Psycho-Babble Administration Thread 300134

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Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? SLS

Posted by judy1 on January 13, 2004, at 13:27:50

In reply to Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by SLS on January 13, 2004, at 9:17:44

Hi Scott,
I'm going to agree with Nikki, I feel much safer with the rules that are in place now then the free-for-all a few years ago. I think that was Dr. Bob's expressed purpose for putting them in place, but I may be wrong. I guess we'll have to see what he says...
take care, judy

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?

Posted by SLS on January 13, 2004, at 15:08:02

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? SLS, posted by NikkiT2 on January 13, 2004, at 12:37:46

Hmmm.

I agree with you. I am convinced that enforcing a civility policy has been to the betterment of the board and has promoted a sense of safety. I really do appreciate it. However, I somehow feel strangled by the number of PBCs and posting blocks that have been levied here recently. That makes me feel less safe to interact with people, especially when there is conflict. I'm afraid that I might say something that would end up being judged as an infraction for which I have no clue what I did wrong, despite the offending verbiage being quoted by the doctor. Right now, I feel that Dr. Bob is being too stringent, too inflexible, and too picayune in his enforcement of civility. Too many people have been blocked for too little cause in my opinion. When good people leave here for writing things that need to be scrutinized by an English professor in order to find fault with, I think that is asking too much.

I want this board to me moderated by Dr. Bob Hsiung, but something feels very wrong to me right now. It scares me.


- Scott

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?

Posted by tealady on January 13, 2004, at 18:38:21

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? SLS, posted by NikkiT2 on January 13, 2004, at 12:37:46

Nikki,
>So, do you think these people that don't feel safe here would prefer it to go back to free for all attacks?

That is the whole point most here seem to be missing. It is not an either/or question. I have never and would never suggest an unmoderated forum..although I think my suggestion was taken that way by some.
There are many other methods of moderating forums.
This is the only forum I have come across which uses these blocks..and the one has made me feel the most "unsafe" too actually.
I personally prefer the usual method of moderating....edit language where minor..delete posts where major offensive or abusive language used...warn posters if they step out of line ..delete whole threads were the posters "lose it"..after calling into line.
Allow other posters to "self-moderate" the forums to a certain extent..as Larry (and I too sometimes) have tried to do here...as the job is too big for just one person. Posters should contact the(a) moderator where they feel things are getting out of hand..and intervention should be relatively prompt.
Some forums have moderators in various parts of the world to allow this..but its not always perfect as noone can spend all their time on the net...(did I say that?)
Some forums have different levels of posters where long serving respected valuable posters get some kinda status ..which gives newbies an idea of who they can "believe"..as well as allowing those posters to conduct some kinda unofficial self-moderation..as people listen to them and respect them. Sometimes this is done officially (like with levels displayed)..in other forums it has evolved completely unofficially. ..like a forum I post on sometimes has a group called "mavens"...apparently not a derogatory term in the US <g>.
I am not suggesting this be done..just putting forward other ways forums cope with moderation.
Allowing criticism or questioning may mean others may feel put down occassionally as they face criticism.(hopefully made as tactful as possible)..but they can defend themselves. It also , IMO, is NOT anywhere near as big a putdwon as a "block".
Most of the problems I have seen happen is when sometimes a moderator him/herself is having problems with medication reactions/ stress/ overload etc..but this seems to be obvious to most forums members and most jump in and help the moderator as well....too much tryosine is one example I can think of.

I know not everyone can express themselves in writing equally..not one of my strengths either unfortunately...
There has to be guidelines which all posters must try to keep within...anyone stepping way out of line gets blocked (short block) and their post deleted..and if persistently out of line..or ,if major offense..blocked for a long period, or even just banned outright.
This system seems to work well on most forums...
This is NOT the same as unmoderated at all.

