Psycho-Babble Social Thread 221860

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Re: pax........ » justyourlaugh

Posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 1:23:35

In reply to pax........, posted by justyourlaugh on April 25, 2003, at 23:07:14

JYL - you said "can you relate..mabe she doesnt know she is all that ill.."

JYL, PAX, DINAH et. al,

JYL, you're right, my mother didn't know she was that ill and I'm willing to bet the barn that Pax's wife doesn't know either. I never know with myself until I get to a point where I can look back and say, "Wow, I was in a pretty bleak place." Usually, it happens when my son goes back to see his father. I can kind of carefully let myself fall apart.

Years ago, when I was away at college my mother called with the news that she was in early menopause (another family heirloom) and that her gynecologist had diagnosed her with depression. Quite frankly, I don't even think I knew what depression was until that night. It was the late seventies and I was pretty naive. After so many long years someone had finally put a diagnosed her agony and she was so relieved. She went on one of the tricyclic anti-depressants that were available back then and she improved vastly (note, there were still "episodes" but as I recall, it was when she would take herself off her medication or when something was completely out of her control, which would trigger her need to control).

I told my husband tonight (this has been the week of "revelations" at our house) that I felt terrible for revealing that part of my childhood so graphically this afternoon. But, not revealing it has had some long-term toxic effects and sublimating it all has taken its toll. I don't know why it all seems so shameful, maybe because back then mental illness was only found under rugs where it was so carefully swept from view.

From all appearances I have had a relatively successful life. My parents scrimped and saved to send me to college and they did the best that they possibly could. Both of them have issues that go back to childhood and I'm sure that they feel they did a better job of raising me than their parents did with them. That's not a snide remark. I think it's all any of us can do.

One night my son made a remark about something I had said that wasn't very nice about a slow waiter. Of course, just like my mother - I took offense.

My husband told him to take note of the things he sees that he doesn't like (and likes) in the adults he knows, including myself - himself, and his father, stepmother, teachers, etc. and incorporate those likes/dislikes into his own belief system (he worded it far better than I just did, but that was the gist of it).

Point is, we just struggle along like they did trying to do the best with what we know.

My inner-child wrote the post to Pax because I was thrown back to my eight year old self when I read his post. Apparently, I'm at a place in my life that I feel safe experiencing that again and dealing with what's leftover.

I know for an absolute fact that my mother does not want to be the way that she is when she spirals downward, or when she's not on medication.

As an adult, everything seems so understandable because:

a) Along with my son, they are the only family I have (meaning, no siblings and I'm not that close with extended family, nor are they).

b) I live/suffer with depression as well and it's opened my eyes to their pain.

c) Growing up in that household forced me to understand a lot of nuances of human behavior that I might have missed otherwise. I'm observant to the point of annoyance, but I think I can also empathize because that child in me who used to sit and listen to her pain still exists.

I'm a firm believer (I'm sure I've said it here in the last month) that there "are no accidents." (I'm borrowing from a book by the same name (" There Are No Accidents: Synchroncity and the Stories of Our Lives").

Every little thing that happens in my life has always seemed to come along right when I've needed it. No sooner, no later.

So much of my anger toward my mother has washed away over the years since I've had my son. Initially, she resented the thought of his exisence in our lives because it would change things for her. Because I was unhappily married and she was unhappily married we finally had something in common - and we spent a lot of time together running off my nervous energy. She instinctively knew I wouldn't have as much time to try to keep "us" occupied. BUT, and this is a very big but, I know that she loves him probably more than anyone else in this world. And that allows me to forgive her - and love her.

I know she loves me as well, in her own way. She was twenty two when she had me - still so young and from what my grandmother and father have told me, unhappy and aloof before I was even born.

She is able to love my son in a way that she might not have been able to love me because she is on anti-depressants and he isn't her full responsibility. In other words, she can enjoy him.

Anti-depressants changed her life. I'm not sure she's on the right one, or the right combination - but I thank God for the improvement it has made in her, simply because I have seen moments when she has been truly happy in the last ten to fifteen years. And that's really all I wanted when I was little.

So, in many ways, my wishes have come true. We (human beings) don't have happy moments 100% of the time. Lord knows I don't and it's unfair of me to expect that from her (and I don't think I do anymore). As for myself, I would just like to stop thinking that something bad's going to happen for a period of about a year or so (or longer) so I could get myself organized again.

Getting rid of all this agita (any Italians out there will know what I mean, it's a word I picked up from my husband) must be part of the process.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. My mother apologized to me seven or eight years ago and said she wonders what my life would have been like had there been Paxil back then. It was a weird relief to hear her apologize after all those years but by then it didn't matter. I don't mean that the way it reads. It mattered - but somehow my son had already erased a lot of pain between us, so it wasn't some big cinematic moment.

She hugged me for the first time four years ago when I moved 2000 miles away. Another big milestone. And she hugs me when she sees me and when I leave.

She is not a bad person, nor is my father. I guess I'm not either. I just need to learn that it is okay to feel angry about some of it without feeling like I will "get in trouble" for having those feelings, or that something bad will happen to me or someone I love because I've relaxed for a minute. Intellectually, I accepted it many years ago. Emotional acceptance is next.

Gosh, I'm so sorry this is so long.

I guess my inner-child posted this afternoon, but my 44 year old self needed to put the other perspective on it.

Pax, you are right, it was one of the most cathartic actions I may have ever done. It was certainly one of the most public displays of inner anger that I've ever shown. And yes, I think there is a therapist's sofa somewhere in my not so distant future.

