Psycho-Babble Administration Thread 7713

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Re: clarification for Nikki Lou Pilder

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 24, 2002, at 21:35:22

In reply to Re: clarification for Nikki NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 21:31:32

Lou.. this is the last for tonight as I must get to bed.

I know its OK to say I don't believe in god, but it would not be ok for me to say "A fool, in their heart, believes in god". That would be suggesting that those who do believe are fools.

Do you see the difference?

Nikki

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 1:30:13

In reply to I bow rather gracelessly out...., posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 11:24:07

> Lou asked if he could say "the Rider said to me, "You shall have no other Gods before me"," and Dr. Bob says that is not OK, nor would it be OK to quote any particular scripture that states that only one God or one belief should be embraced, even if there is no insult implied to anyone else who follows a different belief.

To say that one belief should be embraced is to say that others should not. Which puts down those other beliefs. I think it's more civil not to tell others what to believe.

As a general guideline. There may, however, be exceptions, depending on the context, etc.

> So is it true that you could not say "The New Testament says that you should have faith in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour" or "The Koran teaches that there is no God but God".

A discussion of what different faiths teach would be a good example of such an exception. For one thing, various points of view would be represented, so there wouldn't be any implication that any one road was the only "right" one.

> Hmm, kind of does away completely with the idea of the faith board.

I think it should be possible to discuss faith respectfully. It's worth a try, at least...

> So one couldn't quote the first commandment, even if one was an atheist?

Telling people what to do is different than telling them what to believe -- but can be tricky, too. And would depend partly on what it was that people were being told to do.

> Is it so different than someone saying "My doctor told me that no one should ever prescribe antidepressants for an anxiety disorder?" Would that be a put down to anyone who is using antidepressants for an anxiety disorder?

Another factor might be the likelihood of reaching a compromise. After discussion of evidence, etc.

> So if I were to say, "I was reading the Bible one day, and I read "I am the Lord thy God, and thou shalt have no gods before me" and I was really struck by that passage and decided to adopt that as my belief." would that or wouldn't that be allowed.
>
> If I were to say "I was reading the Bible one day and I read "I am the Lord thy God, and thou shalt have no gods before me" and I don't really believe that because I am a nature worshipper" would that or wouldn't that be allowed.

It would depend partly on the context, but would the quote really be necessary? Why not just "I was reading the Bible one day, and I was really struck by a passage and decided to have no gods before Him" or "I was reading the Bible one day and didn't really believe all of that because I am a nature worshipper"?

> After all, we are allowed to quote other literature, or tell our experiences with people other than the Rider freely.

Well, not totally freely... There was that quote from Apocalypse Now, for example...

> Could I say that my mother told me I should believe in Jesus? Would it matter whether I was saying it in a positive or negative way?

Maybe just say she taught you to believe in Jesus?

> Talk about slippery slopes, Dr. Bob. You're standing at the top of the peak with slopes to each side of you. :)

1. If there are slopes to each side, then there's balance, which is good.
2. So I don't have to climb any farther? :-)

> The very nature of faith is that if you believe in one thing (including agnosticism or atheism) that you don't believe in other things.

Yes. And it's fine to talk about what you believe -- as long as you don't put down other beliefs.

Sorry about having vacillated on this. I think the questions you and IsoM asked really helped me clarify my thinking on this, thank you. I know I'm not perfect, but I do try to be open to feedback and to do what I think will be good for this community as a whole. Thanks for your patience,

Bob

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 5:42:48

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 1:30:13

So... its not OK to say "You should only have one god", but it IS ok to say "I feel I should only have one god"...???

Its all soooo confusing!!!

