Psycho-Babble Administration Thread 1090852

Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Re: Number of deaths by psychiatric medication ╗ Lou PIlder

Posted by Tabitha on July 25, 2016, at 11:50:53

In reply to Lou's response-jump, jump, Tabitha, posted by Lou PIlder on July 24, 2016, at 19:20:09

> You wrote,[...please don't exaggerate..]
> > This was your response to that I wrote that thousands of people including children are killed by these drugs each month
> I use 40,000 are killed each year by these drugs and others use 500,000. Please do not accuse me falsely of exaggerating, for my number is based on the low end of the number of deaths each month from drugs.
>
>

Data on causes of death in the U.S. is tracked by the CDC and linked here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

If psychiatric medication killed 40,000 to 500,000 people per year, it would be a leading cause of death. For comparison, among the top causes of death, cancer (#2) kills 590,000 and suicide (#10) kills 42,000. The smallest among the top 15 is pneumonitis, which kills 19,000. Psychiatric medication does not appear in the list at all. Thus it is not possible that psychiatric medication kills 40,000 to 500,000 per year.

In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.

This is data from 2014:
... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
5 Cerebrovascular diseases (I60-I69) 133,103 5.1 41.7
6 Alzheimer's disease (G30) 93,541 3.6 29.3
7 Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) 76,488 2.9 24.0
8 Influenza and pneumonia (J09-J18) 55,227 2.1 17.3
9 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (N00-N07,N17-N19,N25-N27) 48,146 1.8 15.1
10 Intentional self-harm (suicide) (*U03,X60-X84,Y87.0) 42,773 1.6 13.4
11 Septicemia (A40-A41) 38,940 1.5 12.2
12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (K70,K73-K74) 38,170 1.5 12.0
13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (I10,I12,I15) 30,221 1.2 9.5
14 Parkinson's disease (G20-G21) 26,150 1.0 8.2
15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
... All other causes (residual) 535,666 20.4 168.0

 

Lou's response-can you see it? ╗ Tabitha

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 25, 2016, at 13:06:19

In reply to Re: Number of deaths by psychiatric medication ╗ Lou PIlder, posted by Tabitha on July 25, 2016, at 11:50:53

> > You wrote,[...please don't exaggerate..]
> > > This was your response to that I wrote that thousands of people including children are killed by these drugs each month
> > I use 40,000 are killed each year by these drugs and others use 500,000. Please do not accuse me falsely of exaggerating, for my number is based on the low end of the number of deaths each month from drugs.
> >
> >
>
> Data on causes of death in the U.S. is tracked by the CDC and linked here:
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
>
> If psychiatric medication killed 40,000 to 500,000 people per year, it would be a leading cause of death. For comparison, among the top causes of death, cancer (#2) kills 590,000 and suicide (#10) kills 42,000. The smallest among the top 15 is pneumonitis, which kills 19,000. Psychiatric medication does not appear in the list at all. Thus it is not possible that psychiatric medication kills 40,000 to 500,000 per year.
>
> In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
>
> This is data from 2014:
> ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> 5 Cerebrovascular diseases (I60-I69) 133,103 5.1 41.7
> 6 Alzheimer's disease (G30) 93,541 3.6 29.3
> 7 Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) 76,488 2.9 24.0
> 8 Influenza and pneumonia (J09-J18) 55,227 2.1 17.3
> 9 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (N00-N07,N17-N19,N25-N27) 48,146 1.8 15.1
> 10 Intentional self-harm (suicide) (*U03,X60-X84,Y87.0) 42,773 1.6 13.4
> 11 Septicemia (A40-A41) 38,940 1.5 12.2
> 12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (K70,K73-K74) 38,170 1.5 12.0
> 13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (I10,I12,I15) 30,221 1.2 9.5
> 14 Parkinson's disease (G20-G21) 26,150 1.0 8.2
> 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
> ... All other causes (residual) 535,666 20.4 168.0
>
Friends
Be not deceived here. Ask yourself: What caused the heart attack? What caused the death by liver, kidney, blood, etc disease? There is a whole lot more to what Tabitha wants you to believe. Can you see it? Tell me if you see it.
Lou
http://www.wayneramsay.com/drugs.htm

 

Re: can you see it?

Posted by Tabitha on July 25, 2016, at 14:34:47

In reply to Lou's response-can you see it? ╗ Tabitha, posted by Lou PIlder on July 25, 2016, at 13:06:19


> Friends
> Be not deceived here. Ask yourself: What caused the heart attack? What caused the death by liver, kidney, blood, etc disease? There is a whole lot more to what Tabitha wants you to believe. Can you see it? Tell me if you see it.
> Lou
> http://www.wayneramsay.com/drugs.htm
>
>

Lou, what if
- I kept saying that dog bites are killing thousands of people per month.
- someone pointed me to the CDC statistics on deaths, which show that dog bites are not among the causes of death of thousands of people per month.
- I then said that dog bites are actually *causing the causes* of death
- To support my point, I used the existence of a website by a person who was convinced that dog bites are a leading cause of death, who, to support his position, cited a lot of other people who are convinced that dog bites are a leading cause of death.

Would you become convinced that dog bites are a leading cause of death?

Also, what if
- I went to a site called welovedogs.com and, when people posted pictures of their cute new puppies or beloved dog companions, I told them that dogs are not actually companions at all, but in fact they are biting and killing thousands of people per month.

Would you approve of my actions?

