Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 1002966

Shown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

What events in the Bible mean to me

Posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2011, at 23:44:35

I have never looked at the Bible as a book dictating opinions on or proscribing action towards any race or country or religion. Most of the people who read the Bible today are not descended from the ancient peoples whose beliefs and history it records. I didn't start reading the Bible because I trace my ancestry back to the ancient Israelites. I see in the Old Testament people and events and stories containing powerful archetypes and universal themes on good vs. evil; words of wisdom and comfort and inspiration and hope that endure for thousands of years in all parts of the world.

I don't think that narratives like Exodus are pejorative against Egyptians or any peoples that were in opposition to God's people. The idea of a righteous people freed from their oppression by their God and Him crushing a vastly superior military force on their behalf, is a powerful one that resonates within people in all places and all times and will never disappear. The condemnation of the followers of Ba'al or Moloch - those who 'carry their god in their hand' or make meaningless horrible sacrifices of children to call down blessings and make atonement for their evil deeds - resonates with many people today as so much of what is important in the world is so trivial. It is not the peoples themselves who call down judgement and condemnation and destruction by God. It is their actions that leads to their fate. I don't think it makes sense for descendants of the ancient Egyptians or Babylonians or Philistines or Ammomites or Moabites or Caananites to claim that the Old Testament is not historically true and defames these peoples.

This how I look at the New Testament as well. You can debate the historicity of the events of the NT including the relationship of Jesus to the Jews of that time as related by the Gospels, just as you can debate the historicity of Moses delivering the Israelites from the oppression of Egypt, or of Noah and The Ark and The Great Flood, or whether any person
named Moses or Noah actually existed. The Gospels and later NT writings are not to me a commentary on or a condemnation of Judaism. The idea that the person who offers salvation to his people and is despised and condemned and made to suffer a horrible death by them is just one idea out of many in the NT I find compelling. This concept of making atonement through sacrifice is a major theme of both books of the Bible and is found in many book of the OT. I don't think it makes sense to contend that events in the New Testament defame Jews, just as it does not make sense to contend that the Old Testament defames ancient peoples who opposed Israel.

If anyone one can elaborate why this reasoning is wrong I'd appreciate it.

 

Re: What events in the Bible mean to me

Posted by sigismund on November 19, 2011, at 21:53:56

In reply to What events in the Bible mean to me, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2011, at 23:44:35

IMO, you are thinking in an either/or way, and it might make more sense to think of both/and.

Ideas are important. The history of Marxism shows how poisonous ideas have poisonous results. And the history of Christianity shows the same. The Christianity I grew up with was clearly antiesemitic, but I was good at compartmentalisation, so it never occurred to me that the Jews of the Bible were the same people as the Jews of WWII. I was looking at the art in the Prado and could not fail to think that so much martyrdom must inevitably lead to revenge. The depictions of the Jews in some paintings are particularly awful. I was left feeling that the art was a slice of the history.

It is only in the last 30 years and in the US that Christianity has not been antisemitic, mostly that soft antisemitism that I grew up with, but not always, and anyway, one suspects that it has simply been displaced onto the other semitic people (who live above the oil).

 

Re: What events in the Bible mean to me

Posted by sigismund on November 20, 2011, at 0:14:27

In reply to Re: What events in the Bible mean to me, posted by sigismund on November 19, 2011, at 21:53:56

To be specific, I found, as a child, the lines 'His blood be on us and on our children and our children's children' really impressive in a way I can dimly recall.
It made it clear how wicked they were.

Now it seems melodramatic and unreal, and in a moral sense the most unspeakable thing to assert when we (surely) know it to be untrue.

 

Lou's request-dheheudhrhog sigismund

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 20, 2011, at 11:23:15

In reply to Re: What events in the Bible mean to me, posted by sigismund on November 20, 2011, at 0:14:27

> To be specific, I found, as a child, the lines 'His blood be on us and on our children and our children's children' really impressive in a way I can dimly recall.
> It made it clear how wicked they were.
>
> Now it seems melodramatic and unreal, and in a moral sense the most unspeakable thing to assert when we (surely) know it to be untrue.

