Psycho-Babble Social Thread 16798

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Re: Music and Math » IsoM

Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:20:49

In reply to Re: Music and Math » Seamus2, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 2:45:16

In languages other than English, objects are often feminine or masculine. What is weird is that it changes from one language to the other (French vs. Spanish for example)! That's confusing...

In French and Spanish:
knife - masculine
spoon - feminine

 

Re: more Music and Math for Sid » sid

Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 13:39:25

In reply to Re: Music and Math » IsoM, posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:20:49

I've already gone to Brain Place from a post you left in PB. Now to try the tests...

So do objects seem masculine or feminine to you sometimes?

Hooray for you for solving that problem & no one else. Sounds to me like you're very good at math. Sounds like Kekule von Stradonitz, a chemist, who came up with the benzene ring theory after thinking & dreaming about it. He dreamed of a snake holding its tail in its mouth.

I know little about game theory, I'll have to look over the book you recommended & get back to you on some math books, specially about fractals. Not that I could do the math involved, it's just nice to learn about it without doing calculations.

I read about John Nash years ago & his game theory work. A *very* interesting, extremely intelligent man - not sure that I'd like him personally & not due to his illness but his personality in general. The movie sugar coats it.

Ahh, music & the brain. It has such powerful effects, both good & bad - but mostly good. I'm off to read more on the Brain Place....


> In languages other than English, objects are often feminine or masculine. What is weird is that it changes from one language to the other (French vs. Spanish for example)! That's confusing...
>
> In French and Spanish:
> knife - masculine
> spoon - feminine

 

Re: more Music and Math for Sid » IsoM

Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 14:11:45

In reply to Re: more Music and Math for Sid » sid, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 13:39:25

Yes, objects have gender to me because my mother tongue is French, where everything is either feminime or masculine. There is no concept of "it", just he and she in French (same in Spanish, Portuguese, and I suppose other latin-based language such as Romanian and Italian).

-Sid

 

Re: perspectives on math and abstract form-oops

Posted by susan C on January 16, 2002, at 17:09:38

In reply to perspectives on math and abstract form (nm) » Seamus2, posted by susan C on January 16, 2002, at 16:53:30

oops clicked the no message box by mistake. there is the message for seamus2 and who ever else is interested
http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/wavelets/haar.html.

The chart in Introduction is one i saw in an old Wired magaizine. Yes, i read all sorts of things. This particular graph caught my eye, particularly because I couldn't understand anything about it.

mouse playing hopscotch (a higher form of math)

 

Fibonacci Numbers for Sid

Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 19:13:49

In reply to Re: more Music and Math for Sid » IsoM, posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 14:11:45

Sid, here's an introduction to Fibonacci numbers that I promised. All of the info is on one page so depending on your download speed, it might take a while but is worth it. there's some neat little things to try too.

I really think this site would be useful in teaching students to develop an interest in numbers & why math is so important. Even if they never chose to do math themselves, they can still appreciate it. And we're never to old to develop that appreciation ourselves.

Fibonacci Numbers In Nature: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html

I'll get to the fractal geometry later.

 

Thanks IsoM !!! (nm) » IsoM

Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 20:04:42

In reply to Fibonacci Numbers for Sid, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 19:13:49

 

Re: Thanks IsoM !!!

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53

In reply to Thanks IsoM !!! (nm) » IsoM, posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 20:04:42

Babbledom people:
I have just foung this place. What have I missed and what kind of place is this?
Lou

 

Re: PB social side!!! » Lou Pilder

Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 20:56:19

In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53

I really haven't been on PB, either med or social side for very long - just lurked for a while as I suspect many did. There's some who know each other for quite a while now & drop back to check on each other. It's a nice, friendly atmosphere with lots of support for each other, ideas, suggestions, & humour too, not just all about our depression. The "I may be crazy but I'm not stupid" attitude is good - whatever it takes to help each other.

I notice there's more women than men here, but perhaps the men are a little shy, or think this is a women's den, or maybe just haven't discovered their nuturing side yet. The men here adds some interesting touches, I'd say! Welcome, Lou!


> Babbledom people:
> I have just foung this place. What have I missed and what kind of place is this?
> Lou

 

A man adds an interesting touch » IsoM, Lou Pilder

Posted by Jonathan on January 16, 2002, at 21:45:06

In reply to Re: PB social side!!! » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 20:56:19

> I notice there's more women than men here, but perhaps the men are a little shy, or think this is a women's den, or maybe just haven't discovered their nuturing side yet. The men here adds some interesting touches, I'd say! Welcome, Lou!

