![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on September 23, 2004, at 20:07:32
In reply to Re: More bad news, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2004, at 16:32:38
Dinah,
I'm so glad you made that appt. with the geriatric social worker. Hopefully he or she will be able to provide some valuable resources. In my city, there is the Council on Aging, which is kind of the gateway to many different agencies and programs for older adults. I'm so glad you will be getting access to help.I didn't read the entire thread, so if this has already come up, I apologize. You know, you may want to consider letting Adult Protective Services or whatever the equivalent agency is in your area step in. They can do an assessment and make recommendations which might take some of the "blame" off of you. Perhaps your parents will still be very angry, but it might give you a buffer zone. Sometimes the rehab therapists can play this role of "bad guy" as well.
I imagine this must be so difficult on so very many levels. It is not easy at all to become and sustain being a caregiver for parents. The dynamics, even in emotionally healthy families are complex. It sounds like this is triggering for you, and who needs that? I know my time with my mom was "toxic", but I kept telling myself "that's what families do." But you know? Not all families do that. And you have to do what's best for you and your own family first.
Oh dinah, I wish I could somehow make this burden lighter. It's so sad and heavy at times. I hope you are able to find a few minutes or more each day for dinah time. You deserve it, and need it now more than ever.
((((dinah))))
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 23, 2004, at 20:12:11
In reply to Re: More bad news » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 23, 2004, at 20:07:32
By the way, Geropsych is my speciality area, so please feel free to email me with anything...questions, concerns, rants, etc. I know the caregiving from the giver end, from therapy with clients and caregivers, and from theory. I'm no expert, but I do have some knowledge and resources that might help.
(That's me trying to practice selling my skills...probably need to work on the "I'm no expert" part) But I do mean it sincerely.
gardenergirl 88 at yahoo dot com
:-)
GG
Posted by fayeroe on September 23, 2004, at 21:03:54
In reply to Re: More bad news, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2004, at 16:32:38
Dinah, where I live, the physician would call in the adult protective services for you. Do you think that he might do that? Perhaps if you approached him about that, it might help you. I also work with geriatric patients and am dealing with a wife/mother now that is an absolute terror. Everyone in the family is scared to death of her. Her husband is dying and she's busy cooking up ideas concerning her other family members. She's very heavy duty! So, that said, I know what you're going through. Please know that there are services that can help with this and do ask the physician if he would make that one call. Frequently, an older patient is much more responsive to a social worker/health worker than a family member. It is sometimes easier for them to "give way", when it is an impartial person that is there to help them. Good luck and I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
Posted by daisym on September 24, 2004, at 2:09:07
In reply to Re: More bad news, posted by fayeroe on September 23, 2004, at 21:03:54
Dinah,
Families are complex and old feelings remain difficult, even at our age. I think you should call in Merry Maids and get them to clear everything out. It is the most healthy thing you could do. Because even if she doesn't come home in a wheel chair, she needs it to be sterile to heal.
I do want to remind you that there is a dementia that can show up for diabetics, especially when an infection is present. This makes them even more irritable and less able to make decisions grounded in reality. (I hope I'm not remembering this wrong, as far a who has diabetes.)
I can only imagine how hard this is. Take care of yourself too.
Posted by mair on September 24, 2004, at 13:08:44
In reply to Re: More bad news, posted by daisym on September 24, 2004, at 2:09:07
Dinah
I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time. Diabetes has immobilized my father as well and he is big and difficult to move. Everytime he lands in the hospital, he usually has to go to a convelescent place before he can come home, just to rehab sufficiently for him to be able to lift his weight up out of a chair, because he's certainly too heavy for any one person to lift. After that he needs either a wheelchair or a walker to move around the house.
Dealing with him puts a great deal of mental and physical strain on my step mother who has a whole host of her own problems. During one particularly long stint in rehab, she told me she didn't want him home unless he agreed to certain conditions like going to adult day care a couple of times a week to give her a break, and not trying to do certain things that he really wasn't capable of doing. With our help, the social worker at the rehab place drew up a contract that my Dad had to sign as a condition of going home. It seemed to work.
