Psycho-Babble Social Thread 283883

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Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS woodworks

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 23:16:45

In reply to Re: CORRELATION BETWEEN IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS? kc8ntp, posted by woodworks on November 25, 2003, at 16:41:39

> > Michelle:
> >
> > First I will tell you,an average I.Q. is 100, which you should have known with an I.Q. of 127. I.Q. is mental age\real age * 100, which for those with just a little understanding of basic algabra, that would mean the average was 100. I am a genius with an I.Q. of 170. I will tell you, my intelligence comes from being home-schooled. However, because I was home-schooled, and didn't have very much social contact, I have a great range of mental disorders. I have social anxiety disorder, panic disorder with agoraphobia, and bi-polar disorder. I would not give up my I.Q. to be rid of these disorders, since I can get through them, but could not get over being stupid.
> >
> > John
>
>
> Hey John--
>
> Read this earlier today and had not planned to follow up, but I've thought about it a lot and I just have to ask, if you don't mind--
>
>
> You credit home-schooling for your intelligence and multiple mental disorders. Were you always home-schooled, or were you in public school for a while?
>
> I ask because although I've never come across anyone else who is as emotionally vulnerable as I am, I think my daughter (now age 6) takes after me in this way. For myself, I went exclusively to public school, which became increasingly difficult from Jr. High on. I think I would have loved home-schooling, and been well-served by it intellectually, but unlike you, I would be more than happy to trade in some IQ points for better social skills, and after reading your posting, I'm wondering if my mental health wouldn't be in worse condition if I had missed out on all that public high school misery. (This is a shockingly novel idea for me!)
>
> I had always thought that I would like to investigate home-schooling for my daughter, but was thinking more about starting her on it after 6th grade or so--now she is in 1st grade in public school and loving it.
>
> Thanks in advance for any feedback you might have--
>
> D
>

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:31:10

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS woodworks, posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 23:16:45

"First I will tell you,an average I.Q. is 100, which you should have known with an I.Q. of 127"

I have to say.. that hvaing a high IQ does NOT equate with having large amounts of knowledge. I have a recently tested IQ of 128, yet I didn't know 100 was average.. I presumed the average would change depending on what group was being tested.. eg, The UK or Outer Mongolia etc

I once worked with some of the most intelligent people in my industry.. every single one had a genius IQ. Yet the vast majority had no real life experience, and only knew alot about their particular subject.

No ones knows something until they learn it. So please don't tell people they should know something just because of their IQ.

Nikki

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by almondjoy on November 26, 2003, at 15:41:26

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:31:10

I think IQ measures the capacity to learn, not the amount of knowledge you have learned...tests over information that you already know are achievement tests like in school. Also, scientists think everyone's IQ has a range it could be from genetics, and where you end up falling in that range is due to environment. So schooling wouldn't raise or lower IQ much that it would be otherwise but might a little.

And I have an IQ of 126 but would trade a few in a second...ignorance is bliss.

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by slinky on November 26, 2003, at 22:10:31

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by almondjoy on November 26, 2003, at 15:41:26

IQ ? Doesn't matter.
I'm supposed to have a high one but I'm as dense as dense can be.

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by pixygoth on November 27, 2003, at 6:04:48

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by NikkiT2 on November 26, 2003, at 10:31:10

Just want to add that the idea of average IQ varying between countries sounds dangerous to me... after all not all asians are brainiacs and not all black people are gangsters... huh?
Careful, that's all.
Oh, and as for me, I wish that I had been home schooled. Being ostracised for being intelligent (146-52 range test results) was so out of my normal experience of things that I couldn't deal with it at all and I think that has a lot to do with my problems now. I mean with normAL BULLYING YOU CAN GIVE BACK, BUT REALLY THINCK whoops caps
really dumb people cannot be put off by the insults a smart person can think of. They don't understand that they should be hurt? Anyway I was screwed. Worst school in the district. While it has taught me much about the perils of poverty and the sh*t most people live with, it also has me veruy very miserable about how many people are actually beyoind help.
S

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by Jai on November 27, 2003, at 9:16:51

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS woodworks, posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 23:16:45

I would not give up my I.Q. to be rid of these disorders, since I can get through them, but could not get over being stupid.
>
Now why does the choice swing from being 170 I.Q. to being stupid? There are lots of variations in between.
Jai

 

iq shmikeyou

Posted by sienna on November 27, 2003, at 12:51:24

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by Jai on November 27, 2003, at 9:16:51

its interesting how many people have come and posted iqs. its like we are all compelled. why do we feel like we need to do that? Ive been tested a few times and mine has varied with my state of mental health. BUT when my depression/anxiety etc were worse, i scored much much lower.

