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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
I've been pondering this idea that sometimes our Ts seem kind of like prostitutes, in that they offer to meet a need that we'd perhaps rather get met in our real life relationships. And we have to pay them for it. I've had that thought myself, toward various Ts.
Today I was pondering why we don't feel that way about other professions that help us in ways we might like to be helped in our non-professional relationships. Such as child care providers, massage therapists, maybe even teachers. (There are probably better examples, but that's what comes to mind at the moment.) The difference seems to be the emotional attachment.
But, do people get emotionally attached to prostitutes? I wouldn't know, but I thought not. I thought that was part of the appeal.
So, what is it, exactly, that makes the analogy so compelling? It's the paying, for sure.
At first I thought it was also about the fact that we wish they'd be available regardless of the pay. That would make the relationship feel more real. And it seems sooooo important that the relationship feel real. But, then, that's not like prostitution at all, as I understand it.
So, maybe instead it has something to do with the fact that we can't get this need met without paying someone. Which is kind of humiliating. And maybe that's why it feels like prostitution. So, the feeling that it's prostitution comes from our end, not really so much from theirs (other than their need to get paid).
Because, I really do believe that Ts, unlike prostitutes, are very engaged in what they are offering us. They are committed to their profession, and to us as clients, and to the idea of helping people. Not only to the idea of making money. I think this is very unlike prostitutes.
Just thinking out loud here.
Peg
Posted by Dinah on February 9, 2012, at 11:10:16
In reply to Ts as prostitutes, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
I think it might depend on the therapist, and possibly on the prostitute.
Even my therapist sees the comparison as being valid (making his anger a bit surprising). He says that a colleague used to use the comparison all the time.
Some therapists do offer a simple service, coaching or thought correction or whatever. Just as some prostitutes offer the simple service of sex.
In other therapies, the relationship *is* the therapy. And in those therapies, the therapist offers caring, support, etc. In mine, my therapist supports my calling him my therapist/mommy. And that caring presence in our life lasts just as long as the money holds out. I suspect some prostitutes offer the same thing. Not just sex for whatever period of time a brief encounter takes, but an ear and a shoulder as well as other parts on a longer term basis. Perhaps even some genuine affection on a detached basis. But it's clearly understood on both sides that the simulacrum of love is bought and paid for.
With me, it's definitely shame at my own need that leads to anger with him. If I didn't despise myself for paying for this limited form of "mother-love", I wouldn't despise him for providing it for pay. Along of course with his education and training and skills. (Although I suppose the same could be said for prostitutes.)
For the record, I don't actually despise prostitutes as a group of people. I think of them as individuals as much as anyone else. Though I would despise any that had sex with my husband of course. I like to know where he's been.
Posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 12:48:35
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes » pegasus, posted by Dinah on February 9, 2012, at 11:10:16
Yeah, but:
1. I don't think the therapists that offer a simple service, coaching or thought correction or whatever are the ones that we tend to angrily compare to prostitutes.
2. We get a caring presence in our lives from other professionals, where it also lasts only as long as the money holds out. I'm thinking here about my chiropractor, at the moment. She's so wonderful. But I have certainly never felt compelled to compare any of those relationships to prostitution.
3. When I compare my T to a prostitute, I'm not OK with that comparison. No matter what I may think about any prostitute as an individual. I'm saying that want my therapy to be something different than that.
I agree that the key seems to be around the shame/humiliation involved in wanting/needing that caring from our Ts, in combination with having to pay. If we weren't ashamed, maybe we wouldn't mind the financial transaction? *And* if we didn't have to pay, maybe the shame alone wouldn't make us feel like johns? I'm not so sure about either of those, actually.
P
Posted by Dinah on February 9, 2012, at 13:18:42
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes » Dinah, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 12:48:35
> 1. I don't think the therapists that offer a simple service, coaching or thought correction or whatever are the ones that we tend to angrily compare to prostitutes.