Forums hosted in the US are fortunate in that the forum owner (I think?) can't be blamed legally for any posts made...I think this is the case as I was involved in one forum (not medical) in Oz where the owner was jailed for 3 months officially due to an incorrect post ..not even his (although there is much more to the story than that). That site moved to a US hosted forum to be safer for all involved.
There are also cases of posters being sued in Oz hosted forums for statements or comments they make,sometimes ..again not medical forums...
I'm only stating this as perhaps some of my questions earlier and concerns may make more sense given this background.
In summary I am just trying to point out that no blocks does not mean no moderation.
Jan

 

Re: The Net is a wondrous place

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 19:29:05

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by tealady on January 13, 2004, at 18:38:21

There's someplace that suits just about everyone. I've found Babble, and Dr. Bob, to suit me admirably, so I stay.

 

The Net is a very different place Dinah

Posted by tealady on January 13, 2004, at 20:34:41

In reply to Re: The Net is a wondrous place, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 19:29:05

> There's someplace that suits just about everyone. I've found Babble, and Dr. Bob, to suit me admirably, so I stay.

Dinah,
I hope I have not implied in any way that I do not respect Dr Bob (or you) or the work he has put into this site. I do understand the responsibility and time involved.
Me, ... I'm mixed up, confused, an emotional anxious mess and need a longer break though I have been helped a lot from the alter board posters especially Larry, but also many other posters ..like DSCH, Ron, Jlx, TJ, well most of the alter regulars..thanks for your support and help guys.
Sorry not meaning to leave anyone out..just count yourself in OK?

Jan


 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2004, at 21:02:35

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by tealady on January 13, 2004, at 18:38:21

> Perhaps safety is served well by the policies practiced here, but that doesn't require that it be the primary goal. Perhaps there are multiple goals.

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but you referred to one possible secondary goal before:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/298045.html

Were there others you were wondering about?

> I somehow feel strangled by the number of PBCs and posting blocks that have been levied here recently... I feel that Dr. Bob is being too stringent, too inflexible, and too picayune in his enforcement of civility.
>
> - Scott

I do think I get more stringent, etc., when things get more heated...

----

> There are many other methods of moderating forums.

I think it would be interesting to compare methods of moderating. What would be the different variables?

> Some forums have different levels of posters where long serving respected valuable posters get some kinda status ..
>
> Jan

Something like that came up before, and wasn't very popular...

Bob

 

Re: other moderating styles

Posted by tabitha on January 13, 2004, at 23:01:34

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2004, at 21:02:35

I've seen forums where every heated thread gets locked and/or deleted. I've seen forums where you're not allowed to talk about each other at all-- you strictly have to talk about the topic. I've seen forums where personal attacks are allowed as long as they don't get too terribly flaming.

Personally I enjoy the unique features of Bob's moderating here. I like the out-in-the-open warnings and blocks, and the lively discussions about them. I know it's tempting to see PBCs and blocks as public humiliation and punishment by an impersonal authority figure, but it can also be seen as a learning experience. I've grown to appreciate the strict civility standards here. Bob advocates a sort of radically non-violent communication style. I like the idea that you can't attack someone, even if you're convinced they deserve it, or that doing so will make you feel better, or will make someone else feel better, or will force the 'offender' to become a better person. We *are* allowed to state our hurt or angry feelings toward another in a conflict, but without going into judging and labelling them. I think those are good rules, even though they've not always been easy for me to follow.

 

Re: other moderating styles tabitha

Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 5:37:34

In reply to Re: other moderating styles, posted by tabitha on January 13, 2004, at 23:01:34

I completely agree with you. I like it that Bob makes everyone *have* to be civil to one another. I also like it that he doesn't allow cuss words. I never liked the sound of cuss words, so I really doubt I would like reading them much either. To me, it feels safe here. I know that if someone hurts my feelings, it's likely that they will get in trouble for it. And, it helps keep me in check too. I have learned a lot about communicating on these boards, and how to do it effectively without being rude or uncivil.
Elle

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? tealady

Posted by NikkiT2 on January 14, 2004, at 6:15:55

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by tealady on January 13, 2004, at 18:38:21

Over the past 9 or 10 years (I was 19 when I first got on line, I've just turned 29, so coming up to 10 years I guess!) I've been online, I have probably been part of, ooh, a hundred or so forums.