Plus, i am very curious where the normal people are. I mean, there are only like 2.275%
of the population is above 130 and hardly any of those even are above 145. (only 3 people in a 1000 are 160 or above. ) i guess the normal people dont want to post maybe because the feel inadequate or something with all the geniuses and gifted here.

I dont know. Im just making some observations. In any case I dont think IQ means very much.

SIenna

 

Re: iq shmikeyou sienna

Posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2003, at 13:00:37

In reply to iq shmikeyou, posted by sienna on November 27, 2003, at 12:51:24

You're right. IQ means nothing what so ever.

Its all quite stupid. But I posted mine, as I was expecting an "yeah you probably have an IQ of 20" kind of reply!! Too many years on the net I guess *lol*

And I too score totally different and differing levels of illness. Anxiety and I score very low and I panic over the time for each question, and the pressure in unbearable, so instead rational thinking, I just random guess to get it over with quicker *l*

Nikki x

 

Re: iq shmikeyou

Posted by Rach on November 27, 2003, at 20:37:58

In reply to Re: iq shmikeyou sienna, posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2003, at 13:00:37

There are many different IQ tests, some in which they rank you differently to others. So on one scale, 100 might be average, and on another, 90 might be average, or 110, or 250...

it depends on the test. I don't believe there's one standardized test. Therefore when people post their IQ of 110 - it might be average, it might be above average, and it has no correlation to the person who posted their score of 130, unless you both did exactly the same test. Under the same conditions. Allowing for the margin of error.

Blah! Stats suck.

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by Destroyo on November 27, 2003, at 23:53:02

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS woodworks, posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 23:16:45

I know I've rather burned my bridges here (a bridge to HELL, no regrets), but let me make a parting recommendation: Daniel Golman's WONDERFUL book, Emotional Intelligence. It helped me understand my fellow humans, and me own bad se'f, somewhat better. A great book!

 

Re: iq shmikeyou sienna

Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:27:14

In reply to iq shmikeyou, posted by sienna on November 27, 2003, at 12:51:24

> its interesting how many people have come and posted iqs. its like we are all compelled. why do we feel like we need to do that?

Because if you do score a non-typical score, it feels like you've been identified as being significantly different than your peers, but like many have pondered, what is the meaning of this number? What significance could it possibly have?

> Ive been tested a few times and mine has varied with my state of mental health. BUT when my depression/anxiety etc were worse, i scored much much lower.
>
> Plus, i am very curious where the normal people are. I mean, there are only like 2.275%
> of the population is above 130 and hardly any of those even are above 145. (only 3 people in a 1000 are 160 or above. ) i guess the normal people dont want to post maybe because the feel inadequate or something with all the geniuses and gifted here.

If anyone with a high IQ number is interested, you might want to track down Mensa, an organization for the extremely high IQ people. Just for the record, there are plumbers and doctors and drifters and millionaires. Just like any group identified on a single criterion, all other criteria are totally varied.

> I dont know. Im just making some observations. In any case I dont think IQ means very much.
>
> SIenna

The tests are flawed, but they're the best we've got. When I studied psychometrics (basically, psych testing of all sorts), we looked at the assumptions underlying IQ tests, among others (the MMPI is fascinating), and there isn't even agreement on what intelligence is....so measures of it are inherently more abstract than the ill-defined assumptions upon which the testing itself is based.

Lar

 

intelligence vs I.Q.

Posted by Jai on November 28, 2003, at 7:20:58

In reply to Re: iq shmikeyou sienna, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:27:14

Plus, i am very curious where the normal people are. i guess the normal people dont want to post maybe because the feel inadequate or something with all the geniuses and gifted here.
>
There is some distress about I.Q.'s for those of us who have lower than 130. My family has stressed how important this number is...my sister tested in the 99% in grade school and you'd have thought god had decended and was now living my sister's brain. It put a heavy burden on her and then the rest of us had to live up to that I.Q. I came along and was in the 52%. That was just one of the many dissapointments my presence brought into being. My younger sister didn't speak till she was older...she was completely intimidated. They thought she was mentally slow. But as it turned out we were all brilliant in our own ways. She was very deep...deep. Not a surface thinker at all...so testing was not the way to measure her intelligence. I was born seeing backwards/mirror. So my testing was challenged by that problem...as well as a few other problems.
My sister is in Mensa as is my son. And god bless my mother she wanted me tested after we had had an interesting discussion where I displayed some depth of understanding...it almost looked like she might like if this was true.
> The tests are flawed, but they're the best we've got. When I studied psychometrics (basically, psych testing of all sorts), we looked at the assumptions underlying IQ tests, among others (the MMPI is fascinating), and there isn't even agreement on what intelligence is....so measures of it are inherently more abstract than the ill-defined assumptions upon which the testing itself is based.
>
gosh Lar, another topic you studied. Your knowledge is so vast...I totally enjoy that.
Jai

