![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 1, 2018, at 14:55:08
Well, that's a bit sad, but there we go. Another gym bites the dust.
And I went along for months just paying for a day pass and things were great. Nobody got all up in my business. Nobody seemed to be oggling me or trying to corner me for a yak yak yak yak. Nobody seemed to mind whatever I was doing...
Until I joined. Then around one month later (I sort of want to say 'predictably' for the New Zealand environment) people decide it's time for them to get all up in my business.
I really don't think I am over-reacting, at all, to being very insulted by this person telling me to put clips on. I never put clips on before. There is a wall list of rules and having clips on is not on that wall list of rules.
Someone scratched up the screen of the elipital I had been camping on. I think it might be slighly grandiose to think that it had anything to do with my usage of it... But on the other hand, it might not be.
I met with the gym manager today. I really wanted to like him, but he's a tool. What do I mean by that... He had already made up his mind that I was some hysterical woman. But it is unclear why since what happened was someone asked me to put clips on and when my reasons weren't accepted, I left. I started with a calm explanation of that to check we were on teh same page... But he was of a... Naughty girl / drama mindset. Which is actually insulting, still... So...
I'm thinking of most of the conversations I overhear. They all have a dynamic of people trying to control each other with shame and guilt. People calling other people selfish. People worrying about whether their actions are selfish. That way people who call others selfish (or raise the issue of their possibly being selfish) means they get to control the actions of the person who is self-less enough to not want to be selfish.
That's the dynamic.
So when they say 'no dramas'. Like I'm making dramas. I pretty much know for sure that I'm not making dramas. See... It's clear: Either I can lift, or you guys are going to be all up in my business. If you are going to make up arbitrary rules of 'put the clips on' then what's next? Don't lift it over your head? Don't squat below parallel? Don't move dynamically? Whatever arbitrary rule they make up...
I'll see about getting a refund. That wasn't what I signed up for.
No dramas.
Dramas would be... Continuing to train there, after that.
I went to see swimming this morning. 7am. People drop their kids off early. I see. That's why some people get to do swimming. Because their parents pay for them to go to swimming. From 7am or from 8am or after school from 3-5 or whatever. It's a form of... Babysitting. How many coaches / instructors to a group, I mean. How much work vs yak /screaming and carrying on.
They actually open at 5:30am. The bullies chase people so the people need to work earlier and earlier and earlier and earlier. People need to be out of there before people are up to drop their kids off...
I gotta look into getting my own barbell. I've resigned myself to having stuff now. If I move... Stuff has to move with me. Not heaps of stuff, but select items. A mattress I like. Some kitchen items. A barbell will have to be added to that.
I feel like I need to join a gang for gang protection if I want to appear in public or I always become a target.
Awful country.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 1, 2018, at 15:08:17
In reply to and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 1, 2018, at 14:55:08
And there are some good swimming kids and some good coaches. But then there's the rabble... And then there's... Worse than the rabble.
The hardest thing is people who don't have an eye for things. They can't tell.
I can tell that I can't tell some things. There are certain German syllables that my ears can't hear properly. I can sort of hear that I can't quite hear the sound. My brain can't process it properly. I can't make the sounds, either. I think there is some connect... If I could hear it properly I could make the sound. Some kind of... Mirroring.. Something like that is missing sometimes.
Watching butterfly swimming is like that for me, too. My brain can't process what I'm seeing properly. Partly because most of the work is done under the water and you sort of have to infer the bits that you aren't seeing and try and feel your body resonate with that...
That was what I connected with / fell in love with about Olympic lifting. When people are moving the bar properly it moves really really really really fast and it looks like the lifter isn't really moving at all. Like, just opening their hip angle a slight little bit and the bar pops up from their hips to their shoulders or over their head. There is a skill or a knack to precisely the movement that gets the bar to jump in a vertical direction. It looks and feels like magic when people get it right. And then when they train precisely that for years and years and years with massive amounts of weight that's how they lift massive amounts of weight. Just like that. Not as fast -- but lots of weight.
Anyway... There's this not understanding of the role / place / utility of structure and of repetition and of doing things that are hard rather than doing things that are easy / fun... vs having fun. freestyling. freeplay.
There's this not understanding that the 4 'approved' styles of swimming (freestyle, breaststroke, backstroke, butterfly) are aritrary ways of swimming that FINA defined (and has defined differently over time). That they are useful to train because of component skills with carry-over. But there are other ways of moving in the water that can also be useful to train (for certain purposes). E.g., sideways undulation like a tuna fish can be used in underwater pull-outs. And so on...
Anyway... People seem to resent me because I do my thing... And much of what I do is creative / unconventional. So people tend to notice. Then people get jealous / cranky about that. There's this fear that things will disintegrate into complete and utter rabble.
You can't really train Olympic Lifting when Powerlifters are in charge of the gym. Because the guys will like to deadlift the womens bar because they can load more plates onto it since it is lighter. Because there is always pressure to load more weight on (focus almost exclusively on the weight lifted) so the form breaks down and the bar doesn't pop at all.
Terminal technique.
Anyway...
I suppose I'm trying to decide whether it is worth my trying to assess the swimming situation at 5:30am. Otherwise... There's no reason for me to go back there.
You have to come in at the top only so you have power to be egalitarian. There's no other way to get that done.
