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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:01:02
In reply to The Board » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 15:59:30
The above is of course just my own musings, and I do not mean it to be "the truth". And I hope I was respectful of the views of all. If I've offended anyone, I apologize.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on August 11, 2008, at 16:25:00
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
> Seems to me a psychologist should be an enabler of growth that is totally apart from him. You get what you need from the guy. Then you thank him, shake his hand and move on. Instead, I read all of this strange dialog in which the relationship becomes an end in of itself, rather than a mechanism to healthy independence.
>
> This whole thing is so dysfunctional because it is so unbounded in its obsession with therapist relationships, not personal growth.
>
> Man...
>
> -H
>
-----While I understand and relate to some of your upset..... it's good to keep in mind that we all come from different places mentally. Some people maybe never had anyone care about them their whole life(I know I sure didn't) and aren't at a place where they can give that care to themselves.... like a young child with a caregiver --they may live and breathe this feeling and this person.... it feels safe and they finally feel cared about.It does concern me though, when a person continues this behavior long term.... I think the focus may become more about an obession than working on what one came to therapy for originally. There have been times in previous therapy where I have had to stop and ask myself- "Wait a minute, what did I originally come here for?"......
I get upset when my perception is that someone is stuck and been with the same therapist for 2+ years and aren't making progress, even seemingly getting worse.... it feels to me that the therapist is taking advantage of a person like this and I am a "fighter" for the wronged.... so my triggers take hold and anxiety goes up and I either have to quit reading or leave competely as I fear I'll say somehting that will be misunderstood and then "I'll" be the bad one!!I know of someone that has been in therapy for almost 3 years with the same therapist and all she focuses on now is THAT relationship. She cuts herself for thinking sexually about him as she feels guilty about it-- so how is this therapy helping her? I don't see it ...... I tried to switch her focus on to the things she wanted to work on in the first place, but then I got chewed out for it. She has never had a problem with males anyway..... always females, so I'd think she would be better off working with a female and mending those dysfunctional mindsets, rather than playing soap-opera with her current T. (BTW-- this is not about anyone here at psychobabble, and I'm not saying anyone here is playing "soap-opera", not at all.)
hope I didn't violate any guidelines-- yikes!... kind of scared to push "submit".....
a nervous.... flutterby-mandy
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:44:56
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » Hermitian, posted by fleeting flutterby on August 11, 2008, at 16:25:00
Maybe the problem isn't that she's thinking about her therapist but that that she's feeling guilty about the thoughts?
Part of how therapy can help is to teach people to accept that their thoughts and feelings aren't good or bad. They just are.
Her answer may not come from ceasing to desire her therapist. Her answer may come from accepting that she desires her therapist, accepting that that desire doesn't change the facts of the situation, and accepting that she can desire her therapist and have a good life. Learning to accept that can help her learn to accept many things, feelings and situations. If her response to feeling intense emotions is to hurt herself, the answer might not be to stop feeling the intense emotions, but to learn to live with them? Unless this is the only area in her life where she feels intense emotions.
I didn't even start therapy with my therapist for five years, except that I learned to trust him. In those five years, I probably obsessed a whole lot. I probably acted out a whole lot. I got much worse. My world was being shaken up. I was seeing what I was doing with my life. My therapist was pointing out that the sky was not blue, and clouds were not white.
Everyone is different. Some people may not enter therapy in the same place I did. Some people may not react in the same way I did. But for me, this process was necessary. It had taken me thirty odd years to build up the problems. It took a while to take it apart and put it back together again.
Posted by Phillipa on August 11, 2008, at 17:04:38
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:44:56
Dinah says a whole lot. Now you guys know I have no therapist but visit this board to learn. There was a time when CBT was going to be discussed if not mistaken. I just never fell in love with a therapist as most were female. Not condemming anyone. Will check the link to admin. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 17:53:57
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on August 11, 2008, at 17:04:38
Of course, *all* that being said, I have my doubts about therapy too. The whole structure is set up in such a way that it could cause a lot of harm, as well as being a means of accomplishing something good. I hear things about therapists that make me really wonder. A lot. I don't think anyone could read the board here regularly and not realize the potential for pain.
*But* I wouldn't blame the clients for being obsessed or for feeling attachment. *Even if* a particular client likes drama in relationships, surely that is an issue that needs to be addressed in a therapeutic and not blaming way. Moreover, I don't think it would be at all possible to say that clients in a dramatic therapy relationship like drama in their relationships, or don't want to move on, or are focusing on that instead of getting better.
I was a person who was the most pragmatic soul alive in relationships. I never fell in love with someone out of my league. I never fell in love with someone who wouldn't make an appropriate life mate. My decisions to date, my decision to marry, my decision to have a child, were all well thought out and totally rational, in their own limited way. I was also rational, limited, and totally neurotic in other ways.