Paxvox, the voice of peace. May this peace come to your life (and your wife and daughters lives) soon.


What came through in my post was my extreme anger - but what didn't come through as well is how much I love her. Of course, that is why I'm so conflicted. Mental illness runs in our family. Her grandfather hanged himself in the barn. I think with each generation it's been diluted somewhat, but I want to stress

 

Re: pax........jyl » leeran

Posted by fayeroe on April 26, 2003, at 9:04:21

In reply to Re: pax........ » justyourlaugh, posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 1:23:35

i've wondered for years what my parents would have been like if they had had anti-depressants. especially my mother. she filled my life with toxic feelings til i left home at 16. i even skipped a grade in school so that i could leave! how dumb was it to be a freshman in college at age 16 in the 60s? but i was out of that house and that madness and the fights and "i'd divorce you if it wasn't for Pat".........i know that i still carry guilt from that. and at age 40, i remembered being incested and that no one stood up for me.......from age 6 to 9. our history shapes us.....and all of my sisters are in denial about what went on in our household. so, i have no one to talk to about it...to sort out the feelings and the happenings. i've been to therapy for it and handled it that way. but i want that family thing. damnit! frequently, i post about something serious and i don't get a response. i hope that someone will respond to this because i haven't told this before and i need some help today. pat

 

THings that come out » fayeroe

Posted by susan C on April 26, 2003, at 11:04:14

In reply to Re: pax........jyl » leeran, posted by fayeroe on April 26, 2003, at 9:04:21

Hello everybody,
I have known Pax for some time now, which is why I first responded to this thread...Little did I know, after I wrote my little contribution, things would come out...the contrast between how I "remember" things and the feelingss and memories revealed from the posts fayeroe and leeran have me stop and take stock. How articulate and revealing you have been. How much we share in common, there are some differences...but what a mix of family genetics, situational sad sad childhood, personal illness and observation of loved one illness..and so, we "sensitives" go through life. I am rambling, my face is still wet with tears. My eyes hurt.

Pax you said, "I dont know what to do"...Is there any way to have some kind of "intervention"? Minister, doctor, friend? Otherwise, it may be the terrible decision I know you have not wanted to make, which is to leave, to divorce.

a mouse sighing.

 

Re: pax........jyl » fayeroe

Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2003, at 11:25:03

In reply to Re: pax........jyl » leeran, posted by fayeroe on April 26, 2003, at 9:04:21

Hi Pat,

I think I've finally gotten over the guilt of being the reason my parents didn't divorce. And my involvement was direct. I begged Daddy not to leave. I think my therapist has finally convinced me that I didn't really have the power my parents let me think I did. Somehow it fitted into their own games to let me think that. I hope you manage to shed any guilt you have about what part they gave you in their dramas and whatever you did to escape from them.

I've never experienced incest, thank god, but I do know the anger that comes from not being protected. It's hard to imagine that our adults don't do everything that they can to protect us. Even animals know to do that. How can they, like Lee's dad and to a lesser extent like my dad (and at different times my Mom) leave us to handle things on our own at a time we just weren't equipped to do it. Sometimes it leaves me with the feeling that I wasn't worth protecting, other times with the awareness that they were weak. But darn it! Weakness still means that something was more important to them than we were!

I have my family now, and that's the one that really matters to me. I'm determined not to repeat the same mistakes. I'll make a new set. But I will always, always put my son's welfare first. Of course, I know my Mom had that vow too.

 

Re: pax........jyl » fayeroe

Posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 12:42:03

In reply to Re: pax........jyl » leeran, posted by fayeroe on April 26, 2003, at 9:04:21

Pat,

I want to answer more a little later. I have to run to McDonald's to pick up a nutritious fast-food non-home made breakfast for N. (son) - but before I go, I want to say that I hope writing what you did this morning ends up being as cathartic for you as what writing what I did yesterday has been for me.

I still feel shaky this morning - but somehow, keeping it all a "secret" (because mom and dad never want to talk about what really happens, unless it's to me, on the side, about each other - which always makes me feel worse) makes it seem shameful and unreal.

But it WAS real. Good, bad, whatever - it was real and it's part of what shaped me - and what happened to you shaped you, and everyone else on this board (and beyond) has been shaped by what has happened along their journey.

I don't know what would be worse . . . to be alone trying to sort out the memories as an only child or to try to sort them out with siblings who are in denial. I'm going to think it's the latter, because it has the potential to leave you the "odd man out" and their denial probably makes you feel like your reality is being invalidated.

You have been so open with me here on the board, with the aging discussion and your views on handling it, with the background on your divorce, etc. (not to mention the apple-sour creme pies!) that I truly feel like you are an "online" sister.

I see the truth in your words and it makes me feel close to you, even though we just met and we're probably miles apart and will never meet in person.

Sometimes I think that those of us who might have some war wounds from childhood need to find our "family" all around us. Reading those Brian Weiss books helped me see that as a possibility.

I don't have "a lot" of friends. I have a few very good friends that kind of know the sketchy version of my background and I know theirs and we accept each other based on that (and more). Those people, along with my parents, who have so many issues - but still manage to really care despite it all, and most importantly, my husband and son, are my family.