That's why... If you train in the US you have to go home for 2 years after. That's responsible. Not contributing to the brain drain. If you can't get a functional team together in 2 years so it is worth your continuing... Then you can probably get back out... That seems reasonable. But that's how it has to be done. You have to learn someplace else and come back here from a position of power. There isn't really any working your way up here. The people who know need to lock themselves away, mostly. They need to live in another realm, even.
Sigh.
Posted by baseball55 on November 1, 2018, at 17:58:05
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 1, 2018, at 15:08:17
Forgive me if this sounds unkind, Alex, because I certainly do not mean it in that spirit. But it seems to me that you clash a lot with people in many settings and, perhaps, misconstrue what people are saying, or maybe the spirit or intention in which they are saying it.
Maybe the comment about using clips was not an order, but meant as a helpful suggestion. They do keep the weights from falling, should you start to lose control of the bar. So maybe a response like "thanks, but I think I should be okay" or "do you really think I need them" would lead to less conflict. Also, my experience with weights and power lifters is that they are very happy to give advice, especially to novices and women, on form, etc.
I used to be a curmudgeon and do this leave me alone response. But then I started listening and asking their advice and it greatly helped my form. These guys know what they are doing and they are always helping and watching out for each other. Gym rats are also used to sharing equipment, so I have found that when the gym is crowded, all I have to ask is - can I work in with you? With free weights, this isn't alway practical because I'm using so little weight than they are. But most are happy and accustomed to taking turns on machines or telling you, with free weights, how many more sets they are doing.
I have also found swimmers generally willing to share lanes, to show you how to do a stroke if you ask and are willing to take advice. I mostly swim free-style and maybe some breast-stroke. Like you, I can not figure out the butterfly. But freestyle I find very soothing.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 4:56:47
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by baseball55 on November 1, 2018, at 17:58:05
> Forgive me if this sounds unkind, Alex, because I certainly do not mean it in that spirit. But it seems to me that you clash a lot with people in many settings and, perhaps, misconstrue what people are saying, or maybe the spirit or intention in which they are saying it.
Hey. I know you aren't an unkind person, and I appreciate your honesty. I do seem to clash a lot with people. I think what is common to the setting is that they are in a position of power and they decide things like where I live or what I do (or do not) study or how I lift weights in the gym...
> Maybe the comment about using clips was not an order, but meant as a helpful suggestion.I initially interpreted it as such. Shook my head a little and explained that I didn't want to add any more weight to the bar. It was at that point that she explained that it wasn't a request - it was an order. In the name of the magical Gods that she has a personal direct line to: Health and Safety. At which point I took note of her name and said I would talk to her manager about that because I didn't believe it was a matter of health and safety. I then left. As they say: Turn and walk away. She has the power to prevent me lifting if I don't lift the way she says. I have the power to lift or to turn and walk away. So I turned and walked away.
> They do keep the weights from falling, should you start to lose control of the bar.
They are rubber plates that are designed to fall onto a platform surface. If they fall off, it's actually no big deal. They don't tend to fall off, though. Like how when people dive they don't tend to hit their heads on the diving board when people lift Olympic weights (at considerably less than max effort) they don't tend to drop the weights crooked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNk2EfcFCzk
see how the weights don't fall off even when you drop them at the end of the lift? and I wasn't even dropping them at the end of the lift. I was lowering it slowly (and lifting it slowly too, for that matter).
I do see sense of using clips when you have metal weight plates not designed to be dropped. I do see sense of using clips when you are bench pressing because that can go horribly wrong when something goes wrong with one arm or plates slide off one side and the other side ricochets up.
But I was lifting 2x5kg rubberised plates on the platform. In a deadlift movement. Not even anything dynamic, at all.
> So maybe a response like "thanks, but I think I should be okay" or "do you really think I need them" would lead to less conflict. Also, my experience with weights and power lifters is that they are very happy to give advice, especially to novices and women, on form, etc.
So... I feel like I tried to do things the way you suggested. With respect to saying I didn't want to add weight... But she decided to pull rank. At which point I decided to pull rank on her and speak with her manager.
I spoke with her manager today and assessed his reaction to various things... I don't know that he lifts, at all. I think he's a manager who was trained as a manager rather than a manager who is a physiotherapist or a sport scientist or... I found myself in the position of needing to try and justify why what I wanted to do was safe.
I have this idea... It's like... When someone is driving the car then you don't start trying to tell them how to drive. Most people would really resent that and would probably say 'if you don't like how I drive get out of my car'. I feel like when someone is lifting at the gym then if they aren't putting the people around them in danger then other people should shut their pie hole. I don't go about the gym trying to tell anybody else how or what they should be doing. I see plenty of sh*t I think it stupid and plenty of sh*t that I think will likely get people injured, but I don't say anything because nobody asked me for my opinion. And because I should really just mind my own business. Which is my own behavior and how I conduct myself. Not trying to get other people to act or behave in ways I see fit simply because I can.
> I used to be a curmudgeon and do this leave me alone response. But then I started listening and asking their advice and it greatly helped my form. These guys know what they are doing and they are always helping and watching out for each other. Gym rats are also used to sharing equipment, so I have found that when the gym is crowded, all I have to ask is - can I work in with you? With free weights, this isn't alway practical because I'm using so little weight than they are. But most are happy and accustomed to taking turns on machines or telling you, with free weights, how many more sets they are doing.
I don't know anything about swimming or about swim training. I learn a lot by watching the people train that. Particularly the little kids. I think there is a really small group of tiny kids and they work really hard and have brightness in their eyes.