 

Re: can you see it? ╗ Tabitha

Posted by SLS on July 25, 2016, at 18:31:26

In reply to Re: can you see it?, posted by Tabitha on July 25, 2016, at 14:34:47

> Lou, what if
> - I kept saying that dog bites are killing thousands of people per month.
> - someone pointed me to the CDC statistics on deaths, which show that dog bites are not among the causes of death of thousands of people per month.
> - I then said that dog bites are actually *causing the causes* of death
> - To support my point, I used the existence of a website by a person who was convinced that dog bites are a leading cause of death, who, to support his position, cited a lot of other people who are convinced that dog bites are a leading cause of death.
>
> Would you become convinced that dog bites are a leading cause of death?
>
> Also, what if
> - I went to a site called welovedogs.com and, when people posted pictures of their cute new puppies or beloved dog companions, I told them that dogs are not actually companions at all, but in fact they are biting and killing thousands of people per month.
>
> Would you approve of my actions?


Your flawless logic is making my head spin.

:-)


- Scott

 

Re: Thx for the appreciation :-) (nm) ╗ SLS

Posted by Tabitha on July 25, 2016, at 20:48:18

In reply to Re: can you see it? ╗ Tabitha, posted by SLS on July 25, 2016, at 18:31:26

 

Lou's response-death by psychiatric drugs

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 25, 2016, at 21:48:24

In reply to Lou's response-can you see it? ╗ Tabitha, posted by Lou PIlder on July 25, 2016, at 13:06:19

> > > You wrote,[...please don't exaggerate..]
> > > > This was your response to that I wrote that thousands of people including children are killed by these drugs each month
> > > I use 40,000 are killed each year by these drugs and others use 500,000. Please do not accuse me falsely of exaggerating, for my number is based on the low end of the number of deaths each month from drugs.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Data on causes of death in the U.S. is tracked by the CDC and linked here:
> > http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
> >
> > If psychiatric medication killed 40,000 to 500,000 people per year, it would be a leading cause of death. For comparison, among the top causes of death, cancer (#2) kills 590,000 and suicide (#10) kills 42,000. The smallest among the top 15 is pneumonitis, which kills 19,000. Psychiatric medication does not appear in the list at all. Thus it is not possible that psychiatric medication kills 40,000 to 500,000 per year.
> >
> > In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
> >
> > This is data from 2014:
> > ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> > 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> > 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> > 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> > 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> > 5 Cerebrovascular diseases (I60-I69) 133,103 5.1 41.7
> > 6 Alzheimer's disease (G30) 93,541 3.6 29.3
> > 7 Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) 76,488 2.9 24.0
> > 8 Influenza and pneumonia (J09-J18) 55,227 2.1 17.3
> > 9 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (N00-N07,N17-N19,N25-N27) 48,146 1.8 15.1
> > 10 Intentional self-harm (suicide) (*U03,X60-X84,Y87.0) 42,773 1.6 13.4
> > 11 Septicemia (A40-A41) 38,940 1.5 12.2
> > 12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (K70,K73-K74) 38,170 1.5 12.0
> > 13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (I10,I12,I15) 30,221 1.2 9.5
> > 14 Parkinson's disease (G20-G21) 26,150 1.0 8.2
> > 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
> > ... All other causes (residual) 535,666 20.4 168.0
> >
> Friends
> Be not deceived here. Ask yourself: What caused the heart attack? What caused the death by liver, kidney, blood, etc disease? There is a whole lot more to what Tabitha wants you to believe. Can you see it? Tell me if you see it.
> Lou
> http://www.wayneramsay.com/drugs.htm
>
> Friends,
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dozpAshvtsA

 

Re: death by psychiatric drugs

Posted by Tabitha on July 26, 2016, at 12:25:34

In reply to Lou's response-death by psychiatric drugs, posted by Lou PIlder on July 25, 2016, at 21:48:24


> > > In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
> > >
> > > This is data from 2014:
> > > ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> > > 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> > > 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> > > 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> > > 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> > > 5 Cerebrovascular diseases (I60-I69) 133,103 5.1 41.7
> > > 6 Alzheimer's disease (G30) 93,541 3.6 29.3
> > > 7 Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) 76,488 2.9 24.0
> > > 8 Influenza and pneumonia (J09-J18) 55,227 2.1 17.3
> > > 9 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (N00-N07,N17-N19,N25-N27) 48,146 1.8 15.1
> > > 10 Intentional self-harm (suicide) (*U03,X60-X84,Y87.0) 42,773 1.6 13.4
> > > 11 Septicemia (A40-A41) 38,940 1.5 12.2
> > > 12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (K70,K73-K74) 38,170 1.5 12.0
> > > 13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (I10,I12,I15) 30,221 1.2 9.5
> > > 14 Parkinson's disease (G20-G21) 26,150 1.0 8.2
> > > 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
> > > ... All other causes (residual) 535,666 20.4 168.0


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dozpAshvtsA
>
>

The video shows Peter G°tzsche claiming that prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer, that these drugs kill around 200,000 people in America every year, that half are death from side effects and half due to prescribing errors. That is a fantastic claim, given that it contradicts the actual death statistics from the CDC. Have you heard the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? He is making an extraordinary claim, and providing no evidence other than his own statements.

He continues on with more fantastical claims, comparing the drug industry to the Mafia, claiming widespread corruption and bribery, again with no evidence other than his own statements. This is where I stopped listening and concluded he is a total crackpot.