Here's a male mathematician's answer to Lou's question:

> > > What a group!!! Group people; If yo know the next number in this sequence, let me know. Lou
> > > 1,1,2,3,?
>
> Babbledom people: To clarify the Fibbonacci sequence 1,1,2,3, ? The next number is 5. Now someone tell me the next number in this sequence. Hint: It is not 7.

Let's see, 1, 1, 2, 3 and 5 obviously all fit the de Moivre-Binet formula

[(1+r)^n - (1-r)^n] / (r.2^n), where r is the square root of 5,

for n = 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. I'd guess that substituting n=6 and simplifying should give me the answer you require ... yes, the irrational number r mysteriously disappears like a Cheshire cat, leaving the answer eight :)

If you're over 16 years old < g >, then you may like to disable the parental controls on your web browser and look at a cute Argand diagram of the continuous, complex function described by this formula when n doesn't have to be a whole number. Example for Harry Potter fans: Fibonacci number nine-and-three-quarters is about 48.77 plus a very small multiple of the square root of -1, just enough to shift it off the real axis so that it can't be seen by muggles (as we call those unfortunate ordinary humans who don't share our mathemagical powers):

http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibFormula.html#binetReal

This is from Ron Knott's excellent web pages on the Fibonacci numbers, which start at

http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fib.html

Welcome to Dr-Bob's Psychomathemagical Babble, Lou.

Jonathan.

 

So Funny! Just Reading From That Site Today (nm) » Jonathan

Posted by IsoM on January 17, 2002, at 1:36:06

In reply to A man adds an interesting touch » IsoM, Lou Pilder, posted by Jonathan on January 16, 2002, at 21:45:06

 

Re: Thanks IsoM !!!

Posted by Seamus2 on January 17, 2002, at 1:43:48

In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53

> what kind of place is this?< <

A place where most of us know about the next number in a Fibonacci sequence!

Welcome aboard! Just got here yesterday, as a matter of fact.

Seamus

 

Re: Thanks IsoM !!!

Posted by lou pilder on January 17, 2002, at 5:58:05

In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Seamus2 on January 17, 2002, at 1:43:48

> > what kind of place is this?< <
>
> A place where most of us know about the next number in a Fibonacci sequence!
>
> Welcome aboard! Just got here yesterday, as a matter of fact.
>
> Seamus

What kind of ship am I on here?
Lou

 

Re: Thanks IsoM !!! » Lou Pilder

Posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 7:55:08

In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53

Basically, if you're not posting about medication, you come here. If you want to talk about the administration of this site (complaints, ideas, etc.), then yougo to the Psycho-Babble Administration page instead. We keep mixing our postings, so Dr Bob redirects us. We have trouble (at least I do) not posting on the wrong page when the conversation is interesting. Like the one on music and numbers !

Welcome!


> Babbledom people:
> I have just foung this place. What have I missed and what kind of place is this?
> Lou

 

Re: PB social side!!! » IsoM

Posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 7:56:41

In reply to Re: PB social side!!! » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 20:56:19

Perhaps talking about PMS all the time scares the men away! ;-)

 

To Lou and Jonathan

Posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 8:00:24

In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by lou pilder on January 17, 2002, at 5:58:05

I'd never heard of a Fibonacci sequence before... but I guessed the pattern anyway. Thanks for all the web sites about math, I'll be having lots of fun with them !

> > > what kind of place is this?< <
> >
> > A place where most of us know about the next number in a Fibonacci sequence!
> >
> > Welcome aboard! Just got here yesterday, as a matter of fact.
> >
> > Seamus
>
> What kind of ship am I on here?
> Lou

 

Re: To Lou and Jonathan » sid

Posted by Jonathan on January 17, 2002, at 16:53:33

In reply to To Lou and Jonathan, posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 8:00:24

> I'd never heard of a Fibonacci sequence before... but I guessed the pattern anyway.

Yes, the de Moivre-Binet formula is rather obvious - it's amazing that no-one thought of it before 1730 ;) Actually, guessing from so few terms that each is the sum of the previous two is impressive: I'm not sure if I could have done the same if I didn't already know some reasons why the sequence generated by this simple rule is so interesting.

> Thanks for all the web sites about math, I'll be having lots of fun with them !

It's nice to read the words `math' and `lots of fun' in the same sentence :) I'm glad you like the Fibonacci site. I found it independently, but am sorry I didn't notice earlier that IsoM had posted a link to it a couple of hours before I did; she deserves your thanks more than I do.

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020112/msgs/16860.html

and I've just found your reply thanking her for this post!

As Ron Knott says, "Like many results in Mathematics, it is often not the original discoverer who gets the glory of having their name attached to the result, but someone later!"

http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibFormula.html#finder

Jonathan.