I think someone here suggested that you may be able to enlist the help of a physical therapist, or someone like that. If your mother does need the amputation, chances are she'll end up in a rehab place for awhile before she can go home. I would try to get the phys.therapist to require the removal of the stuff as a condition to her leaving. It sounds like Pt would agree to it as being necessary anyway.
I'm inclined to think that trying to get her to agree to this on her own, or trying to address the problem after she's gotten home, will get you nowhere.
Mair
PS: I'm so much more fortunate than you in that my father is enough of a narcisist to love having any number of people hovering over him. As far as he's concerned, the more phys therapists and home health nurses who come by the house, the better.
Posted by 64bowtie on September 24, 2004, at 19:22:52
In reply to Revealing family secrets, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2004, at 9:48:22
(((Dinah))),
You know by now I care toooo much to be hurtful toward you. So whatever I might say here is my attempt to be helpful and constructive. I have known folks who were "path people" hoarders over the past 30 years. This includes, much to my "blushing" embarrasment, a gal friend (long ago in college). She claimed storage companies were just a rip-off, and she needed stuff from time to time. I outgrew her excuses, and her.
For anyone naive to the problem, this is not clutter!!! Clutter can probably be cleaned up in a couple of hours.
Story 1. A friend of mine told me his odessy day by day as it unfolded. He helped clean up for a reclusive elderly lady who had a four unit apartment complex, living in one unit. She had passed away amongst her stacks of precious clutter and for three weeks, her cats "got hungry". There were some cats that had died from disease or starvation long before amongst the stacks of stuff. A couple had been crushed when stacks fell on them.
It took four roll-off style dumpsters to collect all the stuff from the four apartments. They found $8,000 in cash and $30,000 in uncashed checks amongst the "C L U T T E R". The newspaper interviewed the relatives who unanimously related that this lady had an IRRATIONAL FEAR of being "without", so she kept EVERYTHING!
The clean-up lasted two weeks. My friend almost became OCD himself feeling he couldn't ever take enough showers to be clean again. He had been a Marine Master Sargeant in Viet Nam, so he adapted, improvised and overcame.
Story 2. I have a friend I look in on a couple of times each week, who sometimes can't get to his front door through the cluttered stacks and duplicate furniture pieces. He had a stroke recently that has left his tear duct glands not functioning. He claimed he needed $4 for eye drops (he's a chronic gambler). I found 3 eye dropper bottles on the floor in his kitchen amongs papers and un-openned mail under his kitchen table.
Will he go blind before he changes his ways? I hope not, but probably. He is 82 and an ex-fighter pilot from World War 2. We all admire him in many ways. He didn't start hoarding till 10 years ago. Now he can't manage and will surely die amongst his "STUFF". I hope not, but fear so!
(((Dinah))), none of what I said here is for entertainment. This is "Blood and Guts". No matter how tyrannical your Mom may appear to you all, the local health department can set her straight without you fearing reprisal. You will be praised by all for being "sturdy"; as sturdy to your family as you appear to us herein. Trust me. Its not as if you are trying to steal inheritance money by selling off her precious "gems". You'll be helping your Dad with his quality of life, a little.
Rod
Posted by TexasChic on September 24, 2004, at 19:31:08
In reply to I'm going to rat out my parents. Any thoughts?, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2004, at 7:18:32
I was my Grandmother's caregiver for 7 years. I just recently moved out and now my Mom takes care of her. I found the Social Worker to be the absolute best person to go to. They know all the ins and outs of the system and can get you the help you need.
As for feeling guilty, there were things I felt guilty about because my Grandmother didn't want to do them (like go to the hospital when she was extremely ill). But I realized, if she was dementia and illness free, she would want these things done. For some reason it made me feel better to think of her spirit after she moves on, with no more illness to cloud her mind, and how she would see what I did was for her benefit. And she be grateful.
I think of my deceased Dad that way too, not like he was, but how he would be in spirit, out of the body that made him mentally ill.
I know if I got so extremely ill that I could no longer make rational decisions, I would hope someone would do what was best for me, rather than leave me to do harm to myself.