Incidentally I notice that the video is on the Dr John McDougall channel. I'm familiar with his work. He promotes a low-fat vegan diet for which he makes a lot of un-substantiated health claims. He charges high fees for diet consultations and retreats. He has had medical colleagues ask him to present data to support his claims about the benefit of his diet, but he dismisses them, and believes he is capable on his own of determining that his diet works as advertised. This is very poor practice and borderline un-ethical. His colleagues understand that cognitive bias and other factors can easily mislead people into thinking treatments work when they don't. This is why rigorous testing has been used since the mid-20th-century. Dr McDougall insists such standards don't apply to him.

Not only does he promote and sell un-proven techniques, but he actively encourages people to stop their current medical treatments. He routinely advises people to stop their blood pressure and cholesterol medication. He advises people to treat breast cancer with only local excision, despite ample evidence that this increases relapse and decreases survival. He gives medical advice over email. Frankly I am surprised he still has a medical license. I assume his popularity insulates him from censure.


 

Re: drug-induced mortality

Posted by Tabitha on July 26, 2016, at 15:14:29

In reply to Re: Number of deaths by psychiatric medication ╗ Lou PIlder, posted by Tabitha on July 25, 2016, at 11:50:53

> In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
>
> This is data from 2014:
> ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> ...
> 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9


Just looked into this some more-- I mis-interpreted the above data. The category #4, Accidents, includes drug-induced deaths. I thought it meant traumatic injury such as car accidents.

So for 2013, there were in fact 46,000 drug-induced deaths in the U.S. total (legal, illegal, abuse and as-prescribed). I can't find a specific breakout of those categories, but I would speculate that opioid pain-killers are the #1 killer among Rx drugs. However, it's still clear that a claim that 200,000 or 500,000 deaths occur is exaggerated.

Lou also posted that some people say 40,000, which is in the ballpark of 46,000. But in this context, people are discussing as-prescribed use of certain medications (psych meds), so it's inaccurate and unnecessarily alarming to cite death numbers that include all types of drugs and all types of usage.

===

From http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf :

"In 2013, a total of 46,471 persons died of drug-induced causes
in the United States (Tables 10, 12, and 13). This category includes
deaths from poisoning and medical conditions caused by use of
legal or illegal drugs, as well as deaths from poisoning due to
medically prescribed and other drugs. It excludes unintentional
injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use,
as well as newborn deaths due to the mothers drug use. (For a list
of drug-induced causes, see Technical Notes; also see the discussion
of poisoning mortality that uses the more narrow definition of
poisoning as an injury in the preceding Injury mortality by mechanism
and intent section.)"

 

Lou's reply-add up the deaths ╗ Tabitha

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 9:25:25

In reply to Re: drug-induced mortality, posted by Tabitha on July 26, 2016, at 15:14:29

> > In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
> >
> > This is data from 2014:
> > ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> > 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> > 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> > 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> > 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> > ...
> > 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
>
>
> Just looked into this some more-- I mis-interpreted the above data. The category #4, Accidents, includes drug-induced deaths. I thought it meant traumatic injury such as car accidents.
>
> So for 2013, there were in fact 46,000 drug-induced deaths in the U.S. total (legal, illegal, abuse and as-prescribed). I can't find a specific breakout of those categories, but I would speculate that opioid pain-killers are the #1 killer among Rx drugs. However, it's still clear that a claim that 200,000 or 500,000 deaths occur is exaggerated.
>
> Lou also posted that some people say 40,000, which is in the ballpark of 46,000. But in this context, people are discussing as-prescribed use of certain medications (psych meds), so it's inaccurate and unnecessarily alarming to cite death numbers that include all types of drugs and all types of usage.
>
> ===
>
> From http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf :
>
> "In 2013, a total of 46,471 persons died of drug-induced causes
> in the United States (Tables 10, 12, and 13). This category includes
> deaths from poisoning and medical conditions caused by use of
> legal or illegal drugs, as well as deaths from poisoning due to
> medically prescribed and other drugs. It excludes unintentional
> injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use,
> as well as newborn deaths due to the mothers drug use. (For a list
> of drug-induced causes, see Technical Notes; also see the discussion
> of poisoning mortality that uses the more narrow definition of
> poisoning as an injury in the preceding Injury mortality by mechanism
> and intent section.)"
>
> Tabitha,
Let me try to help you here. The deaths from these drugs can be compiled. This is because a pathologist can determine what caused the death.
Let us look at Remeron. Remeron can cause agranulocytosis which can cause death. The pathologist rules out other cause if there is Remeron in the deceased person's blood.
Then the death is recorded as being caused by Remeron and these records are available.
Let us look at these records.
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/mirtazapine/agranulocytosis
NOw you see there are numbers that can be added to a data base of other deaths caused by these drugs. Then all the deaths can be known as to be caused by the drug and the number 40000 can be generally accepted
Lou

 

Lou's reply-add up the deaths-geodon

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 9:41:52

In reply to Lou's reply-add up the deaths ╗ Tabitha, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 9:25:25