I'm sure people would be willing to coach me if I wanted to join a group. The thing is, though, that this is my leisure time. It isn't work time. I do't have to do things that I dont' want to do in my leisure time (of all times). It's my freaking leisure time. For me to *enjoy* and *play* and so on -- so long as I don't get in the the way of other people working and playing.
I enjoy developing my *feel* for the water. Minimal movements that result in maximium glide. I like to work on my streamline and exercises that encourage me to lengthen my lines in the pool. I like to... Do my thing. To be honest, I really like to be free to move my body as *I* see fit. To discover a creeky movement that needs flossing. To discover a muscle knot that needs releasing. To discover something that needs activating. I'm sure I could learn from others. That's not really the issue here, though. The issue here, though, is that there are times when I just want to be allowed to do my own thing. This seems to repeatedly be what public spaces will not allow me.
After around 1 month people start throwing tantrums that I will not interact with them the way they want me to. That seems to be a recurring thing. For example in yoga or whatever... To start with I can go and focus on what I am doing and focus on improving what I am doing. But eventually I am expected to hold back on what I am doing and interact with someone else (typically someone who is there to yak yak yak yak yak primarily and who is constantly scanning around them all the time and who seems completely unable to focus on improving themself or simply enjoying their journey).
I think it is because I am female. So I am expected to be other - focused.
In the weights room nobody tells the big guys what to do. I can't train in those gyms, typically, because nobody tells the big guys that they should probably give the lady's barbell to the lady because she wants to lift it.
If there arne't big guys around who people are afraid of then typically it's the trainers or employees who will go around ordering people about. It's a... Prestige. Kudos. Pissing on someone sort of a thing to do.
You don't tell someone what to do in the gym unless they make it clear they give a damn about your advice / opinion.
I trained Olympic Weightlifing properly and it is a very technique dependent thing to do. Like ballet or like gymnastics. I did a year of personal training and I actually did learn a lot... But I learned far more from previous stuff I learned back when some of the biggest names in the field were offering technique advice to people who wanted it (including me) who posted videos on Youtube and so on.
I'm capable of asking for advice and responding to it.
But people telling me what to do because they have the power to do that...
Or people who demand that I interact with them / yap yap yap with them even when they can see that I'm trying to be / remain immersed in what I'm doing... I can't tolerate them. No. I'm not paid to babysit them.
I could have just done what she said. Put clips on.
But the thing is... Then the next time I went it would be an instruction to do (or not do) something else.
And so it would go on.
All I have the power to do at this point is to walk away. So I'll do that.
I'll look into a home barbell as a priority for me. I have not been able to train in New Zealand properly. In Australia I could only because either the gym was empty (the staff monitored the heavy weights room - uh me - via ceiling cam) or becuase the biggest guys in the gym glared at anyone who looked like they might be about to approach me with 'advice' and would actually say 'f*ck off, she knows what she's doing' if anyone tried to instruct me.
I deserve to be allowed to exercise the way I see fit. As does everyone.
I don't comment on their f*ck ups. That's not my place.
If they won't shut up about mine... I don't want to / I can't train there.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 5:13:31
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust... » baseball55, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 4:56:47
and it's a lot like driving. i mean, everyone thinks they're a great driver, but it's not actually the case that most people are above average.
there are some genuinely good drivers out there. i'm fortunate that the ACC actually helps fund some of them to teach me to drive (or ride) on the ACC driving courses. I enjoy learning from people who know what they are talking about.
But most people are just f*ck*ng full of it.
But almost everyone has got an opinion.
That's the great thing about how everyone has their very own body. It is like, you can do what you want to do with your body in the gym... And then you might see someone and go 'wow, what did they do to build / make the body they've got' and you might actually ask their opinion or their advice. But typically... The fatter and weaker and unfitter the people are the more advice they are full of.
And the rubbish drivers are all about accelearating yourself quickly out of (?) danger or whatever nonsense...
The gym is even more personal for people than driving because cars are extensions of your body by... Extension. Whereas your actual body...
Yeah.
It is about freedom. It is about the lack of freedom in these parts. It is about hierarchy. It is about people asserting their position on the hierarchy (their superiority). It is about my being seen not to be the sort of person who goes about inducing shame and guilt in others. It is about my being targeted as an easy victim, yeah. It is about people thinking that I'll whine on and on and on (beg and plead). It is about people not knowing that I'm the kinda person who says it once: Says it twice: Says it three times (absolute max). And then I'm done speaking. I mean I'm done. Really. For reals. I don't need to train at Moana pool. There's teh f*ck*ng ocean to swim in. There's my very own gym at home.
It's just f*ck*ng sad for me to realise (again and again and again) why people need their private swimming pools and private gyms and private everything. Why there needs to be this other realm.
Becaue otherwise.. People can't function in this country. The rulers rule with tehir iron fist and their subjects are not allowed to be.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 5:27:52
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust... » baseball55, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 4:56:47
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/swimming-pools/moana-pool/moana-gym
the guy in the f*ck*ng advertising picture doesn't even have clips on the bar (and he's not lifting the plates designed to be dropped specifically)
it was an attempt to interact with me or boss me or whatever...
in complete and utter disregard of my being (trying to be) occupied with my own (independent) ends.
busybody.
that's all.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 5:41:31
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 5:27:52
And it wasn't about the biggest names in the field. Though there were some rather well-known names...
It was about the *quality* of what they had to say (as assessed my me) and about what they said being *informational* and not an *ultimatum*.
