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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 17:51:05
I still don't understand transference and counter-transference. How does that work?
When I first started with my current counselor, she mentioned counter-transference as something that might happen. I don't know what she meant by that.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by seldomseen on February 16, 2009, at 18:41:35
In reply to Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 17:51:05
I'll take a stab at this...
Well, the short, short answer is that transference refers to feelings that the client may develop for the therapist, the therapeutic process, or anything related to therapy.
Countertransference refers to feelings that the therapist may develop for the client, or when in the presence of the client in response to their affect, what they are saying, or actions.
In some schools of psychiatry, transference can be used as a powerful tool to move the therapy forward and should be allowed to exist, be expressed and analyzed in the therapeutic space. These same schools quite often believe that countertransference, though typically not expressed to the client, is a valuable internal guide for the therapist.
Other schools dismiss transference as a remnant of the therapeutic process.
Most of the time transference is not typically thought of as a "real" feeling, but rather an aspect of the client or previous relationship that the client has projected onto the therapist for some reason or the other.
Yes, that is, IMO the short short answer.
My personal belief that my own therapist (psychodynamically oriented, but very much of the "whatever works" school of psychiatry) believes and has convinced me of is that transference feelings, good or bad, are real and natural reaction to the intimacy of the therapeutic space (rather contrived though that intimacy may be). He viewed it as a breakthrough, in fact, when I expressed that I was experiencing deep, powerful feelings for him. He literally clapped his hands together.
Sometimes I think he might be slightly bonkers himself.
But, then again, trust and attachment are HUGE issues for me, so the fact that I had developed some kind of reaction to him other than indifference and outright hostility was, in reality, a landmark therapeutic event for me.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on February 16, 2009, at 19:15:03
In reply to Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 17:51:05
It's used differently by different schools of thought. Some see it as any feeling felt by the client for the therapist (transference) or the therapist for the client (countertransference). While others use the more limited meaning of feelings the client has for the therapist that arises from the client's past experiences. Or vice versa.
For example, my therapist said with respect to his countertransference towards me that he had a problem with dependent women. He was instantly mortified and never referred to it again (although I did), and his attitude towards me changed markedly. He had recognized his countertransference, if in a somewhat different manner than he might prefer, and he dealt with it.
And I have a very pronounced parental transference with him. Given my previous experience with parents, this means something different to me than it might to someone else. If a client had a problem with authority, for example, they might see him as a cold and withholding authority figure or a punitive and angry authority figure. While I tend to have positive views of authority figures so my transference is largely positive. And I strongly suspect he has a positive countertransferential reaction to that. :)
But there is the real relationship too, where I see him for who he really is, and he sees me for who I really am.
And transference doesn't happen just in therapy. It can happen at work, or in romantic relationships, or on internet bulletin boards even. So theoretically, working with the transference in therapy, with a trained professional, helps people move to more balanced and healthy way of relating to others.
Or in my case, at least an amused appreciation or understanding of how the way I'm relating to people is only partly due to the immediate situation and partly due to my accumulated experiences.
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 8:15:05
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » SLS, posted by Dinah on February 16, 2009, at 19:15:03
Thank you for your explanations.
I am just a little uncomfortable with the idea that my psychotherapist would develop any kind of feelings towards me - good or bad - but particular of a romantic nature. Nah. Besides, she is married.
Even if I were to develop romantic feelings for her, why would I want to disclose this to her? Wouldn't that sabotage the treatment? Would she elect to suggest that I find someone else? There was a time early in my treatment with her that I did have an attraction towards her physically and emotionally. I shut that door pretty quick.
- Scott
Posted by antigua3 on February 17, 2009, at 9:24:41
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 8:15:05
Disclosing it will help your therapy.(I know, I sound like a broken record.) If she is as good as you say she is, I sincerely doubt she would refer you out.
antigua
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 9:39:09
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » SLS, posted by antigua3 on February 17, 2009, at 9:24:41
> Disclosing it will help your therapy.(I know, I sound like a broken record.) If she is as good as you say she is, I sincerely doubt she would refer you out.
> antiguaI guess it is my fantasy to wait for the very last session and disclose to her the thoughts and feelings that I had entertained, but chose to put aside. If she weren't married, I would have liked to ask her out, but I believe professional rules of conduct would not allow that for some period of time.
I think she may have a little crush on me. This might only be my childish ego that would come to such a conclusion. I feel kind of silly to think that way.
- Scott
Posted by antigua3 on February 17, 2009, at 11:23:05
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » antigua3, posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 9:39:09
If you wait until your last session, your therapy won't be over, it will just be beginning!
antigua
Posted by garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 11:53:35
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » SLS, posted by Dinah on February 16, 2009, at 19:15:03
"Or in my case, at least an amused appreciation or understanding of how the way I'm relating to people is only partly due to the immediate situation and partly due to my accumulated experiences."