It was my relationship with my therapist that threw me out of my nice sensible relationship standards. It was my relationship with my therapist that transcended my limits. Because my attachment to my therapist was irrational, totally overvalued, and in its own way unhealthy, I was able to relate to others in a way I never could have related before. Except maybe to my dogs.
It is so hard to describe. And maybe impossible to understand. And I suppose that's ok. I don't need other people to understand.
Dang. I'm making it sound like I think therapy is good again. While the truth is that I do see that it can be harmful. I wish they'd tighten those standards, although maybe the problem can also be a mismatch between client and therapist. Like with some parent/children combinations. Haven't they discovered that in addition to good parents and bad parents, there are good matches and bad matches?
Too many bad therapists and/or bad matches out there.
Posted by Lemonaide on August 11, 2008, at 18:01:24
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
Well for one, not to get blocked over this thread! lol So, I think there must be some positiveness here because I have certainly improved somewhat.
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 19:51:31
In reply to One thing I have learned from this site!, posted by Lemonaide on August 11, 2008, at 18:01:24
Hey, me neither.
It's certainly interesting though.
Posted by no_rose_garden on August 12, 2008, at 13:15:50
In reply to Re: One thing I have learned from this site! » Lemonaide, posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 19:51:31
Therapy is a totally different kind of relationship. It's so close, but you're not "allowed" to know anything about the other person. That's really not the way human nature works, i think. Also, not being allowed to know something makes it even more appealing to know...when somebody tells you not to do something....even when we're little...we really want to do it.
...just a thought...
Posted by fleeting flutterby on August 14, 2008, at 14:06:50
In reply to just a thought, posted by no_rose_garden on August 12, 2008, at 13:15:50
> Therapy is a totally different kind of relationship. It's so close, but you're not "allowed" to know anything about the other person. That's really not the way human nature works, i think. Also, not being allowed to know something makes it even more appealing to know...when somebody tells you not to do something....even when we're little...we really want to do it.
>
> ...just a thought...<<
---- been thinking about this. I think you make some very good points.I think though it might be more FEMALE human nature that struggles with this than males do(not that I mean to make this a gender issue-- but afterall men and women do deal with relationships differently).
I've often wondered why most posts about "attachment", "obession" or whatever one wants to call it-- with the therapist, is almost always written by a female.
I wonder if there's ever been a consideration of administering therapy in regards to "female nature" and "male nature" --types of developing with the therapist/client relationship??
Would therapy as we know it NOT even exist and be totally different if women would have been the founders of it? I wonder........
flutterby-mandy
Posted by fleeting flutterby on August 14, 2008, at 14:25:17
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:44:56
> Maybe the problem isn't that she's thinking about her therapist but that that she's feeling guilty about the thoughts?
>
> Part of how therapy can help is to teach people to accept that their thoughts and feelings aren't good or bad. They just are.
>
> Her answer may not come from ceasing to desire her therapist. Her answer may come from accepting that she desires her therapist, accepting that that desire doesn't change the facts of the situation, and accepting that she can desire her therapist and have a good life. Learning to accept that can help her learn to accept many things, feelings and situations. If her response to feeling intense emotions is to hurt herself, the answer might not be to stop feeling the intense emotions, but to learn to live with them? Unless this is the only area in her life where she feels intense emotions.
>
> I didn't even start therapy with my therapist for five years, except that I learned to trust him. In those five years, I probably obsessed a whole lot. I probably acted out a whole lot. I got much worse. My world was being shaken up. I was seeing what I was doing with my life. My therapist was pointing out that the sky was not blue, and clouds were not white.
>
> Everyone is different. Some people may not enter therapy in the same place I did. Some people may not react in the same way I did. But for me, this process was necessary. It had taken me thirty odd years to build up the problems. It took a while to take it apart and put it back together again.<<----sorry Dinah, it took me awhile to reply. I had to take some time to read and re-read this.... you are so very insightful and wise.(again, I hope you don't mind me saying so)
What you wrote makes much sense in regards to my acquintance. Here I'd thought if she just had a female therapist like I do, then she could maybe better progress-- but I guess it's all in what struggles one is trying to deal with.....
thank you for explaining this.
wishing you peace and comfort
flutteby-mandy
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2008, at 20:22:36
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » Dinah, posted by fleeting flutterby on August 14, 2008, at 14:25:17
It may be true that she'd make better progress with a female therapist.
It really does depend on what issues she's working on. And of course, how skilled her therapist is with working with her on those issues.
Thanks, Mandy.
