![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Verloren on July 3, 2010, at 17:39:56
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » Verloren, posted by emilyp on July 3, 2010, at 15:03:35
I guess we do have different views.
Ada and I have discussed the issue and she understands me so that's all that matters.
I Would ask you to think about why you feel so strongly about my issue. And why you're so concerned with how I treat Ada when you are seeing one point of view, from a person so obviously more immature than yourself.
Our therpeutic experiences Cannot be compared. Perhaps there's a certain way you prefer to be treated as a therapist but you're not Ada and so your preferences do not apply in my situation.
I have not confused how or what I say to Ada and I don't appreciate your telling me that I'm confused about such things.
In my opinion and Ada's the harmful comment was not a big horrible thing and we've worked it through.
Yes this is a public forum. Thanks for reminding me since I seemed to forget that. I will not be posting on here as often from here on out. I don't like feeling belittled on a site where I mistakenly thought the community would offer insight and support.
It does sound like you are criticizing me especially when you start a post defending yourself from being critical. Therefore I'll choose not to subject myself to any more criticism from you by reading any more of your messages to me.
I'm Done
Posted by violette on July 3, 2010, at 18:18:09
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » Verloren, posted by emilyp on July 3, 2010, at 15:03:35
Emily,
Verloren has stated several times she is trying to better understand her behavior, looking at herself, examining her reactions, and also seeking help to understand and work through possible relational conflicts with her T.
I don't know if this applies to Verloren's situation, but some patients with childhood wounds (like me for example) need to be understood and accepted and develop trust with their T before change is realized or before "critical skills" as noted by you are learned or used consistently.
Is it possible, EmilyP, that you are pointing out the possible 'worst' in anyone to deflect from seeing your own issues?
Not just in this thread-but take a look at your posts from April in response to Widget and Rnny, for example....look a bit further than that-and note how people have stated several times they thought you may have misunderstood them...Do you see a pattern in your behavior as much as you 'see' and so strongly point out of Verloren's?
(I thought I'd look through your posts since I thought you once said you were a therapist, but was mistaken...that was another poster with a similar name.)
While many people would agree it's ok to disagree-there seems to be more going on here. I noticed how you have repeatedly stated in your posts how others need to 'be adults' or mature. I see Verloren as a person with many positive traits, who appears to be be using healthy-minded ways of dealing with her therapeutic issues--she's trying to deal with 'her stuff' by questioning, seeking, asking, and engaging in therapy.
Notice how many of your posts contain phrases such as:
"I don't mean to be rude, but"
"I don't mean to be mean, but..."
"I don't mean to be harsh, but..."
"I don't mean to be insensitive, but..."
"I don't mean to be critical, but..."On the contrary, after reading some of them, it seems you outline your intentions quite clearly.
I mean to be harsh (notice the word "don't" is missing from this sentenance) because I'm not sure how else to influence you to stop and take a look at your own issues to prevent you from possibly harming others (either here or IRL):
I'm just calling a bully as I see one-bullying in subtle ways can be MORE harmful that outright agression...and this was mean:
"Perhaps we don't see eye to eye because we are at different points in our lives, both in terms of true age (I don't know how old you are) and an emotional maturity age. I am not saying I am always the most mature. But over the last several years, I have focused a lot on learning to have those well-adjusted relationships...especially if one is an actual adult." -EmilyP
I wonder if it is you who actually has wishes to be 'coddled'?
"Finally, I am not trying to be critical or berate you." - EmilyP
Really?
"I would just ask you to think about what you are seeking from therapy." - EmilyP
Do you think that maybe you should ask yourself to think about what you are seeking from therapy?
It's also interesting that you promote CBT to others-yet you state your PDoc is you therapist (does he practice CBT?). Again, that pattern sounds familiar.
Maybe, then, you could talk to your PDoc/T about these concepts:
"Passive Aggression:
The individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by indirectly and unassertively expressing aggression toward others. There is a facade of overt compliance masking covert resistance, resentment, or hostility. Passive aggression often occurs in response to demands for independent action or performance or the lack of gratification of dependent wishes but may be adaptive for individuals in subordinate positions who have no other way to express assertiveness more avertly.Projection:
Attributing one's thoughts or impulses to another person. In common use, this is limited to unacceptable or undesirable impulses. Examples: (1) a man, unable to accept that he has competitive or hostile feelings about an acquaintance, says, He doesnt like me. (2) a woman, denying to herself that she has sexual feelings about a co-worker, accuses him, without basis, of flirt and described him as a wolf.Denial:
Failing to recognize obvious implications or consequences of a thought, act, or situation. Examples: (1) a person having an extramarital affair gives no thought to the possibility of pregnancy. (2) persons living near a volcano disregard the dangers involved. (3) a disabled person plans to return to former activities without planning a realistic program of rehabilitation.Devaluation:
The individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by attributing exaggerated negative qualities to self or others."You might find this website useful:
http://www.crosscreekcounseling.com/defense_mech.html
(Yes too many triggers on this site for me-I realize that and yes I am on my way out...but I am not apologizing for trying to prevent harm to others--especially the covert kind-what I think can be the most dangerous kind....)
