Psycho-Babble Social Thread 210088

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Re: doubts about this war

Posted by Tabitha on March 18, 2003, at 2:44:34

In reply to Peace Can Be Patriotic Too, posted by mair on March 17, 2003, at 16:15:19


The headlines disturbed me today, about Bush saying he'd go ahead with or without UN approval. I don't like the US going against UN to start war.

Then Bush saying it's now Saddam's choice to go to war or not, that just strikes me wrong, to issue an ultimatum and then blame the recipient for your actions. It's just squicky.

And P.S. whatever happened to the War on Terror, the Hunt for bin Laden, all that, it's like media just stopped talking about it. Are we supposed to forget about last year's arch-villian and get all fired up about this year's? It just sits bad with me, this recycled theme. (Now somebody's going to make me look really ignorant by telling me we already killed bin laden or something -- I don't read news much)

 

Re: Peace Can Be Patriotic Too mair

Posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 4:00:41

In reply to Peace Can Be Patriotic Too, posted by mair on March 17, 2003, at 16:15:19

I have long wished that people on all sides of most issues realized that people on the other side of that issue are not evil villains. They are people who wanted the same goals, but have different ideas about how to achieve them.

Sometimes we might really have to stretch our minds to remember that, and to see how the other people might feel, but I have always hoped that people would make the effort.

And Republicans don't have the corner on this tendency. :) I think it's human nature.

As someone who frequently (tho certainly not always) votes Republican, I can assure you that I don't even know what I think of the war myself, and I don't vilify those who believe it is morally wrong.

 

Great article in this month's Harper's...All + mair

Posted by beardedlady on March 18, 2003, at 6:21:18

In reply to Peace Can Be Patriotic Too, posted by mair on March 17, 2003, at 16:15:19

...about how patriotic is the voice of dissent. I can't link it now, as I'm on a tight schedule, but I'll try to do it later. It talks about the huge numbers of protesters who came out around the world at the same time on the same day in February and about how our government has discounted them as aging flower children, liberal professors, B-list actors--all of them uninformed and unenlightened.

By the way, Picasso's "Guernica" at the UN has been covered in a blue curtain. It appears on Harpers cover and on the New Yorker's cover (with a red curtain). The reason? It might have been embarrassing for Colin Powell to have his picture taken in front of that painting. (I guess it's a prime photo-op spot.)

beardy : (>
make raw not war

 

Sorry--Cause for Dissent is not on-line. (nm)

Posted by beardedlady on March 18, 2003, at 7:22:42

In reply to Great article in this month's Harper's...All + mair, posted by beardedlady on March 18, 2003, at 6:21:18

 

Re: Some Dems favor taking out Hussein, too shar

Posted by mair on March 18, 2003, at 7:26:55

In reply to Some Dems favor taking out Hussein, too (nm) mair, posted by shar on March 17, 2003, at 21:59:53

You're absolutely right, it shouldn't have been framed as a democrats vs. republicans issue particularly when the media claims that 60 % of Americans are in favor of this war.

Mair

 

Re: Peace Can Be Patriotic Too mair

Posted by fayeroe on March 18, 2003, at 11:06:22

In reply to Peace Can Be Patriotic Too, posted by mair on March 17, 2003, at 16:15:19

I support every word you said, Mair! I've felt this way for so long and I hate it that not wanting war makes people say I'm unpatriotic. Amen to you and your guts for speaking out! pat

 

Re: Doubts about this war.

Posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 16:20:14

In reply to Re: Peace Can Be Patriotic Too mair, posted by fayeroe on March 18, 2003, at 11:06:22

The scenario is macabre to me. Didn't Bush last week make Saddam destroy the weapons he did
'declare" ? And now he's warring against now that they have fewer weapons. War is never fair or reasonable but that is appaling, no not appalling, there aren't words really.

The U.S. has previously forcibly invaded countries using breach of U.N policy as the rationale .. Now that Bush is on the playing field its time to change the rules, rules that were previously important enough to kill for.