People along the way who I've recognized as toxic for my mental health have had to go along the wayside. I realize I'm just too fragile for some people. There have been a few whose agenda was feeling better at the expense of everyone else, undoubtedly due to their own pain, but my foundation isn't strong enough to support the needs of others who might undermine my sense of well-being. Learning that has, I suppose, been part of setting boundaries after all these years.

After my first husband was unfaithful to me I had lunch with a "friend" who was always trying to pry information from me, how much money I made, what my marriage was like, and so forth. Finally, I admitted that my husband had recently come clean with the admission of a one night stand while away on a business trip. My friend's mouth dropped open as she put down her fork and napkin, and then she laughed. Right in my face. And she said "I can't wait to get home and tell ____ (her husband)." I had lost weight from the stress, and on the way out to the car she slowed down to walk a bit behind me and said "Oh no, your butt looks like it's getting smaller than mine, I better start working out harder."

I never accepted any future calls from her and never saw her again. Her husband, who is one of the nicest guys I've ever met, is still the administrator of one of my insurance policies.

We have to protect ourselves. Not to the point of paranoia - but to the point of self-preservation.

My heart is sad for you this morning, Pat, imagining what it must have been like for you back then, an innocent thrown into situations that were not of your making. That, coupled with the family angst with your sisters just doesn't seem fair. Not in the least.

But from where I sit, Pat, I see you as very evolved and undoubtedly, a lot of that strength has come from what you've been through.

Take care of yourself today, and always.

Lee

p.s. I always think I can write a "short one" and finish it later, but I can't. I just have this immediate need to react/say something - and then when I get started, I can't stop! Off to the golden arches. Cross-country hugs!

 

Re: ... and another story (long) » leeran

Posted by wendy b. on April 26, 2003, at 13:42:32

In reply to Re: pax........ » justyourlaugh, posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 1:23:35

> What came through in my post was my extreme anger - but what didn't come through as well is how much I love her. Of course, that is why I'm so conflicted. Mental illness runs in our family. Her grandfather hanged himself in the barn. I think with each generation it's been diluted somewhat, but I want to stress...


{Warning - to those who might have a trigger effect over abuse issues - you might not want to read this.}

Lee,

You have been very brave, here. This thread has been incredibly moving to me. Most people will never have a moment of truth like that, where it becomes crystal clear enough to write about what you have. I think writing is incredibly cathartic, and that this forum is great that way - I find "chats" more difficult, and don't participate in them, because what you are doing (what I often do), is write something and save it in another program (I have a whole MSWord file of un-sent babble posts, or early thoughts on posts I have sent). And then you think about it some more, edit it, and then you post. But I save my "working it out" stuff anyway, because, well... I save a lot of s___, heh, heh. Also posts by others that have meant a lot to me are in there too, as many of them in this thread will be saved. So writing, hanging on to it, and then modifying it, and then posting is a great method of "figuring things out," because you then get TIME to think, but then also the generosity of other people's words of empathy and wisdom, like the "sensitives," the people who have posted here (not the least, Pax, who is the kindest guy in the world, that's why he's waited this long to broach this issue of his wife - he cries at your inner-child post, Lee, because he has his daughter in mind before anything else- I love him for that).

But Lee, your post gets me, because not only is it useful to Pax, helps him clarify his thinking, it is also so revealing of the child's vulnerability to the adults in her life. Like you kept waiting for the adults to start acting like adults: take care of this for me, so I don't have to live in terror all the time. And the results when that doesn't happen are so sad, and so clear. You really painted a haunting self-portrait of what that was like for a child, thank you.

Now for the heavy part (I've been in therapy a long time, so have worked on it...)
I was very badly neglected both emotionally and physically... I always have to issue a caveat at this point in the story (why? cuz I'm a guilty woman): that other people have had it MUCH MUCH worse than I ever had. So I'm not psychotic. My mother never went into the basement for a week, but your post says to me: she might as well have, because when I think back over my childhood, there are times when I *feel as though* I didn't see her or feel her presence at all. And she had her reasons (they all have their reasons) - an emotionally neglectful mother the biggest one. But as a young woman, she also had no husband and no father for her four children. This coincided with the first five years of my life; my father was a drunk who would come around, get my mother pregnant, and then disappear again, and she always took him back, or at least - *I* was the product of the last time she took him back, and after that, no more. [Now how's that for a self-esteem issue? thinking you're the product of what was essentially a rape?] And my parents were the children of solid middle-class, working people, Catholics all (hence the incapacity/inability to think about birth-control). But they weren't uninformed or uneducated people...

So she had to work outside the home in a time where this just "wasn't done," and her guilt was enormous (this is the definition of love to me, as a child: you are loved when someone feels guilty over you... how messed up is that?) And there was a long stream of housekeeper-child minders, these black ladies were cheap enough in those days that my mother could afford them, even at her salary and the cost of raising four kids. How she did this, I will never know (I am a single parent, but only have one!). But these ladies, god bless them, truly - were not really looking after me, they were washing and ironing the clothes, they were cooking a meal, they were washing the floor. My siblings were older than I was, and were in school during the day, so I was alone a lot. I was 3 or 4. Fairly often, I would go take myself on walks, and "get lost," i.e. - walk away from the apartment complex and find myself in neighborhoods I didn't know, go up to the door of a house that I thought looked "nice" (in other words, one nicer than mine with a mommy and a daddy and 2 kids and a dog?), ring the doorbell, the police would be called, and they'd put me in the back of their cruiser, give me candy, and take me back home. Of course I could recite my address perfectly, as I was schooled to do. I would get back home, courtesy of the nice policemen, there would be much rejoicing and celebrating, and at least I had got a response... right?