Posted by violette on July 3, 2010, at 18:26:19
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » emilyp, posted by Verloren on July 3, 2010, at 17:39:56
Verloren,
I was writing out that last post before i saw your response where i saw you felt similar as I did about a reply to you...regardless, I want to say I'm sorry if I offended you in any way by writing that last post. I see that your way of handling the situation was perhaps more mature than mine...
Sorry, I just could not stand it any longer...and had to speak up....
Take care,
Violette
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 3, 2010, at 20:22:02
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » Verloren, posted by violette on July 3, 2010, at 18:26:19
I'm glad you and Ada are working through this. That is the whole point of therapy. Maybe what people reacted negatively to is your saying "you're harmful" rather than using what CBT therapists call "I" statements. I find that harmful. This feels harmful to me. I have learned to do this a lot with my husband and daughter and friends, as well as with my therapist. I say things like: I feel badgered by you. I'm afriad you're angry with me. I get defensive when you state things that way. It's helped me a lot.
Posted by emilyp on July 4, 2010, at 2:04:39
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » emilyp, posted by violette on July 3, 2010, at 18:18:09
1. I don't promote CBT or any specific form of therapy. It has nothing to do with the fact that my psychiatrist is my therapist. I have had a previous situation where my therapist was not my psychiatrist. (Then the therapist developed a life threatening disease and could no longer practice, so I have experienced a difficult therapeutic relationship and understand many of the issues that are involved.)
2. Perhaps all my posts start that way because I have found a pattern with many people on this site: only 100% agreement is allowed. If you bring up other perspectives you are considered mean or unsympathetic. It is also why I comment very infrequently. There is little willingness to engage in thoughtful debate.
3. I am certainly not the one who needs to be coddled. Regardless, I suspect most therapists don't see their role as coddlers. Yes, they can be compassionate and empathetic. But I don't think there is a class called Coddling that perspective therapists are required to take.
4. I have never said that I don't have my own issues. I know them well and I struggle with them in many ways. But the four traits you point out do not describe me in any way. Maybe you just want me to be the bad guy because I am not someone who always agrees and thinks the patient's behavior is always 100% acceptable.
5. I never diagnose anyone from their posts. I clearly don't think I have enough knowledge or understanding. Maybe it would be better if you got to know someone (beyond a few posts on a forum where no one uses their real name) before you started telling them what their problems are.
6. The only thing that I agree with you about is that you are critical and harsh, especially of someone who has not been critical of you.
7. Now I know why this community is so small. It has far less to do with Twitter or Facebook and much more about the fact that diversity is not appreciated - in fact it is not desired at all.
8. Finally, since you are defending Verloren and since she won't read my future posts, please tell her that in the future I will not comment on her posts. Clearly she wants other things from this forum than what I am able to contribute.
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2010, at 11:23:45
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » emilyp, posted by violette on July 3, 2010, at 18:18:09
That this seems to be just the sort of situation that was being discussed to begin with. Maybe before Dr. Bob gets involved, we as Psychology Board posters could show him an example of "I" phrasing.
In my experience both in therapy and on the boards, there are ways and ways of saying something. Not only for the sake of civility, but for the sake of having the person addressed hear and consider what you're saying. My therapist always says that there's no point in his saying something if he doesn't do it in a way that a client can really hear it.
Even if you (global you here) think you're right, and even if you're feeling hurt, it's possible to express all of those things while doing so in a way that is respectful and civil to all, and better yet, one that allows the other person room to hear and act. Oddly enough, sticking to I phrases and avoiding blaming others is not only civil on Babble, but it's also more effective.
If you can say it in such a way that it doesn't induce defensiveness, the chances of that person hearing the meaning of the words goes way way way up.
Here we have a situation where three people feel less likely to post here, and that with absolutely no input from Dr. Bob. I have faith in Psych board posters, that the thoroughly therapized can put that therapy to use in what can be an environment to try out things we learned in therapy.