I think what frightens me the most, is that what in my opinion is an act of greed and the act of a dictator is being done under the cloke of freedom and civility.

 

Re: Doubts about this war...me too. Gabbix2

Posted by jay on March 18, 2003, at 17:59:14

In reply to Re: Doubts about this war., posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 16:20:14

> The scenario is macabre to me. Didn't Bush last week make Saddam destroy the weapons he did
> 'declare" ? And now he's warring against now that they have fewer weapons. War is never fair or reasonable but that is appaling, no not appalling, there aren't words really.
>
> The U.S. has previously forcibly invaded countries using breach of U.N policy as the rationale .. Now that Bush is on the playing field its time to change the rules, rules that were previously important enough to kill for.
>
> I think what frightens me the most, is that what in my opinion is an act of greed and the act of a dictator is being done under the cloke of freedom and civility.
>
>
>

There are a number of things I have learned in the past few days that send a chill up my spine, but may also sound the bell for the end of the 'American Empire'. (I hope I don't get blocked for this...as I am being civil.) Dr. Bob..I am stating some opinion, but am honestly trying *extra-hard* to be as civil for debate, as possible. Please...you know this is such an important subject to many, on all sides.

-According to 'The Nation' (Washington based politics mag), there are many in the Bush 'inner circle' who are deeply fearful of this man. This includes people who have worked in Republican Administrations going back to Nixon. The thinking is that Bush Jr. is trying to show off muscle, and lacking much knowledge of international politics or history, will do whatever he pleases to make it look like he 'is the man in charge'.(Don't forget, he has never, before becoming President, stepped foot outside America!!) He has apparently even ticked off his father and family, the former President Bush Sr., who had told him it was absolutely dangerous to attack Iraq without U.N. mandate.

-There is now talk that the Eurpoean Union may start to slowly force smaller countries into trading with the Euro (which is valued higher than the U.S. Dollar), which will devalue the American dollar further. The sad part is it will hurt the middle-class average American most at first, but considering 47 percent of your tax dollar goes to military spending, you aren't getting much return to begin with.

-The American enconomy is getting worse, bad enough as it is. (Of course if you are one of the few rich folks, hey you are happy!) Like Bush Sr., Bush Jr. will quite possibly lose the 2004 election because of his inability to govern his own country. (Lack of good domestic policy, they call it.)

Everyone needs to take a good hard look at these things, these questions, because Mr. Bush Jr. is not getting popular, or majority, support for his actions. While the American economy crumbles to bits, the world is going to withdraw from America
further, and the sad victims will be the average, middlle and lower class folks. And of course, no man, no country, can be an island on it's own.

Jay

 

Re: Must we? Gabbix2

Posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:25:54

In reply to Re: Doubts about this war., posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 16:20:14

I suppose we must. Sigh.

I don't think this war is a good idea.

But I don't think Bush is a dictator. I don't think he's evil. I don't think his greatest wish is to see dead Iraqi women and children.

I think he honestly believes what he says.

Just because he doesn't hold the same views as those who oppose the war does not mean that he is a monster. It just means that he doesn't hold the same views.

I don't really want to do this. Am I now considered evil because I hold a different view of Bush?

People on both sides of this debate have legitimate reasons for their views. I could, with reasonable accuracy, explain the thinking on both sides. Does anyone else on this entire board agree with me on that point?

Doesn't true love of peace require that a person stop caracaturing their "opponent" and instead try to understand their point of view?

 

Re: I'm sorry Gabbi. NOT DIRECTED AT YOU.

Posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:27:44

In reply to Re: Must we? Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:25:54

That d*mn button. I didn't mean that post for you. I just can't seem to master the use of that button.

I just wanted to add it to this thread. NOT to direct it at you.

 

Re: Gabbi, I sent you an email...

Posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:38:58

In reply to Re: I'm sorry Gabbi. NOT DIRECTED AT YOU., posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:27:44

apologizing some more.

 

Re: Peace Can Be Patriotic Too

Posted by coral on March 18, 2003, at 19:12:44

In reply to Peace Can Be Patriotic Too, posted by mair on March 17, 2003, at 16:15:19

Whether we agree or agree to disagree,the very fact that we can say what we please (except "fire" in a crowded theater) speaks volumes about our country. I have been in countries where, upon entry, all ALL reading materials, newspapers, magazines, books (including fiction) were confiscated by the military.

Do we get the whole story? No. Is it slanted? Sure. But, I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that what we're exposed to is far greater, in toto, than in any other country.

Nice thing, too, is if we don't like an elected official, we vote him/her out of office.

Coral

 

Re: Must we? Dinah

Posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 19:40:56

In reply to Re: Must we? Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:25:54

Dinah I was very careful in saying in my opinion it is the "act" of a dictator. Not that George Bush IS a dictator. That word was put in there very consciously. I share your distain for making people one dimensional.

 

The Blind Men and the Elephant- dinah

Posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 21:22:05

In reply to Re: Must we? Dinah, posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 19:40:56


I definately agree with you though, as strong as my views are, realistically how could I from my living room possibly have full comprehension of what is going on. It reminds me of the Fable of the "Blind men and the Elephant."
Where each man went up and touched the elephant.

The man who touched the tail thought the elephant was like a snake, the man who touched its leg, said it was like a tree trunk and after each man was finished they had a terrible fight about who was right. Lets skip the terrible fight part.
We need each other.


 

Re: The Blind Men and the Elephant- dinah Gabbix2

Posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 21:26:55

In reply to The Blind Men and the Elephant- dinah, posted by Gabbix2 on March 18, 2003, at 21:22:05

You're a sweetie Gabbi. I've always said it and I'll say it again.

((Gabbi))

Dinah

 

Re: Must we? Dinah

Posted by jay on March 19, 2003, at 0:24:22

In reply to Re: Must we? Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on March 18, 2003, at 18:25:54

Ok..I am trying to keep my cool here, as I am truly a very peaceful, social democrat pacifist.(As Gandhi said, though, don't mistake being pacifist for doing nothing.) But, when you add in the mental illness problem, and normal human emotions run amok, it feels personal. It feels like George Bush is not listening, doesn't care, and I feel very violated, my social conscience raped in a violent and brutal manner by his actions. I feel like all of the war-mongers are ready to come and spill the blood of my family (which could be an innocent family in Iraq). I feel Bush doesn't have regard for the millions upon millions upon MILLIONS around the world and in the US who oppose his unilateral action against Iraq. But, it feel's like the screams of millions fall on deaf ears. That makes me sad, very, very sad. So, I will say at least, I am proud that the country I live in refuses to participate in Mr. Bush's illegal overthrow of Iraq.

Check out this great music video to understand how I and so many others feel:
http://www.sonymusic.com/artists/SystemOfADown/Videos/BOOMVidFull.ram

"War Is Over...If You Want It...."
John Lennon

A very sad, somewhat angry,
Jay

 

Re: blocked for 2 weeks jay

Posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2003, at 0:46:54

In reply to Re: Must we? Dinah, posted by jay on March 19, 2003, at 0:24:22

> It feels like George Bush is not listening, doesn't care

> I feel Bush doesn't have regard for the millions upon millions upon MILLIONS around the world and in the US who oppose his unilateral action against Iraq.

Sorry, but I want to try to keep it supportive here, so I'm going to block you from posting for another 2 weeks.

Bob

PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.

 

Re: For Jay

Posted by Tabitha on March 19, 2003, at 2:58:40

In reply to Re: blocked for 2 weeks jay, posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2003, at 0:46:54

> > It feels like George Bush is not listening, doesn't care
>
> > I feel Bush doesn't have regard for the millions upon millions upon MILLIONS around the world and in the US who oppose his unilateral action against Iraq.
>
> Sorry, but I want to try to keep it supportive here, so I'm going to block you from posting for another 2 weeks.
>
> Bob
>
> PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.

