Psycho-Babble Social Thread 221574

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Re: I wonder.... Mair and » likelife

Posted by fallsfall on April 29, 2003, at 7:33:34

In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and, posted by likelife on April 29, 2003, at 0:23:47

I also had a "fine" life growing up. Plenty of money, my mother was the Girl Scout leader etc. But, like you, "I was constantly wanting in an emotional sense." My therapist calls it "emotional neglect". My dad worked a lot and my mother just doesn't seem to understand emotions. It is very hard to see my friends struggle with abuse issues, and for me to be as sick as they are with nothing "concrete" in my history. It feels like I am not justified in putting my family, my therapist, and myself through all of this agony. But I do believe that I don't have an acceptable choice.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran

Posted by Tabitha on April 29, 2003, at 12:22:58

In reply to Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 14:54:44

Wow, Leeran, that's a lot of information. You're really brave to post all that. My history is maybe a bit similar.. I've been alone with my battery operated toys for .. gosh.. 6 years? Sex with partners wasn't good. I wasn't myself, and I wasn't getting what I wanted, even if the men were considerate and, um, generous, it didn't feel good. I just didn't feel present. I found that when alone, at least it was REAL, I didn't have to fake anything for anyone, you know? I didn't have to perform, or hear any criticism. Whatever I got was OK, though it was still hard not to criticize myself, eventually it got easier. I was happy with my self-contained sex life, because it was so much better in its way than any partner sex I'd had.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha

Posted by leeran on April 29, 2003, at 12:42:46

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on April 29, 2003, at 12:22:58

Tabitha,

Definitely a case of "TMI" (meaning, my long involved post). That day my thoughts were just pouring out like crazy. I felt brain-dead for a month and last Friday and Saturday were almost psychedelic in nature. The trees looked greener, the sky looked bluer . . .

Okay, back down to earth. Vibrators. In my opinion, the great sexual liberator of women, and I don't mean in the bra burning sense. I just see it as a step towards self-sufficiency which has made me feel more self-confident, at least in that arena.

I've always been so eager to berate myself that it is an unexpected pleasure that I actually have the ability to make myself feel good for a change.

Anything to clear the cobwebs . . .

Lee

(Thanks for responding - if there was ever a post I have regretted it's been that one).

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran

Posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 1:49:25

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 29, 2003, at 12:42:46

Nothing to regret.. it helps to hear other true experiences.. not so many situations where you get to hear such candor.

I get those psychedelic days too-- aren't they wonderful? Last Sunday I had a day like that, I kept seeing vivid improbable sights-- a woman holding a shivering chihauha like a baby, an African man dressed all in white carrying a little fur tassle fly-swatter, the back of a car with 2 head-bobbing dogs facing an American flag decal, 3 young boys flying downhill, sitting on skateboards, with big smiles on their faces.. It reminded me of that Volkswagen commercial where all the sights match up to the beat of the music they're playing. Just a little bit trippy.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc.

Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 8:13:58

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 29, 2003, at 12:42:46

No need to regret that post, Lee. This place can be quite informative at times. And I'm always grateful to Tabitha for the website link she gave. My husband even somewhat approves, since it came personally recommended by someone I trust.
:)

 

Re: Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing) » mair

Posted by ayuda on April 30, 2003, at 9:03:28

In reply to Re: Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing) » Cecilia, posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 7:42:38

> Cecilia
>
> I'm sort of in the same boat. I don't hate being touched by every one, but have a huge aversion to being touched by my father. Almost every pdoc and therapist I've ever had has asked me if I was abused by my father. I found out this weekend that my older brother has wondered the same thing. While each of the 5 children in my family has some resentments about him, mine seem to run so much deeper.
>
> At times I've thought that finding out I was abused might not be such a bad thing because it would at least provide some explanation for my depressions. I can feel pretty guilty about how it is that someone with a very secure childhood and no particular history of mental illness can struggle as much as I do. Of course, as with you I don't need to have any more reasons to feel bad about myself - the ones I have now seem more than enough.
>
> Mair

Mair --
I also have had a strong aversion to being touched by my father, going back to at least my pre-teen years. I asked my mom once when I was in my early-30s if there was ever any sexual abuse, and she said an ephatic NO, that she is sure there was none.

