Psycho-Babble Administration Thread 300134

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Re: other moderating styles

Posted by tabitha on January 13, 2004, at 23:01:34

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2004, at 21:02:35

I've seen forums where every heated thread gets locked and/or deleted. I've seen forums where you're not allowed to talk about each other at all-- you strictly have to talk about the topic. I've seen forums where personal attacks are allowed as long as they don't get too terribly flaming.

Personally I enjoy the unique features of Bob's moderating here. I like the out-in-the-open warnings and blocks, and the lively discussions about them. I know it's tempting to see PBCs and blocks as public humiliation and punishment by an impersonal authority figure, but it can also be seen as a learning experience. I've grown to appreciate the strict civility standards here. Bob advocates a sort of radically non-violent communication style. I like the idea that you can't attack someone, even if you're convinced they deserve it, or that doing so will make you feel better, or will make someone else feel better, or will force the 'offender' to become a better person. We *are* allowed to state our hurt or angry feelings toward another in a conflict, but without going into judging and labelling them. I think those are good rules, even though they've not always been easy for me to follow.

 

Re: other moderating styles tabitha

Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 5:37:34

In reply to Re: other moderating styles, posted by tabitha on January 13, 2004, at 23:01:34

I completely agree with you. I like it that Bob makes everyone *have* to be civil to one another. I also like it that he doesn't allow cuss words. I never liked the sound of cuss words, so I really doubt I would like reading them much either. To me, it feels safe here. I know that if someone hurts my feelings, it's likely that they will get in trouble for it. And, it helps keep me in check too. I have learned a lot about communicating on these boards, and how to do it effectively without being rude or uncivil.
Elle

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? tealady

Posted by NikkiT2 on January 14, 2004, at 6:15:55

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by tealady on January 13, 2004, at 18:38:21

Over the past 9 or 10 years (I was 19 when I first got on line, I've just turned 29, so coming up to 10 years I guess!) I've been online, I have probably been part of, ooh, a hundred or so forums.

Over the years, and through experience, I now only post at about 5. I post at the 5 where I feel safest from other posters.

Un moderated sites are NOT safe what so ever in my eyes. I moderated site I used, that the "managers" went AWOL from so it became un moderated.. I was suffering daily attacks there, hourly attacks, with personal info about myself being posted.

The thing that ahs kept me at PB for 5 years has been a) the lovely people I have become so close to. and b) the moderating style.

Now, I'm not saying Dr Bobs moderating is prefect. No one on earth is perfect. Its some times over heavy handed, its sometimes a bit wierd.. But all in all, when I weigh up the last 5 years, he keeps us safe from attacks, and will stand up for us if we are attacked.

I take safety from attacks over being blocked. Yes, I ahve been blocked, and *every* single time I've received a PBC or block I have known full well it was coming, and had decided what I wanted to say was more important to me than being blocked.

Nikki

 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them Dr. Bob

Posted by SLS on January 14, 2004, at 8:33:48

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2004, at 21:02:35

Hi Doctor.

> > > What are you trying to achieve by exercising your civility rules? > > > > What is the goal?
> > >
> > > How do you think it is going so far?


> > Perhaps safety is served well by the policies practiced here, but that doesn't require that it be the primary goal. Perhaps there are multiple goals.


> Sorry to answer a question with a question, but you referred to one possible secondary goal before:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/298045.html
>
> Were there others you were wondering about?


Nothing nefarious. I just thought that perhaps you were more interested in verbiage than in perception. I guess I'm still upset at you for blocking Larry Hoover. I really didn't think he deserved it. I'll go back and take another look at it, though. Maybe there is some sort of psychological model of interaction that is being enforced as an experiment or simply as a philosophy. I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd ask.

The post of mine that you cited was actually a genuine propositon rather than an accusation.

So, now, will you answer my questions? :-)

And another question. Is there some sort of published guideline to civil communication or prescriptive model of interaction that you refer to? Curious minds want to know... (at least mine does).


- Scott

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?

Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 15, 2004, at 1:59:40

In reply to Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by SLS on January 13, 2004, at 9:17:44

IMNSHO, Some of the PBC's and blocks are off balance in terms of fairness. I know, I was on the butt end of a particularily nasty attack for which I had no fault. Not that I really blame the guy, and we did sort it out later. (thanks to all that supported me, you know who you are) The problem is that the language was not altered, or the thread was not removed altogether. I feel it may have caused some people to not want to post with me.

That aside, I do agree with most everyone here that this forum is altogether quite safe on average. I've lurked a lot of other forums and most of them are all out slugfests.

 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:42:00

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on January 14, 2004, at 8:33:48

> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/298045.html
>
> [that] was actually a genuine propositon...

That's how I took it...

> I just thought that perhaps you were more interested in verbiage than in perception.

Perception is interesting, I just think it's better not to base administrative decisions on it...

> Maybe there is some sort of psychological model of interaction that is being enforced as an experiment or simply as a philosophy. I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd ask.
>
> So, now, will you answer my questions? :-)

Well, this whole thing is kind of an experiment, you know. Trying to develop a supportive online community, I mean...

For people to feel supported, they need at least to feel safe. For people to feel safe, limits need to be set. Specific limits imply a specific "model of interaction".

Maybe having a model of interaction work here would be the primary goal and having it generalize would be a secondary goal? Does that count as an answer?

> Is there some sort of published guideline to civil communication or prescriptive model of interaction that you refer to?

Not really, but there's a link in the FAQ, but the original seems to be gone, but Shar thoughtfully saved a copy:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020715/msgs/521.html

> I guess I'm still upset at you for blocking Larry Hoover.

I'm sorry that happened, too.

Bob

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:47:15

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 15, 2004, at 1:59:40

> I was on the butt end of a particularily nasty attack for which I had no fault. Not that I really blame the guy, and we did sort it out later.

Sorry again about that, and thanks for sorting it out...

> I feel it may have caused some people to not want to post with me.

I hope that's not the case. The posting name you chose for yourself might, um, not help... :-)

Bob

 

Re: More communication skills references

Posted by tabitha on January 15, 2004, at 6:03:16

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:42:00

This article has some sections that seem relevant to Bob's standards. The first part explains the difference between an observation and an evaluation, and the second tells how to express feelings with I-statements.

http://www.geocities.com/lifeskillspage/CommunicateWell.htm

Here's a book excerpt with exercises on the same concepts. It's a pretty large PDF file.

http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/books/2a_nvc_exercises.pdf

 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them Dr. Bob

Posted by SLS on January 15, 2004, at 8:22:52

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:42:00

> > I just thought that perhaps you were more interested in verbiage than in perception.

> Perception is interesting, I just think it's better not to base administrative decisions on it...

> > So, now, will you answer my questions? :-)

> Maybe having a model of interaction work here would be the primary goal and having it generalize would be a secondary goal? Does that count as an answer?

Absolutely.

:-)

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!

Posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 12:25:34

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:47:15

Dr.Bob You Edit Posts all the time, and claim to care about people's feelings, why are you stuck on not editing the post directed at SD JEFF?

What he chose to call himself is NOT the issue.
You changed the subject
IF you feel the need to leave the offending posts up as a warning to people as to what they may encounter if they choose to join Babble (The only reason I can think of)
Can you not at least asterisk out his NAME? You certainly go through enough other posts with a fine tooth comb editing out the offending *S* 's
and *t*s
Yet you left this one standing out like a Bloody Head. It doesn't matter that thread turned over, it will still show up on the search engines.
Your concerns about people feeling *safe* seem pretty inconsistant when things like this happen.

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!

Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 13:04:01

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 12:25:34

Gabbi, it may be impossible to change a subject line. Dr. Bob's only choice was to delete the entire thread. Honestly, I think that if Jeff requested that the thread be deleted perhaps Dr. Bob should have deleted it. Perhaps he left it up because it showed excellent civility skills on Jeff's part and he wanted to provide a positive example of working things out.

Just a guess.

And Jeff, I seriously doubt that anyone chooses not to post to you because of that thread. Your behavior on it was examplary, as I recall, and it may be more likely to make people want to post to you.

