Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 944698

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Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:44

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:46:27

> > I still think that the majority of those that struggle with depression or other mental illness had something in their past-recent, early development, or adolescence-that contributed to the development of their mental illness.
>
> This may be true of depression, but I would be interested to see some scientific investigation into the statistics that would lead you to conclude that it be a majority.
>
>
> - Scott

I agree. I would also like to see some thorough studies done in this area.

We could do our own little poll/study on psycho-babble. Maybe ask people here what their childhood was like and if they believe it contributed to their struggles. Of course people would have to be willing to be completely open and honest and in tuned with the full reality and complexity of what went on in early development and adolescence.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:45

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 15:04:53

> We could do our own little poll/study on psycho-babble. Maybe ask people here what their childhood was like and if they believe it contributed to their struggles. Of course people would have to be willing to be completely open and honest and in tuned with the full reality and complexity of what went on in early development and adolescence.

My guess is that it will be very difficult to find people who were free of psychosocial stress during their development.


- Scott

 

Re: nothing helps SLS

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:45

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:38:56

Just read your post in that link, it's a good one. I believe that many of mental illness do result from a genetic predisposition to some sort of brain disorder. Still, I believe that in most cases, this genetic predisposition develops to be something that is so crippling and disruptive because of the lack of nurture or the presence of stress/trauma in early development and adolescence. This is even the case with illnesses such as schizophrenia, where it may not have developed in the predisposed had there not been a trigger or triggers to set it in motion.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:46

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 15:16:54

> > We could do our own little poll/study on psycho-babble. Maybe ask people here what their childhood was like and if they believe it contributed to their struggles. Of course people would have to be willing to be completely open and honest and in tuned with the full reality and complexity of what went on in early development and adolescence.
>
> My guess is that it will be very difficult to find people who were free of psychosocial stress during their development.
>
>
> - Scott

This is my thinking as well. A major reason why I believe psychological stress and lack of proper nurture to be such a significant contributor to mental illness-for those that are more predisposed and those that are not.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by emmanuel98 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:46

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 16:40:55

I had a messed up childhood and no doubt that contributed to making me the way I was -- moody, irritable, prone to addiction, a workaholic.

But I got whacked by a biological depression at the age of 52 and I think it had little or anything to do with my personality issues. I was severely depressed and the depression had no content -- no worrying over things that might have been or crying about issues. I just couldn't get out of bed and thought about suicide, dreamed about suicide, planned to suicide. I took parnate and, within days, I was normal again. Not perfect and not without issues, but not depressed anymore.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:47

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by emmanuel98 on April 23, 2010, at 18:39:10

> I had a messed up childhood and no doubt that contributed to making me the way I was -- moody, irritable, prone to addiction, a workaholic.
>
> But I got whacked by a biological depression at the age of 52 and I think it had little or anything to do with my personality issues. I was severely depressed and the depression had no content -- no worrying over things that might have been or crying about issues. I just couldn't get out of bed and thought about suicide, dreamed about suicide, planned to suicide. I took parnate and, within days, I was normal again. Not perfect and not without issues, but not depressed anymore.

You don't think it's possible that your past left your psyche and biology in a state that was more vulnerable to this bout of depression?

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by Justherself54 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:47

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 18:50:55

I just have to look at my family history, past and present, to pretty much feel sure it's all genetic.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by emmanuel98 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:48

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 18:50:55

Not really. I got through 52 years without being severely depressed and I had just gotten through 3 years of therapy to deal with my "issues" when I got depressed. Have you ever read Peter Kramer -- Listening to Prozac? He thinks early trauma may make people susceptible to depression, but only if they have the short allele of a particular gene. I think there is a subtle interplay of biology and psychology, but that some people just get depressed.

I guess where I would agree with you is with people who are not severely depressed, but suffer from, what I might call, depressive personality disorder. They are negative, pessimistic and tend to have bouts of moderate depression all their lives. This may be more about childhood traumas and inadequacies than about biology.
>
> You don't think it's possible that your past left your psyche and biology in a state that was more vulnerable to this bout of depression?