Sigismund,
You wrote,[...thing to assert...].
The issue here that is in discussion covers many things that could be likely to expose Jews to hatred or contempt on the basis that Jews are depicted her in this site as those that can not have eternal life or forgivness on the basis that Jews reject the claim in question that has outstanding requests from me to Mr.Hsiung to post as to if in his thinking the statement in question is supportive or not.
As long as my request remains outstanding, readers could have the potential IMHHHO to considers Jews and others tthat do not accept the claim in question to be likely to be exposed to the potential of antisemitic violence.
You see, when people take psychotropic drugs, the drug could induce a mind-alterd state to compel the taker of the drug to want to kill themselves and/or others, even mass-murder. And when the person is in a community that promulgates antisemitim on the basis of allowing statement thatcould lead a Jew to feel put down and/or accused, then that taker of the drug could get in their mind to target a Jew for murder. After all, could they not be led to think that it is supportive to think the following about Jews?
To see the following post from here:
A. Go to the search page at the bottom of this page.
B. Type in:
[Lou's request to Dr Hsiung, December 13, dark]
You may see many posts. The one in question was posted on 6:47:49 to click on.
You will see the dehuminizing and drogatory imagery directed toward the Jews in the post. The deputy then at that time states that Mr. Hsiung did not delete the post. If he did, then why was not the post here also deleted? You see, there is much more to this that I can not post here due to prohibitions made to me by Mr. Hsiung.
Lou


 

Re: Lou's request-dheheudhrhog Lou Pilder

Posted by sigismund on November 20, 2011, at 20:54:04

In reply to Lou's request-dheheudhrhog sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on November 20, 2011, at 11:23:15

I managed it. Civility precludes the expression of opinion which I have in abundance. Just...... Heavily accented with American Exceptionalism, I would bet. Among the main victims of which are not the Jews, which limits my sympathy. I thought of you in the Prado though. There was a lot of Phillip II's paintings there. I heard he found drowning the Dutch the most effective way to deal with them. A pioneer.

 

Lou's request-ehynshtheyt hyperfocus

Posted by Lou Pilder on December 1, 2011, at 20:48:14

In reply to What events in the Bible mean to me, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2011, at 23:44:35

> I have never looked at the Bible as a book dictating opinions on or proscribing action towards any race or country or religion. Most of the people who read the Bible today are not descended from the ancient peoples whose beliefs and history it records. I didn't start reading the Bible because I trace my ancestry back to the ancient Israelites. I see in the Old Testament people and events and stories containing powerful archetypes and universal themes on good vs. evil; words of wisdom and comfort and inspiration and hope that endure for thousands of years in all parts of the world.
>
> I don't think that narratives like Exodus are pejorative against Egyptians or any peoples that were in opposition to God's people. The idea of a righteous people freed from their oppression by their God and Him crushing a vastly superior military force on their behalf, is a powerful one that resonates within people in all places and all times and will never disappear. The condemnation of the followers of Ba'al or Moloch - those who 'carry their god in their hand' or make meaningless horrible sacrifices of children to call down blessings and make atonement for their evil deeds - resonates with many people today as so much of what is important in the world is so trivial. It is not the peoples themselves who call down judgement and condemnation and destruction by God. It is their actions that leads to their fate. I don't think it makes sense for descendants of the ancient Egyptians or Babylonians or Philistines or Ammomites or Moabites or Caananites to claim that the Old Testament is not historically true and defames these peoples.
>
> This how I look at the New Testament as well. You can debate the historicity of the events of the NT including the relationship of Jesus to the Jews of that time as related by the Gospels, just as you can debate the historicity of Moses delivering the Israelites from the oppression of Egypt, or of Noah and The Ark and The Great Flood, or whether any person
> named Moses or Noah actually existed. The Gospels and later NT writings are not to me a commentary on or a condemnation of Judaism. The idea that the person who offers salvation to his people and is despised and condemned and made to suffer a horrible death by them is just one idea out of many in the NT I find compelling. This concept of making atonement through sacrifice is a major theme of both books of the Bible and is found in many book of the OT. I don't think it makes sense to contend that events in the New Testament defame Jews, just as it does not make sense to contend that the Old Testament defames ancient peoples who opposed Israel.
>
> If anyone one can elaborate why this reasoning is wrong I'd appreciate it.

hf,
You wrote,[...made to xxxxxx a yyyyyyyy death by them...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the foollowing here, then I couodl have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. In [...the person that offeres salvation to his people..] who is the person and who are his people?
A2. In,[...by them...] who are the people that are the {them}?
A3. Did the person offer salvation to people other than the {them}? If so, who?
B. Are you aware of how the statement in question has been used historically to persecute Jews?
C. Are you aware that (redacted by respondent)
D. Could it be that the several biblical verses that people use to foster what is in the statement in question could have a meaning unbeknownst to you that exonerates the people that are in the {them] from what you have posted here as to what the {them} did to the person that offerd salvation to them?
E.
Lou

 

Re: What events in the Bible mean to me

Posted by hyperfocus on December 5, 2011, at 19:56:34

In reply to Re: What events in the Bible mean to me, posted by sigismund on November 20, 2011, at 0:14:27

I was watching the first part of "The 50 years War" documentary and even in 1947 with all that had happened before, the newsreel voices talked with barely disguised contempt about "thousands of Jews fleeing 'persecution' in Europe, entering the British Mandate Palestine illegally on fine ships which had seen good war service but were now commandeered by these illegal alien Jews," as well as "'extremist' Jews committing acts of terrorism against the fine British Empire and law-abiding Arabs in Palestine." There were quite the diplomatic and military battles just to get a self-sufficient independent Jewish state for survivors of the genocide. It seemed that most leaders in the West including people like revered WWII U.S. general George Marshall - Truman's secretary of state - didn't care about the Jews and just wanted to keep the Arabs happy and prevent another war at any cost. Without arms from Czechoslovakia and other countries the Israeli forces would have been overrun pretty quickly in the '48 war. They got zero help from America and only desperate backs-against-the-wall-survival fighting eventually overcame the invading Arab League forces.