We discussed it further, and we have figured out that, for me, it is an ongoing resentment for the physical abuse (non-sexual) I suffered, from childhood beatings and then especially in my teen years when I first became sexually active, and my overall hatred of him. I find him to be a repulsive person in general. But so does my older brother. Our younger sister, though, was always close to him and doesn't have these issues, though my father isn't a "touchy-feelie" type of person anyhow.

But his physical abuse did have sexual repercussions when I was a teen and in my early 20s -- a boyfriend noticed that I flinched every time someone came near my face. Not a little flinch, either. It was so normal to me to flinch that I didn't consciously notice it. I never had any problems with sex or touching anywhere else, but when someone went to touch my face, that was scary.

It hurt the feelings of that one particular college boyfriend, who was a caring person, because he thought I equated him with my father, and that he could not bear. So he took the time to teach me to not flinch. And now I rarely do it. If I don't know why someone is coming at my face, I flinch, but I think that is normal.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Dinah

Posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 9:50:10

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc., posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 8:13:58

Gosh, did I miss a website link? Now I'm very curious . . .

On the re-read I see it may be a website posted previously (not on this thread).

Re: the information passed around, I can't believe it - meds I've never heard of, ideas that would never have occurred to me, old memories I've tried to sublimate, book recommendations, the list goes on and on.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran

Posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 14:09:30

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 9:50:10

Glad to hear Miss Dinah Marie enjoyed that one.. I think she's referring to www.blowfish.com, there I made it tricky with no blue link. I haven't actually ordered from there, but I love their site.. it's so, well, to use the phrase I've seen before, 'sex-positive'. Not stupid cutesy, not tacky sleazy. It hits the right note for me.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha

Posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 14:56:06

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 14:09:30

Oh no, I need to go read the rules and regulations for PB site. I tried to find them the other day and couldn't locate anything.

I just posted a couple of links to two websites that discuss "the water cure" (drinking 1/2 your body weight in water everyday). I'm not affiliated with them in the least but I thought it might be of interest because of Dinah's post.

HOWEVER, with your mention of the tricky non-blue ink/link it hit me that I might have committed a PB no-no.

I will go check out that website (blowfish...). There's another website (it's not designed very well and looks a little . . . tacky) sponsored by the NY sex therapist who uses the Hitachi Magic Wand, and as I recall - she has some good pointers (not an intentional double entendre).

Tabitha - do you know where the rules/regs are located for PB?

Add paranoia to my list of dis-"eases."

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran

Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 17:46:12

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 14:56:06

I don't think it's a problem, Lee. I've never seen Dr. Bob mention it.

I was going to supply the link, but I thought Tabitha deserved the credit. :)

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha

Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 17:49:54

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 14:09:30

Ah drat, Tabitha. You've never ordered? Well, don't tell my husband. I suspect he thinks these sites sell their products used. Or at least that's what his reaction implies. (grin) A personal recommendation looked like it might just maybe possibly get him past his objections. Doubtful though, come to think of it.

I hate to complain about his fastidiousness though. It pretty much guarantees fidelity, even if I didn't trust his formidable sense of honor as much as I do.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran

Posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2003, at 0:31:15

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 14:56:06

posting links is perfectly fine.. unless it's to sites that sell meds without prescription.. I was just being sneaky, cause it's about -shhhh!- sex toys! just my silliness.

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha

Posted by leeran on May 1, 2003, at 2:06:43

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2003, at 0:31:15

Tabitha,

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know . . . probably everyone knows about this place.

The Starbucks of sex stores is on Sunset Blvd. in West Hollywood (I guess it's just called "The Hustler Store"). We went there one night when my son had something going on and wouldn't be home right away. I suppose it was a nice diversion considering a big night out for us is a trip to both Ralph's AND Von's (our two local grocery stores).

I found some weird solace in the fact that there's an enormous, well-decorated sex store with a Barnes & Noble type book section, and a coffee/dessert bar. I see it as the yuppification of sex, or coming full circle in a world where Dick and Laura Petrie had to sleep in twin beds.

