Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 75408

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Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve

Posted by SFY on June 7, 2006, at 11:55:18

In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve, posted by pulse on June 6, 2006, at 16:41:45

> no, far as anything i've ever read or experienced, unipolar refers to chemical/ endogenous depression.
>
> exogenous simply means depression coming from the outside, and is also know as reactive depression.
>
> 'they' say that both forms can be remitted by taking ADs, but also, for the best outcomes ADs + therapy, usually of the talk variety - one on one.
>
> way back when i did enjoy kramers book 'listening to prozac.'
> not at all sure that i would nowadays...
>
> pulse

This isn't the Kramer who wrote "Listening to Prozac", that's Peter Kramer.

In my case, I'm more vulnerable to being affected by outside events but even absent any upsetting events I still carry my depression to one degree or another.

 

Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve Donna Louise

Posted by pulse on June 7, 2006, at 13:31:01

In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 7, 2006, at 6:07:15

re: listening to prozac, i read it long ago, but i don't recall maoi's even being mentioned. i could be wrong.

far as all this science part you're wanting answered, perhaps ed uk, larry hoover, sls, or linkage - others - could help you out there.

surely not me...lol. i score 98% on all right brain quizzes. i was ALL liberal arts, with a double major in art and art history; a watercolorist, then later became an interior designer. i got out of any science i possibly could in high school, and as i went to very experimental, but excellent colleges, i had no science or math requirements. just the ticket for me, and i don't regret it in the least!

pulse
.

 

Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve SFY

Posted by pulse on June 7, 2006, at 13:36:58

In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve, posted by SFY on June 7, 2006, at 11:55:18

oops! thanks for correcting me re: this NOT being peter kramer.

i assumed it was because i seem to recall peter kramer being interviewed here, but perhaps i'm wrong in this, also.

pulse

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by captaindebbie on June 7, 2006, at 14:26:09

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on June 2, 2006, at 10:50:59

hi,

im on 30mg of tranylcypromine (parnate), only started a few days ago.

i've had quite a few side effects: difficulty sleeping, restless limbs, mild headache and extreme tiredness.

im just wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences?

thank you

 

Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve Donna Louise

Posted by Caedmon on June 7, 2006, at 16:36:44

In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 7, 2006, at 6:07:15

MAOIs both increase neurotransmitters and change receptor numbers. They do a bunch of other stuff too though, which might be part of why they work when reuptake inhibitors don't, such as working on trace amines, etc. Phenelzine and tranylcypromine both have different active metabolites that are probably psychoactive. Tranylcypromine has a metabolite which is an NRI for example.

- Chris

 

Re: MAOI diet

Posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:00:42

In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve Donna Louise, posted by Caedmon on June 7, 2006, at 16:36:44

Tremendously helpful info. The fear factor with MAOis and diet has been making me crazy since I am a vegan (except for the occasional steak or sliver of parmesan.)
My pdoc says soy milk is OK and I have been drinking it regularly. Wouldn't it make sense that soy ice cream is OK? And I would figure fresh frozen soy beans (edamame a Japanese favorite) would also be OK.
The tofu thing is much harder to figure out since my pdoc says it's OK if it has been in the refrigerator for a couple of days. What I can't figure out is when those days begin. When it's made, put in the fridge at the store, put in my fridge?
Interestingly, my doc put me on Cytomel (a thyroid hormone) to bridge time inbetween getting off prozac and wellbutrin. My normally low/normal tyroid function went off the map and I have never felt better! I normally take 200mgs of Provigil a day and haven't touched the stuff since the Cytomel took hold. A friend of mine who is on Synthroid says that in general your throid should be high normal if you want to feel an increase in energy. Once my level settles back down I am making a bee line for a good endocrinologist.

 

Re: MAOI diet

Posted by Honore on April 7, 2007, at 12:06:32

In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:00:42

You can read up on the tofu stuff, but mostly if he says in the refrigerator for a few days, I'd assume that he means you can buy it and then keep it for a few days.

You're probably making it more complicated than it is, on that one. Just take it at face value.

You'll be okay, if you're careful. Just take your BP, if you feel at all concerned. You'll probably find that it's okay.