> > > In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
> > >
> > > This is data from 2014:
> > > ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> > > 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> > > 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> > > 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> > > 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> > > ...
> > > 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
> >
> >
> > Just looked into this some more-- I mis-interpreted the above data. The category #4, Accidents, includes drug-induced deaths. I thought it meant traumatic injury such as car accidents.
> >
> > So for 2013, there were in fact 46,000 drug-induced deaths in the U.S. total (legal, illegal, abuse and as-prescribed). I can't find a specific breakout of those categories, but I would speculate that opioid pain-killers are the #1 killer among Rx drugs. However, it's still clear that a claim that 200,000 or 500,000 deaths occur is exaggerated.
> >
> > Lou also posted that some people say 40,000, which is in the ballpark of 46,000. But in this context, people are discussing as-prescribed use of certain medications (psych meds), so it's inaccurate and unnecessarily alarming to cite death numbers that include all types of drugs and all types of usage.
> >
> > ===
> >
> > From http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf :
> >
> > "In 2013, a total of 46,471 persons died of drug-induced causes
> > in the United States (Tables 10, 12, and 13). This category includes
> > deaths from poisoning and medical conditions caused by use of
> > legal or illegal drugs, as well as deaths from poisoning due to
> > medically prescribed and other drugs. It excludes unintentional
> > injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use,
> > as well as newborn deaths due to the mothers drug use. (For a list
> > of drug-induced causes, see Technical Notes; also see the discussion
> > of poisoning mortality that uses the more narrow definition of
> > poisoning as an injury in the preceding Injury mortality by mechanism
> > and intent section.)"
> >
> > Tabitha,
> Let me try to help you here. The deaths from these drugs can be compiled. This is because a pathologist can determine what caused the death.
> Let us look at Remeron. Remeron can cause agranulocytosis which can cause death. The pathologist rules out other cause if there is Remeron in the deceased person's blood.
> Then the death is recorded as being caused by Remeron and these records are available.
> Let us look at these records.
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/mirtazapine/agranulocytosis
> NOw you see there are numbers that can be added to a data base of other deaths caused by these drugs. Then all the deaths can be known as to be caused by the drug and the number 40000 can be generally accepted
> Lou
>
> Tabitha,
Be not deceived. The generally accepted number of deaths caused by psychiatric drugs varies from 37,000 to 90,000 each year. The other figures are speculations from deaths in nursing homes but are generally accepted by a subset of doctors. I use the thousands of deaths each month because I have graduate study in statistics and understand how these numbers are compiled.
Now let us look at Geodon in sudden death:
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/geodon/sudden%20death
notice the combinations as to the class of drugs
Lou

 

Lou's reply-add up the deaths-one death at a time

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 10:04:12

In reply to Lou's reply-add up the deaths-geodon, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 9:41:52

> > > > In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
> > > >
> > > > This is data from 2014:
> > > > ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> > > > 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> > > > 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> > > > 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> > > > 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> > > > ...
> > > > 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
> > >
> > >
> > > Just looked into this some more-- I mis-interpreted the above data. The category #4, Accidents, includes drug-induced deaths. I thought it meant traumatic injury such as car accidents.
> > >
> > > So for 2013, there were in fact 46,000 drug-induced deaths in the U.S. total (legal, illegal, abuse and as-prescribed). I can't find a specific breakout of those categories, but I would speculate that opioid pain-killers are the #1 killer among Rx drugs. However, it's still clear that a claim that 200,000 or 500,000 deaths occur is exaggerated.
> > >
> > > Lou also posted that some people say 40,000, which is in the ballpark of 46,000. But in this context, people are discussing as-prescribed use of certain medications (psych meds), so it's inaccurate and unnecessarily alarming to cite death numbers that include all types of drugs and all types of usage.
> > >
> > > ===
> > >
> > > From http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf :
> > >
> > > "In 2013, a total of 46,471 persons died of drug-induced causes
> > > in the United States (Tables 10, 12, and 13). This category includes
> > > deaths from poisoning and medical conditions caused by use of
> > > legal or illegal drugs, as well as deaths from poisoning due to
> > > medically prescribed and other drugs. It excludes unintentional
> > > injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use,
> > > as well as newborn deaths due to the mothers drug use. (For a list
> > > of drug-induced causes, see Technical Notes; also see the discussion
> > > of poisoning mortality that uses the more narrow definition of
> > > poisoning as an injury in the preceding Injury mortality by mechanism
> > > and intent section.)"
> > >
> > > Tabitha,
> > Let me try to help you here. The deaths from these drugs can be compiled. This is because a pathologist can determine what caused the death.
> > Let us look at Remeron. Remeron can cause agranulocytosis which can cause death. The pathologist rules out other cause if there is Remeron in the deceased person's blood.
> > Then the death is recorded as being caused by Remeron and these records are available.
> > Let us look at these records.
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/mirtazapine/agranulocytosis
> > NOw you see there are numbers that can be added to a data base of other deaths caused by these drugs. Then all the deaths can be known as to be caused by the drug and the number 40000 can be generally accepted
> > Lou
> >
> > Tabitha,
> Be not deceived. The generally accepted number of deaths caused by psychiatric drugs varies from 37,000 to 90,000 each year. The other figures are speculations from deaths in nursing homes but are generally accepted by a subset of doctors. I use the thousands of deaths each month because I have graduate study in statistics and understand how these numbers are compiled.
> Now let us look at Geodon in sudden death:
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/geodon/sudden%20death
> notice the combinations as to the class of drugs
> Lou
>
> Tabitha,
Be not deceived. The number of deaths from these drugs is well-known and accurate and the number is increasing. One of the factors that cause the increase is sites like this where readers are seriously misled to think that these drugs are safer than they really are and that people like myself are prevented from posting what could save your life by those like Mr. Hsiung. If his prohibitions to me were lifted, I could open the eyes of readers here to be healed from these drugs. The tragedy here is that people like yourself and Scott and Larry Hoover are allowed to inflict defamation upon me over and over by Mr. Hsiung that could decrease the respect and regard and confidence in which am held and induce hostile and disagreeable opinions and feeling toward me. Scott even advocates that readers ignore what I post here. What a shame for those that have been killed here and those that are following the shepherd of death.
Let us look at this site that compiles individually the deaths. In this one, Zoloft is used to show each of hundreds of deaths that you can examine by themselves, one death at a time. Then you can put in other drugs and see the hundreds of deaths. These numbers are not speculations and the 40000 is conservative.
Lou
http://www..druglib.com/reported-side-effects/zoloft/seriousness_death