The worst thing about the neglect was that others noticed that I was often not being watched, and one person in particular - the teenage babysitter's older sister - took advantage in a very nasty way. She would take me to their house, to her room, put me in her closet (!), and make me come out in "unusual" costumes, and then have me perform oral sex on her. Yes, indeed. At the tender age of 3 or 4, I found out there was evil in the world. And I couldn't figure out why she was making me do this, what the hell did I know about oral sex? I was a baby. But I still remember the taste of urine in my mouth... I felt afraid enough to just do what she asked me to do, and hope to get out of there as fast as I could. And this didn't happen just once or twice, it was ongoing for a while, at least until I figured out I shouldn't hang around on the sidewalk for too long, it was safer inside? Something like that... And of course, I never told my mother, because... why? I must have somehow blamed myself, or I was threatened, but I don't remember my thought process... I just didn't tell. Which, as we know now, is typical enough of children who've been abused.

But, Lee, as you say: every generation of paents does try to do better, and I think they do. I made a lot of promises to myself about childrearing. "When I have kids, I will never ______ ," you know - whatever - fill in the blank with a hundred things. As a mother myself, I think about the precautions we take now with our kids. When my daughter was an infant and a toddler, I NEVER let her out of my sight, and even though I had to work when she was little, I always made sure it was at a daycare where I KNEW she would never be out of anyone's sight. I could walk into this Montessori daycare place at ANY time of the day, and verify that (which I did, of course: "Oh, I just came over to have lunch" with my little girl, or arrive early, or just observe as all the parents were invited to do). And I think now: how the HELL was I allowed to be alone for so much of the time? What was my mother thinking? I know times were different 40 years ago, nobody talked about things like child abuse or child kidnapping, or murder... But, jesus, when I think about what COULD have happened to me, it's scary. And so I have watched my daughter like a mother lion, I was not going to be the same as my mother on that point. And my daughter has grown into a beautiful, confident, loving person who is a joy to be around. At 11, it's not over yet by a long shot, and the teen years (god help me!) are just around the bend, but, she has had a good start, and I think she has a good head on her shoulders for the inevitable "sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll" issues that will come up.

Like you, I love my mother too, don't get me wrong. She has always been a generous, loving person. I always felt loved. And she is smart and funny and beautiful. She has faced a lot of her demons, including her own deprssion (she's been on Celexa for a while), and she is doing much much better. Our relationship has changed A LOT, and for the better, but it's been a long process. She knows about my bipolar, and my meds, and she tries to even read up on it and she's sympathetic. As I am to her. It's been a long road, and I have never told her about the teenager who abused me (what purpose would that serve, except to make her feel horrible?), but we are in a much better place.

Lee, I don't know how you can say your post is full of anger...? "What came through in my post was my extreme anger - " Like me, you're essentially narrating the facts, horrible as they are, and narrating them honestly, without amplifying them or being cruel. The thing that always gets me in the narratives of child abuse, is how much we're still trying to protect them. My narrative included, with its caveats. But the tendency is to think "I'm bad for saying Mommy and Daddy were mean," when it's in fact they who were bad, not us. So I think protecting them is normal, but revealing yourself to others - but more importantly, to yourself - is such progress! Because this is the process: naming your experience for what it is, calling things by their real names, so that the healing can begin. You were not and ARE not a bad girl for saying that you were abused and neglected. You were HURT by your parents, the people who were supposed to love and care for you, and you still hurt over that. And now you see you can't hold onto it any longer. THAT is a wonderful thing. And YOU made it happen, made the leap into another stage of your life, I know it. And your posts are something to print out and take to a therapist, yes, as a way to start a conversation about how it all began. Your narrative is important, has meaning. By sharing it, you have helped yourself and others - a gift you have shown us many times since you started writing here. I look forward to more.

Thanks for listening, too,

Wendy

ps: Your husband is right about the meds, you take them so your brain stops functioning the same way it always did toward outside stressors, and then you can be ready for talk-therapy, because the meds are essentially making you more open to other ways of coping (I'm phrasing this badly) - your man sounds like a wonderful person, and I'm so glad you have him and his unconditional love.

 

Re: pax........jyl » leeran

Posted by fayeroe on April 26, 2003, at 14:03:18

In reply to Re: pax........jyl » fayeroe, posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 12:42:03

thank you all so much. i didn't read lee's post yesterday or today so didn't know what thread i was really getting totally into. thank god, i did it! my youngest daughter's ex boyfriend is here and we are setting up my yardsale for tomorrow. i'll write more later. thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

follow up

Posted by paxvox on April 26, 2003, at 15:29:47

In reply to Re: pax........jyl » leeran, posted by fayeroe on April 26, 2003, at 14:03:18

OK, Dr. Bob. You have earned your money's worth over the past 30 hours. Oh dear precious people....There is hope for the human race yet.
Like the ancient adage: a heavy burden carried by more than one becomes less of a burden, and a great joy shared with one's friends becomes unbriddled excitement. We have seen just now how tender the heart can be. How matter-of-factly we can discuss forces that are (or have already) ripping our hearts out. We talk of shame, speak of fear, whisper haunting memories yet dream for hope. When all else fails in this fallen world, when the pain seems too terrible to bear any longer, when we are ready in a desperate moment to cast our lives away, there remains hope. Thank you friends, because only one who loves others would share such things, for caring and sharing. Maybe, just may be we can all take pause and consider that we are not alone or unique, and therfore in a band of "brotherhood/sisterhood" hold out to catch each other when we see them fall. Offer words of wisdom or solice, thoughts of actions, suggestions for change. We can stand together, and hope for a tomorrow that is better than today.