It took the stigma out of sex toy shopping. No blinking signs with arrows on the top of the building, no little peep show hall, no weirdos dressed only in trenchcoats and black shoes/socks lurking around out back. The D*sney approach to marketing sex. I'm glad I've lived to see the day when that product type is sold on drugstore.com!

I'm glad the world has changed in this regard since the fifties/sixties/seventies (but I do hope my son remains a virgin until his wedding night).

Lee

 

Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran

Posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2003, at 11:55:36

In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on May 1, 2003, at 2:06:43

Wow, no I did not know of such a place. Sex Toy Disneyland! Next time I'm in Hollywood I'll check it out.

 

Re: I wonder....

Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:16:28

In reply to Re: I wonder.... » noa, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 17:44:41

Dinah,

I am certainly not one for assuming there was abuse or trauma just based on someone's current symptoms. As we all know here, there are often multiple possible causes for various symptoms, and often biological bases are overlooked in favor of attempts to attribute symptoms to psychological experiences.

I have also seen a friend decide she was abused based not on any memories but on current problems that friends of hers in abuse recovery programs told her were signs of having been abused. Maybe, maybe not. But I know that she had enough about her past to have caused her unhappiness and particular problems anyway, along with whatever biological pre-dispositions she had, and that it didn't seem necessarily the case that she was also sexually abused. Like I said, maybe yes, maybe no, but I feel it can be dangerous to assume based on current symptoms. I saw how that danger played out with this friend (this was back in the 80's when this kind of thing was "popular" because the lid was finally being taken off the secrecy of abuse).

But I guess, like another poster (sorry, I can't remember who it was right now), there was something about your post that spooked me.

Maybe it was the details that you remember about your outfit, from such an early age. Or the distinct memory you have of the blood stain. Or the size of the blood stain you describe. Somehow it is hard for me to imagine a blood stain that size just from the abrasions of shorts too tight.

Did your mom or aunt check you out physically?

I hate writing all of this because it may be totally off and it seems too intrusive and perhaps dangerously provocative.

I guess the other thought is that the gyn exam doesn't totally exclude the possibility because of several issues--partial tearing of the hymen, and also that sexual abuse with penetration doesn't always involve vaginal pentration.

I'm sorry. This is way too graphic and intrusive, I'm sure.

Anyway, it probably signifies nothing about you and your memory and that day that *I* am a little spooked by the story, but that is it, fwiw.

Like I said, there are a lot of unknowns and I am not one for assuming abuse or for forcing memories, for sure.

 

Re: I wonder.... Mair and

Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:35:51

In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and, posted by likelife on April 29, 2003, at 0:23:47

I agree--I think I was a mismatch with my parents in a lot of ways.

I remember way back in the early 80's I was reading August, a novel by Judith Rossner, (sorry no double double quotes because for whatever reason this particular book doesn't get a match) and being a novel, it, of course had a kind of neatly packaged linear cause-effect thing going with an uncovered early trauma, too early for ready access to memories. At the time, this made me wonder a bit about any trauma I did not know about, but I think I came to realize after not very long that there didn't have to be something dramatic that happened to explain my problems.

I had a friend who, during the 80's, when recovered memories were coming out of the closet, and recovery support groups were becoming popular, spent a lot of time with recovering abuse victims, and in that context, began to be convinced that she must have been sexually abused by her father, even though she had no memories to that effect, just based on her depressive symptoms. It just felt that way to her because how else could she explain her depression and unhappiness. To me, there were plenty of "reasons" (aside from biology) based on what I already knew of her background. But to her none of that felt like "enough" of a reason to have the problems she did. Of course, I have no idea whether she was or was not abused but I remember how disturbing I found it that she assumed she must have been based on her adult symptoms and the support she was feeling in the recovery groups. BTW, she also went through a brief period during this time when she was hanging with the recovery friends, of believing she was a lesbian. She had never suspected this before, and had had relationships with men before, and this ended after less than a year, and a couple of years later, she called to say she was getting married (to a man).

