Catholicism. If he is curious and gifted as you say I don't think there's much danger of him being too indoctrinated or developing a one-sided view of things. Stuff like Sunday School and First Communion and Confirmation were more social activities to me than anything else. The thing I found most disturbing was why none of the students or teachers ever showed me the kindness and compassion and virtue they all talked about. My mom was a Catholic for little more than the fact that she liked the rituals and symbols and stuff and she though the priests were handsome in their tunics and collars. I don't think she cared much about whether Purgatory existed or babies were born with Original Sin or whatever. If your son likes the whole notion of God and Heaven and stuff then it's cool. As he gets older and he begins to think about stuff more he's going to have questions - and the most important thing you have to do is encourage him to always ask his questions and seek out wisdom. That's what I would tell my kid I guess - nobody has all the answers and it's up to you to find them for yourself but in the mean time I'll take you to Mass when I go and try to explain what it all means.

If any priest puts orthodoxy and dogma over wisdom and understanding and compassion, then it's probably not a good church to be in. I had a priest once who made a point of saying at every Mass that only Catholics were allowed to come up for Communion. Not surprisingly I began to attend church less and less. I can't actually think of something more against what Christ's message was than what this priest said, but I don't think they all can be like this. Nowadays I don't really care what the priest thinks or says anymore - I just go to church because I believe it's a meaningful thing just to spend 1 hr contemplating
my faith with other people - something I believe we were asked to do. But I would always advise anyone that the only way to understand religion is to seek out the wisdom that resonates with the things that are buried deep inside you. Nobody can do this for you.

 

Re: Separating from Judaism Lou Pilder

Posted by hyperfocus on June 13, 2011, at 16:07:45

In reply to Lou's request-heypow hyperfocus, posted by Lou Pilder on June 13, 2011, at 5:16:16

Lou I think in any discussion there has to be balance and gave-and-take. I answered one of your questions so I'd like you to answer one of mine just so I can understand your point-of-view: So here's a simple question of mine - do you believe that Jesus Christ taught that people who wanted to follow his way should separate themselves from Judaism?

It needn't be a detailed answer - just a simple yes or no will be ok or you could write a detailed answer. It's up to you.

 

Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus

Posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 17:17:54

In reply to Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp floatingbridge, posted by hyperfocus on June 13, 2011, at 15:59:53

hyperfocus, that's very helpful. I think I'm going to poke around a few churches and meet some people. I want some kind of faith or abiding in my son's life and our family's.

My BS detector has really gotten to be pretty exceptional. I have no problem walking on something after an assessment.

In the end, what counts for me are kindness and good works, a deep respect for others and by extension, our planet.

If a church will not hassle me with rules nor fill my child's head w/ nonsense about who goes to heaven and why, that's a big plus. I think I'll go by myself and check it out.

I have horrible memories of catechism. Face slapping; no questions allowed. Sending my son into a catechism class would be a hurdle I am not prepared to take yet.

We'll see how church goes first.

I can't even believe I am thinking of doing this. But here I go....

fb

 

Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp floatingbridge

Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2011, at 9:35:39

In reply to Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 17:17:54

I think it enriched my life no end to grow up as a member of the Mormon church. There I was taught the very important lesson that I was a child of God and that he loved me. And as important, that everyone else was also a child of God and that he loved them as well. That assurance is part of who I am today, and why at the core I will always have a sense that I am valuable and love-able. And that others are also valuable and love-able. And that we had a purpose here on earth, to be God's hands and help make the world a better place.

Unfortunately, I felt I had to leave the church I still love because my theological beliefs weren't a good fit, although I still believe what to me is the important part. Eventually, I joined my current church not only because of their views but because they were tolerant of my heretical views. And I daresay my views would be heretical no matter what religion I belonged to. I was completely honest with the minister before I joined, and he said that God liked when people thought about faith matters, even if their conclusions weren't the same as the majority. I am of course respectful of the views of others in the church. After all, I figure it would be a tad presumptuous of me to believe that I could speak for the Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen. Overall I have no problem with people believing in heaven or how to get there. I have more problem with beliefs about who *won't* get there should it exist. I worry more about this world. Whatever happens after death is, no doubt, what it should be. I trust my God.

I'm happy in my current faith home, and have found an open minded, thinking, community of people who care more about what I care about. Who go on mission trips to help rebuild homes, feed the hungry, etc.. (Although I'm a bit hypocritical here, as I've never gotten the nerve to go on one.) I think that may depend more on a particular congregation and their pastor than it does on the denomination. I was with another congregation whose pastor I loved, but where the people were a bit more traditional than my current congregation. A wonderful group of people, but not my spiritual home.