With fondness,

PAX

 

Re: ... and another story (response is long, too) » wendy b.

Posted by leeran on April 27, 2003, at 14:14:05

In reply to Re: ... and another story (long) » leeran, posted by wendy b. on April 26, 2003, at 13:42:32

Wendy,

I’m going to go ahead and copy and paste this mishmash of words. I read your other post regarding posting and hearing back, and I realized that I could work on this ‘til the thread moved off the page and what good would that do?

In answer to your comment that I’m brave – believe me, I find myself the polar opposite of brave, but thank you for your kind words. I was so moved by your post that I read a few of the more generic portions aloud to my husband.

I want to keep this brief* . . . I'm testing my ability to do so . . .

First off, I'm glad you mentioned the caveat, which I so blatantly left out of both posts (or maybe I tried to cover my butt in my subsequent "adult view" post, but I didn't do it very well).

Regarding, as you so aptly put it, “the caveat:"

One reason I've never liked to grouse too much about my childhood is because I know that there are so many others who have had it a million times worse. And, given my personality, when that comes to mind, I feel even guiltier for feeling negative about what wasn't all that bad (?). Ahhhhh, the mind chases its own tail - around and around and around.

Your recount of your childhood reminds me of what an innocent time we seemed to grow up in (for some reason I've gotten the impression that we're in the same age group, but maybe not . . . if I've aged you with that statement, forgive me). Innocent in some respects, and horribly naive in others.

When my son was about two or three (he's 15 now), I would watch the little neighbor girl (the same age as my son), wandering down the driveway, unattended, clad only in her diaper. I was so conflicted . . . it happened nearly every Saturday and Sunday afternoon - and her parents were nowhere to be seen, nor were her three older brothers. I'm sure she would get up from her nap and just walk out the back door without being noticed. Her mother and I had a kind of “stand-offish” relationship and I was afraid she might become defensive if I walked her daughter back to the front door. She had three older children and I just had one and was already semi-jokingly considered to be the most protective mother in the neighborhood.

Sometimes, I would take the baby monitor with me (while my son slept upstairs in his room) and read on the front steps just to make sure she wouldn't wander out into the road. Eventually, someone would come out to retrieve her and I would keep my nose in the newspaper or a magazine so I wouldn't appear to be a nosey (nosey/nosy - Merriam Webster gives two options, I hate it when that happens) neighbor . . .

I finally got to the point that, if I saw her outside alone, I would go inside and sit away from a window because I couldn't stand the anxiety. Note: I also cover my eyes during movies that are only mildly nerve-wracking.

Not that this matters, but this was a very nice neighborhood across from a golf course (where there was quite a bit of traffic on weekend afternoons). She was the developer's daughter and their home had every amenity imaginable. Her family was well known in the community. I'm sure they "knew better" (that sounds so judgmental on my part) and they were probably busy with their other children. I don't know. I'm making excuses for them. It didn’t just happen once. It was usually every weekend (I worked outside the home so it may have been weekdays, too). Sometimes it would be 30 - 40 minutes that she would be outside in the driveway or on the sidewalk before anyone noticed (occasionally a close friend of the mother’s who lived across the street and who felt more comfortable taking her back inside would come to the rescue). As you can see, I’m still torn over my handling of that situation, which perhaps roots back to our society’s hesitation to interfere in “other people’s business.”

Thank God that you, Wendy B., returned safely home in your wanderings. A friend told me that each of us have a guardian angel that accompanies us everywhere we go. Although I’m more spiritual than religious (maybe I can’t say that here?), and I don’t want to inject religious tones into my posts, it would seem that your guardian angel was following you very closely during those walks of yours.

So much of everything seems to boil down to rationalizations. I'm sure my father thought "there's an adult in the house, I leave her with her mother all the time when things are 'normal.'" And it's true, I suppose I could have crept down there to the basement and asked her what was wrong but I was too afraid. Not that she would hit me, she never did that (nor did she ever physically abuse me in any manner), but just because I didn't want to see her crying, or hear the cold tone of her voice.

Over the years I've made many rationalizations in regard to my own son - #1 being the decision to divorce his father and then, five or so years later, the decision to move him 2000 miles away from his father. All the "wince worthy" stuff . . . "should I have stayed with his father and been miserable for years like my parents were? Should I have waited until my son was 18?"

Another moment of synchronicity occurred yesterday afternoon when I was originally writing this post. My son left a handwritten draft of a paper on my desk after typing it last week. I set it to the side because I wanted to read it, but it fell to the bottom of a stack. The teacher’s assignment to the class was an essay about one of the most significant events in each of their lives. My son’s subject was moving to California.

This is not the first time he’s written about this (I think this is a common subject every couple of years). Reading his views as a fifteen year old, after being here for almost four years was actually scary, given the last few days of examining my own childhood with a lice comb. After the first paragraph I thought “Oh no, HERE’S the other shoe. Everything I feel like I’ve opened myself up to personally in the last two days is going to come crashing down as my punishment (someone once told me my “God” is a punitive God) for writing about my own childhood on a public message board.”