 

correction:add up the deaths-one death at a time

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 10:15:20

In reply to Lou's reply-add up the deaths-one death at a time, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 10:04:12

> > > > > In fact, there is no class of medications listed as a leading cause of death. It is all illnesses, accidents, and suicide.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is data from 2014:
> > > > > ... All causes 2,626,418 100.0 823.7
> > > > > 1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09,I11,I13,I20-I51) 614,348 23.4 192.7
> > > > > 2 Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) 591,699 22.5 185.6
> > > > > 3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 147,101 5.6 46.1
> > > > > 4 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) 136,053 5.2 42.7
> > > > > ...
> > > > > 15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids (J69) 18,792 0.7 5.9
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just looked into this some more-- I mis-interpreted the above data. The category #4, Accidents, includes drug-induced deaths. I thought it meant traumatic injury such as car accidents.
> > > >
> > > > So for 2013, there were in fact 46,000 drug-induced deaths in the U.S. total (legal, illegal, abuse and as-prescribed). I can't find a specific breakout of those categories, but I would speculate that opioid pain-killers are the #1 killer among Rx drugs. However, it's still clear that a claim that 200,000 or 500,000 deaths occur is exaggerated.
> > > >
> > > > Lou also posted that some people say 40,000, which is in the ballpark of 46,000. But in this context, people are discussing as-prescribed use of certain medications (psych meds), so it's inaccurate and unnecessarily alarming to cite death numbers that include all types of drugs and all types of usage.
> > > >
> > > > ===
> > > >
> > > > From http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf :
> > > >
> > > > "In 2013, a total of 46,471 persons died of drug-induced causes
> > > > in the United States (Tables 10, 12, and 13). This category includes
> > > > deaths from poisoning and medical conditions caused by use of
> > > > legal or illegal drugs, as well as deaths from poisoning due to
> > > > medically prescribed and other drugs. It excludes unintentional
> > > > injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use,
> > > > as well as newborn deaths due to the mothers drug use. (For a list
> > > > of drug-induced causes, see Technical Notes; also see the discussion
> > > > of poisoning mortality that uses the more narrow definition of
> > > > poisoning as an injury in the preceding Injury mortality by mechanism
> > > > and intent section.)"
> > > >
> > > > Tabitha,
> > > Let me try to help you here. The deaths from these drugs can be compiled. This is because a pathologist can determine what caused the death.
> > > Let us look at Remeron. Remeron can cause agranulocytosis which can cause death. The pathologist rules out other cause if there is Remeron in the deceased person's blood.
> > > Then the death is recorded as being caused by Remeron and these records are available.
> > > Let us look at these records.
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/mirtazapine/agranulocytosis
> > > NOw you see there are numbers that can be added to a data base of other deaths caused by these drugs. Then all the deaths can be known as to be caused by the drug and the number 40000 can be generally accepted
> > > Lou
> > >
> > > Tabitha,
> > Be not deceived. The generally accepted number of deaths caused by psychiatric drugs varies from 37,000 to 90,000 each year. The other figures are speculations from deaths in nursing homes but are generally accepted by a subset of doctors. I use the thousands of deaths each month because I have graduate study in statistics and understand how these numbers are compiled.
> > Now let us look at Geodon in sudden death:
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/geodon/sudden%20death
> > notice the combinations as to the class of drugs
> > Lou
> >
> > Tabitha,
> Be not deceived. The number of deaths from these drugs is well-known and accurate and the number is increasing. One of the factors that cause the increase is sites like this where readers are seriously misled to think that these drugs are safer than they really are and that people like myself are prevented from posting what could save your life by those like Mr. Hsiung. If his prohibitions to me were lifted, I could open the eyes of readers here to be healed from these drugs. The tragedy here is that people like yourself and Scott and Larry Hoover are allowed to inflict defamation upon me over and over by Mr. Hsiung that could decrease the respect and regard and confidence in which am held and induce hostile and disagreeable opinions and feeling toward me. Scott even advocates that readers ignore what I post here. What a shame for those that have been killed here and those that are following the shepherd of death.
> Let us look at this site that compiles individually the deaths. In this one, Zoloft is used to show each of hundreds of deaths that you can examine by themselves, one death at a time. Then you can put in other drugs and see the hundreds of deaths. These numbers are not speculations and the 40000 is conservative.
> Lou
> http://www..druglib.com/reported-side-effects/zoloft/seriousness_death
>
> Friends,
To see the cite with the number of deaths:
A. Pull up Googgle
B. Type in:
[ druglib, number of zoloft deaths ]

 

Re: add up the deaths

Posted by Tabitha on July 27, 2016, at 17:42:51

In reply to Lou's reply-add up the deaths ╗ Tabitha, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 9:25:25

> Let me try to help you here. The deaths from these drugs can be compiled. This is because a pathologist can determine what caused the death.

Yes, exactly, death certificates are the source of the data I am looking at from CDC.

> Let us look at Remeron. Remeron can cause agranulocytosis which can cause death. The pathologist rules out other cause if there is Remeron in the deceased person's blood.
Then the death is recorded as being caused by Remeron and these records are available.