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:48

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by Justherself54 on April 23, 2010, at 19:37:23

> I just have to look at my family history, past and present, to pretty much feel sure it's all genetic.

I'm sorry if this pisses you off, but I seriously doubt you had a perfect childhood. Do you remember everything that was going on when you were 2, 3, and 4 years old? Was your mom always able to be intimate with you? Did your mom ever suffer from depression or carry anxiety and stress during your crucial years of development? How would you even know if she had issues with connecting with you when you were too young to be able to remember? Did your parents always love you completely and utterly unconditionally without any expectations for you to be someone that they thought you should be? Did your parents ever fight? Did you ever feel like one of your siblings was better than you? Was your mother and father equally involved in your life always showing interest in you? Was your childhood completely free of criticism? Were your parents unreasonably strict? Did your parents spank you? Did your parents do everything in their power to ensure that you loved yourself unconditionally? Did your parents do everything in their power to ensure that you did not suffer from self esteem issues?(I know, basically the same question as before). Did your parents always compliment you when you did something good? Did your parents ever do anything to make you feel like they loved one of your siblings more than you?

My point here is that we now know parenting to be a very difficult very complicated job. Children are extremely fragile and delicate and need a whole lot of the right kind of nurturing in order to develop properly. And, some children need even more care and attention than others-or different care and attention.

 

Re: nothing helps morganator

Posted by Justherself54 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:49

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 20:49:47

I'm sorry if this pisses you off, but I seriously doubt you had a perfect childhood.

Ummm, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion from my very short sentence that I had a perfect childhood. Of course I didn't, who has? How does one determine a perfect childhood?

My family history is riddled with anxiety and depressive disorders. I know in my bones it's genetic.


 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:49

In reply to Re: nothing helps morganator, posted by Justherself54 on April 23, 2010, at 21:30:57

> I'm sorry if this pisses you off, but I seriously doubt you had a perfect childhood.
>
> Ummm, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion from my very short sentence that I had a perfect childhood. Of course I didn't, who has? How does one determine a perfect childhood?
>
> My family history is riddled with anxiety and depressive disorders. I know in my bones it's genetic.
>
>
>

I'm sorry for coming off the way I did in my last message. I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Think about this, if your parents were never treated for their struggles with anxiety and depression, don't you think it's possible that they were not equipped to give you what you needed, which in turn resulted in you struggling more with your predisposition than you would have? If your mother is experiencing anxiety and depression when you are very young, you are absorbing her negative energy like a sponge soaks up water, ultimately affecting your psychological development.

I just think you might be oversimplifying things as many do. It's easier to accept things this way. Then there is no reason to face the past and the possible anger, pain, and sadness you carry deep withing as a result of not getting what you needed. Then there is no reason to go to therapy and do all the hard work necessary to deal with what lingers inside you. Then you can just accept that the cure is in medication and medication will fix your flawed biology.

 

Re: nothing helps SLS

Posted by Bob on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:50

In reply to Re: nothing helps Linda Bee, posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 16:10:58

> > sorry to sound so pessimistic;
>
> Who could blame you? You are among friends here who have had experiences similar to yours. I have begun to resign myself to living in a depressed state indefinitely. Nothing helps.
>
> It looks as if your doctor is competent based upon the drugs he has selected for you. I had success combining MAOI drugs with TCA drugs twenty years ago. I no longer respond adequately to this treatment. Unfortunately, it is as good as it gets for me. Still, it makes sense to continue trying different treatments as they become available.
>
>
> - Scott


Man. I know it may very well be the case for many of us, but it is difficult to hear. In all your years of treatment Scott, have you ever tried ECT? I don't think I've ever heard you mention it.

 

Re: nothing helps morganator

Posted by Justherself54 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:50

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 22:16:26

>>Then there is no reason to face the past and the possible anger, pain, and sadness you carry deep withing as a result of not getting what you needed.