His matter of fact words describing his goodbyes to his dad, stepmother, little sister and grandparents made my heart ache for him all over again. But then, in the subsequent paragraphs the descriptions of arriving here, the first year, the subsequent years were incredibly positive. Anything negative he experienced (and believe me, there were some negative moments of being bullied, made fun of for not taking drugs, etc.) didn’t even come through between the lines. I was amazed.

My perception of the last four years has been so clouded with guilt, fear, and worry that I’ve concentrated on the negative events he experienced and totally dismissed the positive aspects. He talked about bringing his grades up, making friends, taking up skateboarding, and at his last sentence was “Moving to California was one of the best decisions I have ever made.”

I don’t know my point. I think that it has something to do with the rationalizations we make that are sometimes healthy and other times unhealthy. In reality, my son didn’t really have a choice in the matter because he was younger than 14 and I had primary custody. My ex-husband didn’t dispute the matter when I filed my request with the courts, probably because he owed so much back child-support. However, during the six to eight months prior to moving my son and I went to counseling every other week regarding the move. Somehow, out of all of that he felt like he had a choice and could take some kind of ownership over the event.

Who knows, someday he might be talking about me on a message board, or sitting in a therapist’s office, but I know this – I would rather have him talk it all out, now, then, whenever – than carry the burden around by himself.

My point? Again, I don’t know. I rarely do. Maybe it’s better NOT to have a point? A marriage counselor told me years ago (when I was still trying to get over my first husband’s infidelity years after it happened): “If you were holding on to a hot piece of metal what would you do?” The obvious answer was “let it go.” Of course, the analogy being that if something is still hurting you, you have to eventually let it go. But, I don’t think I can throw it away without looking at it again.

Your story, Wendy, was painful to read, and I’m sure painful to tell (and even more painful to live), but getting it all out before letting it go has to help. Don’t you think? I have to believe that to be the case because it’s the only way I can hold onto hope, and isn’t that what got us through some of those unsavory childhood moments in the first place? I will never forget the little girl who came to the conclusion that the sidewalk wasn’t a safe place. But, I’ve also seen a glimpse of how it all turns out – a loving, intelligent mother with a daughter who means the world to her.

Each story I read makes me feel more nurturing – and nurtured. And makes me more willing to sit down with another human being, face to face (for a change), to tape up the package before I send it on its way one and for all. For me, Psycho-babble equals “pre-qualification of benefit.”

Thanks again, Wendy, for sharing so many wise words, and for taking us on a walk through your childhood. With every post I read I feel the loneliness of my own childhood drifting away. I agree with Pax. What makes pain so unbearable is bearing it alone.

Lee


*note - this experiment in brevity did NOT work


 

Re: ... and another story (long) » wendy b.

Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2003, at 15:44:27

In reply to Re: ... and another story (long) » leeran, posted by wendy b. on April 26, 2003, at 13:42:32

Wendy,

I'm so sorry those things happened to you.

I'm always so torn with my son. I wish he could have the freedom I had as a child. I was given a geographical area that I was free to roam for as long as I can remember. On the farm it was near the house and in the dairy area. When we moved to the suburbs, it was one or more blocks, depending on my age. And now... Well my neighbor never let his now grown daughter even play in his front yard without him being there, and I tend to go in that direction. I worry that I'm overprotective. My husband doesn't want to let him go on Boy Scout or church camps because of the things he's heard.

And yet I also remember the reality of the good old days. Things weren't really safer then. I think everyone just pretended they were. A little girl was snatched from her front yard in one of the houses directly behind mine and thrown in a trunk. Fortunately she was blessed with impressive lungs, and her captor with a less than airtight trunk, so she was released a couple of miles away, unharmed. I remember the two men that drove their car slowly beside me as I walked the dog. When one came out and approached me I yelled "sic em" as loud as I could. My dog amiably loped towards me while the guy jumped back in the car and they sped away. An old instructor of mine was recently arrested for a string of molestations of children that began well before my several years with him. He never bothered me. He gave me a bearhug once, I calmly informed him that I didn't like to be touched, and he became one of a suprisingly long line of full grown men who told my mother that they felt sorry for my future boyfriends. Then there was the pervert who liked to follow kids around at the public library and ummm.... rub himself enthusiastically.

I don't want to give my son the impression that the world is a dangerous place. And yet it is. Or at least that's my possibly warped perception.

 

Re: follow up

Posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2003, at 20:55:29

In reply to follow up, posted by paxvox on April 26, 2003, at 15:29:47

> OK, Dr. Bob. You have earned your money's worth over the past 30 hours.

Thanks. I guess...

Bob

 

Re: follow up

Posted by paxvox on April 28, 2003, at 16:38:49

In reply to Re: follow up, posted by Dr. Bob on April 27, 2003, at 20:55:29

No, Dr. B., I meant that in all earnestness. I have posted off and on amongst these boards for the past year or three. I have talked about many important issues, and read many touching and poignant stories. I have had some "meetings" here to develop into friendships and support systems where we have discussed more personal issues in greater detail (because we have gotten to know each other better to the level of "trust"). From this thread I started blossomed one of the more emotionally stiring string of cathartic "awakenings" that I have ever seen. And for that, I thank you for having this forum available at just the right time for those feelings to be vented. Perhaps some lives have been so positively affected by these postings, that the direction some people have been going will be radically changed for the better. So, again, I do thank you.