I'm not addressing this to anyone on this thread in particular. I'm addressing it to the situation that has developed here. What would your therapist have you do here? What is the healthiest way to put what we've learned in therapy into practice? Was there any way the perceived truth could be expressed in a way that the hearer was more likely to listen?
This is a chance for the community to really decide if we want Dr. Bob sweeping in to keep order, which is a perfectly fine decision in my opinion. Or if in cases where there are misunderstandings and harsh words among those who had good intentions, the board would rather handle it themselves.
And if the board decides they'd rather I keep my mouth shut and let Dr. Bob handle it, that's fair enough. I know I'm sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong.
It's just that I care about all of you.
Verloren, I hope that you stay and feel free to discuss anything you want to discuss here. Anywhere there are people, there will be words that hurt. No one here means any harm to you, and everyone is trying in their own way to be helpful, I think. If a way isn't helpful to you, it's ok to point that out. Or if it could be helpful, but you think you've gotten the point, you can say that too. Civilly and respectfully of course. I think Emily was trying to help, based on her own experiences.
Emily, I hope you stay. I enjoy your point of view, and diversity is important. I do think Babble runs the risk of being one sided sometimes. Trying to help others here isn't something you should avoid just because it isn't always welcomed, although certainly it helps others even more if your point is made in a way that others are more likely to take it in. Please don't leave. It's terrible, but I can't quite recall the circumstances of your own therapy experience. I'd like to hear about it.
Violette, there are some other links I have on DBT about effectiveness. I gave you some earlier on mindfulness? I'd like it if you stayed around and we could continue our talks. I think I've bored people silly here, and would be glad to have someone to talk to.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2010, at 12:14:14
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » emilyp, posted by violette on July 3, 2010, at 18:18:09
> I mean to be harsh (notice the word "don't" is missing from this sentenance) because I'm not sure how else to influence you to stop and take a look at your own issues to prevent you from possibly harming others
>
> I'm just calling a bully as I see onePlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
emilyp, I'm also sorry if you felt hurt.
I appreciate efforts to keep this site supportive, and posters do tend to prefer friendly reminders from other posters to official notices from me and the deputy administrators, but the key to friendly reminders is being friendly, or at least civil. If you feel someone is being harmful, don't harm them, post something helpful. If you feel they're being uncivil, you can also use the "notify administrators" button to let us know.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2010, at 12:14:54
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » emilyp, posted by Verloren on July 3, 2010, at 6:44:53
> With Ada, she has been encouraging me to say my feelings and express myself. Even if that means saying "you're harmful".
>
> With other people, I can never say what's on my mind. Like at work for example. I'm content just being a follower. I don't like conflict so I stay on the sidelines a lot.I see Babble as somewhere between therapy and "real" life. Here, maybe you can't be as open as in therapy, but maybe you don't need to stay on the sidelines as much as usual, either.
Bob
Posted by violette on July 4, 2010, at 12:30:18
In reply to It occurs to me...., posted by Dinah on July 4, 2010, at 11:23:45
Dinah, it seems Emily and I already worked out our disagreements, but thanks for your concern for everyone.
There are a lot of triggers here for me--due to how it is managed and other things I already mentioned throughout different posts. It doesn't work well with my childhood abuse history. Especially that tip toeing around feeling that has been mentioned by several people besides me-and i didn't realize it at the time, but after looking up defenses and reading about passive agression, it occured to me having to so carefully word my phrases like "this is only my opinion", and worried about making generalizations, etc., and having to possibly word things to appease another is related to an abusive childhood enviornment where you could not be direct out of fear of upsetting a parent-and where actions and intent were often the opposite of spoken words which appear nice on the outside, but laced by harmful intent.
Thanks for mentioning DBT. I checked into it-and unfortunately, I am triggered by CBT therapy and it reminded me too much of that. A T I saw for 2 years tried to address my symptoms in similar ways-but it led to major panic attacks. To the point where I would start to panic on my way to her office.
DBT was designed to address the borderline construct, though I realize it can be used for all sorts of other emotinal regulation issues, and although I can relate, it just occurred to me I'm progressing to a state of full blown PTSD, which makes more sense why I can't do that type of therapy since it calls for a more customized therapy according to the individual.
Besides my past experience with therapy "methods" I have additional emotional triggers related to the whole CBT thing so it's just not good for me to use those sort of techniques.
Verloren already left, as did RNNY. I just don't find this to be a very supportive place-for many reasons, aside from medication and related questions. I've come across posts of people really crying for help, and just one person or no one answers, but when someone posts about H21A agonism and D3 receptors, will receive consirable responses.