 

PMS » sid

Posted by Jonathan on January 17, 2002, at 16:58:55

In reply to Re: PB social side!!! » IsoM, posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 7:56:41

> Perhaps talking about PMS all the time scares the men away! ;-)

I don't understand: why do you think that talking about polynomial metric spaces scares men more than women? If I dared to say the opposite I'd deservedly be flamed for political incorrectness.

Only kidding - please don't explain ;)

Perhaps the real reason why we men would rather chat in a nice friendly bar than PSB is because there's no beer here - but that's a medication issue, which belongs on the other board.

Jonathan.

 

Re: Fibonacci Numbers for Sid

Posted by lou pilder on January 18, 2002, at 17:56:34

In reply to Fibonacci Numbers for Sid, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 19:13:49

> Sid, here's an introduction to Fibonacci numbers that I promised. All of the info is on one page so depending on your download speed, it might take a while but is worth it. there's some neat little things to try too.
>
> I really think this site would be useful in teaching students to develop an interest in numbers & why math is so important. Even if they never chose to do math themselves, they can still appreciate it. And we're never to old to develop that appreciation ourselves.
>
> Fibonacci Numbers In Nature: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html
>
> I'll get to the fractal geometry later.

Babbledom people, help!
I believethat there is a cure to stop the music and that the cyre is mathematical. Think , I say, think.
Lou

 

Re: Another pattern person

Posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 2:42:43

In reply to Music and Math for sid, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 20:12:43


> I see life like a tapestry, almost everything I look at or observe, nature, people's social contacts, birds, clouds & sky with trees, it's all a pattern. I don't so much 'see' the patterns as 'sense' them. It's very much like there's another sense involved than the normal 5 senses but I have no name for it.
--------------------------------------------------

Hi IsoM---

It's nice to encounter another pattern person. Patterns--visual, auditory and virtual--have dominated my perception and cognition all of my life. I think of it as my x-ray sense, because patterns are the structural bones/skeletons of all matter (its internal and external relationships). Various applications of pattern recognition and memory are measurable aptitudes which seem to be partially heritable (Johnson O"Conner). I don't know how many have detected that these abilities are component parts of a pattern "sense"--or have written about it. I figured that I got an oversupply of pattern sense because I have so little of other more common (and useful) abilities. My ability to recognize or remember single items which don't make a pattern for me (visual observation) is near zero; and my ability to reorder patterns to create novel structures (creativity) is not much better.

Re music and math: For me, both of these are expressions of patterns. The written notation of music describe the temporal, tonal and rhythmic relationships of auditory patterns. Math notation describes virtual patterns (which may or may not be quantitative). I've always found the connectedness of patterns fascinating. For example, fractals are expressed physically (trees, fern leaves), auditorially (pink and brown noise, fractal music), visually (brilliantly colored "graphs") and virtually (financial market analysis). For me, reality is all about patterns, whichever perceptual sense is used and whatever notation describes them.

Thanks for the interesting thread!---medlib

P.S. Have you considered just recording the songs you'd like to remember? A musician could transcribe them from your recording, if you wish.
Beauty need not always be as ephemeral as normalcy.

 

Re: The gender of forms » IsoM

Posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 3:30:56

In reply to Re: Music and Math » Seamus2, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 2:45:16


> Seamus, do you get a feel about inanimate objects whether they're male or female? I do about some things like cutlery or other small objects. For example, a knife is male but spoons are female to me - same with numbers, some are male, some female.
--------------------------------------------------

IsoM--

I think there may be a human instinct to regard those forms containing curved shapes and/or obtuse angles as feminine and forms expressed by long, straight lines and/or acute angles as masculine.

With numerals, that would make 0, 2, 3, 6, and 8 feminine and 1, 4, 7 masculine. 5 and 9 might be transgender, depending on type font. Of course, 10 is clearly bisexual! Do you sense them that way?

Have you ever considered why Nature is a Mother and Time is a Father? I think it's because nature is mostly curved and time has been thought of as linear (at least until Einstein got hold of it).

A frivolously rambling medlib

 

Re: The gender of forms » medlib

Posted by lou pilder on January 19, 2002, at 7:32:58

In reply to Re: The gender of forms » IsoM, posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 3:30:56

>
> > Seamus, do you get a feel about inanimate objects whether they're male or female? I do about some things like cutlery or other small objects. For example, a knife is male but spoons are female to me - same with numbers, some are male, some female.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> IsoM--
>
> I think there may be a human instinct to regard those forms containing curved shapes and/or obtuse angles as feminine and forms expressed by long, straight lines and/or acute angles as masculine.
>
> With numerals, that would make 0, 2, 3, 6, and 8 feminine and 1, 4, 7 masculine. 5 and 9 might be transgender, depending on type font. Of course, 10 is clearly bisexual! Do you sense them that way?
>
> Have you ever considered why Nature is a Mother and Time is a Father? I think it's because nature is mostly curved and time has been thought of as linear (at least until Einstein got hold of it).
>
> A frivolously rambling medlib