The only anger, pain and sadness I carry it due to the fact I have treatment resistance bipolar depression. I hold no anger, pain or sadness towards my parents for the bumps and bruises along the road of my life..they did the best they could with what they had at the time. That's life.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51

In reply to Re: nothing helps morganator, posted by Justherself54 on April 23, 2010, at 23:39:28

> >>Then there is no reason to face the past and the possible anger, pain, and sadness you carry deep withing as a result of not getting what you needed.
>
> The only anger, pain and sadness I carry it due to the fact I have treatment resistance bipolar depression. I hold no anger, pain or sadness towards my parents for the bumps and bruises along the road of my life..they did the best they could with what they had at the time. That's life.

This is true, that is life. This way of looking at things is viewed by many to also be a major coping mechanism.

I'm not directly consciously angry with my parents either, but subconsciously, I know the anger lurked for many years. Your view is a safe and conservative one. It reminds me of the view that all parents love their children-unfortunately, this is not true. This is a conservative belief. Who wants to think that a parent, or even worse, your(I mean this generally, not speaking of you) parent did not truly love their child. These are the intangible things that I believe we as a society have a difficult time with.

Just like most of us did not get what we needed in our childhood, most of us carry anger in our subconscious minds as a result. It is one of the most difficult things to face this anger and realize how much of a driving force it has been in our lives. You don't have to be an angry person to carry this anger and have it affect your life in a negative way. Some people are addicted to sex as a way of dealing with their anger. Some people act out in crazy ways as a result of their anger. I would even argue that anger could be one of several contributing factors to developing a more severe case of bipolar than may have developed without the anger.

You can never underestimate the subconscious mind. Never.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 24, 2010, at 0:28:07

I apologize if I am coming off as arrogant and opinionated. I am simply very passionate about what I believe in and can get a bit carried away in expressing those beliefs.

 

Re: nothing helps Bob

Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:52

In reply to Re: nothing helps SLS, posted by Bob on April 23, 2010, at 22:34:11

Hi Bob.

> Man. I know it may very well be the case for many of us, but it is difficult to hear. In all your years of treatment Scott, have you ever tried ECT? I don't think I've ever heard you mention it.

I had one course of ECT in 1991. I underwent 15 treatments. I experienced a mild improvement after the fifth treatment that lasted for a fraction of a day. Thereafter, nothing. The first six or seven treatments were unilateral left. The remainder were bilateral. I don't know what the dosage was. In a correspondence with Max Fink, he suggested that more recent protocols are more effective. Still, I am reluctant to do it again. I didn't like the way I was cognitively altered after the bilateral treatments. I know that high-dosage unilateral right is supposed to be almost as effective as bilateral or bitemporal, but with much reduced cognitive side effects.

I have not tried rTMS. I would if it were available locally and affordable. Early on, Mark George did not think it would be helpful in a case like mine. I'm not sure if his opinion has changed over the last decade. They have fine-tuned the treatment since then.

I appreciate your concern.

- Scott

 

Re: nothing helps morganator

Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:52

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 24, 2010, at 1:14:34

> I apologize if I am coming off as arrogant and opinionated. I am simply very passionate about what I believe in and can get a bit carried away in expressing those beliefs.

Me too!

Yes. Everyone has been exposed to psychosocial stress during their lifetimes.

I agree with you in that many, if not most, cases of depression are the result of an interaction between genetics and epigenetics, including stressful experiences. It occurs to me, though, that you will always find what you are looking for if perfection is the standard by which you compare all other experiences. Stress is a phenomenon that occurs with all forms of life. It is a state of challenge to homeostasis. It is probably necessary for psychological growth and improvement in man. An abnormal reaction (mental illness) to normal stress is pathology. How do you define pathological stress? I don't know. The line delineating normal and abnormal is probably fuzzy and somewhat arbitrary. However, it becomes easy to recognize as one moves away from that line. I have a problem with pronouncing every childhood as being riddled with pathological experience. Perhaps this is not your intent. So, the question becomes, has there ever been a childhood that you would deem normal and not a substrate for depression? Has not evolution built into the majority of us coping mechanisms - both physiological and psychobiological - to deal with the normal stresses of childhood?