-----------------------
To me, this concept of transferrence sounds like what you just said, but also by indicating the realm of subconscious in with that. I think transference is just a manifestation of self that comes from a person's mind w/o the ego shield and someone just had to put a label on it. Putting aside the ego shield just allows it to happen.My therapist once said I had transference with a helping professional, and I never quite understood what she meant. Now I really understand what she meant. But I don't believe that was the case.
Transference has too much in common with true love, the aspects of love that can be explained using psych terms and concepts w/o considering spirituality.
Posted by Phillipa on February 17, 2009, at 12:52:30
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » Dinah, posted by garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 11:53:35
I think I'm disclosing too much here but was transference and countertransference the reason I'm with my husband today. Hate to say this he was a patient of mine would not leave me alone always at nursing station interupting me and then when I went home hoped he'd still be there the next day and always checked when got to work. He became my companion getting things from other floors. But this was a chemical dependency unit as he used to drink. But he hugged me at the door before discharge and wanted to see me for a cup of coffee before his trip home to next state. I didn't know as new to chemical dependency that patients and staff were forbidden to see ex patients ever. I broke the rule and ever since the guilt is overwhelming. And to boot he was much younger and don't like younger men like older ones. Each day I wonder if I'm sick as I broke the rules and Nursing was my life. This feeling never leaves me. The guilt so was it transference and countertransference. That hug was like nothing ever experienced. Why did I break the rules? Oh I am probably not ever close as it wasn't a therapist. What was it then? Phillipa blabber mouth please don't show up on goggle.
Posted by garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 16:58:20
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by Phillipa on February 17, 2009, at 12:52:30
Phillipa!
I'd like to think of it a soul connection rather than transference.
"I broke the rule and ever since the guilt is overwhelming."
Following rules is not virtuous. We all have to follow rules to live in society, but you know what, in the suburb where I live it's against the law to back your car out of your driveway. Thousands back their cars out of their driveways everyday here. Does that mean they are wrong, bad, or criminal even though they broke the law?
While that rule may be there for a good reason, that does not mean if one breaks it they should feel guilty. How did that end your career in nursing? Couln't you go to work at another facility?
Don't beat yourself up about it. Love conquers all--right??
Posted by Phillipa on February 17, 2009, at 21:00:30
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 16:58:20
Garnet that is a long story meant for an e-mail. Have inactive license now for last year. Ridiculous about the cars as we all do here. Love Phillipa when have time write I'll explain.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on February 18, 2009, at 7:35:43
In reply to Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 17:51:05
Transference/counter-transference. It is simple.....In therapy it refers to the feelings the client and t have for each other.
Transference and counter-transference is present in ALL relationships.
If it is the classic Freudian transference, etc....that means you are reacting to your therapist (or someone else) because they remind you of someone in your past...for instance if you didn't like your mother and someone reminded you of her, you might react angrily towards that person.
Long story short.....(other than the Freudian transference).....those are just fancy therapy words for the feelings we feel for each other.
Sassy
Posted by backseatdriver on February 18, 2009, at 11:58:40
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » SLS, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 18, 2009, at 7:35:43
Scott,
If you suspect your T has has a crush on you, why not bring it up in session? At the very least, you will discover how reliable your perceptions are, and how well your T deals with intensely intimate stuff. These are good things to know, especially if the relationship develops in an extra-therapeutic direction. For instance, I doubt I could have a serious extra-analytic relationship with my T because he has trouble feeling happy and secure in a relationship that's totally equal. I discovered this the hard way (long story) but I'm glad I did because it really put the kibosh on the erotic transference-countertransference that was developing.
BSD
Posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 13:07:52
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by backseatdriver on February 18, 2009, at 11:58:40
Hi Backseatdriver.
* Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to post to me. I really do appreciate it.
> If you suspect your T has has a crush on you, why not bring it up in session?Ack!
Now *that* would take real courage.
You know, I think it might be worth bringing this stuff up, but I don't feel that it is the right time. I know, I know, it never seems like the right time. I'm not ready. I still fear that it might be self-defeating.
How would it help the relationship with my therapist if I were to ask her if she had a crush on me?
I still feel comfortable with just "wondering" occasional and not really pay it any more attention than that. I have been able to put it away. As far as any feelings or fantasies that I may have had early on, I seem to have simply allowed them to recede by not seriously entertaining the notion. It could never be, so why encourage the thoughts and feelings.
Under what circumstances would I want to disclose any of this? Is there something that I should look out for going on inside my head? It couldn't possibly be my being self-assured that all women want me. And if they don't, they should. :-)
I guess I must be mistaken. I don't think a good therapist would passively allow feelings to develop towards their clients. Am I expecting too much? I must be mistaking the smiles my therapist gives to everyone as being somehow special for me. Attentiveness. Stuff like that.
I guess I don't know what I would have to gain by questioning whether counter-transference is occurring. I could handle the word "no" with great ease. I don't think I could handle the word "yes" if it meant her havings feelings of romance or intimacy. I am scared to broach the subject.