Posted by TexasChic on September 24, 2004, at 20:19:53
In reply to Re: I'm going to rat out my parents. Any thoughts? » Dinah, posted by TexasChic on September 24, 2004, at 19:31:08
I also have a problem with hoarding. It hasn't progressed to severe, but I realized the extent of it when I moved out and I had to deal with bags and bags of bills dating back several years. This had been going on for a while and I knew it was a problem, but when I had to let my Mom sort through it and throw stuff away, I KNEW it was bad. I cried and screamed and threw a fit, but in the end, I think its the only way it would have gotten done. If you're interested, there is a story of famous brothers who were hoarders named Homer and Langley Collyer. If you google them, its pretty interesting, but kind of gruesome. They actually died because of it. I don't know if that's something good or bad for you to read in your current situation, but when I read it, it made me realize what a serious problem it was, while at the same time making me feel better because I wasn't that bad! It also shows how dangerous it can be in the extreme. But don't read it if you think it will upset you.
Posted by Dinah on September 25, 2004, at 22:52:46
In reply to Re: Another thought, posted by TexasChic on September 24, 2004, at 20:19:53
Because I really can't do any of these really great ideas. If the doctor doesn't do anything with the information, things aren't likely to change.
My father and I were talking about it, and we just can't see any way to make it work without involving government officials. Even if we mustered the courage to throw out *just* the newspapers and magazines (and we'd never manage to get up the nerve to throw anything else away) and cancel the paper, my mother would just order the local paper herself, and maybe add the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal and buy out Publishers Clearing House entire line. I *know* that OCD is a disease, but with her it seems more like a battle she's willing to fight to win at all costs. Like everything else in her life. She maintained the same stubbornness at work and got fired. Her desire to win at all costs has affected her relationships. And she never realizes that winning the battles causes her to lose the war.
Nor can I hire a health worker for my dad against his will. He'd manage to drive off anyone I found, even if I got the courage to do anything about it, which I won't because I'm a spineless worm.
I'm so ashamed to admit that there is no way on earth that I'm going to do anything about anything other than reluctantly and half heartedly obey some of their commands, while hiding from the others.
Posted by Susan47 on September 25, 2004, at 23:15:55
In reply to I'm so ashamed, posted by Dinah on September 25, 2004, at 22:52:46
You're not a "spineless worm", love. You're doing everything you can to help your parents, who are difficult people and have had a lot of power over you in the past. Your road isn't easy, and I can see where mine will lead me in exactly the same direction when my own very stubborn, independent, authoritative and intimidating parents need help and won't admit it. I'm probably reading too much into it all, but I'm watching your thread with great interest, in anticipation of the time when I'll be in your shoes. Take heart. You're doing all a person can do.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 25, 2004, at 23:24:13
In reply to I'm so ashamed, posted by Dinah on September 25, 2004, at 22:52:46
Dinah,
You are in a terrible tough situation. I'm so sorry you are caught up in this.(((((dinah)))))
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:43:09
In reply to Re: I'm so ashamed » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on September 25, 2004, at 23:15:55
I'm dreadfully sorry. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. :(
I keep trying to remind myself over and over that it's worse for them. I'm not the one stuck in the wheelchair and dependent on others for my basic needs. And I'm not the one faced with at the least losing a part of a foot. Not to mention everything else.
But it doesn't seem to be working. :(
Risperdal helps some though.
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:48:30
In reply to Re: I'm so ashamed » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on September 25, 2004, at 23:24:13
My mom's surgery is Monday. At least after that, I'll know exactly what I'm facing. Her surgeon seems to be way more optimistic than her internist.
On the positive side, my brother seems to be in fine spirits. It's good to see him looking fit and happy enough.
Oh, and another positive, Harry seems to feel much better now that I've added a steroid to his drug cocktail and reinstated the Metamucil. His tail is up and wagging again.
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:59:49
In reply to Thanks » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:48:30
I get embarassed at the unrelenting blackness of my own thoughts when I start to write them down and am embarassed into thinking more positively.
That worked with my pdoc once. I called him with suicidal impulses when my therapist was unavailable, and the act of sharing the thoughts with him was so unbelievably embarassing that the thoughts just went away.