Not frivolous at all. I believe that the Babbledom people will find a way to reverse the music so that it will stop. I percieve a collection of great minds here. We shall find the solution. Ten Babbledom people equal one nonBabbledom person. (Lou's Law of Babbledom)

 

Re: recording songs » medlib

Posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 11:45:25

In reply to Re: Another pattern person, posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 2:42:43

< < "...P.S. Have you considered just recording the songs you'd like to remember? A musician could transcribe them from your recording, if you wish."

Yes, I did try. Trouble is, I'm a perfectionist - not in all matters, but only in what I consider important to me. I know singing isn't really important but to me it is very much. People who've heard me sing say I have a lovely rich voice with a nice vibrato. My sons always loved my singing & still do as adults.

But I'm SO SHY about singing around others. I can get up in front of a couple hundred people & give a talk or speech - no stage fright at all, I'm a bit of a ham. But to sing?? I'd die & my voice would crack!

When I hear my singing voice recorded, I groan & vow *never* to sing again. I always do sing again but I hate hearing my singing voice except through my own ears. Lame excuse, I know. But I just CAN'T let anyone else hear me, or my recordings.

 

Re: The gender/nongender of forms » medlib

Posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 11:58:41

In reply to Re: The gender of forms » IsoM, posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 3:30:56

I liked reading your "frivolously ramblings", Medlib. So ramble away. I call my ramblings, blitherings. :)

About forms, it's a little different for me. Many objects don't have a gender for me, just the smaller ones I use or manipulate. As a child, I used to play with buttons for hours on end as my Mom had a big button box with all sorts. Some were fancy with rhinestones in them, some flat & plain - all types. For me the fancy ones were aristocracy, big flat buttons were carriages, etc. They all had personalities and/or gender. I built a society out of them.

I did the same thing with those little plastic toy animals in my sandbox.

For me, 5, 7, & 8 are male; 1, 2, 4 are female; 3 & 6 are children. 9 is the 'big boss' & 0 doesn't feel like anything. Even my different fingers have gender feeling to them. I also used to draw little faces on the back tips of my fingers & play with them when small. Nature, to me, is more male feeling than female too. Time is genderless, wonderfully abstract feeling.

I realise I sound a little nuts, but hey! I never was or get bored.

--------------------------------------------------
>
> IsoM--
>
> I think there may be a human instinct to regard those forms containing curved shapes and/or obtuse angles as feminine and forms expressed by long, straight lines and/or acute angles as masculine.
>
> With numerals, that would make 0, 2, 3, 6, and 8 feminine and 1, 4, 7 masculine. 5 and 9 might be transgender, depending on type font. Of course, 10 is clearly bisexual! Do you sense them that way?
>
> Have you ever considered why Nature is a Mother and Time is a Father? I think it's because nature is mostly curved and time has been thought of as linear (at least until Einstein got hold of it).
>
> A frivolously rambling medlib

 

Re: solving music/math mix-up » lou pilder

Posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 12:02:59

In reply to Re: The gender of forms » medlib, posted by lou pilder on January 19, 2002, at 7:32:58

Ah, Lou. I'm sorry to say, I have no idea of how to solve the mystery. It would need to be an intuitive thing for me & I have no feeling of how the pieces fit together. I know math & music use the same area of the brain, but they feel in different dimensions for me - not in the same plane at all.

I know doing math, I wouldn't be able to listen to music of ANY kind & still be able to calculate correctly. You'll need to eliminate this Babbledom person from your equation.
>
>
> Not frivolous at all. I believe that the Babbledom people will find a way to reverse the music so that it will stop. I percieve a collection of great minds here. We shall find the solution. Ten Babbledom people equal one nonBabbledom person. (Lou's Law of Babbledom)

 

Re: PMS » Jonathan

Posted by sid on January 19, 2002, at 14:36:20

In reply to PMS » sid, posted by Jonathan on January 17, 2002, at 16:58:55

lololololololololol !!!!!!

> > Perhaps talking about PMS all the time scares the men away! ;-)
>
> I don't understand: why do you think that talking about polynomial metric spaces scares men more than women? If I dared to say the opposite I'd deservedly be flamed for political incorrectness.
>
> Only kidding - please don't explain ;)
>
> Perhaps the real reason why we men would rather chat in a nice friendly bar than PSB is because there's no beer here - but that's a medication issue, which belongs on the other board.
>
> Jonathan.


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