PAX

 

Re: follow up » paxvox

Posted by leeran on April 28, 2003, at 17:49:54

In reply to Re: follow up, posted by paxvox on April 28, 2003, at 16:38:49

Pax,

I agree. I wasn't sure I would have it in me to reply to your post. I grew up with that "Don't get involved - stay out of it - mind your own business" mentality.

Your poignant post was a vivid reminder of how I saw the world as an eight year old.

After writing two posts then backing out, I just finally went with the voice in my head that said "go ahead, for once stop thinking about what people think about you and take the risk."

My secrets suddenly don't seem as painful since hitting the "confirm" button. Of course, I also realize I need a lot more help in fusing my two sets of childhood memories - the good times and the not so good times, but I've seen that I can open the door just a crack . . . so that's a start.

Thanks again, Pax. Sometimes the planets are aligned correctly for all the right reasons.

Lee

 

Re: follow up

Posted by susan C on April 29, 2003, at 12:08:23

In reply to Re: follow up » paxvox, posted by leeran on April 28, 2003, at 17:49:54

Dear Leeran,
fusing childhood with today...that is a phrase which reminds me of so many things. I reminds me most that I have not visualized my "little one" in a long time, gathered her in my arms and hugged her, telling her I loved her and and everything would be ok.
Thanks for the reminder. I need to do this...to give my inside child the same love and attention my "outside" children received from me as a mother.
Take care everybody.
mouse with four arms for hugging

 

Re: follow up (long post)

Posted by paxvox on April 29, 2003, at 19:34:44

In reply to Re: follow up » paxvox, posted by leeran on April 28, 2003, at 17:49:54

That's great, Lee, and that's why I was sincere in my praise of this board. I know that is unusual for me. However, as I said, it showed that an open forum CAN be a place for the public disclosure of things we would certainly not talk about to people we actually "know". That may sound strange, because even I pointed out how I have gotten to "know" some people better from using these boards. But my point is, I wouldn't walk into the middle of my workplace or my church and start telling everybody "well, you know what's wrong with me...." But here, things are a little more anonymous; albeit we do KNOW things about each other, we really don't KNOW each other. So, there is a sort of safety zone here that allows me to say openly "hey, my life is sh*t right now" w/o having to worry about what people are going to think about us (that is, those we deal with daily in life). I think that for you, however, this has been a major breakthrough that will hopefully lead to a greater awakening for you. I personally have seen in myself, and in my wife, that one cannot run away from or wish away one's past life. Everything that has happened to us, or that we have done to others, has shaped who we are today. Some of us have put on many layers of dirt and crap that hide the gem that's inside of us, while others have taken a facade and shined it up to look as though it were a sparkling gem (when their insides are really all dirt and crap). It is, ultimately, up to us individually to decide the truth about where we are on that spectrum, and decide if we WANT to change where we are to where we want to be. Anyone who really WANTS to be a healthy person can become better when he/she applies the necessary agent of change. For some of us, this may mean having to journey back years into our lives to open up doors we have left closed, for fear of having to deal with what's behind them. If we choose NOT to open the door and deal with the problem, that does not make the problem go away, it makes us go away from it. Ultimately, I believe, that when we have the courage to face and then conquer the demons of our past lives, we can begin to LIVE again rather than just EXIST. This is where I find my life with my wife. She cannot or will not make that choice, so she will not get better. For me, I have come to the decision that for now, I will be in my marriage but not of my marriage. I will honor my pledge, and try to love my wife the best I can. If she rebufs me, I will say "OK, just wanted you to know I love you." As for my daugter, if she presents a negative environment, I will say "Alie and I are going out for awhile", and the two of us will go find something fun to do. I refuse to let her pull my daugter or me into her dark hole any longer. I cannot take the stress, and my daughter needs to know that "when mommy is sad" that it's no reflection on her (my daughter) and I will take her temporarily out of the toxic atmosphere. Hopefully, after some time, my wife will recognize that just because I said that I won't ever divorce her or leave her, that doesn't mean she is free to do whatever she wishes without ramifications. And my daughter will learn to understand that her mother's illness is not her fault, and that she will not have to suffer because of it. Now, I think I have laid it out all rather plainly. This is how I will learn to live rather than just survive.

PAX

 

Re: follow up (long post) » paxvox

Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2003, at 20:33:29

In reply to Re: follow up (long post), posted by paxvox on April 29, 2003, at 19:34:44

As you might have noticed, Pax, I have no problem with self disclosure. And these threads are moving and very helpful.

But I admit I also like the leaven of the silly threads too. They help provide the bonding that makes the other threads possible.

I'll bet a social scientist could make hay from the interplay between serious and lighthearded.

I admire your resolve. It sounds as if you are doing what will be best for your daughter. It is so important for her to know that none of this is her fault. I think a common thread running through all our stories is the feeling of responsibility on our parts or the lack of safety provided by our parents. If you provide a sense of safety for your daughter, and help relieve her of responsibility, you'll have done a wonderful thing for her.

 

Re: follow up (long post) » Dinah

Posted by susan C on April 29, 2003, at 21:58:56

In reply to Re: follow up (long post) » paxvox, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2003, at 20:33:29

Well said Dinah. If I could think of another way to say the exact same thing, I would.
mouse

 

Re: follow up (long post) » Dinah-and Mouse Woman

Posted by paxvox on April 30, 2003, at 19:56:00

In reply to Re: follow up (long post) » Dinah, posted by susan C on April 29, 2003, at 21:58:56

Thank you, kind dears. This just points out that we CAN use this forum for positive emoting w/o even the hint of a civility warning from the good Doctor. In numbers, there is strength. Organized strength becomes support; support develops into resolve. Hope. Three strands together are not easily torn. Be well.