They have home BP cuffs for sale in most drugstores around here. They work adequately and are easy to use. Just wrap the cuff around your upper arm, as it illustrates, and it either self-inflates or you inflate it-- and let it go down. There's a digital read-out.

But mostly-- don't overthink this. Just read labels, ask questions if you have any-- and remember that the warnings are there because there's a risk-- but that many people take MAOIs for many years with no problem. I did. It's just a matter of getting a few things clear in your mind, which you will.

Honore

 

Re: MAOI diet

Posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:10:16

In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by Honore on April 7, 2007, at 12:06:32

Thanx for the encouragement. It is easy (for me) to over think (obsess might be another description.)

Do you know how long after eating a troublesome food you can expect a reaction.

I will get a cuff this afternoon!

Zana

 

Re: MAOI diet zana

Posted by jkshrews on April 8, 2007, at 22:47:39

In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:10:16

Zana,

The difference between soy milk and tofu or soy sauce is that the latter two have been subject to fermentation. Soy milk (or ice cream) has not.

However, I eat home-fermented yogurt constantly with no problem. I have seen it on some lists of banned items, but it certainly doesn't bother me.

The immediate sign of a problem is a headache accompanied by a stiff neck. I have had to take my emergency med (clorpromazine) twice. Both times, it was after drinking red wine. So I have eliminated that from my diet.

A reaction can come pretty fast--within a half hour to an hour after eating the offending item. And of course, eating it on an empty stomach will make it happen faster.

The really dangerous thing is not food so much as decongestants. If you were to take a cold pill containing a decongestant, you could be in real trouble.

I recently went to a minor emergency clinic because of a week-end recurrence of a sinus infection. I gave the doctor a written list of all my meds. He wrote me a script for a second-line antibiotic, and I went straight to the drug store.

The pharmacist said, "Do you want this Entex prescription filled also?" I said, "What??!!" On the same form with the antibiotic, the doctor had written me a prescription for a very strong decongestant that probably would have killed me.

I called the clinic and said, "I did not get the Entex, because I think I am too young to die!"

I have learned that I have to watch out for myself. These guys are busy pushing patients through the clinic, and they goof up on their jobs just like everyone else does.

I am going to list it with my drug allergies, of which I have one to sulfas. I will add "No sympathomimetics permitted." That will tell the doctor he cannot use or prescribe anything that looks chemically like adrenaline.

jkshrews

> Thanx for the encouragement. It is easy (for me) to over think (obsess might be another description.)
>
> Do you know how long after eating a troublesome food you can expect a reaction.
>
> I will get a cuff this afternoon!
>
> Zana


 

Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 8:35:57

In reply to Re: MAOI diet zana, posted by jkshrews on April 8, 2007, at 22:47:39

Dear jkshrews,
Thanks you for the helpful information about yogurt. I don't make my own but I do eat soy yogurt from the store. I have started buying the 8oz size, so much more expensive, instead of the quart just to be sure its fresh. You don't mention tofu which I eat (or used to eat) sliced with oil and vinegar.
What a scary story about the decongestant. I guess its another example of how important it is to take care of ourselves and depend on educating ourselves.
Anybody tried to eat fresh soy beans? It seems to me they should be fine since they are not fermented.

 

Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?

Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 9:35:55

In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 8:35:57

Zana,

Yes, tofu and soy sauce are both fermented, but fresh, dried, and toasted soy beans are not.

The only beans to avoid are fava beans. These are very high in L-tryptophan, which is a precursor for your brain hormone serotonin. The MAOI works partly by slowing up the clearance of serotonin from your nerve synapses. So if one eats fava beans while taking an MAOI, it can cause a big serotonin overload in the body's nervous systems, which can be deadly.