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah

Posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 13:16:42

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 13:04:01

Jeff did request that it be deleted,
and I agree Jeff did show excellent civility skills and I agree with you I thought even more highly of him because of the incident, Regardless no matter what my opinion may be or Dr. Bob's, if safety is a concern than I think Jeff's conditions for feeling *safe* are as important as anyone else's.

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? socialdeviantjeff

Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:59:55

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 15, 2004, at 1:59:40

I think your name has nothing to do with whether or not people chose to post to you. I know that personally I respond to as many posts as I can. And of course I do have favorite posts that I tend to keep returning to, as they are fun to keep going and adding to. Also, your forgiving attitude regarding the post in question shows your wonderful character. I applaud you. I wish I had that amount of self restraint. Could you teach me?

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! gabbix2

Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 17:18:49

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 13:16:42

I didn't say otherwise Gabbi. I said that if Jeff wanted it deleted I thought Dr. Bob should probably delete it.

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah

Posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! gabbix2, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 17:18:49

I was mistaken I think someone else made that request, (about the entire thread being deleted)
I hadn't thought you'd said otherwise though, sorry if I sounded as if I had.

 

Re: :-) (nm) gabbix2

Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 18:46:54

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

 

A different view of safety

Posted by mair on January 15, 2004, at 22:02:24

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

I haven't been around to follow this thread much, but Scott hit on something that's been nagging me for the last several days. I started posting here under a different name in 2000; I don't ever remember Babble being the free for all judy and nikki do. Bob's been issuing PBCs going back at least that far, but to me the atmosphere here has gotten more suffocating as his enforcement has gotten more rigid. There's an awful lot of "safe" ground between a free for all and what we have here.

It's tough always couching this in terms of safety. No one can argue with safety. But I challenge the apparent supposition that more rigid interpretation and more stringent enforcement makes this place safer. My own experience is frankly just the opposite.

What's telling to me is the number of PBCs and blocks which emanate from the admin board. The worst firestorms here don't really arise because of blatant incivility - most of the emotional upheaval seems to arise from the margins - a questionable PBC leads to escalating discussions which invariably polarize the board. Ultimately some people get frustrated over not being heard or not being answered and ultimately say something that makes Bob target them. So the good guys can turn into bad guys pretty easily.

Sometimes I long for the days when there was no admin board to provide us with a forum to hash and rehash ad nauseum every one of Bob's decisions. That being said, I realize that having so many more posters has necessitated more vigilance. What I'm not as clear on is how we got to this stage where it sometimes seems almost impossible to say something that someone might construe as being unsupportive. There is little question in my mind that alot of what now gets sanctioned would at one time (when civility rules were also being enforeced) have been considered to be perfectly acceptable dialogue by everyone on the Board. And the stricter it gets, the more people seem to want Bob to get involved.

In my earliest days here I probably did get stung a little by something someone might have said, but whatever upset I felt from that pales in comparison to the agony of following the sometimes exhaustive arguments about civility and the anguish I feel when posters fall by the wayside (either temporarily or permanently and by choice or by block) who were otherwise nurturing sources of emotional support and who were once unabashed champions of this site.

Mair

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? Karen_kay

Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 16, 2004, at 1:33:57

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:59:55

> I think your name has nothing to do with whether or not people chose to post to you. I know that personally I respond to as many posts as I can. And of course I do have favorite posts that I tend to keep returning to, as they are fun to keep going and adding to. Also, your forgiving attitude regarding the post in question shows your wonderful character. I applaud you. I wish I had that amount of self restraint. Could you teach me?

Thanks, Karen. I've always liked hearing from you. Your posts consistently make me feel better or at least make me think. as far as self restraint goes, it's all nicotine, baby! Besides, It's a lot easier to show restraint and eloquence in text. If I'm called out in person, it's quite different.

As far as the name, I think it's sardonically humorous. I am not very social and I dislike the status quo in general. That makes me a deviant according to "them". My first name is Jeff. Ergo, socialdeviantjeff ;)

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!

Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 16, 2004, at 2:15:48

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

Well... Thanks all. I didn't expect this much activity over my little rant. I really don't remember if I specifically asked for it to be deleted or not. I do recall saying that it would be nice. That aside, all of you people I've interacted with and watched are just great. I've gotten a pick me up when I feel bad. I've also been offered perspective on my issues that I never, ever would have had otherwise and I have been able to balance my outlook a little for that. In my opinion, no amount of money could buy that. I just hope to be able to pay it back or at least forward in the future.

Insofar as safety, I think the systen isn't perfect, (What is?) but it works for the most part. Especially in comparison to some other so-called "support groups".

Note to Dr. Bob:
I didn't think my alias would be a hindrance The way I see it, it's what works for me.

"As far as the name, I think it's sardonically humorous. I am not very social and I dislike the status quo in general. That makes me a deviant according to "them". My first name is Jeff. Ergo, socialdeviantjeff ;)"

Out of curiosity, why was the thread left unaltered? Please keep in mind that I am in no way any longer upset over the whole thing.

 

Re: A different view of safety

Posted by tabitha on January 16, 2004, at 2:23:30

In reply to A different view of safety, posted by mair on January 15, 2004, at 22:02:24

Good points Mair. Since I posted about liking the strict standards I've had second thoughts, and third thoughts. I like the standards in principle, but there sure seems to be an awful lot that isn't working so well in execution.

I'm probably feeling pro-civility lately since Bob invoked the standards to protect me from remarks that I did find hurtful. So I feel 'safe' when the standards seem to be working in my favor.. but I also remember not feeling safe when I was upset about things and needing to be heard yet afraid to speak for fear of getting blocked. I also don't feel safe when people who are part of my support network get blocked. I don't feel safe when it seems there's a revolving door effect from posters getting fed up and leaving, or just scaling back their posting to practically nothing.

I still think it would help a lot for Bob to work harder to educate people about his standards. I think I finally got it about not making accusations and subtle put-downs.. after reading admin and watching blocks for over a year.. and consulting with my therapist.. and researching and looking up outside sources. But maybe I don't really have it. Maybe the standards will change again. Regardless, should it really be so hard to figure out how we're supposed to word things here?

Finally.. I regret saying that people can see blocks and PBCs as a learning experience. Yes they can, in theory. But how many do? Honestly it took me weeks to get over my feelings about being PBC'd.. and I've not yet been blocked. It became a learning experience.. eventually, after a lot of pain and upset. Was that even healthy for me to endure? I don't know. There must be a better way. So many valuable posters have left with hurt feelings over blocks.. or at least that's my interpretation of why they've left. I'm just sorry if it sounded like I was minimizing anyone's feelings.

And about admin.. I said I enjoy the lively discussions. Well sometimes I do, when I'm not emotionally invested in a discussion. But it's still sort of a guilty pleasure, like ogling a car crash. Other times Bob's brief and cryptic replies to my posts drive me nuts. I've had to swear off coming here and posting at all. I earnestly write a post, thinking I'll really be heard and make a difference.. and I usually end up feeling shot down and ignored. Is that me expecting too much, or Bob giving too little? I don't know.

There. That's a more balanced picture.

 

Re: A different view of safety

Posted by gabbix2 on January 16, 2004, at 4:11:11

In reply to A different view of safety, posted by mair on January 15, 2004, at 22:02:24

> It's tough always couching this in terms of safety. No one can argue with safety. But I challenge the apparent supposition that more rigid interpretation and more stringent enforcement makes this place safer. My own experience is frankly just the opposite.

This also has been my experience.
By the time I recieved my third block (my second unfair one) my feelings of safety had vanished. This was compounded by the fact that the post for which I recieved a 9 week block, I'd actually worded in the format of a post written by someone who had not recieved a P.B.C
and who I knew knew the civility rules inside and out.

The post was important to me, I felt other's safety was at risk, however I didn't wish to be flippant or to be blocked. I was.

I don't have a therapist, I don't even have a phone, I couldn't afford it. This place was my support. Yes, we are reminded to have other means of support, and in a perfect world I would have had it. If it weren't for a group of people who got together to offer me other on-line support because of that incident its no exaggeration to say it could have been a dangerous situation.