 

Re: intelligence vs I.Q. Jai

Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 8:09:00

In reply to intelligence vs I.Q., posted by Jai on November 28, 2003, at 7:20:58

> > The tests are flawed, but they're the best we've got. When I studied psychometrics (basically, psych testing of all sorts), we looked at the assumptions underlying IQ tests, among others (the MMPI is fascinating), and there isn't even agreement on what intelligence is....so measures of it are inherently more abstract than the ill-defined assumptions upon which the testing itself is based.
> >
> gosh Lar, another topic you studied.

I have a B.Sc. in psych. Yes, that does exist.

> Your knowledge is so vast...I totally enjoy that.
> Jai

Not so much if we were playing Trivial Pursuit.... unless you were on my team, of course.

Lar

 

Re: iq shmikeyou Larry Hoover

Posted by Dinah on November 28, 2003, at 8:49:17

In reply to Re: iq shmikeyou sienna, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2003, at 6:27:14

I'd love to hear more about the MMPI, if you ever feel the desire. I am fascinated by the idea that you could possibly tell so much about someone by a multiple choice test, but since they got me just about right I can't help but believe.

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 16:30:37

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by pixygoth on November 27, 2003, at 6:04:48

IMHO---
Hopefully, tests used in different places have adujustments to eliminate cultural biases, etc. But I bet some of the most often used tests do have cultural biases anyway, even if the test designers work very hard to try to eliminate them. So IQ scores could differ from population to population using the same test, but it doesn't mean their intelligence level differs. In other words, IQ score is just a snapshot estimate of one's intelligence based on responses to a particular test on a particular day under particular conditions. It can be very useful information. But it isn't the exact same thing as intelligence per se. And, it should never be the sole measure used to size up a person's capacity to learn.

 

Re: intelligence vs I.Q. Jai

Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 16:33:44

In reply to intelligence vs I.Q., posted by Jai on November 28, 2003, at 7:20:58

Re: Mensa testing---I may be mistaken, but I think the IQ tests used by Mensa are quite different than standard IQ tests used by psychologists, and they stress non-verbal abilities more, and rely on visual processing a lot.

 

Re: iq shmikeyou

Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 16:40:22

In reply to Re: iq shmikeyou Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on November 28, 2003, at 8:49:17

I am suspicious of the idea that mental illness and high IQ are linked. I think there is a self-selecting thing going on here at PB because this is a very verbal and information oriented community. And perhaps a self-selecting thing going on in people seeking care. I don't know. Have there been any real randomized studies that control for spurious variables?

I also think it is sometimes hard to measure a person's intelligence when in the throes of illness. I've never had an IQ test that I know of, aside from maybe a screening evaluation for kindergarten which I don't think was really a full IQ test. I wish I had because I wish I had a baseline measure. Sometimes I wonder what the effects of my illness are as well as the effects of all the medications I've been on. Oh well....I guess I'll never know in any kind of precise quantitative terms.

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS

Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 16:43:21

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by Destroyo on November 27, 2003, at 23:53:02

Another good book that kind of touches on this is "Antonio Damasio's Descarte's Error".

And "Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind" and his other books on multiple intelligences.

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS noa

Posted by NikkiT2 on November 28, 2003, at 17:07:41

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS, posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 16:30:37

Thanks Noa, thats just what I was trying to say with my comment about Outer Mongolia..

I think I just said it badly, cos it seems someone thought I was saying that people in Outer Mongolia were less intelligent! *l*

Nikki x

 

Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS NikkiT2

Posted by noa on November 28, 2003, at 18:18:01

In reply to Re: IQ AND MENTAL ILLNESS noa, posted by NikkiT2 on November 28, 2003, at 17:07:41

FWIW, I knew what you meant. :)

 

IQ pet peeves and ponderings

Posted by Lyrical13 on January 17, 2004, at 8:21:28

In reply to iq shmikeyou, posted by sienna on November 27, 2003, at 12:51:24

OK..several thoughts here....
First of all, I've recently learned several very brilliant people suffered from mental illness, mood disorders, etc....Van Gogh, Einstein, Beethoven...I can't remember who else... I'm not sure if this is true or if anyone has done any research on this or not, but it seems like high intelligence and mood disorders go hand in hand. Or is it just that the more intelligent people have the knowledge and resources to get help? Or do other people who are not as intelligent resort to other methods to medicate their depression...although I don't think that's true..a lot of people of various cognitive levels self-medicate with booze, drugs, sex etc.