Are you doing a pure-veg diet? If so, I would really encourage you to add some milk to your regime. A pure-veg diet has almost no vitamin B-12 (cobalamine) in it. It doesn't cause a big immediate problem, because the liver can store it for years, but a woman on pure-veg cannot breast feed a baby. The body will refuse to give up any of its precious little B-12 supply, and the baby will get a bad vitamin deficiency.

jkshrews

> Dear jkshrews,
> Thanks you for the helpful information about yogurt. I don't make my own but I do eat soy yogurt from the store. I have started buying the 8oz size, so much more expensive, instead of the quart just to be sure its fresh. You don't mention tofu which I eat (or used to eat) sliced with oil and vinegar.
> What a scary story about the decongestant. I guess its another example of how important it is to take care of ourselves and depend on educating ourselves.
> Anybody tried to eat fresh soy beans? It seems to me they should be fine since they are not fermented.

 

Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?

Posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43

In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 9:35:55

It's my understanding that fresh tofu is fine, but marinated is not. I assume that is because the marination extends the "shelf life" of the tofu and would then lead to increased tyramine levels.

Now I don't eat tofu, so I can't speak from personal experience. But I feel confident about this info. I don't have a link to an old thread, but I'm sure it's here somewhere in the archives.

Namaste

gg

 

MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:48

I am a newbie to MAOIs and also a vegan. Anybody on MAOIs have experience eating tofu, fresh soy beans (edemame) or taking ginseng? I take a suppliment with 250mgs of siberian ginseng. Anybody have a problem with any of these foods?
Or are they OK?

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:52

In reply to MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 9:21:44

You've probably had lots of references to lists of allowed/disallowed foods. I noticed that this page had further lnks that explained in more detail which soybean foods are all right.

http://www.pccnaturalmarkets.com/health/Diet/Tyramine_Free_Diet.htm

Ginseng isn't okay, from what I remember.

Honore

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:59

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17

Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 11:27:51

Selegiline metabolizes to D-amphetamine and methamphetamine, which are good antidepressants in and of themselves. Because they require MAO to be eliminated, and the selegiline has it suppressed, they will build up to a higher level than they would have otherwise. Some appetite suppression and insomnia may occur, but you may get over it in time. I take Rozerem at 9 PM nightly to help with the sleep cycle, and I have Sonata on hand to take occassionally if I awaken after only three or four hours of sleep.

jkshrews

> Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
> Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

A small amount of seroquel is also useful, if rozerem and/or ambien aren't enough.

Sonata is particularly good if you wake up with a few hours left to sleep, since it has a very short half-life.

I recommend Emsam, but of course, there are many individual factors that affect which drug is best. jkshrews is probably right, that the sleep issues subside'; I'm not sure they go away completely, but the extra energy from Emsam makes them more manageable.

Parnate also has some amphetamine-like breakdown products, so it should give you energy. Didn't work that way for me-- but does for many people.

Honore

 

Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:06:44

In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43

Then you for the information. Tofu is actually wonderful just sliced up with oil and vinegar. I'll see if I can find the information on marination.
namaste
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:09:10

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17

Honore,
jkshrews gave me this link too. It is a good link. I don't think all that much research has been done on soy and MAOIs but this one is pretty complete.
Thank you.
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:14:22

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

I take seroquel at night (25mg) and have had to double the dose some nights. It would be great if this was an early side effect that passed! I could live with the wide dreams but not the no sleep.
Thanx again,
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:17:30

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03

Having been on every other antidepressant in the world, including Provigil, the energy really is amazing and what a relief!
I'm so used to the seroquel that the double dose doesn't bother me much. I also take klonpin but I hate to increase it because it is sooo hard to get off.
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:25:14

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

ps.
Thanx for the tip on Rozerem. It sounds like a good drug, maybe a better choice than the seroquel. I am taking soo many things and my pdoc is a real stickler for one change at a time but I'd like to give this one a try. I am not wide about the new atypical antipsychotics. Maybe it's just that I'd rather not be in that class of meds. I'm also taking abilify and would like to discontnue that. Am going to have to wait until I've finished getting used to the Emsam I think.
Thanx again.
Zana.
Where did you get the infor on the metabolites? No wonder it's stimulating!