You are very kind and supportive, always were. (BTW-I never found you boring!). I appreciate the diversity in thought as well, but i just wish this board would retain more people as supportive as you. Sometimes I think you idealize Dr. Bob.
It looks like you have someone else to talk to now-Christ-Empowered has started a new thread.
Yes, I am just too triggered by things here as a result of my background. Anyway, I feel a bit of closure now. Thanks and take care.
btw-I think my T would say addressing the situation as I did was more healthy than not.
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2010, at 12:50:03
In reply to Re: It occurs to me.... » Dinah, posted by violette on July 4, 2010, at 12:30:18
> You are very kind and supportive, always were. (BTW-I never found you boring!).
Thank you! But I suppose I tend to say the same things over and over as much as anyone. :)
> Sometimes I think you idealize Dr. Bob.
I know some people think so. Dr. Bob likely thinks I under-idealize him. You just happened to find me at a time when I didn't find him particularly unreasonable.
> It looks like you have someone else to talk to now-Christ-Empowered has started a new thread.
And I'm happy to see him. But posters aren't like washing machines. I can't move down to the next one when one is not available. I've enjoyed my conversations with *you*.
> Yes, I am just too triggered by things here as a result of my background. Anyway, I feel a bit of closure now. Thanks and take care.
Fair enough. And I'm glad you found closure.
Posted by Willful on July 4, 2010, at 13:17:58
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by violette on July 4, 2010, at 12:51:44
I wanted to add that I appreciate emilyp's perspective and often find helpful and insightful comments in her posts.
Different and sometimes questioning perspectives can be unwelcome at first, but may have a lot of offer.
Willful
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2010, at 13:26:49
In reply to Re: For what it's worth » Dinah, posted by violette on July 4, 2010, at 13:23:31
I meant for that to be supportive of you, and I hope my choosing to post didn't cause you more pain.
Posted by Dinah on July 4, 2010, at 13:29:13
In reply to 'You're Harmful!', posted by Verloren on July 1, 2010, at 12:56:28
Your thread got a bit off topic.
Yet strangely parallel in an odd sort of way.
I'm glad you and Ada spoke about it and repaired some of the rupture. If things are rarely as good as we secretly hope, they are rarely as bad as we fear either.
I really do think her words were meant to protect you, not to reject you.
Posted by helana on July 4, 2010, at 13:37:21
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by violette on July 4, 2010, at 12:51:44
Hi Verloren,
I know I haven't posted in awhile. I was wondering about the comment your T made, "we'll have to remember the boundaries since I am not your parent"...do you think it's a possibility that what she meant was that your parents didn't keep proper boundaries and that's why 'we' have to remember them because she wants to keep proper boundaries unlike your parents. Not that she was pointing out that she wasn't your mother but that she doesn't ACT like your mother/father (whoever didn't have boundaries). I also was wondering if it is possible that you don't always see when you may be crossing boundaries if your parent(s) didn't have good boundaries. What is always on your mind are the ways not to cross boundaries that you have been brought up with. So maybe what you consider boundary crossing isn't to her and what is boundary crossing in any parental relationship isn't to you? These obviously are just thoughts...I have asked these same questions in my therapy. Maybe I'm projecting here or maybe we have similar issues. Either way, talk to her about how you feel and discuss all of what you've messaged and it will lead to greater insight, i'm sure.
Posted by helana on July 4, 2010, at 13:40:39
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by helana on July 4, 2010, at 13:37:21
Hi again. I didn't read all the posts before my last message. I just read that you have already talked to Ada and yes that's all that matters!
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2010, at 14:06:21
In reply to Re: please be civil » violette, posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2010, at 12:14:14
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/953266.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by emilyp on July 4, 2010, at 14:19:18
In reply to Re: helpfulness of different perspectives, posted by Willful on July 4, 2010, at 13:17:58
Thank you for your comments. It is good to know that I have not pissed off the entire community.
Posted by annierose on July 4, 2010, at 22:48:34
In reply to Re: helpfulness of different perspectives » Willful, posted by emilyp on July 4, 2010, at 14:19:18
Your comments did not upset me either. I wss thinking about this thread, deciding if I wanted to add my two cents or not earlier in the day. Then I enjoyed the entire day with my family, came home, turned on the computer and read a few of the posts (not all by any means).
Often I think it is difficult for posters to hear what their therapists is trying to point out to them. Poster "V" felt her therapist was hurtful and when you tried to give her another perspective, I think she thought you were hurtful.