When I hear people talk about feeling safer
because they are protected from certain words
or because things are somehow more civil even if its not always fair; I wonder how "fairness" can be tossed aside so casually along with the feelings of those people who've left because their feelings of safety were violated because of the inconsistancy.

I too wonder why it has to be an either/or situation.
I've heard reasonable people discuss things without name calling and without having
to refer to intricate ever-changing civility
rules before each post.


Yes my block was certainly a learning experience! Being left without support at one of the lowest points in my life because I misworded something (I'm not even sure that was it) taught me that I would never feel the same way about Babble or Dr. Bob

I'm lucky now, I have different support
and someone I can ask medication questions anytime I want. However I know there are others who are going to be in the same position I was in and I don't want it to happen to anyone else.

"I'm trying my best" just doesn't cut it anymore not when someone can be blocked for 6 months.

 

social jeff

Posted by justyourlaugh on January 16, 2004, at 16:32:03

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? Karen_kay, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 16, 2004, at 1:33:57

your name has never fazed me..and i would never concider "not posting "because of it...
my name is jyl
just your laugh..
there has been a few other jyls here aswell..
it is nice to meet you jeff
:)

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2004, at 4:47:57

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 16, 2004, at 2:15:48

> I've gotten a pick me up when I feel bad. I've also been offered perspective on my issues that I never, ever would have had otherwise and I have been able to balance my outlook a little for that. In my opinion, no amount of money could buy that.

That sounds positive! :-)

> Out of curiosity, why was the thread left unaltered?

My explanation:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/293111.html

Bob

 

Re: A different view of safety

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2004, at 5:04:32

In reply to Re: A different view of safety, posted by tabitha on January 16, 2004, at 2:23:30

> What's telling to me is the number of PBCs and blocks which emanate from the admin board... a questionable PBC leads to escalating discussions... Ultimately some people get frustrated over not being heard or not being answered and ultimately say something that makes Bob target them.

I think PBA is different. It's the only board that doesn't have support as a mission. It's also where I post the most myself. But I don't think that means things *have* to escalate... Madwand mentioned the Jungian Shadow:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/282737.html

Maybe PBA is the Shadow of this site?

> to me the atmosphere here has gotten more suffocating as his enforcement has gotten more rigid.
>
> I realize that having so many more posters has necessitated more vigilance.

Shar said it's like this used to be a small town and now it's a big city:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/300467.html

I agree and think "law enforcement" has had to adapt...

So maybe we should try boards limited in "population"?

> whatever upset I felt from that pales in comparison to ... the anguish I feel when posters fall by the wayside ... who were otherwise nurturing sources of emotional support and who were once unabashed champions of this site.
>
> Mair

That makes me sad, too, I wish there were a way to keep that from happening.

--

> I still think it would help a lot for Bob to work harder to educate people about his standards. I think I finally got it about not making accusations and subtle put-downs.. after reading admin and watching blocks for over a year.. and consulting with my therapist.. and researching and looking up outside sources.

I thought maybe I'd try reminding posters if I PBC them that they can post here to ask for more of an explanation or for suggestions on alternative ways to express themselves. Maybe then you could help "educate" them, too?

> I regret saying that people can see blocks and PBCs as a learning experience. Yes they can, in theory. But how many do? Honestly it took me weeks to get over my feelings about being PBC'd.. and I've not yet been blocked. It became a learning experience.. eventually, after a lot of pain and upset.
>
> tabitha

Some things take time to learn? Or to unlearn? Thanks for working so hard on it.

Bob

 

Re: A different view of safety Dr. Bob

Posted by tabitha on January 17, 2004, at 5:20:39

In reply to Re: A different view of safety, posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2004, at 5:04:32

> I thought maybe I'd try reminding posters if I PBC them that they can post here to ask for more of an explanation or for suggestions on alternative ways to express themselves.

Sounds like a useful hint.

> Maybe then you could help "educate" them, too?

Interesting idea...


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