That seems really questionable. If something has multiple potential causes, the presence of one cause doesn't rule out the possibility of other causes.

> Let us look at these records.
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/mirtazapine/agranulocytosis
NOw you see there are numbers that can be added to a data base of other deaths caused by these drugs.

Huh? There are no death numbers on that page. It's one of those automatically generated health websites that clutter up your search results. They take openly available databases with statistics on health conditions and medications, and vaguely imply there's a causal relationship. Note the titles "could Drug X cause Condition Y"? They are showing correlation, which is not sufficient to establish cause.

> Then all the deaths can be known as to be caused by the drug and the number 40000 can be generally accepted

No, I don't think so. 40,000 is still too high. I will summarize in another post.

 

Re: add up the deaths-geodon

Posted by Tabitha on July 27, 2016, at 17:55:00

In reply to Lou's reply-add up the deaths-geodon, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 9:41:52


> > Tabitha,
> Be not deceived. The generally accepted number of deaths caused by psychiatric drugs varies from 37,000 to 90,000 each year. The other figures are speculations from deaths in nursing homes but are generally accepted by a subset of doctors. I use the thousands of deaths each month because I have graduate study in statistics and understand how these numbers are compiled.
> Now let us look at Geodon in sudden death:
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/geodon/sudden%20death
> notice the combinations as to the class of drugs
> Lou
>
>

This makes no sense. The Geodon page, like the Remeron page you cited, is just reporting numbers of people who died while also taking Geodon. It also contains some real gems of automatically generated text such as "Do you have Sudden death when taking Geodon?" "How people recovered from Sudden Death"

Are you not reading the page?

If you have graduate study in statistics, that is terrific (I do as well), then surely you would understand the difference between correlation and causation. At this point I start to think you are intentionally citing pages that you know are poor quality to make it appear as if your claims are based on fact. Or perhaps even intending to waste people's time? Which is common behavior of internet trolls.

 

Re: correction:add up the deaths-one death at a time

Posted by Tabitha on July 27, 2016, at 18:19:27

In reply to correction:add up the deaths-one death at a time, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 10:15:20

> The tragedy here is that people like yourself and Scott and Larry Hoover are allowed to inflict defamation upon me over and over by Mr. Hsiung that could decrease the respect and regard and confidence in which am held and induce hostile and disagreeable opinions and feeling toward me. Scott even advocates that readers ignore what I post here.

Lou, what I have seen is that many people become frustrated as you repeatedly post alarming, threatening, and off-topic posts. When people try to engage with the factual content of your posts, you repeatedly provide poor quality references or simply ignore people's refutations to your dubious claims. Incivility results, which you often categorize as anti-semitism, creating more and more hostility and incivility. This is why people start to consider you to be trolling, and recommend ignoring your posts.

> What a shame for those that have been killed here and those that are following the shepherd of death.
> Let us look at this site that compiles individually the deaths. In this one, Zoloft is used to show each of hundreds of deaths that you can examine by themselves, one death at a time. Then you can put in other drugs and see the hundreds of deaths. These numbers are not speculations and the 40000 is conservative.
> Lou
> http://www..druglib.com/reported-side-effects/zoloft/seriousness_death
>
> Friends,
To see the cite with the number of deaths:
A. Pull up Googgle
B. Type in:
[ druglib, number of zoloft deaths ]

This is an adverse events database. It includes reports of any adverse event that occurred while taking zoloft. Nobody has determined that zoloft caused the death. Do you really not understand this? If you have a heart attack while taking an antibiotic, you can report it to an adverse events database. That doesn't mean the antibiotic caused the heart attack. What if you ate an apple the day beforehand? Did the apple cause the heart attack?

Citing adverse event records without context is a common scare tactic I see used to persuide people that pharmaceuticals are bad.

Ironically, the presence of adverse event databases is a reason to trust pharmaceuticals more than substances and methods that don't maintain such reporting. The reported data may eventually point to problems caused by medications which can lead to black box warning and removing unsafe medications from use. Meanwhile nobody is maintaining adverse event databases, for, say, supplements or meditation or religion or exercise or any of the alternatives people try to use to manage diagnosed mental illness.

 

Lou's reply-add up the deaths-one death at a time2 ╗ Tabitha

Posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 19:20:17

In reply to Re: correction:add up the deaths-one death at a time, posted by Tabitha on July 27, 2016, at 18:19:27