It was about being able to watch a video (side on or front on or some combo) of a lifter doing a lift (at slow speeds even) and read a thread where different people said different things about what they thought was wrong with it / about what they thought the person needed to work on.
It was about people posting videos of themselves doing pull ups or deadlifts or kettlebell swings or f*ck*ng whatever. It was about people saying 'bro, do you know you have massive lumbar erectors!!' or 'you look like you need to stretch a bit, dude' or 'why don't you try something for your rear delts? Or whatever...
It was about (much like what Babble was about for me) the ability to get different bits of information and take responsibility for how I was going to move my body moving forwards.
I resent it when someone interrupts my own focus on what I'm doing to offer whatever falls out of their pie-hole. Because I am thinking dammit and are they that damned sure that what they have to offer is better than what my mind is currently working on???????
People aren't really respectful of others autonomy, really.
I did prefer the internet. Because it gave me more autonomy (the ability to make better informed decisions) than anything I encountered IRL.
The small group thing... People were able to build up some reputation which was helpful when people offered you something that was very dissonant or differnet... At times... Yeah.
I respect what you said here, Baseball.. I did need to process it. I think I made the right decision. To walk away both times. Yeah.
They don't seem to have diving training very often... Unless they mostly do trampoline work I don't think it's a serious thing here.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 6:03:33
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 5:41:31
the say it up to three times thing...
not on the boards, obviously lol.
but in real life.
i don't say much to anyone in real life.
what i do say... i have a really strong tendancy to actually mean.
i persisted with the med thing, here, because i just couldn't get past thinking that it must be a meritocracy, really, and i simply do not believe they found around 300 people where each and every one of them is regarded to be more likely to go on successful career in medicine than me. i simply could not get past that.
the UMAT being more recently replaced by a British thing (with some ethics) helps me, somewhat.
But I find still, this community hasn't got the hang of 'don't treat her like that'.
Or maybe they are trying to run me out of town.
Who knows.
Posted by baseball55 on November 2, 2018, at 17:08:14
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust... » baseball55, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 4:56:47
Oh, I see. I didn't realize it was the gym management themselves who made an issue of the clips.
Posted by baseball55 on November 2, 2018, at 17:12:41
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by baseball55 on November 2, 2018, at 17:08:14
Actually, my favorite thing is to go to the gym in early afternoon when the place is mostly empty. I'm pretty much a solitary exerciser. Maybe because I was such a klutz as a kid and got teased for it. I have never in my life understood team sports or fandom.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 19:49:55
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by baseball55 on November 2, 2018, at 17:08:14
> Oh, I see. I didn't realize it was the gym management themselves who made an issue of the clips.
Yeah. It was an employee of the gym, in the first instance. Someone I hadn't seen before. In the evening. By herself. The tail end of the after-work exercisers. The time when you get the worst of the chatty people. She looked (to me) like a pretty chatty person, herself, and I thought she was employed more for that end, to help distract the chatty gymgoers so they would leave the people trying to train / exercise to do their thing...
That was why I said I would speak to her manager, later. But left at the time (since I was pretty sure I signed something to the effect that I would follow all instructions from employees).
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 20:18:24
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by baseball55 on November 2, 2018, at 17:12:41
> Actually, my favorite thing is to go to the gym in early afternoon when the place is mostly empty. I'm pretty much a solitary exerciser. Maybe because I was such a klutz as a kid and got teased for it. I have never in my life understood team sports or fandom.
Yeah. When I first started I would go around 10:30 am, which was pretty similar to the early afternoon time that you speak of. When I started out I couldn't do anything, really. I was very self conscious and embarrassed. I thought everyone in the gym would be in amazing shape and would know what they were doing and would laugh at me, or whatever. I booked a time with a trainer first off and got shown how to use some of the machines for a program.
I worked that program and increased the weights on the program so it was work for me to do 3x10. I got a new program which involved free weights. I didn't really understand what squats were about and I discovered some dude called Mark Riptoe had written a whole chapter of a book on squats. So I got the book...
Then I discovered the Snatch online. Some crossfit video. A fairly early crossfit video well before it was cool. They posted a bunch of technique videos for athletes, primarily. Becuase crossfit people were involved with training High School or in some instances College athletes. And some of them were pretty athletic and could do a pretty good approximation of Olympic lifts...
Then I found someone who trained in the gym online... And he said to come along and he'd try and help me out. And I did take instruction from him to start with (and I was lucky he was actually (at the time) taking instruction from a guy who used to represent Australia in the Olymipics). And the later guy was pretty knowledgeable generally - and most importantly knowledgeable enough about... Ego... About helping people... Allowing people.... To develop inner confidence and about not bossing them around for the sake of it. He was a decent guy, yeah. And the former turned out to be a bit of a jerk (in a young male kind of a way)... But I learned heaps from him, anyway. He was also into flexibility things and rope climbing and so on... Learned from this guy who used to be there... Kit Laughlin or something... The monkey gym... He did a heap of posture and flexibility stuff... Into barefoot training early on before that was cool...
I learned heaps.
Gymgoers did try and interrupt. Just to chat. Sometimes to pick people up (a meat market sort of a thing). Sometimes just to try and boss people around and control them. What worked about training in Australia is that the people who knew the most were actually in charge and they used their power for good. That's what worked. That's why I could work there.
Here... Only the idiots ever seem to get to be in charge. And they choose to use their power to further promote idiocy. So...
Ya just gotta hide / get away.
I asked the manager specifically...