So much of this is biology. And then there is the plain old, garden variety, "mismatch" that you mentioned. The story behind my depression is kind of lackluster and would make a terrible Hollywood plot. I think we like a good story--to be able to reveal something that makes us say, "Aha! No wonder. That explains it all so perfectly". A nice clean, wrapped up story with obvious cause-effect and dramatic appeal.

Sorry to put it so glibly. I definitely don't mean to be trivializing all of this. I think far too much abuse probably goes unreported.

 

Re: I wonder.... Mair and » noa

Posted by mair on May 1, 2003, at 21:15:50

In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and, posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:35:51


> "So much of this is biology. And then there is the plain old, garden variety, "mismatch" that you mentioned. The story behind my depression is kind of lackluster and would make a terrible Hollywood plot. I think we like a good story--to be able to reveal something that makes us say, "Aha! No wonder. That explains it all so perfectly". A nice clean, wrapped up story with obvious cause-effect and dramatic appeal."


Noa, I think you're so right about this. I think I'd like a direct explanation because I feel so guilty about how I feel about my father and because I'm struck by how truly difficult it is for me to overcome depression (or even better control it) I told my therapist once that I didn't deserve my illness. She agreed with me wholeheartedly until I realized that she misunderstood me. I meant that I wan't "entitled." (I feel like I'm repeating myself - I hope I haven't already said this somewhere else in this thread)

I think the other reason that I'd love an explanation is that I'm a mother now and it's frightening to accept that I could be as benign as my parents were and end up with a kid who feels as alienated as I do.

 

The Sins of the Father salon.com

Posted by Zo on May 2, 2003, at 4:18:53

In reply to Re: Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing) » Cecilia, posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 7:42:38

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/04/29/abuse/index.html

 

Re: I wonder.... » noa

Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 8:25:52

In reply to Re: I wonder...., posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:16:28

Hi Noa,

I guess there are some things that concern me, as well. The main one being that I remember it so well. I hadn't consciously thought of it for as long as I can remember, but the memory was pretty complete when I recounted it to my therapist. Of course, my immediate thought wsa that it was a dream. However, every external part of the memory, everything except how I felt, was corroborated by my mother without any hints on my part. What was I wearing, what did I tell her, everything. I never thought to ask her what she did to check it out. The memory is just a snapshot and doesn't extend for more than a few minutes in either direction. I imagine she would have at least done an exterior review. Perhaps one day I'll ask again, although asking about it twice might make more of a deal of it than it deserves.

One thing I know about my mother was that she was aware of these things, even at a time when they weren't widely spoken of, and wasn't afraid to speak up. She was a schoolteacher and had been turning in parents to the equivilant of child protective services when that was not at all popular with principals.

I don't know that it makes much difference though. The memory is a snapshot. Whatever happened before or after is irretrievably lost. And in what I do remember, I didn't even remember at that time that anything had happened. So if I perchance blocked it from my memory, I did it by the end of that day. And in the end I'm left with the fact that I have sexual aversion, problems with dissociation, and some other various and sundry problems that need to be adressed in the here and now, whatever their origin.

One sort of humorous note about the memory. The night after I had the memory, I had a dream. In my dream I was angry at my mother. She was sleeping while I was being attacked by these bugs. The bugs were large sluglike creatures who grew larger and developed a hard shell. Then they would regurgitate masses of this cotton ball like material before returning to their former sluglike form. I dutifully recounted the dream to my therapist and was horrified to learn that he thought it was a dream about sex!!! Imagine! It honestly hadn't occurred to me that what I was describing could have been viewed that way. This was early enough in the therapeutic relationship that I was mortified, although I can now look back with amusement at the look at his face as he attempted to delicately phrase his interpretation.

 

Re: I wonder.... » mair

Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 8:41:54

In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and » noa, posted by mair on May 1, 2003, at 21:15:50

Oh Mair. I hate that you don't feel entitled to be cursed with your illness. I do understand though. My life is so wonderful that I sometimes feel my smile should be graven in my face by now. My problems are so obviously cyclical that it's easy for me to see their biological component. It may be different for a person with depression (I've had two to three bouts of major depression in my life, but depression isn't my major diagnosis). I also know that that kind of thinking is part of the illness. I suppose you know that, though. It's just hard to let it seep in to that place where you believe it.