Nikki

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 6:44:42

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 1:30:13

Dr. Bob,
You wrote that ["to say one beleife should be embraced is to say that others should not. Which puts down these other beliefs.] I think that it is more civil not to tell others what to believe."
Are you saying, by implication, that I said that my belief in Judaism is the one religion that should be embraced? Are you saying that I told others what to believe? If you are, please do not use these type of tactics . They are uncivil for you are implying that what I said means that and I consider that for you to be jumping to a conclusion which is uncivil just as you have in the past accused others of here. I never said that, and there is no implication for you to see here any more than if I, or anyone else here, wanted to say, my God said, "You shall not commit any murder." Or, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
I wrote that I wanted to tell of my experiance where the Rider, who is the Word of God in my experiance , said to me, "You shall have no other Gods before me." Please be accurate, for I never said what you are saying that I said, anymore than the Christian person said that they believe in the father , the son, and the holy ghost and that she is Catholic would mean that there is an implication that others should be Catholic.
Are you sayig that if I post the post in discussion here that you will accuse me of putting down Christian people or athiests, or poytheists or other religions?
If so, could you give me your descriminating rational for not accusing the poster that said [that Jesus became our salvation to All Those That Believe]? There is an implication here that you must believe to be saved, and that you must believe in Jesus to be saved also.And that you also Must Obey Jesus to be saved. This pharse has been used for almost 2000 years to arrouse bad feelings to the jews and others that do not beleive that you must obey the Christiandom's Jesus, throughout the world, for the implication is obvious here that obediance to Jesus is a requirrment for salvation and Jews do not include the Jesus of Christiandom to be requirered to obey in relation to their salvation. That is the plainly visible implication which obviously puts down all other religions that do not obey Jesus. If there is a post on this board that implies that you must be a particular religion, I would say that a reasonable man would think that it is this statement by the Christian person and not a statement that the Jewish poster's God told them not to have other Gods Before Him. I never said that other's salvation was connected with that. The Christian poster did imply that. Are you saying that you have a descrimintory rational that defines the Christian poster's "imply" as different from other "implys"? If you do, could you clarify that rational for me? If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your descrimintory rational and be better able to post here to accomodate your rational.
I am not ashamed to want to have equal opportunity to post here, and I am asking you to clarify the difference between the Christiandom's people's posts and my post that I want to post in the future . Their posts tell of their foundation to obey Jesus for salvation. You did not restrain that post. I never even implied such a thing when I wanted to post the foundation of my Jewish faith , to me,which is that I shall not have other Gods before Him. Yet you are going to restrain me to post that and accuse me of disrespecting others and not restrain the Christiandom people here from writing that Jesus became our salvation to all those that Obey Him?
Could you clarify what your rational is for that so that I can better undestand the implication that you are promulgating here? If you could, then I could better understand how Christian posters can post their foundation of their faith, that is to obey Jesus, and why I can not tell of the foundation of my Jewish faith without being accused of disrespect to others and not being accused by you of putting down others because I post the foundation of Judaism and the Christian foundation of their religon is not restrained or accused by you of putting down others or disrespect to others?
Lou Pilder

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 7:05:44

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob, posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 5:42:48

Nikki,
Thank you for your continued interest in this discussion.
As to what is OK here or not OK is relevant to this discussion andI appreciate your concern, for that is why I am asking for clarification from the administration here.
Nikki, cold I ak you to give your feelings about whether a post would be OK or not OK to you? If you could give me your thoughts about it, I would appreciate it for I beleve that you are guenuionally interested in this discussion and I welcomethat.
The question is, would you consider the following post OK or not OK and why?:
...and God said to Adam and Eve that if you eat of the fruit of the tree of he knowledge of good and evil you shall die...
Also, ...you must pay taxes...
Lou

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 7:39:16

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 7:05:44

Hi Lou,

Yes, i am very intersted in this.. its got my mind working for the first time in ages!!! And, though I may not believe in god, I do have a theological interest in many religions.

In my, humble, opinion, the line you posted is OK by me. It does not say that *I* will die if I eat the forbidden fruit, just that Adam and Eve would. It doesn't imply that I should, or must, do something to be a better person. If it said "...and God said to YOU that if YOU eat of the fruit of the tree of he knowledge of good and evil YOU shall die..." I wouldn't be comfortable with it, but the original clearly states that god is talking to a specific person.

I hope I making sense...