Posted by crazymaisie on September 26, 2004, at 5:02:24
In reply to Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:59:49
hi Dinah
i'm sorry you're going through all this, it sounds more stressful than i could bear.
i know this is really tough for you, but it sounds as though you're carrying so much guilt on your shoulders. i think the only thing i really wanted to say is that your parents have to make these decisions for themselves and while you can help and advise them and maybe see things a bit more clearly from the outskirts (isn't it always so much clearer from the outside) their choices are their own. and i think you should absolve yourself from as much guilt and resposibility as you can. they are adults, after all, and as long as they are capable of making decisions by themselves there's only so much you can do.i hope this makes sense and i hope you can be as kind to yourself in all this as can be. it's difficult to watch people you care about do something that seems so obviously to be the wrong thing, but sometimes you have to just do that, watch them do it if they insist upon it against all advice.
i hope this doesn't sound too cold. i'm speaking as someone who has removed my parents from my life because they are too toxic, and that's not a road i would recommend to anybody, but i do believe that sometimes you have to just let go. you're already a much better daughter than i am by being there and caring for and about them.
be good to yourself
maisie
Posted by TexasChic on September 26, 2004, at 9:33:21
In reply to Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:59:49
Don't be so hard on yourself Dinah. Just the fact that you are so distressed shows the extent of your concern. You will do what you think best at the time, and to expect anything else is expecting more than humanly possible.
I would still suggest talking with a Social Worker. They deal with things like this every day believe it or not. They are used to dealing with every type of person and situation there is (or at least know someone who has that can advise them). Stop putting it all on your shoulders and instead go to someone who is trained to handle this. There's no reason to keep going it alone when there are resources available to help you. If nothing else, you will at least know you've done everything possible to help them.
Posted by 64Bowtie on September 26, 2004, at 9:42:28
In reply to I'm so ashamed, posted by Dinah on September 25, 2004, at 22:52:46
When I found how profoundly obligations and expectations messed with my life....
Wait a minute! My life? That's it! This is my life, and I only have one!!!
....I started seeing others forcing me this way and that with a twist of a phrase. They didn't have to hook a joystick wired to my a*s to get me to do stuff. I did it simply because I felt obligated, and/or, I felt like I was waiting for them to give me what they promised.
(((Dinah))), what is it that your parents have each promised to you and you are simply waiting for them to deliver? What are the still unfinished goodies you so crave? Why are the stakes so high that you can't escape with your life intact?
I had to ask myself these questions several times, as if I were a monkey, until I got the jist of what the question meant. Weren't the embodiment of the answers to my questions actually my demons? Wasn't I being blackmailed into pseudo-survival to make someone elses world work for them at the cost of my life to me? Yep!
Not no more no how!
I don't get blackmailed so easily anymore. I know I sound like a space-alien sometimes. Sadly I didn't come to Babble fully fledged. Still, that said, do you get blackmailed by your expectations of the promises of each of your parents, vieled promises or not, hooked by a sublime obligation you can't seem to shake. That's just blackmail all over again, only very personal, and sometimes very subtle. I now have most of my life back. The rest is happening....
If so, we are more alike than you may be willing to admit. We all herein are alike in this way. The whole world might be working this way and Hollywood movies have it all wrong! Obligations and Expectations just don't work for adults. The stakes get raised and our internal demons mess with our feelings and blackmail sets in like gangrene.
(((Dinah))), please see yourself from my vista point for a just a minute. Please. I see you in suffering pain and want so much to take it from you. I won't lie or be inappropriate to you. I will not promise anything to you and will not obligate you with (one way) demands. I can love you without obligation (approval feels just like love, when you meet your obligations... approval is conditional but feels good). I am not so space-alien as this first sounds or I wouldn't be here today.
Rod
Posted by Susan47 on September 26, 2004, at 9:43:43
In reply to Oh my. » Susan47, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:43:09
If my father goes in good health, as I suspect he will, he's the type who would do himself in before he had to depend on anybody, then most of what I anticipate won't happen.
There was a time last year when he thought he might be going completely blind (he's been blind in one eye already since he was about 13) and he was jokingly saying he wouldn't allow that.