Jay, I could see you were trying to heed Bob's warning and use "I" statements with the 'it feels like' and 'I feel' in your post. Just wanted to let you know someone noticed your efforts, even though Bob blocked you anyway.

 

Re: Peace Can Be Patriotic Too

Posted by Ginjoint on March 19, 2003, at 7:00:59

In reply to Peace Can Be Patriotic Too, posted by mair on March 17, 2003, at 16:15:19

I'm a liberal Democrat and not in favor of this war, for many reasons. But let us not forget that many countries who are also against it are also up to their eyeballs in ulterior motives of their own. I feel this is an enormously complex situation, not simply the peaceniks vs. the warmongers....there is very little innocence to be spread around anymore. :(

Ginjoint

 

Thank you for the link. jay

Posted by beardedlady on March 19, 2003, at 7:51:36

In reply to Re: Must we? Dinah, posted by jay on March 19, 2003, at 0:24:22

I really don't understand what went on here. I didn't see this post as uncivil, Jay. I don't know why the president's supporters are allowed to post their feelings, but his detractors get blocked.

I'm sorry this happened to you. Thank you for your contribution and for the link. I didn't think I liked "System of a Down," but this makes them worth another listen.

Peas.

beardy

 

Re: For Jay..

Posted by tina on March 19, 2003, at 9:10:33

In reply to Re: For Jay, posted by Tabitha on March 19, 2003, at 2:58:40

I'm sorry you're blocked Jay. I disagree with it and await your return.
supportively,
tina

 

Re: For Jay..

Posted by Gabbix2 on March 19, 2003, at 11:39:50

In reply to Re: For Jay.., posted by tina on March 19, 2003, at 9:10:33

I agree with Tabitha and Tina Jay.

 

Re: For Jay..

Posted by kara lynne on March 19, 2003, at 18:47:31

In reply to Re: For Jay.., posted by Gabbix2 on March 19, 2003, at 11:39:50

Unless there is something that went on prior to this that I don't understand, I completely agree with tina and Gabbix. I can't understand at all why Jay would have been blocked and it upsets me that he was.

 

war

Posted by sienna on March 19, 2003, at 20:42:52

In reply to Re: For Jay.., posted by kara lynne on March 19, 2003, at 18:47:31

is freaking me out i dont think i wanna talk about it here thoguh because i dont know how to and i dont want to upset anyone or get banned but im scared and i dont know but how can they play such horrific things on the news and then att and t is using it in advertising i dont understnad.

 

World Leaders and What They Say

Posted by IsoM on March 19, 2003, at 20:53:53

In reply to Re: For Jay.., posted by kara lynne on March 19, 2003, at 18:47:31

I'm simply stating something I saw on TV. How much was short chunks & didn't thoroughly reflect what was said, I can't say. Still, I found it rather disturbing.

About a week or so ago, Tony Blair had a discussion with ordinary British folks who were concerned about a possible war. One young woman (calmly & rationally) asked if he was willing to join a war where possibly millions of innocent Iraqi women & children could be killed according to a report she'd read. He replied that he was unaware of any such report, but if it were true, which he highly doubted, he'd never share in taking innocent lives. The young woman said, "but this report wasn't put out by the Iraq government but by the UN & they back it up with reasons." He shook his head & said there was no way that many innocents would be killed in a quick & clean war.

Then just last night on the news, Mr. Blair was explaining to parliament how many innocent lives of the Iraqi people Hussein has killed each year & that he's sure the number of civilians that would be killed by coalition troops in the war couldn't amount to the number Hussein has killed himself in one year.

Does anyone else find this as chilling as I do? Does anyone else see this as a way of justifying the war & of salving his own conscience?


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