Nikki

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 7:59:45

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 7:39:16

Nikki,
Thank you for your insight that you have given us reletive to your understnding of this discussion.
Then would you also say that if I said that the Rider said to ME, "you shall have no other Gods before me", would you consider that OK or not OK?
Also, you say that you maynot beleive in God. Are you saying that you do not beleive, or [you do not beleive in your heart that ther is no God?]
I am aking you becausethere is a great diference to me in the two phrases and I could better communicate with you if I knew which one you mean.
Lou

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 8:09:02

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 7:59:45

As long as you made it very clear the rider was talking to you, and you alone, I think it should be OK.. but thats hard to say. It does make it sound like you are preaching somewhat that others should also only follow one god, but with the other comments that have been allowed to pass, I think you should be allowed to say this.

As to my beliefs... well, I don;t think I believe in god at all.. I believe in Jesus and I believe in a powerful entity, but I don't believe in one person or creation etc. So I gues sits not just in my heart that I don't believe, but in my head also.

hope thats cleared that up!!

This is very difficult, to find the right balance between saying what you believe, and sounding like you believe everyone should follow your chosen path.

nikki

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 8:20:19

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 1:30:13

Are you telling me that you will deem what is [necessary] in my statement that my God says to ME that I should have no other Gods before me? I am asking you to clarify you rational that allows Christians to say that Jesus became their salvation to those that [obey Him] and why they are not told that it is not necessary to say the obey Him part, yet are you saying that it is not necessary for a Jew to say that their God says that they shall have no other Gods before them?
If you could clarify this, then I could have abetter understanding of your ratonal here and then determine if that rational is arbitrary or caprecious or descriminatory and reply accordingly.
Lou

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 8:33:00

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 8:09:02

Nikki,
Thank you for your support for it is plainly visible to me that myself and the other posters are not telling others that they have to believe in their God. It is plainly visible that the Rider spoke to me and the people in my group, not to the people on this board for it has already been declared that I am recounting MY experiance only and I am not telling anyone in anyway anything otherwise. And niether are the Christians and the Zen and the Greek mythology people. They just say that it s what they beleive, and so am I saying that it is what I believe. The Christian that says she believes in the father , the son and the holy ghost is what her faith is founded on. My faith is founded on that I sould have one God and no others before him. To allow the Christians and not me to say the foundation of our religion is the topic of discussion her. Do you beleive that the Christians can say on this board that [Jesus became their salvation for all those that Obey Him] and I can [not] say that my God says that I shall obey him in respect to not having other Gods befor Him? If so, could you clarify your rational ?
Lou

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 8:49:50

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 1:30:13

Dr. Bob,
You citedthe quote from the Movie Apokolypse Now as being not being able to be said.
It is my understanding that it was not that the quote could not be said that was the topic of the discussion, but that the [source] of the quote was not given and that was the concern.
Could you clarify if you are saying that
1)the quote could not be made
or
2) the source of the quote was to be given in order to identify it for discussion?
Lou Pilder

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 9:27:39

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 8:33:00

Lou,

I think you have to treat us all as idiots, and make it clear in EACH post that it is not a general you, but you as in Lou that the rider is talking to.

Remember we have newbies join here all the time and they may not know all the history to your posts.

Maybe using wording such as "and the rider said "Lou, you shall have no other god etc""...

I really don't think any of this is anti-semetic, or against you per se.

Nikki

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:20:32

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 8:33:00

> So... its not OK to say "You should only have one god", but it IS ok to say "I feel I should only have one god"...???

That's the idea, yes.

> Its all soooo confusing!!!

> This is very difficult, to find the right balance between saying what you believe, and sounding like you believe everyone should follow your chosen path.
>
> nikki

You're not confused at all, you've seen the crux of the issue. :-)

> The Christian that says she believes in the father , the son and the holy ghost is what her faith is founded on. My faith is founded on that I sould have one God and no others before him.
>
> Lou

1. In general, these would be OK:

I feel I should believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
I feel I should have one God and no others before him.

I believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
I have one God and no others before him.

People of my faith believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
People of my faith have one God and no others before him.

And these wouldn't:

People should believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
People should have one God and no others before him.

My faith says people should believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
My faith says people should have one God and no others before him.

My faith says I should believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
My faith says I should have one God and no others before him.