Definitely not. Even if we gave it that much thought, which we likely wouldn't with that type of therapist. They provide a service, we pay for it.
> 2. We get a caring presence in our lives from other professionals, where it also lasts only as long as the money holds out. I'm thinking here about my chiropractor, at the moment. She's so wonderful. But I have certainly never felt compelled to compare any of those relationships to prostitution.
I'm not sure what your relationship is like with your chiropractor, but would it be at all similar to therapy? Where we go to a private area and keep eye contact as we share deeper intimacy (however one sided) while they give us their undivided attention?
> 3. When I compare my T to a prostitute, I'm not OK with that comparison. No matter what I may think about any prostitute as an individual. I'm saying that want my therapy to be something different than that.
I'm not actually ok with it. But I find it a useful reminder of the truth.
> I agree that the key seems to be around the shame/humiliation involved in wanting/needing that caring from our Ts, in combination with having to pay. If we weren't ashamed, maybe we wouldn't mind the financial transaction? *And* if we didn't have to pay, maybe the shame alone wouldn't make us feel like johns? I'm not so sure about either of those, actually.
I think you were right in that part of the shame has to do with paying for something that "ought" to be part of our relationships. Balanced with the fact that therapy isn't really something we should find in our outside relationships. It's just got no template for us to neatly apply.
Posted by sigismund on February 9, 2012, at 18:42:32
In reply to Ts as prostitutes, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
Don't you think we might be a little unkind to prostitutes?
>But, do people get emotionally attached to prostitutes?
I would have thought so.
>I wouldn't know, but I thought not.
Yeah, me neither. Different strokes for different folks.
>I thought that was part of the appeal.
It wouldn't be for me.
I remember seeing a program where the girls (shall we say) spoke explicitly in terms of TLC.
Posted by Daisym on February 9, 2012, at 22:08:25
In reply to Ts as prostitutes, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
I think it is the set-up as well as everything also mentioned. Therapy is so personal and happens in such a private way. I love the description in "In Session."
I'm paraphrasing but she says something like: You go into a room where everything you do is private, knowing that someone has just been there and someone else is coming next. You shed your (emotional) clothing quickly...dive in and then get dressed and leave. Not very many people talk openly about being in therapy and the therapist can not identify their clients. And then there is the whole money issue. And the fact that we'd like to believe we are the only one.
I think other services are less secret and/or more acceptable in open discussion. And it doesn't bother us (much) to share.
But as much a I can see why the comparison gets made, I also see how it would be insulting to a therapist to be compared to a prostitute. Their caring is called into question, not to mention their motivations.
It is THE most complicated relationship I've ever had, for sure.
Posted by Raisinb on February 9, 2012, at 22:25:47
In reply to Ts as prostitutes, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
I have a basic belief that money should be separate from personal relations. Mixing the two makes me feel--well, dishonest, in some way, and thus I do not like that aspect of therapy. A couple of weeks ago a friend who I'm outgrowing (and who knows it) rather transparently tried to manipulate me with money. I'm renting a parking space from him. He told me when I got it that it was $150/month. But when I wasn't paying enough attention to him, he suddenly claimed it was $180 and he'd been paying the difference of of his pocket. That was it for him; I'm not some emotional prostitute. But then it occurred to me--that's what my therapist does, sort of?
Either way, therapy offends my dignity. Why should I have to "pay for it"? I mean, I do, but it pisses me off a little, because I feel it's a comment on my worth.
Posted by Dinah on February 10, 2012, at 7:49:27
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes, posted by Daisym on February 9, 2012, at 22:08:25
I love that too. The author really grasps the dynamics of therapy. After reading it, I understood better why so many people fall in love with their therapists. It's not *just* internal issues driving the transference. It's also the very real structure of therapy.
Posted by pegasus on February 10, 2012, at 13:27:38
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes, posted by Daisym on February 9, 2012, at 22:08:25
I think I'm pondering it so much right now, because I'm trying to figure out what a T could do to make it less like prostitution. I think I'm concluding that anything they did in that direction would make it less useful, as well.