As for guilt about your feelings towards your dad, please don't feel guilty about that. My mom never sexually abused me, and never seriously physically abused me, not enough that I wouldn't be ashamed to call it abuse even. Yet my feelings towards her are negative, and remain negative even though she's behaved herself pretty well for years. It's not that I don't forgive her, I do. But our opinions are colored by years of knowing these people. And just because you were born to someone doesn't mean you have to like them. I look like my mother, and whenever someone mentions it I want to scream. Because my mother is ugly to me in a way that has only a bit to do with how she looks. I feel bad about it sometimes, because in her own way she loved me. She sacrificed for me, She did many wonderful things for me when I was growing up. But after you live through certain things, it just isn't possible to go back to feeling how you think you should feel. With my mom it was things like her screaming that she hated me and I wasn't her daughter, vicious things, when she was angry. The occasional physical losses of control. And the half apologies after - "I'm sorry you made me so mad I said that. If you hadn't been fighting the belt, the buckle wouldn't have hit your face." If I feel differently about her now, it's because I had to to function. What your dad did was different, I'm sure. But I'm also sure that you reap what you sow. You aren't an unreasonable or vindictive person, Mair. If you feel the way you do about your dad, there is good reason to do so, I'm sure. And no reason to feel guilty. And I honor you for honoring him as a parent the way you do, despite your feelings.

 

Re: I wonder.... » Dinah

Posted by leeran on May 2, 2003, at 13:49:14

In reply to Re: I wonder.... » noa, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 8:25:52

Gosh, as a casual reader I can only say that the symbolism of what you wrote is very powerful. At first, I thought it might be rooted in your issues with vomit (the word regurgitate made my barf-a-phobe antennae go straight up) - but then, as I was rereading the words, I was really struck by the imagery:

"large sluglike creatures who grew larger and developed a hard shell. Then they would regurgitate masses of this cotton ball like material before returning to their former sluglike form."

Dinah, this almost seems like "dream code" (don't know what else to call it - symbolism, subliminal meaning, etc.) for the entire process of the male erection. I don't know any other way to put that, and I'm sure you've realized that and so has your therapist so I feel certain I'm not triggering anything you two haven't already covered.

How do I word this next part?

Once I got past the regurgitation notion (IOW, put my own vomit issues aside) and read your description yet again, in terms of it being sexual, something immediately came to my mind: an uncircumcised penis.

Then, I thought - why does that word "slug" trigger that image in my own mind? Could I be the only one?

So, I did an internet search and found several references to uncircumcised penises and slugs, as well as penises in general referred to as "slugs." In Australia, men's "bathers" are referred to as slug holders.

I now know more about slugs than I ever thought possible - including the term apophallation, which is a unique term for slugs and their mating ritual.

This dream of yours really intrigued me, as you can tell. It was so graphic - almost as graphic as the description of the event itself.

I don't want to go back through the threads and find the original post at this moment, but didn't it involve a cornfield???

I looked up the word "corn" and "slug" and there were 33,900 references that came up in the search. Apparently, slugs are a real problem with corn crops.

Then, this series of thoughts came to mind -

If you look up the word "apophallation" you will find 32 results for that word. The process of apophallation is one of fascination it seems, even to a few "bloggers" out there.

Now . . . I don't know if this term is unique to ALL slugs are just certain varieties - so I'm just throwing out a theory here.

The blood in your panties . . . perhaps from squatting down in the cornfield (corn row?) to look at something very close to the ground, out of fascination, as children are wont to do. At first entranced by these slugs - and then, horrified by what you saw unfold? Look up that word apophallation and you'll see what I mean. One website has a video and I couldn't allow myself to even click on the link to look (admittedly, I may be more "grossed out" than the average person by slimy worm-like things .

In squatting down to see something so closely/intently, could it be that your panties (or whatever you described wearing - I wish I had the post in front of me because I’m thinking you said they were tight to begin with) dug into you without you realizing it at the moment - because you were so distracted by what you were seeing?