Also, intelligence and IQ are not necessarily the same thing. IQ tests are inherently biased.. all standardized tests are biased against someone. And you should be careful with the analysis of any type of data. With any standardized test score you should ask yourself, how was this test developed? How large was the normative population? what was the composition of the normative population? When was this test last revised? Many tests have been proven to be biased against various populations because they have questions related to things that are not part of that populations usual experiences and don't include things that they HAVE been exposed to in their lifetimes. And even the best least-biased tests can be misleading because, as someone mentioned, they are influenced by how we feel and our performance on a given day. When I am depressed/anxious I notice a marked difference in my cognitive functioning. I have word-finding problems, can't concentrate, can't remember things, very distractible, etc etc. Also, some of my meds cause/contribute to these problems...Since I started on Seroquel, my short term memory has plummeted and I usually have a very good memory...photographic at times. Lots of word-finding problems...train of thought constantly being derailed. It's very frustrating.

And as far as home-school vs public school "causing" higher IQ...I don't agree. As every psych and statistics and research-based course instructor always hammered into our heads..."correlation does not imply causality". Just because 2 things happen at the same time doesn't mean that one thing causes another thing. I was labeled "gifted" and was in a wonderful program for "gifted and talented" students in the public schools. I have no idea what my IQ is...I know it had to be above 130 to get into the program but when I was tested in 6th grade they wouldn't tell me what it was. I've been tested since and I still have no idea. I believe I am in the so-called "gifted" range. The point is, the number doesn't really matter. It is a measure (however flawed) of your performance on a given day. And your IQ changes over the course of your lifetime.

Not back to the public vs home school subject. As I was saying, I went to public schools and I feel like I got a very good education. Graduated 12 out of 671, BA magna cum laude, MA cum laude from very reputable schools. Was courted by high profile Ivy League schools and offered scholarships but didn't know if it would still be enough to pay for my education. My parents couldn't afford to send me. I was basically the first generation in my dad's family to go to college. My mom went to the JC. My dad's attitude was "Why does she need to go to college..she's just going to get married anyway..another variation of that one is...I never went to college and I turned out OK)

Probably could have gotten higher GPA but always took honors and "gifted" classes. Others whose GPA was higher were afraid to get into the gifted program b/c they thought their GPA would suffer. I personally think that this hang-up with numbers and grades is counter-productive to true learning...it's not about the numbers, it's about the knowledge and skills obtained. I think there are pros and cons to both public school and home-schooling. A lot depends on the quality of your school district. A lot also depends on the teaching skills of your parents or whoever is participating in your home-school program. A good friend of mine is home-schooling her children and I can see some value in it. But even though I think that I would be very good at teaching my future children, I plan to send them to public school. With school of choice and the option to request specific classroom teachers at least in elementary school I feel like the benefits of public school are much better. The major drawback of homeschooling as I see it is that you have fewer opportunities to develop social skills and it is more difficult to learn basic living skills that you learn from a public or private school experience (ie, out of the home) While it is possible to set up some of these experiences through home-school organizations (field trips, different parents teaching courses that they have strength in.. pooling resources basically) I feel that there are a lot of things that home-schooled kids miss out on. Learning to work in a group, learning to deal with and benefit from different teaching styles, developing autonomy, plus different extracurricular activities that are more readily available in the public school... school plays, special school programs that kids get to prepare at school and then surprise their parents with when it comes time to perform... all kinds of stuff. And personally, I feel that both kids and parents benefit from not being around each other 24/7. I'd rather send my kid to a public school and be an involved parent with the school and support them with their school work at home.

And where is the dividing line...when a teacher is frustrated with a student...they just don't get it no matter how many different ways they try to teach it...they have a break from the situation and can go away and research different approaches etc. When a parent or child is frustrated in a home school setting, where is the dividing line there? How do you separate your performance as a teacher or student from your relationship with your parent? I don't know if I 'm getting across exactly what I'm trying to. But I can just imagine a child that just doesn't get reading...parent is getting frustrated because they really want their child to be able to read. How does the child separate their perception of the parent's frustration (and kids pick up on much more than you would think) from their perception of their parent's love and acceptance?

The other thing is, I think highly intelligent people are inherently socially awkward and have difficulty fitting in with their peers. I felt like most of the kids my age were real dorks and felt much more comfortable with adults my parents' age than teh kids I went ot school with. But at the same time, I felt very out of place at school and wished I hadn't felt so self-conscious and fit in better.

Anyway, I got off on a much longer diatribe than I had intended. Sorry about that. Thanks for listening and have a groovy day!



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