My son no doubt hears things that don't tally with my belief system. I talk to him about what I believe. Without for the most part, trying to influence his conclusion. If it's really important to me, such as verses of the Bible that can be used in a way that is not respectful of other faiths, I speak very strongly to him. Beforehand if possible.

I would be very sad if he didn't have the firm conviction that he was a child of a God who loved him. And honestly, I don't think that is emphasized as much in our current faith as it was in my childhood one. I miss being Mormon. I used to sing to him some of my favorite Mormon songs, when he was little.

My Heavenly Father Loves Me
Words and music: Clara W. McMaster

Whenever I hear the song of a bird or look at the blue, blue sky,
Whenever I feel the rain on my face or the wind as it rushes by.
Whenever I touch a velvet rose or walk by our lilac tree
Im glad that I live in this beautiful world Heavenly Father created for me.

He gave me my eyes that I might see the color of butterfly wings.
He gave me my ears that I might hear the magical sound of things.
He gave me my life my mind my heart; I thank him reverently,
for all his creations, of which Im a part.

Yes I know Heavenly Father loves me.


 

for Dinah Dinah

Posted by floatingbridge on June 18, 2011, at 11:24:03

In reply to Re: more questions, anyone? + one for hp floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on June 18, 2011, at 9:35:39

Dinah, the closing song is lovely. It reminds me of a song from my own childhood that I can't quite remember.

Strange fit as it may be, I think I'll youtube it to hear the music.

Thank for this post :-)

No matter the beliefs or constant disbelief I may have, how could I deny my son a heaven and a loving god?

When my son was three, my father died of mesothelioma (asbestos induced lung cancer). My dad, who really blew it with me took to my son, told him all and only the good things about heaven. He was going to meet my mom (my son, never having met her was very curious about
this.) And after all the pointless fights my father and I had about who gets in, my dad told my son only what he needed or wanted to know--that you see everyone there, they are all friends, you see all your pets and all the little animals
of the woods. This seemed somehow very healing for My boy, and for me!

Years of dogmatic rules were just gone and love remained.

Every Halloween since, My Bubs will spending some time dressing up as visitors who are waiting for us and brings us messages. Our old yellow lab comes every Halloween.

Who am I to deny my son such a obvious need?

I'm glad you found a good place for yourself and your family. And not everyone has to bang the nails, though maybe your son does and will. I know what you mean; however, sometimes my husband, (who is a good cook) will buy pre made food and call that cooking with his checkbook :)

 

Re: for Dinah floatingbridge

Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2011, at 15:06:58

In reply to for Dinah Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on June 18, 2011, at 11:24:03

That's sweet! I'm glad your father found love late in his life, and was able to share that with your son. I'm sorry he couldn't find it earlier.

Thank you for the YouTube idea. I found this one, which really made me feel the way I used to feel in Primary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FdW0diox4

My spirituality now is fairly unorthodox, but it still plays a significant role in my life.

 

Re: for Dinah Dinah

Posted by floatingbridge on June 18, 2011, at 15:35:26

In reply to Re: for Dinah floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on June 18, 2011, at 15:06:58

Thank you!

I sent it to my musician hubby to transcribe the chords for ukele for me.

My husband can play anything. Me, the ukele is about all the string power I can handle, though do I love cellos.

I'm so glad you posted this and had a good 'primary' feeling, too.

:-)

fb

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why? Christ_empowered

Posted by TemporarilyBob on September 8, 2012, at 18:20:55

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

I am way, way late in responding to this, but have you considered investigating the Religious Society of Friends, the Quakers? I'm sorry, it's very poor form for me to proselytize but if you're still reading this thread and have any questions, please send me a babble mail. There certainly are conservative Quakers but, as a whole, a conservative world view is the LAST thing we've ever been accused of.

 

Re: Christians are so...conservative. Why?

Posted by Sheri Adams on October 21, 2012, at 0:06:33

In reply to Christians are so...conservative. Why?, posted by Christ_empowered on May 10, 2011, at 16:05:21

Many Christians have become complacent over the past 20 years. I've been a Christian for 30 years now and my faith and beliefs have never staggered. Why? I simply believe fully in what the Bible says. It doesn't matter to me what the various denominations believe - whether going to movies or dances is right or wrong, whether drinking and smoking are right or wrong - if God has put His belief in the Bible, that is what I believe, that is what I take my stands on, without apology. I don't wishy wash my beliefs to make people comfortable, because doing that would make me uncomfortable. I believe in God, the entirety of the Bible, and that the Bible is fully true and fully inspired by God and written by God's chosen men. If you read the preface to most Bibles today, it will tell you what denominations believe in that Bible and how many of the various faiths believe what is outlined fully therein.
I live by the Bible, according to the Bible and for God with no grey areas. If it is in His Word, it is there in black and white, and history cannot be erased.

Sheri


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