I am still open to suggestions and education.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on February 18, 2009, at 13:18:22
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » SLS, posted by Dinah on February 16, 2009, at 19:15:03
>or on internet bulletin boards even
Yes
Posted by Phillipa on February 18, 2009, at 20:22:28
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » backseatdriver, posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 13:07:52
Scott meant jokingly you getting conceited???? Love Phillipa
Posted by backseatdriver on February 19, 2009, at 10:14:28
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » backseatdriver, posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 13:07:52
Hi Scott!
I'm going to play devil's advocate here for just one more post, and then I'll stop.
Here I am coming from: When it comes to relationships, I am the sort of person who rejects *herself* first, before giving the other person the chance to.
The long term results of this strategy have not been good. I have a pattern of relationships with people who are very safe, meaning very forceful, aggressive and direct in their expression of affection. In a way, this is reassuring to me, but after a while I start to wonder why I can't seem to attract anyone with any empathic sense, who knows how to pay close attention to my inner life, my shifts in mood, my perceptions. Of course, this is because I spurn anyone who is not coming on REAL strong. And people who come on REAL strong are often not the most empathic folk.
>How would it help the relationship with my therapist if
> I were to ask her if she had a crush on me?I don't think you can actually hurt your therapy relationship by saying anything. (*Doing* things - acting out - might be a different story, depends on the therapist. The older ones who've seen it all are more patient, I have found.) In any case, a good therapist -- and I think yours is good, otherwise you would not feel this way about her -- will not penalize you for saying anything. She will understand that whatever you say is, at the very least, important grist for the therapy mill.
>It could never be, so why encourage the thoughts and feelings.
This is where I get stuck, too. But I think if one *does* encourage the thoughts and feelings, then one gives oneself a precious gift: the opportunity to discover something important about yourself -- about what, and who, you desire. And with a therapist, you really can talk about these things.
Plus, for me anyway, it is important to fight against this first-order thought, which is that anything I desire is automatically not for me. I don't know if this is a pattern for you, specifically, but I thought I would flag it because it comes to mind when you say "It could never be."
I believe that because therapy is such an intimate relationship, Eros is always in the room in one way or another. And therapists are trained to deal with these feelings. Your therapist won't reject you. (If she does, I feel very strongly that you should walk away -- this is not a good therapist.) She will work with you to find a solution that works for both of you. Together, you will work out the problem. Eventually, understanding will take the place of disappointment. If your T is empathic, she probably already has a inkling of how you feel anyway. I think these feelings are hard to hide from someone who is paying attention (and hard to avoid having for that person - it feels so good to be cared for and attended to, how can one *not* fall at least a little in love?)
That said, I *do* take your point about timing. It is a serious question, when if ever to bring these feelings into the light. It might be wise to hold them, to keep them to yourself until you feel more comfortable. But if doing so will make you feel alone and isolated, I don't think the silence is worth it. In that case, I would heartily say: Seize the day! Chase it down! Clearly your T is special, and so are you. Why not take a really good look at what is right there between you and this special person?
I know, I know -- I'm talking big. I'm trying to live a bit larger myself, to be less afraid of other people, to be less sure that I am contemptible and worthy of rejection from the get-go. Forgive me if I'm being too forthright. I am a very shy person, trying to be less so. I'm grateful for patience. :)
Yours,
BSD
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2009, at 10:36:22
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by backseatdriver on February 19, 2009, at 10:14:28
Gosh BSD,
What a wonderful post. I can't thank you enough for helping me sort out some of my issues here. You know, some of what you said makes me realize that I might be storing away somewhere out of sight some feelings that I may still have for my therapist.
I am happy you were as "strong" as you were in being forthright in your writing. It really helps me to begin considering options.
I did not feel that you were coming on "too" strong. Not at all. I think when you really care about someone, you can become passionate in your attempts to help them. You demonstrated great clarity of thought. I thank you for that. I also thank you for feeling safe enough with me to disclose so much about yourself.
- Scott
Posted by backseatdriver on February 19, 2009, at 10:41:19
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » backseatdriver, posted by SLS on February 19, 2009, at 10:36:22
Posted by antigua3 on February 19, 2009, at 14:34:09
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference?, posted by backseatdriver on February 19, 2009, at 10:14:28
backseatdriver wrote an amazing post. I hope you read it carefully and take into consideration so many of the great points she made. She articulated things so well and I hope she has convinced you to take that step w/your T when you're ready.
I've already told you how important I think this would be to your therapy, but backseatdriver gave you some really specific things to consider. Please listen! :)
antigua
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2009, at 15:46:30
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? SLS » backseatdriver, posted by antigua3 on February 19, 2009, at 14:34:09
Posted by Kath on February 20, 2009, at 19:02:22
In reply to Re: Transference and Counter-Transference? » backseatdriver, posted by SLS on February 19, 2009, at 10:36:22
"When the Past Is Present" by David Richo.
My T recommended it. Have just begun to read it. It talks about how trans/countertranf is happening in our lives every day, not just with our therapists.
Kath
This is the end of the thread.
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