I said that I was instructed by someone (I left names out -- but I think she probably had been telling everyone within earshot about it for the last few days and they probably didn't have it on camera).... I was instructed by someone who worked there to put clips on. I said I left rather than violating an instruction from an employee, and so now I wanted to have a chat with him about it (this was quietly in his office - with the door open).
- Real clips weight a lot and those crappy clips still weigh a little
- They often (but not always) shift around on the bar so you need to fiddle with them a lot to reset them
- I was lifting rubber weights that were designed to be dropped for a deadlift (not a bench press
- There is nothing about clips on the extensive wall list of rulesI offered to show him what I was doing so there could be no confusion. When I was setting things up I dropped the rubber weight and assessed whether he minded that. He didn't seem particularly pleased - but he let it go (note to self he might start complaining about that down the line).
When I lifted it to my shoulders without clips and held my arms out like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk3PARuBiHY
And started doing little jumps with it - he looked really very uncomfortable indeed (he didn't understand the shoulders are stabilising the bar and not the arms) and he thought tiny little movements would result iln the weights flying off.
I then put the little clips on and started lifting one end of the bar up and shaking it (trying to get the weight to fall off one end) and the clips actually did a really good job of keeping my tiny little weights on the bar (they would have simply fallen off with any real weight). He seemed really very comfortable about my shaking the hell out of it with tiny clips on (whereas I would not want people to ever feel comfortable with tiny little clips that are not manufactured to any proper standard) -- but I'd keep my mouth shut in the gym...
I then unloaded the bar with light (rubber) weights the easiest way I'd been taught. You lift it like a deadlift. Then you intentionally tip it so one of the weight falls off one end. Then you intentionally tip it in a controlled fashion so the other weight falls off the other end. This can be done in a controlled fashion and actually doing it in a controlled fashion strengthens your wrist and your grip strengh and so on. This is actually a really safe way to get that first plate off (there's a jack trick to get more plates off first). Otherwise... You gotta get down really low and upright row the bar and then try and pull the plate off with your other hand -- and people are far more likely to get injured trying to do that.
Anyone who has spent any time in a gym learning how to put the weights away would see that that was safer. In a ... You know it when you see it sense.
Anyway...
He really really really really really really really didn't like that. He seemed to think that the weights could be safely tipped off the bar. So...
I don't think he lifts much.
I can't lift there. The employees will hover around and start invoking the 'health and safety' Gods because they don't know what they think they have been appointed by God to only allow people to do things they feel comfortable with them doing and they have had very little education with respect to... Overcoming their own anxieties about weightlifting.
They are paid to...
Well... They don't seem to be paid for their customer service, clearly.
Yeah.
It's sad...
I wish I had have been into the gym when I visited the US. I remember another student who visited said he did visit the gym. He was the basketball team in there. I really feel really sad, indeed, i didn't get to see some of the best teams in the States in the gym doing their thing.. And just see the gym.
I was never into sports. I enjoy it now. The athletic movement. I am sad that the tv coverage doesn't show the angles I'd really like to see. You don't get to see the crucial bits. You don't get to see different shots of baseball pitches. You don't get to see basketballers land.
I like more amateur coverage (if you can get it). The same athletes at lower level competitions, I mean. Beucase you are more likely to get lots of down-time coverage so you get to see their posture when nobody is looking. That kind of thing.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 20:21:44
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 20:18:24
sorry.. i meant to say that i asked him specifically if there was a time i would be better to train...
i guess what i was hoping (in meeting with him) was that he would say 'yeah, we have a really diverse clientele and it's hard to cater for everyone'.
'i'm in the gym between the hours of x and y. why don't you try training during those hours and i'll tell my staff to back off trying to tell you what to do'.
but he thought: clips on the bar in his gym (just not for the current advertising photo and, of course, i (and others) have been training there for months now nearly daily and i never use clips and others only sometimes)).
so...
the powers that be in charge have spoke.
and that's that.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:12:04
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 20:21:44
It is hard...
I actually learned a lot from here:
Nowdays they make a lot of money from selling suppliments. I think probably in the early days they made a lot of money from selling 'suppliments'...
But they had some really knowledgeable people posting. People who were really very well read on different techniques and programs and the like. People who had trained for many many years. People who had trained others for many many years.
There is the potential for a lot of money to be made... There is a lot of idiocy about. Idiots willing to pay for rubbish. For quick fixes. Idiots peddling stuff.
You need your wits about you to try and distinguish 'quality' information and bunk.
One of the things that was helpful was people would online diary. They would post their training sessions and some of them would post their nutrition. People would log and you could track them over... Years.
Whereas most of the 'science' research is done on people who either can't do whatever movement it is you are interested in learning about or people who lie about what they've done and so on...
Here you have people posting videos of their training sessions. You see them lifting standardised weights for however many reps and the like.
And of course nowdays you can't believe half of what you see becuase photoshop and other things have got to it. People can't tell the difference between genuine... The athlete genuinely did that and something that isn't... Physically?... Athletically?... Plausible.
There were decent people who posted... Probably the lower key people. I mean... Those who were training High School athletes trying to help them get places on college teams (trying to help improve their vertical jump and so on). Like... How people study for entry exams, there are athlete things to train. The beep test and so on...
And injury rehab and injury prevention...
I'm really genuinely interested in this sort of stuff. That's partly why I started with the sport sci... I thought I could get into / get to meet some of the people who knew what they were talking about in NZ... Would at least know enough to see that I know quite a lot and I'm also instructable... But from what I've seen... There isn't really anything here.