 

Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem

Posted by jkshrews on April 10, 2007, at 7:28:22

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:25:14

Zana,

If you have bipolar disorder, it might be really important to stick with the Abilify or the Seroquel. (But I can't figure out why you are taking them both.) Both are effective anti-manics, and Seroquel is now approved to treat bipolar depression. For a person with BD, this would be a primary treatment, and EMSAM would be only an adjunct. If you have high irritability (which is really just dysphoric hypomania) I think the Seroquel or Abilify is right on target. I don't know how well it works for euphoric types. If you are thinking of it as a sleep med, that is just a side-effect. (You could just as well take Benedryl for the same side-effect.)

These agents should not be called "atypical antipsychotics," which is why I call them "antimanics" when used in the context of BD. Better yet would be to call them by some common feature of chemical structure, as is the case with benzodiazepines, tricyclics, etc., rather than by disease conditions they are currently used to treat.

Info on the breakdown process of any drug can be found in the package insert in a section on clinical pharmacology. It assumes you know the related biochemistry. What the insert won't usually tell you is little facts such as Parnate is different from D-amphetamine by only a single chemical bond and, in addition to being an MAOI, it is active at the same receptor site as D-amphetamine.

People with BD frequently have a very fragile circadian rhythm that is easily upset by exposure to artificial lighting after sunset. In fact, the manic-depressive aspect of the disorder, i.e., mood cycling, might be caused largely by artificial lighting. Some experiments have shown that if a person with BD is placed in an environment with a purely natural day-night lighting cycle, the mood cycling aspect of the disorder trails off and goes away in about 6 months. Rozerem (rameltheon) simulates a total black-out by activating the melatonin receptors in the brain. I say it cancels the "Thomas Edison effect." So it is conceivable that it might be an effective remedy for mood cycling if taken very regularly over the long course of time. It is still important to turn off unnecessary lights in the evening, maybe wear sunglasses if you watch TV, etc. (Or don't watch TV, read email, etc., after 7 PM) A very helpful book about sleep hygiene is "The Promise of Sleep."

Rozerem does not make you go to sleep. It just makes it possible to sleep after a week or two of regular use, if you have a disturbed circadian rhythm. Although it might genuinely help you if you need it, it is not sedating and will not directly counteract the amphetamine effect of EMSAM or Parnate. It will just shut off the lights.

There is another melatonin-oriented drug called Valdoxan (agomelatine), but I don't know if it is out yet or how they intend to use it.

jkshrews

> ps.
> Thanx for the tip on Rozerem. It sounds like a good drug, maybe a better choice than the seroquel. I am taking soo many things and my pdoc is a real stickler for one change at a time but I'd like to give this one a try. I am not wide about the new atypical antipsychotics. Maybe it's just that I'd rather not be in that class of meds. I'm also taking abilify and would like to discontnue that. Am going to have to wait until I've finished getting used to the Emsam I think.
> Thanx again.
> Zana.
> Where did you get the infor on the metabolites? No wonder it's stimulating!

 

Re: Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem jkshrews

Posted by zana on April 10, 2007, at 9:20:18

In reply to Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem, posted by jkshrews on April 10, 2007, at 7:28:22

I was put on both abilify and seroquel as antidepressant augementation. I found the abilify (2mg) gave me a lift, ( I get vegetative symptoms,) but also made me hypoglycemic and pooped out after a month or so. I am still on it just because my pdoc is so careful about changing only one thing at a time. I don't know if the seroquel had any therapeutic effect but it knocks me out and helped me regulate my sleep cycle.
I would like to get off the abilify simply because I suspect it is making no contribution and the ensam seems to be doing a good job so far. This is about 10weeks in.
I too read the product insert but I don't read the chemistry careful. I skim for the half life and elimination data.
I think you make a really good point about the classification of meds. Abilify is actually listed as a tranquillizer in the online search engine I use.
Zana

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by Kneeko on January 14, 2006, at 3:09:34

> K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
>
>
> Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
>
>
> The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
>
>
> If Nardil helps, giving these up will be no problem, but just wondering what Fast Food is Go and what isn't from the Major Chains. Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input

Can someone please answer the above question regarding eating soybean oil while taking Nardil. I am planning on starting Nardil in a few days and have found that most of the foods I eat have soybean oil listed in the ingredients. Do you find the diet too restrictive to warrant the medications? Thanks in advance for your help.


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