> > The tragedy here is that people like yourself and Scott and Larry Hoover are allowed to inflict defamation upon me over and over by Mr. Hsiung that could decrease the respect and regard and confidence in which am held and induce hostile and disagreeable opinions and feeling toward me. Scott even advocates that readers ignore what I post here.
>
> Lou, what I have seen is that many people become frustrated as you repeatedly post alarming, threatening, and off-topic posts. When people try to engage with the factual content of your posts, you repeatedly provide poor quality references or simply ignore people's refutations to your dubious claims. Incivility results, which you often categorize as anti-semitism, creating more and more hostility and incivility. This is why people start to consider you to be trolling, and recommend ignoring your posts.
>
> > What a shame for those that have been killed here and those that are following the shepherd of death.
> > Let us look at this site that compiles individually the deaths. In this one, Zoloft is used to show each of hundreds of deaths that you can examine by themselves, one death at a time. Then you can put in other drugs and see the hundreds of deaths. These numbers are not speculations and the 40000 is conservative.
> > Lou
> > http://www..druglib.com/reported-side-effects/zoloft/seriousness_death
> >
> > Friends,
> To see the cite with the number of deaths:
> A. Pull up Googgle
> B. Type in:
> [ druglib, number of zoloft deaths ]
>
> This is an adverse events database. It includes reports of any adverse event that occurred while taking zoloft. Nobody has determined that zoloft caused the death. Do you really not understand this? If you have a heart attack while taking an antibiotic, you can report it to an adverse events database. That doesn't mean the antibiotic caused the heart attack. What if you ate an apple the day beforehand? Did the apple cause the heart attack?
>
> Citing adverse event records without context is a common scare tactic I see used to persuide people that pharmaceuticals are bad.
>
> Ironically, the presence of adverse event databases is a reason to trust pharmaceuticals more than substances and methods that don't maintain such reporting. The reported data may eventually point to problems caused by medications which can lead to black box warning and removing unsafe medications from use. Meanwhile nobody is maintaining adverse event databases, for, say, supplements or meditation or religion or exercise or any of the alternatives people try to use to manage diagnosed mental illness.
>
Tabitha,
Let me help you here. The list of 200 or so deaths from that 100 day period involved those taking Zoloft. There were deaths of people taking combinations of drugs with Zoloft.
First, you have to start with a death. Then the task of determining if the cause of death was Zoloft. Out of those 200+ deaths listed in the 100 day period, the site does not say which ones were compiled into a data base of deaths caused by Zoloft. To determine which ones were caused by Zoloft requires a pathologist and many others using forensic knowledge involving microscopic study and other forensic tests to determine if there is a separating aspect from the death caused by Zoloft and from other causes. That can be done and you can find it in court cases where they had to prove that, let's say, Zoloft caused the death. You can get the case and the depositions and such and the expert testimony and lab tests and forensic data. Then it is compiled in another data base as a death caused by Zoloft. There are a great many of doctors that accept the 40000/year number as close to actual. I give that number because it is generally accepted, but I think that the real number of deaths per year is 1,000,000 world wide.
There are also other ways to determine if a death was caused by a drug. The tobacco companies have for years refused to accept that smoking causes cancer. They say that maybe those that died from cancer and smoked also did other things, such as they used an electric razor and the clippings went into their noses and caused lung cancer. Or they ate apples and such. But there are scientific ways to determine if smoking caused the cancer now just as there are scientific ways to determine if Seroquel caused a death. Those methods I could bring here but the time for me to explain them is not feasible now for me. But I agree with you, that correlation does not prove causation. This is why I have looked deeply into the ehealthme website and find it positively reliable in the statistics that they provide. In fact, so do others as their website is very popular and used by experts.
I have also studied what causes cancer and these drugs can cause cancer.
So death certificates show the cause of death, like cancer, but they do not state what caused the cancer. Diabetes is caused by many of these drugs and it can be determined if a drug cause the death. I may not have the time to explain that here to you, but you can research it on your own.
The tragedy here is that Mr. Hsiung knows, or should know, as a psychiatrist, all about the aspect of death from these drugs and intercede when others here advocate what could kill others. I try to do what he should do, and those that are killed here but can't be here all the time, their blood will not be upon me.
Lou

 

Re: add up the deaths-one death at a time2

Posted by Tabitha on July 28, 2016, at 12:17:36

In reply to Lou's reply-add up the deaths-one death at a time2 ╗ Tabitha, posted by Lou PIlder on July 27, 2016, at 19:20:17

> Let me help you here.

I don't know if you mean it that way, but it sounds a bit condescending. I'm not asking for your help. I'm trying to sort through your claims about deaths from pharmaceuticals and see whether they agree with best evidence. So far, they don't.


> The list of 200 or so deaths from that 100 day period involved those taking Zoloft. There were deaths of people taking combinations of drugs with Zoloft.

It says it is a one year period, not 100 days. I looked at the first page. There are some males over 50 years old that had heart attacks. There are a couple people over 90 years old that died. There's a baby born with multiple cardiac defects. There's a suicide by gunshot. Sure, it's possible zoloft was a cause of those deaths and it's good to maintain data on what medications people were taking when they had adverse events. But those are some very ordinary deaths. If someone is 90 years old, it's not unusual that they die. Likewise it's not unusual for males over 50 to have heart attacks. To implicate zoloft in the deaths you'd need to establish that for given groups of people, ones taking zoloft had more adverse events that ones not taking zoloft, after controlling for other factors. You just can't get that data from a list of adverse events occuring while people are taking zoloft.

> First, you have to start with a death. Then the task of determining if the cause of death was Zoloft. Out of those 200+ deaths listed in the 100 day period, the site does not say which ones were compiled into a data base of deaths caused by Zoloft. To determine which ones were caused by Zoloft requires a pathologist and many others using forensic knowledge involving microscopic study and other forensic tests to determine if there is a separating aspect from the death caused by Zoloft and from other causes. That can be done and you can find it in court cases where they had to prove that, let's say, Zoloft caused the death. You can get the case and the depositions and such and the expert testimony and lab tests and forensic data. Then it is compiled in another data base as a death caused by Zoloft.

So pathologists can look through microscopes and prove that a death was due to zoloft? That just seems wrong. I've never heard of such a case, and if it were true, zoloft would be recalled.


> There are a great many of doctors that accept the 40000/year number as close to actual. I give that number because it is generally accepted, but I think that the real number of deaths per year is 1,000,000 world wide.