I mean... I sussed out physiotherapy because I thought that might be a thing... I went to the Millenium Institute (where the high performance athletes supposedly train)... Looking for... The smaller people... The ones who didn't have natural talent... The ones who had to fight tooth and claw for every scrap of progress... The brains behind the operation... And there either aren't any or (more plausibly) they're well well well hidden away such that I never got to see them.
I went to a talk here about how Glute Max is the rotator cuff of the hip. (That would be like saying latissimus dorsi - large superficial muscle - is the rotator cuff of the shoulder). That's physiotherapy research / physiotherapy academia. I didn't get to see the physio gym, here... But there is Southern Physio working out of the... You guessed it... The swimming gym!!! Yup yup yup. That was why I wanted to speak with the gym manager. Because... Of all these people you see... Doing aqua yoga... All the posters about doing things with the people to help with osteo degeneration of the hip or the spine...
I thought there might be someone who knows in charge.
More fool me. Again.
I'm very genuinely interested in sport science / rehabilitation. But you have to come through from med...
I have particular interests in floor exercises (as in, hanging out on the floor in seated posture and learning to get off the floor with no arms). This is in direct contrast to the district health board 'don't fall down' health target / goal / policy.
I have particular interests in barefoot training (especially after foot injury to prevent hammer toes and claw toes and also to help prevent gangrenous foot in diabetes). People can touch their own toes, typically, when they get down on teh floor and bend their knees. have a little hip mobility. massage their own feet.
Where is more natural to do all this but the gym or a gym space associated with a f*ck*ng swimming pool.
But I've met the 'manager'.
Yeah...
Yeah...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:25:42
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:12:04
oh, i dare say it's becuase of the money / about the corruption (yet again).
see...
we get all the end of supply chain shoes. athletic shoes, i mean. sneakers. you know how you get these crazes... 'minimialist shoes' (which are basically socks that cost, like $300) or 'rocker shoes' (which have really weird platform soles that cost, like $300).
well, what we do, is follow the world in stupid crazes... last.
and this gets subsidised / sponsored by our government and / or by the Accident Compensation Corporation.
See, how it works, is that you have a 'special need' for footwear. This is something they especially encourage in people who cannot afford to buy shoes, actually. If you have a 'special need' for footwear then you get Work and Income (government welfare) or ACC (because of injury you acquired) funds towards the purchase of 'medical' shoes. It's a shoe 'prescription' you see. From this 'specialist' store called Athletes Foot. They hire 'specialist' 'podiatrists' to show you a computer picture of pressure from your feet when you stand on their force plate and on the basis of that and laboratory tests like them taking a ruler to your foot dimensions they will 'prescribe' you a $300 pair of shoes.
Yeah.
The... Damn... I'm trying to remember... The inferior goods. We import these inferior goods and they are peddaled as 'premium product' with 'premium product' price tags and a lot of it comes from government spending. They choose to spend their money on this useless crap.
It's especially odd because you have people living in good climates (I mean, for feet). I think a lot of the athletic proclivity that you see in indigenous people is from their running about a lot on grass and so on with no shoes. You start binding up their feet and... Cripple people. Yeah. You do.
Anyway... ACC has a 'health and safety' rule about wearing shoes in the gym. To promote the interests of...
And we don't seem to beleive in the rotator cuff of teh hip...
I don't know / understand how muscles are reattached after joint replacements. I'm really interested in developing such things for better movement...
But not if the cost of development is intentionally f*ck*ng up however many people on the way...
Intentionally not teaching people how to move / strenghen their body through normal (by which I don't mean statistically average) ranges of motion...
The science is mostly a mess... And idiocy prevails. It's in about as bad a shape as ethics generally in these parts...
Anyway...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:36:45
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:25:42
second row first on the left shows it most clearly. can't find a better picture and can't figure how to link to it better.
that's a relatively new sculpture that appeared central on campus on the new paving stones.
people... depicted as being comprised of basic shapes (replaceable parts). some of them have graduate hat shapes on. most of them have balls in their hip joint.
the statues will wear into a greenish colour. sort of like a greenstone. a greenstone is a semi-precious stone that is too prevalent to be particularly precious... though i guess larger chunks of it... some nice carvings have been done in greenstone for jewellery and ornament by maaori. not heaps because why bother when biggest bully takes it and claims to have made it himself??
most of the art is commissioned... oppressive, typically. this is a good instance. the future of orthopedics for new zealand. the vision...
materials science.... there is another one that is an ode to materials... i can't even find that one. basically.. cheaper and tackier and cheaper and tackier...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:43:23
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:36:45
They are also like compasses (the tool, i mean). The people as... Tools.
Haha.
Means to other peoples ends.
yeah.
not ends in themselves.
i feel bad for calling the manager a 'tool'. i didn't want that to be...
i was hoping i would see him embrace ends that i could get on board with.
but i did not. and i don't want to see him as a tool...
don't want to see him...
won't train there anymore. yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:46:55
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:43:23
though i will check out the swimming at 5am. since i was there at 7am the other day and swam for 40 minutes (which required me to sleep for much of the rest of the day -- damn) and he arrived at 8.
it is possible training from 5:30-6:30 means you are well out of there before the other people have even been worken up by their rowdy kids. the gym opens from 5:30 too... i guess i should see who is there at that time.
also...
one thing i really gotta remember... you typically need to go through at least 3 iterations of 'i am the manager!!' before you get to anyone with any actual authority.
there isn't a structure or a process... you could waste your lives having a Hui with everyone who has nothing better to do all day than Hui all day (meeting). yap yap yap. yup yup yup.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:24:00
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 21:46:55
People who don't work in gyms don't typically try and tell me what to do, anymore.