2. A primary goal of this site is to be supportive. If the foundation of a faith puts down those of other faiths, it's not in my view supportive, so as a general rule, I'd rather it were discussed elsewhere.

Bob

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2002, at 11:29:30

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:20:32

Thanks, Dr. Bob.

That's the sort of clarity (complete with examples) that makes posting a lot easier.

Dinah

 

Re: discussion on a internet board

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:32:30

In reply to Re: I bow rather GRACEFULLY out.... Dinah, posted by IsoM on October 24, 2002, at 12:35:47

> Exactly why I said that a person's beliefs (or lack of beliefs) aren't discussed easily on a internet board. It soon ends up enbroiled in a mess. It'll either degenerate into a free-for-all, with poster attacking poster for what the other will consider "hogwash", or like here, so many rules & restrictions that what one sis trying to say becomes watered down.

I agree that it's not easy, but I don't think it's impossible. There may not be face-to-face feedback, but it may be possible to compensate for that by explicitly asking for feedback in words. "Was that clear?" "Did you feel put down by that?" Etc.

Watering things down has negative connotations, but sometimes people prefer them that way, for example:

http://www.webtender.com/db/drink/787

:-)

Bob

 

Re: discussion on a internet board Dr. Bob

Posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 25, 2002, at 12:09:13

In reply to Re: discussion on a internet board, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:32:30


Hey Bob...that got a craving in the pit of my stomache but I'm firmly strapped to the wagon . Can't understand why anyone would spoil a Scotch by adding water and ice.

Resume Administration....

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 13:21:56

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:20:32

Dr. bob,
Are you saying that by me posting that my God told me tthat I should have no other Gods before Him, that I would be putting others down?
If so, could you clarify how, if possible, the statement by another poster:
[Jesus became our salvation to those that obey him]
as to why that statement is not restrained, and I will be restrained from posting the post of mine in question here?
I have examined your post about what is and what is not OK and I am asking you to clarify this question for I did not see a clear rational in your list that gives the other's post acceptance, and that you will restrain my post.
If you could give me your rational for the one being OK and the other not Ok, then I can examine it and see if your answer is acceptable in regards to it establishing two different standards for the acceptance of one and restraining the other.
Lou Pilder

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 14:40:03

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:20:32

Dr. Bob,
You wrote that the primary goal of this site is to be supportive.
Are you saying that if I post that my God told me that I shall have no other Gods before me that you would deem that post to be (not) supportive? It is my understanding that the faith board was established by you to share what worked for us reletive to our faith. A reasonable person could conclude that you mean that they could tell of their experiance(es) with their faith that worked for them and that there could be the potential for their experiance that they are sharing to help others, which , to me, means support.
Then the other question I would have, if you are going to say that the post in question of mine here would be not-supportive, is then what is your rational for saying that the poster that said[Jesus became our salvation for those that Obey Him] would be supportive and my post not supportive? Or, better, what is your rational for being supportive? Is it that someone writes that they were able to sleep better for example after reading someone's post, or something like that? Or is it defined by the object associated with the word "support". To use the word "support", in my limited english language knowlege, means to me that something has to be supportED. To carry this to its logical path, are you saying that someone is non-supportive if they do not accept the post that Jesus became our salvation to those that Obey Him? I would like for you to clarify this so that I can have a better understanding of your rational that you use to determine if a post is suppotive or non-supportive so that I can post better to accomodate your rational. If you could clarify why one is supportive and the other will be non-supportive, then I could review your rational and determine if it arbitrary, or caprecious, or descriminatory and if so, we could have further discussion about your rational. As of now, it appears to me that the post that says that Jesus became our salvation to those that obey Him is glaringly opposit to your principle of "support". For it has been your past-practice, as I have seen it, that this post about Jesus is disrespectfull to others because of the implication that the word "obey" is connected to Jesus and Jesus is stated to be "our salvation" and it could be easily construed to have the potential for a reasonable man, to think that they are being put down because they do not obey, or even believe in Jesus. I feel that there is much more potential for someone to feel disrepected after reading that post than if they read the post that I want to post.
Now I do not feel disrespected by the poster posting that her Jesus became her salvation for those that Obey Him. I kind of like that. For she is saying that her faith is good for her and thearfore has the potential for others to go out and find out about her Jesus and be saved by Obeying Him as she wrote. That would be wonderfulll and I would hope that others find the kind of help that she has had in her faith. I wish that evrybodty could have a wonderfull faith like she is desribing. I find no fault with Jesus. I am not telling others to be jewish, I am only telling my experiance here because since it worked for me, it has the potential to work for others. But others might not like to hear that. They could be easily offended. But isn't that the primary goal of the faith board, to tell of their faith so that others will have the potential to have what worked for them be shared, without the condemnation that if another believes something else that the teller of the faith experiance will be deemed by you to be disrespectfull?
Lou Pilder