I don't know how it would feel to have a parent suicide because they didn't want to be taken care of. There must be huge issues of self-denial in an act like that.
I'm glad your parents are allowing your help, to some degree. And I hope it gets better, but if it gets worse first, keep posting.
Here's hugs to beef your spirits up a bit. ((((Dinah)))))
Posted by 64Bowtie on September 26, 2004, at 11:55:03
In reply to Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:59:49
Thoughts, driven by feelings, can come, and they can go. Wouldn't it be so nice to have some say in the process?
Rod
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 18:27:33
In reply to Re: Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit » Dinah, posted by crazymaisie on September 26, 2004, at 5:02:24
No it doesn't sound cold. It sounds like what I need to hear. As long as they aren't technically certifiable, they are responsible adults in charge of their own destinies.
Maybe I need to spend some time thinking about what sort of boundaries I can morally keep. And talking to the social worker.
Posted by Gabbix2 on September 26, 2004, at 18:40:50
In reply to Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 0:59:49
> I get embarassed at the unrelenting blackness of my own thoughts when I start to write them down and am embarassed into thinking more positively.
>
Oh, I can so relate to that! Unfortunately for me it has to be said or written to someone else to work, and then I just feel silly. I tried
sending myself an e-mail a few times -- it didn't work :(
Posted by Skittles on September 26, 2004, at 18:48:19
In reply to Re: Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit » crazymaisie, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2004, at 18:27:33
Dinah, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your sharing this experience with us. At 30, I've been wondering when I'd stop feeling that my parents had such a hold over me (it seems like they share some of your parents' negative traits). You've helped me see that it'll never happen unless I do something about it. Maybe if I can figure out those boundaries now, life will be easier for me later. As an only child, I think I need to get a plan in place right away so I won't be so overwhelmed as they get older.
Know that you are in my thoughts. I am sending you warm wishes and hoping that every day you discover little reserves of strength and courage you didn't know you had. You are a remarkable woman.
Posted by 64Bowtie on September 27, 2004, at 13:20:17
In reply to Re: Hmmm.. Unexpected Babble benefit » Dinah, posted by Skittles on September 26, 2004, at 18:48:19
> Dinah, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your sharing this experience with us. [[[At 30, I've been wondering when I'd stop feeling that my parents had such a hold over me]]] (it seems like they share some of your parents' negative traits). You've helped me see that it'll never happen unless I do something about it. [[[Maybe if I can figure out those boundaries now, life will be easier for me later.]]] As an only child, I think I need to get a plan in place right away so I won't be so overwhelmed as they get older.
><<< Thank yourself first, also thank you for connecting the dots...
> Know that you are in my thoughts. I am sending you warm wishes and hoping that every day you discover little reserves of strength and courage you didn't know you had. You are a remarkable woman.
<<< Three cheers for (((Dinah)))
hip-hip-hooray
hip-hip-hooray
hip-hip-hoorayRod
Posted by Dinah on September 27, 2004, at 16:38:45
In reply to I'm so ashamed, posted by Dinah on September 25, 2004, at 22:52:46
I'm surprised at how much compassion I feel for her, even though she did say she told them she wanted them to save the leg until my father dies in a short time. The *doctor* doesn't think my father is necessarily going to die in a short time, but she keeps saying it over and over including in front of him. But still, I know how independent she is and she sounded like a little kid when she talked about losing her leg. It made me want to take her in my arms and hold her.
Posted by Dinah on September 27, 2004, at 17:09:04
In reply to They just told my mom., posted by Dinah on September 27, 2004, at 16:38:45
My mother just called in absolute hysterics about being asked to sign a consent form to take off her leg below the knee.
I managed to calm her down considerably by reminding her how much her doctor has fought in the past to save her toes. If he fights so hard to save her toes, wouldn't he fight that much harder to save her leg? And only take it as a very last resort?
And she listened! She calmed down considerably and is considering signing it. She wants to write in "only as a last resort" but I told her that even if the hospital doesn't allow that that the main thing was that she trust her doctor.
Wow.
I'm stunned.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.