When I went to the Weightlifting gym, here, the guy did start up... But with an ideology... As a test, I think.
Now that Crossfit is cool we have cues like this:
Jump jump jump with the weight!
pull pull pull the weight as high as you can!
get your shoulders well forwards in front of the bar!And so on.
The last is particularly problematic... Depends on your lever lengths. Depends on whether you plan to lift the weight in the first pull with your back extension (that's how you get meaty lumbar erectors) or whether you plan to get your *ss under it and use leg extension (that's how you get to train without injury over the long haul).
I think he probably started trying to spout false ideology at me in front of his other lifters to see how I would react.
I said (quietly to him) that I was aiming for something different. Getting my hips down on that first pull and primarily using glutes / leg extension on that first part of the lift.
There's a fukcing lengthy as hell dialogue about that between.... I can't remember who... Two American lifters.
At the end of the day...
There's a lot of people going on about modeling and the assumptiosn they build in are so fragile / problematic... You don't want to get lost in that (is what I've laerned most recently from physics this year).
Don't waste time with it.
Of course it's physics at the end of the day but physics (of the sort that you do for years and years and years and years before gaining any real proficiency in it) is so idealised and based on such tight assumptions that don't really hold for the sort of macroscopic system that we're dealing with. conceptual physics.. some sort of gross level understanding: yes.
but generally... there's a sort of experimentation that you can do on yourself in gym conditions and that's far more relevant at the end of the day.
He said I would have to do a few competitions per year and I could get a key to use the gym 24/7. I guess that means I passed the test... Maybe I should go back there... I hear it's become really popular now. They platformed teh whole floor (so you can drop weights wherever you like). I would prefer to see a tidy row of individual work stations (and clear and explicit rules about not walking in front of people who are lifting, not getting in people's clear zones and the like). but... that level of organisation is not possible here.
i guess i'm learning (slowly, the hard way). training at... 5:30am. sigh.
They did have an eleiko women's bar... And I managed to identify it and pull it out when it was hidden right at the very back in a heap far behind a stack of all the other bars... Even with identifying information (the end) removed... Yeah...
I don't see why we should have to hide. It's not fair.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:36:13
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:24:00
At the end of the day Americans are terrible at Weightlifting. The Olympic sport, I mean. Americans simply aren't winning medals at Weightlifting. Don't get me wrong, Americans don't much care about it (don't much care to invest money into developing athletes for the sport) and that's probably got a lot to do with why, but that is the way it is.
The people who know... Eastern Europe, typically. China. I think it might be a little like gymnastics (though gymnastics does capture the american heart a bit and people surely like to watch the gymnastics)...
There is a level of dedication that pays off (eventually) that people don't seem to voluntarily invest in (or be allowed??? to do???) in 'free' countries. I don't know...
If you watch old videos of athletes training (before photoshop and so on) they really move like machines. A degree of precision. If you were to make a grid of the space in 3 dimensions... The people lifting weights... It's exactly the same movement over and over and over with a very high degree of precision. When they are highly trained you can see the muscles move for activation and you can see something of the activation sequence of their muscles. You can see which muscles start at the start of the movement and which take over for the next part of the range of motion...
I guess it's mostly 1 on 1 training where the person knows what their doing (most people can't tell the difference between the people who know and the people who are good salesman) and an athlete with natural ability who is willing to work / be instructable. And that's hard because most of the people with natural ability have been rewarded /reinforced for precisely the wrong things (the things that are easy for them or the things they have no control over). Not their work ethic...
When people are at a certain level of development you can train a few of them at a time... Eventually you can have a lot of them doing their thing because you have taught them to internalise / understand what they are doing...
Anyway...
It's a money thing in the US. I guess it's also a drug regulation thing, too. Most of the genuine pharmaceutical innovation comes not from pharma companies but from... DIY. People willing to experiment on themeselves in the first instance. I'm actually not (have no inner buring desire to achieve immortality or become superhuman). Health... Living a good life... Autonmy... Respect for peoples ends... There are guidelines at the end of the day and (in respectable systems) you have avenues for trying to get those guidelines changed if you want them to be.
Anyway...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:45:30
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:36:13
Drug regulation is an arms race...
I'm not sure how I feel about it.
On the one hand, sport is supposed to be competitive.
I mean, it goes without saying (in my book) you don't break the rules. If the rules say x and y and z substances are banned, then you don't take x and y and z substances.
But when people have made substance q in their basement. Taken it themselves. Logged that they seem to be improving faster than usual. Given it (or sold it to their friends). They seem to be doing better, too. Want some? It isn't banned (yet). That genuinely isn't breaking any rule.
Is that wrong?
I don't see how.
Blood transfusions... For the cyclists... All the benefits of altitude training! I think that one is dodgier. Partly because of the issue of where they got the blood. If it was donated (paid or otherwise) by people who thought it would be used to save a life.... That would be wrong. If it is your own blood... That's a bit harder. But rules say: No. Not cool. So there we go.
You can whine and complain about how many underwater Dolphin kicks FINA lets you do on your breaststroke pullout - but thems the rules. You can similarly whine and complain about whatever banned substance being banned: But thems the rules.