Over the years, and through experience, I now only post at about 5. I post at the 5 where I feel safest from other posters.

Un moderated sites are NOT safe what so ever in my eyes. I moderated site I used, that the "managers" went AWOL from so it became un moderated.. I was suffering daily attacks there, hourly attacks, with personal info about myself being posted.

The thing that ahs kept me at PB for 5 years has been a) the lovely people I have become so close to. and b) the moderating style.

Now, I'm not saying Dr Bobs moderating is prefect. No one on earth is perfect. Its some times over heavy handed, its sometimes a bit wierd.. But all in all, when I weigh up the last 5 years, he keeps us safe from attacks, and will stand up for us if we are attacked.

I take safety from attacks over being blocked. Yes, I ahve been blocked, and *every* single time I've received a PBC or block I have known full well it was coming, and had decided what I wanted to say was more important to me than being blocked.

Nikki

 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them Dr. Bob

Posted by SLS on January 14, 2004, at 8:33:48

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2004, at 21:02:35

Hi Doctor.

> > > What are you trying to achieve by exercising your civility rules? > > > > What is the goal?
> > >
> > > How do you think it is going so far?


> > Perhaps safety is served well by the policies practiced here, but that doesn't require that it be the primary goal. Perhaps there are multiple goals.


> Sorry to answer a question with a question, but you referred to one possible secondary goal before:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/298045.html
>
> Were there others you were wondering about?


Nothing nefarious. I just thought that perhaps you were more interested in verbiage than in perception. I guess I'm still upset at you for blocking Larry Hoover. I really didn't think he deserved it. I'll go back and take another look at it, though. Maybe there is some sort of psychological model of interaction that is being enforced as an experiment or simply as a philosophy. I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd ask.

The post of mine that you cited was actually a genuine propositon rather than an accusation.

So, now, will you answer my questions? :-)

And another question. Is there some sort of published guideline to civil communication or prescriptive model of interaction that you refer to? Curious minds want to know... (at least mine does).


- Scott

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?

Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 15, 2004, at 1:59:40

In reply to Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by SLS on January 13, 2004, at 9:17:44

IMNSHO, Some of the PBC's and blocks are off balance in terms of fairness. I know, I was on the butt end of a particularily nasty attack for which I had no fault. Not that I really blame the guy, and we did sort it out later. (thanks to all that supported me, you know who you are) The problem is that the language was not altered, or the thread was not removed altogether. I feel it may have caused some people to not want to post with me.

That aside, I do agree with most everyone here that this forum is altogether quite safe on average. I've lurked a lot of other forums and most of them are all out slugfests.

 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:42:00

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on January 14, 2004, at 8:33:48

> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/298045.html
>
> [that] was actually a genuine propositon...

That's how I took it...

> I just thought that perhaps you were more interested in verbiage than in perception.

Perception is interesting, I just think it's better not to base administrative decisions on it...

> Maybe there is some sort of psychological model of interaction that is being enforced as an experiment or simply as a philosophy. I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd ask.
>
> So, now, will you answer my questions? :-)

Well, this whole thing is kind of an experiment, you know. Trying to develop a supportive online community, I mean...

For people to feel supported, they need at least to feel safe. For people to feel safe, limits need to be set. Specific limits imply a specific "model of interaction".

Maybe having a model of interaction work here would be the primary goal and having it generalize would be a secondary goal? Does that count as an answer?

> Is there some sort of published guideline to civil communication or prescriptive model of interaction that you refer to?

Not really, but there's a link in the FAQ, but the original seems to be gone, but Shar thoughtfully saved a copy:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020715/msgs/521.html

> I guess I'm still upset at you for blocking Larry Hoover.