Dinah, I initially extrapolated "uncircumcised penis" from your dream description (strictly in a visual sense) and since I haven't found your original post I'm going mostly on the dream sequence versus the event itself. Because of the immediate visual your slug description created in my own mind's eye (of an uncircumscribed penis), the blood in your panties, your photographic memory of what you were wearing, etc., it's hard to ignore the possibility of sexual abuse. Either way, it seems that there was something about that day that made it different than a lot of other days in your childhood.

I remember as a little girl, seeing a male dog who was in pursuit of a female dog in heat. The visual of that male dog (I don't think I need to go further with this) just seemed disgusting and naughty to me (and I get the same feeling as I sit here remembering it). I remember my mother's reaction as well, not in these exact words - but the gist was "don't look at that, it's nasty."

I hope all this doesn't trigger anything negative. It seems like you are trying to make sense of the memory of that day, and perhaps it does have a sexual basis - but maybe NOT in the child abuse sense.

The sexual act in nature can be (for me) both fascinating and horrible (i.e. the Discovery channel has those specials on "Sex in the Animal World" and I can really get the willies watching all that).

Just throwing all this out . . .

-----------------------------

I became so engrossed in this post that I completely forgot about the dog's grooming appointment until they called to remind me (ahhhh, the annoying habit of overfocusing). So, I'm finally returning to this stream-of-consiousness mega post

On the walk over there I tried to figure out why slugs equal "uncircumcised penis" in my mind.

Then, I remembered an incident in college with this guy who was a very close friend (or that's how I saw him). We went places together, ate in the dorm cafeteria together, etc. and he even built a loft bed in my dorm room out of some boards and a tree trunk (pre-Trading Places / Martha Stewart era).

One day, he invited me to his dorm room (I had never been there, but he had often been to mine) after dinner and said he wanted to give me a massage (maybe I complained of a sore neck? I don't remember).

Anyone who can see where this is going might be thinking "didn't SHE see this coming?" But I honestly didn't. In fact, I had a boyfriend at another school and that was all made very clear to this friend months before. Plus, I've always been naive to a certain extent.

He started giving me this massage and all of a sudden it became obvious that he was getting into it in a non-therapeutic way. I turned my head and he used that opportunity to escalate the situation.

It was one of those weird moments. I felt heartsick that our friendship had just taken a wrong turn, guilty because he had been so nice to me, and in typical fashion for me, felt (for a split second) that I "owed him something" (i.e. affection - not sex) for being so nice, helpful, etc.

As I turned around he started kissing me, breathing way too heavily, and unzipping his pants, all in this awful "oh h*ll, now THIS is ruined moment." You can guess the rest - he was uncircumcised.

I shot out of that room like I had been sprung from a circus cannon, with him following behind apologizing (I assume after he had zipped his pants).

Of course, our friendship was over. I suppose it didn't have to be - but I wasn't mature enough to get past it.

When I remembered this, walking to the pet store, I immediately thought of what seeing "him" reminded me of - a slug.

NOTE: (to any uncircumcised male who might be reading this) - PLEASE, PLEASE know that I was 18 years old and more horrified by the situation than by the appendage, but it is part of the memory - and is apparently the reason why I associate the two words I've used here in this post with such frequence.

------------------------------------------

Now, on a totally different note.

I'm trying to conserve posts because I feel like I've posted SO much lately, yet, how does one transition from all this to . . . beverages?

The dotted line was supposed to help.

Regarding drinks - Dinah, the Diet Ice Sparkling drinks are excellent (I've consumed several since mentioning them in my post two days ago). And this is coming from a confirmed Coke addict. I've never seen them anywhere but Costco - but here's a link to the product.

http://www.talkingrain.com/PRODUCTS/SPARKLINGICE/index.htm

 

Re: I wonder.... Dinah

Posted by judy1 on May 2, 2003, at 14:24:26

In reply to Re: I wonder...., posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:16:28

this is all a little triggering to me so I'll keep it short, but all the warning bells have been going off since I started reading your symptoms, and when you recounted your memory, well it became a cacophony. my therapist claims it's rare to have one incidence of abuse and have the range of symptoms i was experiencing- that's when i became aware of how well my dissociation was working. i don't want to imply you had more going on then the one memory you wrote about, i just think it's really worth exploring deeply with your therapist. take care, judy

 

Re: I wonder.... » Dinah

Posted by leeran on May 2, 2003, at 14:30:05

In reply to Re: I wonder.... » mair, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 8:41:54

"vicious things, when she was angry"

Dinah,

I've always said my mother's tongue was one of the most vicious on earth.