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2002, at 16:00:14

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:20:32

Dr. Bob,

Since there are new posters to the board all the time, and since many might not read the admin board, and especially not the archives of the admin board, wouldn't it be a good idea to put the examples you used in your post on the FAQ with a link from the Faith Board? And also perhaps an explanation.

It seems only fair to give every potential poster a reasonable idea of what is expected.

Dinah

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Lou Pilder

Posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2002, at 16:14:00

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 14:40:03

Lou,

I think I am understanding this now. I hope I can add some clarity.

You can talk about all your experiences, as long as you make it clear that these experiences are directed at you and no one else.

For example, to say "The Rider said YOU should only have one god.." would direct the comment at every reader.

But to say "the rider said, Lou, you should have no other god..." makes it clear that the comment is directed only at you.

I know that this means you won't be able to quote the Rider verbatum, but you will still be getting your message across.

I know some comments have slipped past by other people in the past, and I guess that these were mainly christian as I would guess the majority of people here will be christian.

I'm sure that Dr Bob will keep an eye on messages in the future to make sure these rules are adhered to by everyone.

Nikki

 

Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 16:49:45

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 11:20:32

Dr. Bob,
The post in question is as follows:
I was told by God that I shall have no other Gods before Him.
Now I have reviewed your outline of [in general, these would be OK and not OK]
After looking at these , I do not find a clear example that appraises the post in question OK or not OK. In fact, the ones that start off with "I feel", I do not know of any way that the implication, to me, by my God could apply in the case of the post that I want to post because it is not a case of "feelings" in my post.
The "I have one God and no others before Him does not apply, to me, in my experiance because I was told that I shall not have any Gods before Him. It is a [commandment]to me. "You shall not murder" is another [commandment] to me. You shall not commit adultery is another commandment made to me by my God. Are you saying that I can not post a commandment that I have from my God to me? I am not saying that those commandments are to be observed by others. They are made to me, just as the Christian poster is commanded to Obey Jesus in order to have salvation, as it appears to me in that post. I did not even say in my post that there were consequenses to not obeying. The Christian verse implies that if you do not Obey Jesus, you will not have salvation , for salvation is for those that Obey Jesus according to that post.
Then you post that the following is not OK:
[My faith says that I should have one God and no others before Him.] But you stated that it is OK to say:
[people of my faith have one God and no others before Him]. Could you point out to me the difference between the two in relation to why one is and the other is not OK. I am asking you because I do not see a great difference, and if ther is one, I would like to know it so I can further reserch your rational in the liturature of psychitry in order that I may be better able to communicate with you.
Now if you could clarify why I could not express the post as a commandment vs being acceptable to you as just a statement , then I could better communicate with you about this. Are you saying that it is the "shall" that I am restrained from posting? If so, then are you also saying that I could not post some or none of the following and if so could you clarify which that I could and which that I could not and state your rational for each so that I can examine the rational and further discuss this with you so that I could make my posts to accomodate your rational?
A).You [shall] love your neighbor as yourself
B).Unless your rightoiusness exceedes the rightiousness of the most rightious Rabbis, you [shall] not enter the Kingdom of God.
C)Blessed are they that mourn, for they [shall] be comforted
D)Blessed are the meek, for they [shall] inherit the earth
E)Blessed are the merciful, for they [shall] obtain mercy
F)Blessed are the pure in heart , for they [shall] see God
G)Blessed are the peacemakers, for they [shall] be called the children of God
H)Whosoever thearfore [shall] break one of the least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same [shall] be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.( this is a verse in the christian bible: book of Mathew)
Dr. Bob, my faith is about commandments. Are you saying that if I share my faith here that that would be some type of thing that would be "unsupportive" because commandments are involved in my faith? Are you saying that it is wrong for others to have my God as their God because there are commandments involved in my faith. Are you saying that your manual of psychiatry tells people that religions that have commandments are to be restrained? If so, could you site me the book that states this?
Lou