I'm sorry that happened, too.

Bob

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me

Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:47:15

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 15, 2004, at 1:59:40

> I was on the butt end of a particularily nasty attack for which I had no fault. Not that I really blame the guy, and we did sort it out later.

Sorry again about that, and thanks for sorting it out...

> I feel it may have caused some people to not want to post with me.

I hope that's not the case. The posting name you chose for yourself might, um, not help... :-)

Bob

 

Re: More communication skills references

Posted by tabitha on January 15, 2004, at 6:03:16

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:42:00

This article has some sections that seem relevant to Bob's standards. The first part explains the difference between an observation and an evaluation, and the second tells how to express feelings with I-statements.

http://www.geocities.com/lifeskillspage/CommunicateWell.htm

Here's a book excerpt with exercises on the same concepts. It's a pretty large PDF file.

http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/books/2a_nvc_exercises.pdf

 

Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them Dr. Bob

Posted by SLS on January 15, 2004, at 8:22:52

In reply to Re: goals -- and how to try to achieve them, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:42:00

> > I just thought that perhaps you were more interested in verbiage than in perception.

> Perception is interesting, I just think it's better not to base administrative decisions on it...

> > So, now, will you answer my questions? :-)

> Maybe having a model of interaction work here would be the primary goal and having it generalize would be a secondary goal? Does that count as an answer?

Absolutely.

:-)

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!

Posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 12:25:34

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2004, at 4:47:15

Dr.Bob You Edit Posts all the time, and claim to care about people's feelings, why are you stuck on not editing the post directed at SD JEFF?

What he chose to call himself is NOT the issue.
You changed the subject
IF you feel the need to leave the offending posts up as a warning to people as to what they may encounter if they choose to join Babble (The only reason I can think of)
Can you not at least asterisk out his NAME? You certainly go through enough other posts with a fine tooth comb editing out the offending *S* 's
and *t*s
Yet you left this one standing out like a Bloody Head. It doesn't matter that thread turned over, it will still show up on the search engines.
Your concerns about people feeling *safe* seem pretty inconsistant when things like this happen.

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!

Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 13:04:01

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 12:25:34

Gabbi, it may be impossible to change a subject line. Dr. Bob's only choice was to delete the entire thread. Honestly, I think that if Jeff requested that the thread be deleted perhaps Dr. Bob should have deleted it. Perhaps he left it up because it showed excellent civility skills on Jeff's part and he wanted to provide a positive example of working things out.

Just a guess.

And Jeff, I seriously doubt that anyone chooses not to post to you because of that thread. Your behavior on it was examplary, as I recall, and it may be more likely to make people want to post to you.

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah

Posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 13:16:42

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 13:04:01

Jeff did request that it be deleted,
and I agree Jeff did show excellent civility skills and I agree with you I thought even more highly of him because of the incident, Regardless no matter what my opinion may be or Dr. Bob's, if safety is a concern than I think Jeff's conditions for feeling *safe* are as important as anyone else's.

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? socialdeviantjeff

Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:59:55

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal?, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 15, 2004, at 1:59:40

I think your name has nothing to do with whether or not people chose to post to you. I know that personally I respond to as many posts as I can. And of course I do have favorite posts that I tend to keep returning to, as they are fun to keep going and adding to. Also, your forgiving attitude regarding the post in question shows your wonderful character. I applaud you. I wish I had that amount of self restraint. Could you teach me?

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! gabbix2

Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 17:18:49

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 13:16:42

I didn't say otherwise Gabbi. I said that if Jeff wanted it deleted I thought Dr. Bob should probably delete it.

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah

Posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! gabbix2, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 17:18:49

I was mistaken I think someone else made that request, (about the entire thread being deleted)
I hadn't thought you'd said otherwise though, sorry if I sounded as if I had.