I suppose I was just lucky to grow up in a world where racism and discrimination were ultimately decided to be bad things. Back in the 80's and 90's when I grew up we had Sesame Street and Star Trek and Captain Planet telling us that everyone was equal, no matter where they were born or what they looked like. But it was only one or two decades earlier where racism was at most encouraged and at least tolerated - Funny Grandpa Will sure doesn't like ni---s and ki--s any bit - as nothing more than an anachronism or eccentricity. Of course this was before 9/11, when G.I. Joe got replaced by Jack Bauer and torture and mass surveillance and disregard for collateral damage and the human cost of war suddenly came back in vogue. But we all act according to our own selfish need for self-preservation, our own determination as to what will get us ahead in life and find acceptance with our peers. Today it's not profitable for anyone to engage in bigotry against Jews or blacks, but Arabs and Muslims seem to have have become acceptable targets.

As you say ideas are important. And any idea, good or bad, can be used to fuel the desires of men to the point where the realization becomes unrecognizable to the writers who originated the idea. When I read Bible stories as a child I was never able or saw no need to break the compartments separating the people I read about from real life flesh-and-blood people, no matter how compelling the writing was. But maybe my view is in the minority or just a privilege of growing up in a time when bigotry was not in anybody's interest.

But judging somebody based on things which happened in the past has never been a good idea for anything, ever. I'd like to be judged as an individual by my own actions and beliefs, not those around me. I don't think that's too much to expect in today's society.

 

Lou's request-seeking Sigusmisd Lou Pilder

Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2012, at 18:11:09

In reply to Lou's request-dheheudhrhog sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on November 20, 2011, at 11:23:15

> > To be specific, I found, as a child, the lines 'His blood be on us and on our children and our children's children' really impressive in a way I can dimly recall.
> > It made it clear how wicked they were.
> >
> > Now it seems melodramatic and unreal, and in a moral sense the most unspeakable thing to assert when we (surely) know it to be untrue.
>
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...thing to assert...].
> The issue here that is in discussion covers many things that could be likely to expose Jews to hatred or contempt on the basis that Jews are depicted her in this site as those that can not have eternal life or forgivness on the basis that Jews reject the claim in question that has outstanding requests from me to Mr.Hsiung to post as to if in his thinking the statement in question is supportive or not.
> As long as my request remains outstanding, readers could have the potential IMHHHO to considers Jews and others tthat do not accept the claim in question to be likely to be exposed to the potential of antisemitic violence.
> You see, when people take psychotropic drugs, the drug could induce a mind-alterd state to compel the taker of the drug to want to kill themselves and/or others, even mass-murder. And when the person is in a community that promulgates antisemitim on the basis of allowing statement thatcould lead a Jew to feel put down and/or accused, then that taker of the drug could get in their mind to target a Jew for murder. After all, could they not be led to think that it is supportive to think the following about Jews?
> To see the following post from here:
> A. Go to the search page at the bottom of this page.
> B. Type in:
> [Lou's request to Dr Hsiung, December 13, dark]
> You may see many posts. The one in question was posted on 6:47:49 to click on.
> You will see the dehuminizing and drogatory imagery directed toward the Jews in the post. The deputy then at that time states that Mr. Hsiung did not delete the post. If he did, then why was not the post here also deleted? You see, there is much more to this that I can not post here due to prohibitions made to me by Mr. Hsiung.
> Lou
>
> Sigismund,
If you could post from your perspective here some more, I think that you could be of help to the Jews throughout the world because of the nature now that Mr Hsiung is encouraging members here by the nature of him allowing others to defame me here, and by what he has posted about me here that allows a member to defame me and dump hatred upon me including using me for a scapegoat for their real or imaigined in their minds that I am causing harm here. I am not causing anyone harm for I have come to help people be free from addiction and depression and to avoid death and life-ruining conditions.
If you could continue from your perspective I think that could go a long way to helping the Jews and others that could be used as a target for hate by the nature of what Mr Hsiung is allowing here.
In,{his blood be upon...}, there is more posted that continues to defame the Jews that is being allowed to be posted here. Please look at the admin board and post from your perspective that I see could help Jews and others from being victims of violence.
Lou
>


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