 

Re: revised introduction

Posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2002, at 15:45:35

In reply to Re: guidelines and exceptions Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 25, 2002, at 16:00:14

> Since there are new posters to the board all the time, and since many might not read the admin board, and especially not the archives of the admin board, wouldn't it be a good idea to put the examples you used in your post on the FAQ with a link from the Faith Board?

Good idea, but how about if I just revise the introduction to PBF? Since it's not so applicable to the other boards? I've now made it:

> > The general rule is that it's OK to share what works for you, but not to pressure others to do the same or to put them down for doing something different. Where to draw the line is sometimes hard, but since this *first came up*, there's been discussion of *possible exceptions* and *specific examples*, and that may help a little.

What do you think? Those are *links* to posts here.

Bob

 

It's a Maaahhvelous idea. (nm) Dr. Bob

Posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 20:07:40

In reply to Re: revised introduction, posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2002, at 15:45:35

 

Lou's reply to Dr. Bob's question Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2002, at 20:58:43

In reply to Re: revised introduction, posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2002, at 15:45:35

Friends,
The question asked by Dr. Bob is [what do you think concerning revision of the introduction to the faith board.?]
He then referrs to disussion of *possible exceptions* that may help a litte.
I am all for discussion that could lead to constructive change and clarification of any policys here.
For those that are new, the major discussion has centered around two posts here. One is going to be restrained if it is posted, the other has been posted without restraint. The restraint will be made on the grounds that the post will be deemed to either disrespect others, or put others down, or could also be deemed to pressure others.
The first post involves me, a jewish person, sharing my faith experiance as to what worked for me and I has been invited like the others here because the faith board was spacifically created for that purpose.
The other post, not that there are not other posts that could be also included in this discussion, is from a believer in Jesus and is also sharing her faith beleif here and has posted some very fundamental, strong, and foundational beliefs of those that believe in Jesus. It is apparent, to me at least, that the poster has great love for the others here as exemplfied in her other posts, and I am saying that so that you know that I believe, from the posts that she has posted in the last 10 months, that the poster is sincere and I beleive that she is a "true" believer and not in any way whatsoever posting to be disrespectfull to me, or put me down or pressure me to beleive in her Jesus.
But, also, I want you to know that I have been telling my faith experiance here for the same reason that I think that the poster of the other post is. I want to share with you my experiance because it gave me the power to overcome addiction and depression and thearfor it has the potential to help others. I suffer from the same affliction as the others here and I know about depression, mania, OCD, intrusive thoughts, paranioia, anger , rage, thoughts of suicide, fugue, delusions, hallucinations, agraphobia, acrophobia, hearing things, loss of appitite, sleeping disorders, and a lot of other mishagosh (yiddish).
The first post which is a post that I have said that I want to post in the tellng of my faith experiance here, is that I was told in a verbal exchange with the Rider, who is the word of God in my experiance, that [you shall have no other Gods before Me.] I have already revealed that the Rider is the Word of God and that it was revealed to me that in the beggining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God. I also said that later the Word became flesh, but I have not got to the revelaing, to me, of what that meant , yet. I think that it is no mystery , here , as others have posted, that the phrase, [you shall have no other Gods before me], is the first commandment to the Israelites made by God to his people after he brought them out of slavery in Egypt. The movie,"The Ten Commandments" is pretty accurate in depicting the story of the Exodus of the jews from Egypt that occured around 3500 years ago. I am not saying that there are not posters here that are not aware of the fact that jews make one of the foundations of their faith to be the first commandment, which is the beleife in one God and that those that beleive in Him Shall Not Have any Other Gods Before Him. But then someone here may not be fimiliar with the Jesus that the other poster is describing either.
It is the part in the first commandment, that jews should have no other Gods before Him, that at least as I can see,as depicted by the discussion here and my request for clarification, and that there is a post actully stateing that it is the "imperitive" that will be used as the criteria for deeming the post to be restrained.