 

Re: :-) (nm) gabbix2

Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 18:46:54

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

 

A different view of safety

Posted by mair on January 15, 2004, at 22:02:24

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

I haven't been around to follow this thread much, but Scott hit on something that's been nagging me for the last several days. I started posting here under a different name in 2000; I don't ever remember Babble being the free for all judy and nikki do. Bob's been issuing PBCs going back at least that far, but to me the atmosphere here has gotten more suffocating as his enforcement has gotten more rigid. There's an awful lot of "safe" ground between a free for all and what we have here.

It's tough always couching this in terms of safety. No one can argue with safety. But I challenge the apparent supposition that more rigid interpretation and more stringent enforcement makes this place safer. My own experience is frankly just the opposite.

What's telling to me is the number of PBCs and blocks which emanate from the admin board. The worst firestorms here don't really arise because of blatant incivility - most of the emotional upheaval seems to arise from the margins - a questionable PBC leads to escalating discussions which invariably polarize the board. Ultimately some people get frustrated over not being heard or not being answered and ultimately say something that makes Bob target them. So the good guys can turn into bad guys pretty easily.

Sometimes I long for the days when there was no admin board to provide us with a forum to hash and rehash ad nauseum every one of Bob's decisions. That being said, I realize that having so many more posters has necessitated more vigilance. What I'm not as clear on is how we got to this stage where it sometimes seems almost impossible to say something that someone might construe as being unsupportive. There is little question in my mind that alot of what now gets sanctioned would at one time (when civility rules were also being enforeced) have been considered to be perfectly acceptable dialogue by everyone on the Board. And the stricter it gets, the more people seem to want Bob to get involved.

In my earliest days here I probably did get stung a little by something someone might have said, but whatever upset I felt from that pales in comparison to the agony of following the sometimes exhaustive arguments about civility and the anguish I feel when posters fall by the wayside (either temporarily or permanently and by choice or by block) who were otherwise nurturing sources of emotional support and who were once unabashed champions of this site.

Mair

 

Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? Karen_kay

Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 16, 2004, at 1:33:57

In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - What is your goal? socialdeviantjeff, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:59:55

> I think your name has nothing to do with whether or not people chose to post to you. I know that personally I respond to as many posts as I can. And of course I do have favorite posts that I tend to keep returning to, as they are fun to keep going and adding to. Also, your forgiving attitude regarding the post in question shows your wonderful character. I applaud you. I wish I had that amount of self restraint. Could you teach me?

Thanks, Karen. I've always liked hearing from you. Your posts consistently make me feel better or at least make me think. as far as self restraint goes, it's all nicotine, baby! Besides, It's a lot easier to show restraint and eloquence in text. If I'm called out in person, it's quite different.

As far as the name, I think it's sardonically humorous. I am not very social and I dislike the status quo in general. That makes me a deviant according to "them". My first name is Jeff. Ergo, socialdeviantjeff ;)

 

Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!!

Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 16, 2004, at 2:15:48

In reply to Re: people not wanting to post with me.. Dr Bob!! Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on January 15, 2004, at 17:31:46

Well... Thanks all. I didn't expect this much activity over my little rant. I really don't remember if I specifically asked for it to be deleted or not. I do recall saying that it would be nice. That aside, all of you people I've interacted with and watched are just great. I've gotten a pick me up when I feel bad. I've also been offered perspective on my issues that I never, ever would have had otherwise and I have been able to balance my outlook a little for that. In my opinion, no amount of money could buy that. I just hope to be able to pay it back or at least forward in the future.

Insofar as safety, I think the systen isn't perfect, (What is?) but it works for the most part. Especially in comparison to some other so-called "support groups".

Note to Dr. Bob:
I didn't think my alias would be a hindrance The way I see it, it's what works for me.

"As far as the name, I think it's sardonically humorous. I am not very social and I dislike the status quo in general. That makes me a deviant according to "them". My first name is Jeff. Ergo, socialdeviantjeff ;)"

Out of curiosity, why was the thread left unaltered? Please keep in mind that I am in no way any longer upset over the whole thing.


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