When she is enraged - for whatever reason, everyone else has to take the blame, pay the price, atone for the sin of not seeing things her way.

She'll lash out with a barrage of words until the right combination of them will finally hit the mark and her target is felled.

I was privy to one of her "episodes" as an adult and the words she said to my father were appalling. If I repeated them here people would be shocked. Two of those sentences are now ingrained in my memory, like so many other word combinations that were really proclamations of what she had deemed to be "so" or "not so" over the years.

She has this uncanny ability to take a negative quality in someone and recreate that person in an image based on her vitriolic words. The result is this persistent static that makes it difficult to see the numerous POSITIVE aspects of that same person ever again.

Of course, she can come off as one of warmest people you've ever met. I don't know how many people (in my adult years) have said "your mother is one of the nicest people I've ever met."

"Just don't cross her" is what I'm thinking - but my mouth forms the words "yes, she is, isn't she."

Her defense to this would be "when I'm 'down' like that I don't even know what I'm saying." Okay, whatever. Who is going to argue with her?

I'm so sorry to hear your mother also used words as weapons. My mother was never physically abusive, but I've always wondered what I would have remembered most - being hit or those perfectly chosen words. It's hard for me to imagine enduring both.

"If I feel differently about her now, it's because I had to to function."

Dinah, you always have a way of describing in one sentence what it's taken me years to try to figure out.

As I've said (and thought) so many times in these last five or six weeks, thank you so much for your incredibly honest posts.

Lee


 

The biggest shock in my life.....

Posted by maryhelen on May 2, 2003, at 17:04:38

In reply to Re: I wonder.... » Dinah, posted by leeran on May 2, 2003, at 14:30:05

I know that we do everything we can to protect our children. I certainly thought that was the case with my daughter. In fact I know I was overprotective.

When my daughter was 11 and we had moved into a new neighbourhood, we came to know a grandfatherly gentleman, who lived alone just up the street. All the neighbourhood children spent time at this house. I checked him out the best I could with the neighbours, some who had lived their all their lives and they said he was wonderful with children. So I did allow my daughter to also spend time there with the other children. On one particular day, he was taking the children to the store for popsciles, when I got a call from a friend of mine who lived across the street and had seen him with the children and my daughter. She worked at the local community centre and told me that he was a known pedophile. I thought I would die. I work in a school and called the social worker in a panic for the best way to deal with this. Please, bear with me. I began to ask my daughter if he had ever touched her inappropriately. She kept maintaining that he hadn't but I just couldn't leave it alone.

She finally said to me, "Mom, John has never touched me or hurt me, but Grandad has". In that moment I thought I would die. My parents only lived 4 blocks away at the time and I was at the front door ready to leave and I swear to God I would have stuck a knife and twisted it right into my father. However, one look into my daughter's panicked face told me to get a grip and deal with this in a better way. I subsequently learned that I probably handled the situation as well as I could have, most importantly, never having doubted what she told me for a moment.

I won't go on with the follow-up because it is too long but I can tell you, that, although I learned through my own therapy years later he had also sexually abused me, there is nothing worse for me to bear than what he did to my daughter, who is now 29. The feelings of guilt that I didn't protect her and should have known will probably stay with me forever.

Thank you so much for listening.

maryhelen

 

Re: The biggest shock in my life..... » maryhelen

Posted by noa on May 2, 2003, at 17:22:23

In reply to The biggest shock in my life....., posted by maryhelen on May 2, 2003, at 17:04:38

Wow. I am so sorry you and your daughter had to experience that. But please don't blame yourself. You didn't know. And don't think you "should have" known. Trauma is so powerful and the way our brains block things out to protect us from the trauma is amazing. You really didn't know. And when you learned about it, you did what was needed to protect her. She is so lucky to have you as her mom.


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