I have bipolar disorder because I have a genetic vulnerability and I once stubbed my toes as a toddler. Sounds ridiculous, I know.

Abnormal reaction to normal stress?

Normal reaction to abnormal stress?

I guess it depends upon what you are looking for.


- Scott

 

Re: double double quotes emmanuel98

Posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2010, at 9:33:02

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by emmanuel98 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:48

> Have you ever read Peter Kramer -- Listening to Prozac?

I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon

The first time anyone refers to a book, a movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though.

Thanks!

Bob

 

Re: thanks (nm) morganator

Posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2010, at 9:33:44

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 23:46:12

In reply to Re: nothing helps morganator, posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:52

Hey Scott, I'm too tired and it's too late to answer all of your questions the way I would like to.

I will say this, I believe that proper parenting and nurturing is much more complex and involved than what you or others may believe it to be. IMO, it takes a whole lot to raise a well rounded individual that loves him/herself the way they need to in order to become a mature, capable, and content individual. It's not just about loving themselves, but also structure as well. I can't get into this now but I will give an example. I can almost guarantee that if we were to delve into the childhood of every person in jail that exhibits and has exhibited sociopathic(or anti-social) behavior, we would find specific aspects of their childhood that contributed to their developing into a sociopath. Is there a genetic component, sure, but most likely there was something/things going on in their development that caused them to become a sociopath. A child that had an abusive alcoholic father that would just beat the sh*t out of them for no good reason and then completely neglect them, not caring at all what they were ever up to, is vulnerable to becoming a sociopath and engaging in sociopathic behavior in their teens and adulthood. This has been studied over and over again. Have you ever listened to Love Line with Dr. Drew? If so, did you ever think it was interesting that with such little information and such a short conversation, Dr. Drew could usually guess what was going on in the caller's childhood that was contributing to their behavior. Maybe this is a crap example. Still, I think the guy knows what he is talking about. Anyway, we can pick up this discussion later and I will get to some of your other questions.

Morgan

 

Re: nothing helps morganator

Posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 6:33:25

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 23:46:12

I understand what you are saying.

What is the product of your belief system with regard to affective disorders?


- Scott

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by emilyp on April 26, 2010, at 12:51:16

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51

I don't mean to be rude, but in my opinion, I agree with your assessment: you are coming off arrogant and unwilling to hear other people.

Some people may agree with you; others may not. Some may partially agree with you. At the same time, isn't it possible that some people want to get on with their lives and not go back to their childhood. I had an alcoholic mother and a father who traveled all the time. Was my childhood perfect - not at all. Did my parents love me - yes, but in the way they could. Did it affect my depression - yes, But was it also biological - yes. Furthermore, despite my parents issues, they had a 40 year marriage and were best friends. So while they each had their own flaws, I also had something to emulate.

Having said all that, both of my parents have passed away. Thus, I need to figure out how to move on in life and for me, I don't think digging up issues from my childhood will help. For me (and I am only speaking for myself), that is a crutch - a way to play a victim and not take the necessary actions. Even if it is true, I cannot do anything about it and moaning over it will not help me with the depression. So, my decision is to work on life skills that I can have an effect on - ones that rely on the people currently in my life and where it will make my life better. My solution also involves medication, which helps a lot.

Pushing this belief that individuals cannot make improvements or even get better if they don't focus on their childhood is short-sighted and unfair to those who believe otherwise.

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:07:54

In reply to Re: nothing helps morganator, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 6:33:25

Good question. I'm having a pretty crappy day-typical fatigue and head clogged misery. So I'm going to come back to this when I feel better.

Morgan

 

Re: nothing helps morganator

Posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2010, at 20:17:13

In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:07:54

Hey, Morgan--feel better!

 

Re: nothing helps

Posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:27:25

In reply to Re: nothing helps morganator, posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2010, at 20:17:13

> Hey, Morgan--feel better!

Thank You! I really hope to figure out what is going on with me soon.


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