The second post in discussion is [Jesus became our salvation for those that obey Him]
I have objected, not to the post being unrestrained, but that my post will be restrained and this post has not been restrained. I have no qualms at all with anyone here posting anything about their faith. I am not asking for that post to be included in any restraint, but to have my post allowed. For if it is that a jew can not post here that they shall have no other Gods before Him, and then a Christian can post that Jesus became our salvation to those that obey Him, then I feel that there is favortism made so that a jew can not post here, but a Christain can, in regads to their strong faith beleifs and so I feel that because I am a jew, I am not welcome here for I can not post the post in question, but the Christian poster can post the other post in question.
The issues are many-fold. The first issue is whether or not there are two different standards exibited here in relation to allowing one and not the other on the grounds that one or the other is disrespectfull to others, or puts others down, or pressures others.
It is my purpose to show that they either both do or both don't and I want to tell you why I think that they both do not, in any way, fall into any catagory that would cause restraint of either post.
First, they both are telling of their faith experiance. One, mine, is revealed to me by the Rider, who is The Word of God in my experiance, the other is revealed to the poster by the written Word of God, for the post is a quote from the Christian bible about Jesus. I am mostly deaf and have a condition that is disableing and prevents me from reading and writing well. If you examine my previous posts, you will find atrocious spelling and grammer. I apologise for this and I am taking many hours to try to present this post that would take someone else without my affliction perhaps 20 minuets. The point in this is that my experance , as incredible as it appears, is real to me and I believe that a deaf person can hear the Word of God , for I did not read the bible to any extent before my experiance. I beleive that the Word of God can go to anyone, in some way, without regard of their religion, which means , to me, that not just this group or that group can know God. It is my beleif that the Word of God goes out to all people in some way, for I have heard it and I am mostly deaf.
Onr argument that I see that the administration is alluding to to justify their restraint of my post is that they say that [you shall have no other Gods before me] is unecessary. Then is it also not necessary that the other poster leave out [those that obey] in the post and have it read [and Jesus became our salvation to all]
You see, it is absolutly necessary that nothing be censored out of what I was told by the Rider any more than it is not absolutly necessary that the other poster leave out something in that post.
There is a quantum difference between [you are to have one God] and [one God and Shall have no other Gods before Me] And anyway, why would I be encouraged to ,what I consider to be a demand to me to lie about what my God told me in order to post wat I experianced? The other poster is not encouaged to lie about what her bible really says to her so that she can post that post.
Another argument by the administation alludes to that there could be a compromise. Compromises are possible in some situations ad some not. There was no compromise in the Boston Harbor disagreement. There was no compromise with slavery in this country after 1865. There was no compromise with segregation in the country after 1954. Rosa Parks did not compromise. And Jesus , the anointed one did not compromise and niether is my God compromising with me when He says to me that I shall have no other Gods before Him.
Lou





 

Lou's response to Dr. Bob's question-part 2 Dr. Bob

Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2002, at 21:42:41

In reply to Re: revised introduction, posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2002, at 15:45:35

Friends,
The administation suggests that I change what I was told by my God to some other statement that is somethong different that I heard and then I will be able to post it. Now if I did do that, then it would not be me that is talking, but the person that gave me the words to say.
I feel awfully humilated by that. I am not going to lie in order to post here or anyware else. If I was to do that, then I would be violating another commandment that my God has said that I shall not do.
It has been revealed to me by the Rider that the things that I had learned in my experiance I was to DO. And if I do them, then the God of peace shall be with me. The Rider said to me, "Whatever things are True, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, ...think upon those things and the God of peace shall be with you. I do not want to think upon what is a lie. I do not want to think upon what is dishonest, I do not want to think upon what is unjust. I want to think on those things that my God has said to me will bring me peace. Please do not make me have to choose to give up my peace in exchange to post here.
Lou


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