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All right then. Since I understand... 64bowtie

Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2004, at 11:44:42

In reply to Re: Re: First let me... ((((((((Dinah)))))))), posted by 64bowtie on August 11, 2004, at 3:38:31

> <<< Like I've said many times in many posts, I hear cogniphobia! Many Babblers have a phobia against thinking; seeing themselves as they are in their mind's eye, and accepting what they see.

Do you perhaps see why posters might be offended by reading that they have a phobia against thinking? Especially since posters in general seem like a well read bunch who rather like to think. Just because people come to different conclusions than you come to doesn't mean they don't like to think.

A lot of people here *do* have trouble accepting themselves. Others don't. But for those who do, do you think that implying their difficulty in accepting themselves is due to a fear of thinking is a useful method to promote self acceptance?

> I can't see any reference equating phobias to pathology. Cancer is pathological. Phobias are faulty beliefs based on flawed information, being enacted out physically, much to the clients discomfort and despair.

Phobias have historically been one of the conditions most amenable to treatments like CBT. But sometimes, as in my case, the phobia is more than a phobia. And correcting the faulty beliefs, and exposure and response prevention, only address the symptom (the phobia) and not the root cause. Sometimes a fear of vomit is just a fear of vomit. Sometimes a fear of vomit is a handy obsession to distract one from the underlying issues. Such was the case with me. The phobia wasn't a faulty belief based on flawed information. I had the correct information. But it was way too scary not to be scared of vomit.

> > You think that our talk of inner children is one example of the pathology we placate here? And that adults don't have the illusion of inner children?
> <<< I studied Transactional Analysis in the early to mid 70s, so I am accutely aware of an internal child overlay concept. For an adult, the child ego-state has a tiny parent, adult and child built in blah, blah, blah...

Are you willing to accept and respect that for some of us, an inner child is more than an "internal child overlay concept"? That for some of us there is far more involved than a "tiny parent, adult, and child built in." And to accord far more respect for our experience than "blah, blah, blah" would indicate? Inner child is a useful shorthand, a socially accepted way of discussing something that is far more meaningful to us than that. You don't have to understand it. But I ask that you respect an integral part of myself by not speaking disrespectfully of my experience.

> > While you say "I did not say the memories can't hurt you." You also say "[Aside], how do memories hurt anyone? Why would anyone give that much power and energy to an abstraction, a story about what happened to you, that it, the abstraction has the ability to take action against your senses and physically cause pain?", two statements that might appear on the surface to be contradictory. So I'm making the leap to concluding you are saying that memories can hurt you, but only emotionally not physically, and only if you let them.
> <<< Thank you for understanding. (((((Dinah))))) I hear acceptance in your realization of the concept. If I were only here for gratification, right now I would be glowing with pride. Thanx!!! I add, that if you are only on the planet to find and be comfortable, any emotional upsetness will destabilize and thus, hurt. My, my, my how life is so much more than that. Go get your share!!!

You hear understanding, and acceptance that that is how you think and feel about the subject. And if it works for you, and for all of those it works for, I am pleased and say go for it. I'm glad this has helped you. But if you have been listening to everything I have said, you may also have heard me saying that some people feel very hurt by this message. There is a big step between saying memories can hurt only if you let them, and being *able* to not let them hurt. I imagine that most everyone here has tried not to let those memories hurt them. There are few people who don't *know* that their abusers aren't in the room and can't hurt them. Although, by definition, aren't flashbacks in the technical sense an inability to *know* that? And a well researched and documented phenomenon because of the many studies done on battle fatigue, shell shock, etc. People often feel bad enough that they aren't able to prevent memories from hurting them. Hearing that it's their choice or that they could choose to feel differently just makes them feel ashamed by their failure, in addition to hurt by their memories. From what *I* heard, and this is just my understanding, many people have tried to tell you this.

> > You say "I just choose to live in the here and now and time and tides take care of the past." But you also say that you don't deny what happened to you in the past or minimize it. You just choose not to dwell on it. And that anyone can choose to do what you did.
> <<< I could add to that but I will go back in my corner and re-hook my leash and be good..., and quiet. You said it so much better than I ever did!
> > So my overall view of your message is that you think we choose to feel the way we do now, and we can choose to feel differently if we wish. That we are indulging our child selves and not choosing to live with the freedom an adult self would have.
> <<< My dear sweet (((Dinah)))... Thanks for the lesson on how to say my stuff!!! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
> > That we should quit indulging ourselves and each other and start making better choices about how to feel. To choose to leave the past in the past. To accept what happened to us, but to choose to leave it in the past where it belongs. To start thinking and behaving like adults.
> <<< Can I interest you in becoming my editor. I promise not to post at Babble without your approval if you do!
OK, since I have feedback that I indeed do understand your message, just let me say this. You do not believe in allowing others to shame us, right? And yet your message is based on the concept that if we do not let go of the pain, it's because we're choosing to hang on to it. It's our *choice* to feel the way we do. And yet most of us have tried our best *not* to feel bad. We've made the choice over and over again to feel differently. Some of us, like me, have even succeeded. I managed to choose not to feel the way I felt. I chose to feel differently. Yet the self built on those choices eventually crumbled, because *I* (and I'm only speaking for myself - not you or your successful clients) couldn't sustain improvement based on choice. When I read your words, I sometimes feel shame that I wasn't stronger and able to maintain an edifice built on will and choice and intellect. Yet I truly do accept your message that I shouldn't allow someone else to shame me. Which means that I have to reject the message that I could have done better if I tried hard enough. If I *chose* hard enough.

> <<< I sense that effort must be honored and conserved (not wasted). Results leans toward doing just those two things. If we seek results instead of comfort, effort is not wasted on placation habits

If you truly believe that effort must be honored and not wasted, wouldn't it be better to direct your message to those who wish to receive it? Those who would receive it as the empowering message you intend it to be, and not the shaming message that many people read into it? Don't you think it would be a great conservation of effort to ask people if they'd rather hear a placating answer or a direct answer in accordance with your coaching techniques? I for one would happily answer "placating" (although you might want to find a more positive word for placating).

> My Life-Coaching stuff is the grail, finally, and not just the grail d'jour as TA became for many.

I understand that that is what you believe. I hope that you and your clients have great success with it. I hope that you are able to help millions with it. And I'm glad that you respect that it isn't the grail for me.




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