The substances that there isn't rules about?
I really do have a certain kind of empathy for the idea that: Game on. That's what drives innovation. Innovative techniques in teh gym (hey lets try sets of 6 instead of 5 and see how that works out for us) and innovative medications, food combinations and whatever, too. Yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:53:47
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:45:30
Though I guess you gotta balance that against harms especially if we are talking about a coach or manager making decisions about what happens with the athletes on his team.
Yeah.
There's also hard cases, I understand.
I don't know the rules on banned substances... Retrospectively, I mean. There's the time it takes for a cycle or a dosing reigime to clear from the body so it isn't detectable in tests, anymore. Then there's the possibility of getting people cycles of things early enough in their development so as for it to not be detectble around the time of competition.
E.g., growth hormone for basketballers during early adolescence to boost the growth spurt before college.
Most Olympic Sports (at least) there are quite a lot of structures... You need to train the sport for mnay years. Seasons... Competitions through the seasons... You test the elite ones (particularly) and you can detect whether some thing you have reason to care about starts to alter significantly for that athlete...
It's becoming harder... It's becoming safer...
Yeah.
I went to a talk that was really cool. This chick to developed a bioloical assay to detect something to do with synthetically produces testosterone. so it could be employed by olypic testing committees or by horseracing testing committees and so on...
But in the roll-out (you know, for the start-up) she had to go visit the chemistry people who already had contracts for a bunch of drug testing things... Treading on their toes potentially, you see. Any money that goes her way is an opportunity cost for them with respect to diverting it their way, you see...
And there's a bunch of money in dem horses yup yup yup.
Sigh.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 23:05:29
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 22:53:47
Yeah... Nah... You have duty of care over the kids. To care for their welfare. It sucks to think that some kids who work really hard might be conned into believing that they *need* to take some substance that could really harm them if they are serious about their sport. That isnt' acceptable, at all. The kids need to believe that the structures are in place such that they will be rewarded for the *right* things. Yeah.
It used to be really painful for me to watch netball in New Zealand (a woman's sport, primarily). Because they used to have their knees all taped up. And because their landing mechanics were awful. Slamming through their knees and their lumbar spines.
Now, the elite teams are a joy to watch. Their knees are naked and they land really well. Precise. Precision hop steps when they land. They land mostly in a way that is safe and repeatable.
The junior teams are rather harder to watch.
The play on a hard surface you see. A basketball court. Or, when young often outdoor tarseal. Like basketball, yeah. They don't jump as high... But they have many more repetitions of jumping and a lot of them are one legged lands.
I've been watching some.. Weird... 5 aside or whatever. And people from smaller (supposedly more developing than us) nations... And the poorer the country the more taping and so on they have.
Remember basketball boots? How much money some kids will pay for Air Jordans? Yeah.
The coloured k-tape.
More recent Olypics have been more.... Honest. It's athletic tape (which is plenty expensive as it is) but... It's just athletic tape to apply a bit of pressure which removes a tweaky kind of intermittant pain that is attention-grabby and... Stabilises... Calms the muscle, slightly. That's all. No magic. Little bit of compression and the muscle calms.
Like Grandin pointed out however many years ago.
Anyway...
California paid a small fortune (and visa and citizenship I think) for some retired Bulgarian weightlifting coaches and so on...
And people can't tell the difference between gimmick and genuine knowledge...
Whatever... It's hard to say. It's really a long-haul sport because it takes years and years and years and years to grow muscle. And the muscle won't grow properly (to support proper movement pattern) unless you move through that pattern over and over and over and over for years and years and years.
So... We'll see what the US weightlifting trees do in a few Olympics yet...
But I don't have particularly high hopes. Lets, just say. Yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2018, at 1:48:27
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2018, at 23:05:29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6CB5ZnDlQ
that's one of my favourites (look ma - no clips!)
i am aware that steroids are / were rampant... but steroids (and the like) are typically to help you RECOVER from training. they don't actually do the actual work for you. all the steroids in the world can't teach you to move properly or make your muscles grow in a proportionate way.
some people can't see the asthetic of the movement / of the proportionality of the muscles...
anyway...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2018, at 2:03:31
In reply to Re: and another gym bites the dust..., posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2018, at 1:48:27
it is funny to me because my interpretation is...
they start with good, honest work. nice training weights for them to work their muscles / work the movement. and they move perfectly.
then they overload them so their form becomes sloppy. there can be a bit of value to that - when you are straining your muscles properly in the effort to move properly. but if you do too much of it your muscles forget how to move properly and they'll start to move sloppy when you lighten the load, again.
then they... well... they start doing a bunch of sponsored stuff with... mixed utility. they start off trying to sell smith machines (with a fixed bar path) and one of them actually managed to move properly despite the contraption. then they move with greater or lesser precision (of the form we saw to start with) on the... nautilis? I think that was what it was... an atlas machine... I can't remember my history of weightlifting...
there was a push to sell machines, you see. to limit the knowledge and to try and push the products.
elieko doesn't even make barbells anymore? hard to tell... started with premium product... now i think the americans got hold of it and it looks all but sunk. olympic weightlifting equipment is.... back to china, i think... Elieko is just your $5,000 set for your crossfit box because that's what the people will pay for. the people who pay for paleo water (what's that? coconut water from fiji? people are telling the fijians that coconuts are bad for them with all the saturated fat - in these parts. like butter. you know, melts in the mouth but solidifies in your arteries).
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.