PAX

 

Re: follow-up » paxvox

Posted by wendy b. on May 1, 2003, at 15:00:08

In reply to Re: follow up (long post) » Dinah-and Mouse Woman, posted by paxvox on April 30, 2003, at 19:56:00

Pax-Meister & Dinah & Susan,

I have been unable to post much in the last couple of days, but Pax's sentiments are so "on the mark," as they say... Susan and Dinah, thank you for keeping the conversation going... You both are very wise.
I think the sharing that's gone on in this thread is something I've never quite seen before, even though there have been many intense ones over the years. It's been very moving, and I think a positive reality-check and a help to Pax. The focus should be on the child right now. Adults have more options and more choices; kids just have to do what they're told. So their dependency makes them vulnerable, as we've seen in so many of the stories we have shared. Pax, I see that unfortunately, your wife's choice has been to ignore her responsibility to herself and to her child. Maintaining one's mental health is KEY, or we'll lose our kids one way or another - by alienating them, or frightening them, etc. I'm sorry but glad at the same time that you can feel supported in your decisions, Pax, and that you have the sense to at least take your little one out and go do what you want to do and HAVE FUN. The time you spend with her will be her salvation.
I wish you peace, Peace-Voice, Voice of Peace...

love, Wendy


> Thank you, kind dears. This just points out that we CAN use this forum for positive emoting w/o even the hint of a civility warning from the good Doctor. In numbers, there is strength. Organized strength becomes support; support develops into resolve. Hope. Three strands together are not easily torn. Be well.
>
> PAX

 

Re: hidden information

Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:42:41

In reply to hidden information, posted by justyourlaugh on April 24, 2003, at 7:39:42

I think that patients probably have a right to such info. If in doubt, ask to speak with the person at the hospital who is in charge of patient human rights. In fact, I think the patient human rights laws have to be posted where patients can read them and I would think (I don't know but think it logical) that this info would include who to contact if you think your rights have been violated or to learn more about your rights.

 

Re: hidden information

Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:45:50

In reply to Re: hidden information, posted by susan C on April 24, 2003, at 21:35:45

Susan,

that is such a powerful history. How painful.

 

Re: pax........

Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:54:29

In reply to Re: pax........ » justyourlaugh, posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 1:23:35

Leeran,

Thank you for sharing your feelings. Don't feel badly about the revelation. Having lived with the secret has been such a burden. A heavy, sad, burden for that little girl.

 

Re: follow up

Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 18:09:41

In reply to Re: follow up, posted by paxvox on April 28, 2003, at 16:38:49

Yes, this has been an incredibly emotionally stirring and moving thread. I am reading on the edge of my seat the personal histories you are all sharing and I am so struck by how strong and brave you all are. And by the beautiful way you write about your stories and write to each other about each others' stories. And by the tragedy and sadness that you had to endure.

I don't have much to add, but I am here, listening. And, with admiration at how you are working through all of the pain you have experienced.

 

Re: follow up (long post)

Posted by paxvox on May 1, 2003, at 20:28:37

In reply to Re: follow up (long post) » Dinah-and Mouse Woman, posted by paxvox on April 30, 2003, at 19:56:00

This has been a very profound thread, I'm glad so many of us took the time to share. This is what community is really all about. Thanks and love to all!

PAX

 

Re: follow up (long post)

Posted by susan C on May 1, 2003, at 21:20:32

In reply to Re: follow up (long post), posted by paxvox on May 1, 2003, at 20:28:37

There are many things we all do now to heal our lives. I go to the doctor, I have one I literally trust with my life; i take medicine, that helps, but, not completely; I try to eat well and manage the stress in my life; I have actively worked to surround myself with people who are understanding and supportive. It started when I found this site.

That was in late 1999 or 2000 I cant remember exactly, At the time I was unable to function. I was rapid cycling dramatically, with the downside being the most difficult. I was a recluse. I started to post and when I got replies that were so thoughful, I posted more. It gave me a platform. I remember thinking, I can take this or leave it. Any time I need to talk to someone, there is someone, sitting here in my living room. Time went by. I got to the point where even if I wasn't feeling all that great, at least I knew the signs/symptoms and could manage some. and I joined a group of women with the local parks department that do recreational things. I started walking twice a week. Often there was only myself and one or two others. It was often difficult to talk. Some days I wasn't sure I could make it out the door, but I knew my friend would be coming to pick me up (I don't drive), so out the door I went. After the walk, I felt different.

Time went by, and I added medication last september and began to feel better. It isn't wonderful. I know all times will never be great, tho sometimes are. I now know many wonderful people through the recreational group. I started going back to a club I had been attending before. When I showed up, at the beginning of the meeting, they introduced me, explaining I had been gone for several years due to illness. Everyone clapped.

Yesterday, I took a group of 8 on the train to a nearby city to the museum. I arranged it, bought the tickets, lead them through the big city to the museum and got them home again. I was the tour director, they called me "mom". This was the second time I had done this. The first one was a three hour public art walk through part of the city with 12 people. They were so appreciative, I decided that this was going to be my "thing" for the group. They told me this time they were going to "feed me ideas".

Today, I am exhausted. Today I read these posts. and I think of how much things have changed for me in the last year.

I am surrounded in my life with wonderful,thoughful, supportive people. Thank you, all of you.

mouse with her feet up


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