You have no basis for the one million number, and no, the 40,000 figure is not generally accepted. Just a basic fact check such as I have done will show you that 40,000 is closer to the total number of deaths due to drug poisonings, and that number includes death by opioid analgesics (Rx and street drugs), which is by far the largest class of drugs causing deaths. The next class is benzodiazepenes, and those deaths include both mis-use and use as-prescribed. We know benzos have high potential for mis-use, so it's reasonable to think that as-prescribed use is a smaller number. Thus it is very misleading to continually cite a number that includes opiod drugs and intentional mis-use of drugs here in a context of people using psych meds under a doctors' guidance.

> There are also other ways to determine if a death was caused by a drug. The tobacco companies have for years refused to accept that smoking causes cancer. They say that maybe those that died from cancer and smoked also did other things, such as they used an electric razor and the clippings went into their noses and caused lung cancer. Or they ate apples and such.

Sure, it was outrageous the way tobacco companies suppressed and denied data. But the fact that tobacco companies did that is no proof that it is happening with pharmaceutical drugs today. It's possible, but it's still a pretty outrageous claim, so it's not really OK to throw it around with little to no evidence.

> But there are scientific ways to determine if smoking caused the cancer now just as there are scientific ways to determine if Seroquel caused a death. Those methods I could bring here but the time for me to explain them is not feasible now for me.

What? Are you saying you personally have knowledge of methods not known to the general scientific community? Yet you can't reveal them? If so it sounds rather dubious.


> But I agree with you, that correlation does not prove causation. This is why I have looked deeply into the ehealthme website and find it positively reliable in the statistics that they provide. In fact, so do others as their website is very popular and used by experts.

I think that website is popular with people who are looking for information about possible side effects from medication, and it's unfortunate that they present publicly accessible data with the most alarming possible spin on it. Then to avoid FDA censure for false claims, they pose their suggestions as questions such as "Does Zoloft cause Sudden Death?" They are attempting to profit off fear and ignorance, and the saddest thing is they may cause people who could be helped by medication to avoid it due to unfounded fears.

> I have also studied what causes cancer and these drugs can cause cancer.
> So death certificates show the cause of death, like cancer, but they do not state what caused the cancer. Diabetes is caused by many of these drugs and it can be determined if a drug cause the death. I may not have the time to explain that here to you, but you can research it on your own.

No, I can't research whether drugs cause cancer or not, and you can't either. We don't have the expertise or the access to research and patient information. We can research the current state of scientific knowledge, which does not indicate that the types of drugs we discuss here (psych meds) are known or suspected to cause cancer.

> The tragedy here is that Mr. Hsiung knows, or should know, as a psychiatrist, all about the aspect of death from these drugs and intercede when others here advocate what could kill others. I try to do what he should do, and those that are killed here but can't be here all the time, their blood will not be upon me.
> Lou
>

So you think Dr Bob intentionally recommends people take drugs that he knows will kill them? That would make him pretty evil. Do you ever question whether you might be mistaken or even paranoid? That is what most people are going to think of such beliefs.

 

Re: add up the deaths-one death at a time2 ╗ Tabitha

Posted by SLS on July 28, 2016, at 18:05:50

In reply to Re: add up the deaths-one death at a time2, posted by Tabitha on July 28, 2016, at 12:17:36

For what it is worth, Tabitha, I very much appreciate the time and effort you invest in promoting the health of the Psycho-Babble website and its members.


- Scott

 

Re: energy ╗ SLS

Posted by Tabitha on July 28, 2016, at 18:27:45

In reply to Re: add up the deaths-one death at a time2 ╗ Tabitha, posted by SLS on July 28, 2016, at 18:05:50

> For what it is worth, Tabitha, I very much appreciate the time and effort you invest in promoting the health of the Psycho-Babble website and its members.
>
>

It is worth quite a lot, thank you :-) I also appreciate the time & energy you give to folks here :-)


 

Re: energy

Posted by pontormo on July 30, 2016, at 0:37:22

In reply to Re: energy ╗ SLS, posted by Tabitha on July 28, 2016, at 18:27:45

the thing is the people who died while taking geodon also were probably also eating toast or cereal or eggs for breakfast, and/or drinking coffee or tea, or consuming vegetables and meat or fish for dinner, and/or smoking cigarettes, doing or not doing exercise, watching movies on netflix, or possible even Game of Thrones on tv or.. well the list goes on... -- and I daresay most people who die while taking geodon were also drinking water, breathing air, walking around, taking elevators, etc.

I'd like Lou to prove to me that these other factors were not singly, or in some combination, responsible for their deaths. Especially drinking water or breathing air. I've noticed that everyone who dies seems to be partaking of these substances.

 

Redirect: energy

Posted by SLS on July 30, 2016, at 8:04:52

In reply to Re: energy, posted by pontormo on July 30, 2016, at 0:37:22

Redirect to Medication:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20160713/msgs/1090994.html

> the thing is the people who died while taking geodon also were probably also eating toast or cereal or eggs for breakfast, and/or drinking coffee or tea, or consuming vegetables and meat or fish for dinner, and/or smoking cigarettes, doing or not doing exercise, watching movies on netflix, or possible even Game of Thrones on tv or.. well the list goes on... -- and I daresay most people who die while taking geodon were also drinking water, breathing air, walking around, taking elevators, etc.
>
> I'd like Lou to prove to me that these other factors were not singly, or in some combination, responsible for their deaths. Especially drinking water or breathing air. I've noticed that everyone who dies seems to be partaking of these substances.
>
>


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[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

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