I liked reading your point of view.
I understand that V's therapist hurt her feelings. I have felt hurt by my therapist's words at one time or another. Often, it happens when my issues bump into something bigger, something I was trying hard to avoid feeling or untangeling or understanding. Often I learn from the experience.
I hope everyone on this thread stays and tries to learn and move forward
Posted by Maria01 on July 5, 2010, at 14:13:29
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!' » violette, posted by emilyp on July 4, 2010, at 2:04:39
Bravo! You have stated every reason why I post to this board infrequently. Any difference in opinion results in a civilty warning.
You are brave and articulate in your thoughts
Posted by violette on July 5, 2010, at 17:50:43
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!')))))emilyp, posted by Maria01 on July 5, 2010, at 14:13:29
I'd like to clarify something-the post you were referring to was a response to one of my posts; it had nothing to do with differences in opinion. Though it was interpreted that way, that was not my intent.
I had mistakenly thought another poster was devaluing-projecting upon others through communication mannerisms. In thinking she had thick defense mechanisms, in addition to some hypervigilance I was experiencing at the time, I had initially thought that 'being harsh' was the only way I could get my point across to the recipient.
I had acknowledged this was rude and inappropriate. But despite that, I either did not articulate myself well enough, others did not see the context through what I was initially describing-as unconscious motives are not always easy to identify (or in my case, can be mistaken), and/or none of the above. It had nothing to do with having a problem in differences in opinion; it was my response in regard to someone who said they felt 'belittled'.
Aside from, but relevant to, those involved in discussions here, I am starting to think that those who may pick up on this-whether it be real or erroneously felt, conscious or unconsious-may react with sensitivity.
Those expectations could be cultural or this concept could be more pronounced on this forum, but it seems those who may react sensitively to certain lingusitical styles are expected to adapt to those who may be more 'thick-skinned'/less sensitive to criticism, rather than the other way around. This is an observation as what is deemed civil or uncivil here-which does not seem to me to be related to differences in opinion, but instead, is judged by the administrator by unknown criteria (Lou P. could explain that more effectively than I). Others have mentioned the confusion.
Some social scientists have pointed out that from a cultural perspective, rather than a psychological perspective, certain traits associated with strength are viewed more favorably, at least in Western culture, than certain traits associated with fearfulness. And on a mental health forum, you might expect to see more individuals with polar levels of sensitivity.
If you came across other posts of mine, you might conclude I'm an enthusiastic proponent of expressions of differences in opinion and beliefs, and personally welcome disagreement, which I find more interesting than a group for which continual agreement is common.
Despite the miscommunication, I do understand where both you and Emily are coming from as I also do not feel comfortable in places were diversity in opinion is restricted, although I do have a very small list of exceptions, such as negative racial comments.
Posted by emilyp on July 5, 2010, at 19:41:42
In reply to Re: helpfulness of different perspectives » emilyp, posted by annierose on July 4, 2010, at 22:48:34
Thank you for taking the time to read the posts. But your day was much better for not replying and enjoying your family - it is always better than being in front of a computer.
Posted by emilyp on July 5, 2010, at 19:42:32
In reply to Re: 'You're Harmful!')))))emilyp, posted by Maria01 on July 5, 2010, at 14:13:29
Thank you for your nice words
Posted by Maria01 on July 5, 2010, at 19:54:53
In reply to differences in opinion » Maria01, posted by violette on July 5, 2010, at 17:50:43
I was responding to emilyp and emilyp only. Thanks.
Posted by violette on July 5, 2010, at 20:27:08
In reply to Re: differences in opinion)))Violette, posted by Maria01 on July 5, 2010, at 19:54:53
I was responding to anyone who is following this thread after having felt misunderstood, and also to anyone possibly interested in the discussion about differences in opinion.
Thanks.
Posted by Daisym on July 6, 2010, at 23:12:25
In reply to Re: differences in opinion)))Violette, posted by violette on July 5, 2010, at 20:27:08
I'd just like to chime in here that often messages are muddled or even completely misunderstood when unfortunate choices are made in the wording.
"Coddling" is often and usually used in a pejorative way.
Suggesting that something be done in an "adult" manner implies that it either hasn't been in the past or is unlikely to be without reminder in the present situation.
The reader is, of course, free to read into any post whatever tone they like. But word choice can influence this. I think this is where the difference of opinion becomes more than "just" a difference of opinion. The post could then possible take on a more critical or condescending tone than intended.
My two cents - for what it's worth.
This is the end of the thread.
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