Because aside from the intimacy and confidentiality -- strictly from the T's point of view -- I think it's pretty similar to other helping professions. I don't think there's anything inherently shameful in trying to help people change in a positive way, by working with them intimately, in exchange for money. Lots of other professionals do that, and we don't feel contempt for them. For example, all kinds of doctors (I almost said lawyers, but that's a terrible example). The difference is that we don't have to have an attached relationship with them, for their work to help us. If we did, would we hate them for their work, too?
And, of course, we all know that if we *didn't* pay Ts, most of them would not be able to do their work. They'd have to go do something else for a living. So, from that side, it's necessary for them to ask us to pay. That part is not like prostitution, any more than any job is like prostitution.
I do think Ts work a lot *differently* than prostitutes in some important, good ways (although sigi has a point that I may be painting prostitutes all with a too broad brush). Such as that the T is committed to us (if they're good), and they usually aspire to develop a real, positive relationship with us, and their main goal is to make lasting positive change in our lives.
Dinah, I don't mean to be picking on your conversation with your T here. This is a conversation I have had as well with Ts, and I'm mainly trying to unpack it for my own sake. Also, I provide counseling to clients, and I want to figure out what (if anything) I could do to make it feel less awful for them.
p
Posted by tetrix on February 15, 2012, at 0:40:47
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes » pegasus, posted by Dinah on February 9, 2012, at 11:10:16
that's because they are.
I am planning on starting a blog, an action for all those vulnerable who felt that they were used by their "therapist"
There is a lot of mess under the rug of therapy.
Posted by emmanuel98 on February 15, 2012, at 18:45:18
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes, posted by tetrix on February 15, 2012, at 0:40:47
There are clients who fancy they are in love with prostitutes they visit, though the feeling is usually not mutual. The difference with T's I think is that they encourage us to talk about these things honestly and to honestly deal with the limitations of the relationship. When I worried that my p-doc didn't care about me and wished I would move on -- something I worry about almost continually and express frequently -- he said, I don't need the money you know. I am financially well set and don't see you because of the money but because I am happy to see you. This helped. I know he doesn't need the money and never has. He takes his due, his fee, since this is the deal. It is professional, commercial relationship, however it may feel like a personal loving relationship. Yet it is also a loving personal relationship because T's -- unlike prostitutes -- don't go in it for the money, which isn't great, especially for p-docs who could do a lot better just seeing med patients. They go in it because they care about people and genuinely want to help.
Posted by Dinah on February 20, 2012, at 9:57:03
In reply to Ts as prostitutes, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
It's the strangest thing. My therapist and I discussed this thread without anger on his part at all. He even pretty much agreed.
I'll have to figure out what the difference was.
Posted by ron1953 on February 29, 2012, at 12:33:20
In reply to Re: Ts as prostitutes » pegasus, posted by Dinah on February 9, 2012, at 11:10:16
For better or for worse, therapists are quite often rent-a-friends, much like prostitutes. I think a real friend, or other peer support can be just as, or even more therapeutic. I think the original observations in the thread are quite worth considering. If it's genuinely helpful, great. Otherwise, there are probably better ways to spend money for a temporary feel-good fix.
Posted by chumbawumba on April 11, 2012, at 16:09:49
In reply to Ts as prostitutes, posted by pegasus on February 9, 2012, at 8:58:01
I've had this conversation with my T and we both agree that the job of a prostitute is very similar with the exception that many prostitutes don't enter the profession by choice.
Also, I'd say you are being a little hard on yourself with the statement "we can't get this need met without paying someone. Which is kind of humiliating." That's a pretty heavy judgement to lay on yourself. Remember to be kind to yourself.
If you were injured in a car accident is it humiliating to go to the hospital for treatment?
For whatever reason you've been wounded deeply and ordinary solutions are not helpful, so you seek a specialist. Would you want your wife or husband to set your broken bone? I doubt it. So give yourself a break.
This is the end of the thread.
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