Posted by Daisym on August 14, 2008, at 23:05:18
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2008, at 20:22:36
There are many, many studies that show how different therapy is now, as compared to pre-1970. Women have started to dominate the field, which for so long was a male profession. And the idea that women think differently and embrace different ways of knowing has been (mostly) incorporated into best-practice models these days. The relationship for women is really different, not that men don't get attached to their therapists.
I'll see if I can hunt up an article or two.
Posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:49:52
In reply to Feminist Therapy, posted by Daisym on August 14, 2008, at 23:05:18
I dunno about feminist therapy but Frieda Fromm Reichmann was a famous therapist of the war period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieda_Fromm-Reichmann
It's quite possible I just like her name.
But for some reason I associate her with Harry Stack Sullivan. Another good name. Who had some interestinmg ideas that came from his homosexuality.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Stack_Sullivan
My T was a woman, and I'm glad of that.
Posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:51:49
In reply to Re: Feminist Therapy » Daisym, posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:49:52
This.............
"He made his reputation based on his experimental treatment ward for schizophrenics at the Sheppard Pratt Hospital, between 1925-29. He employed specially trained ward attendants to work with the patients to provide them with the peer relationships he believed they'd missed out on during the latency period of development. Doctors, nurses and other authority figures were banned from the ward. He believed there was a homosexual element to latency age peer relationships and that a failure to go through this stage led to self-loathing, a withdrawal from the world in fantasy and psychosis, and a failure to move on to heterosexual adjustment. Thus the patients, who were all young male homosexuals as well as schizophrenics, in their positive interactions with the attendants, also young male homosexuals, would heal the wounds from missing male intimacy as pre-adolescents."
I was impressed.
Posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:53:19
In reply to Re: Feminist Therapy, posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:51:49
>would heal the wounds from missing male intimacy as pre-adolescents
Emphasis added.
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 11:45:19
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
It takes a lot to get through real mental illness.
You have no understanding of what mental illness really is, you have a very rational mind with very little desire to delve deeply into the issues. You reach conclusions quickly and often have much to feel sorry for .. although sometimes later, rather than sooner.
Good luck to you.
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 11:55:42
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
How does it feel to be psychoanalyzed so quickly and incorrectly? Or was some of it correct? Who will ever knoww?
Who were you judging?
Was it yourself?
Which aspect of yourself would it be, now?
Honey? Hello, anyone out there?
I suppose it's only fair to suspend me, too, now.
I have been Disrespectful of the disrespectful.
Posted by caraher on August 23, 2008, at 16:53:35
In reply to Read My Lips, Honey » Hermitian, posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 11:55:42
In honor of his/her eigenvalues, Hermitian is just "keepin' it real." In general Hermitian has complex entries, but transpose them and take their complex conjugates and you wind up with Hermitian's inverse.
(Thus endeth a rare foray into extreme math geek humor...)
Posted by caraher on August 23, 2008, at 16:55:38
In reply to Re: Read My Lips, Honey, posted by caraher on August 23, 2008, at 16:53:35
One more gag...
If you're unclear about that business about complex conjugates, simply find the imaginary parts and negate them.
(Yes, I know this is a poor clarification... yet another bad stab at geek humor)
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 18:27:00
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
I do concede that investigating a therapist's place of res, driving around the block, and all the other behaviours discussed are rather inelegant, however. Rather.
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 18:29:16
In reply to Re: Read My Lips, Honey - PS, posted by caraher on August 23, 2008, at 16:55:38
I like your sense of humour, I do.
Inverse, obtuse, adverse, love the verse, it don't matter to me.
Posted by caraher on August 24, 2008, at 7:36:44
In reply to Re: Read My Lips, Honey - PS » caraher, posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 18:29:16
actually, I realized I messed up my first Hermitian post but didn't want to post 3 times in a row to fix it. may the math gods forgive me! Please post if you can figure out what it is - I'm curious how many Babblers know linear algebra!
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on August 27, 2008, at 22:51:13
In reply to Re: This Whole Forum is Nuts! » Hermitian, posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 11:45:19
> You have no understanding of what mental illness really is
> you have a very rational mind with very little desire to delve deeply into the issues.Hi susan, it's really great to see you posting here :-) And...
I do have to ask you to please follow site guidelines by not jumping to conclusions about others.
>I suppose it's only fair to suspend me, too, now.
That wouldn't be fair at all. Not without reminding you of the civility guidelines first, and asking you follow them, anyway. I sincerely hope no other admin actions are needed.
>I have been Disrespectful of the disrespectful.Well, it's probably best to avoid any negative labels for any posters or their posts, but it does help to try to think of it as two wrongs not making a right...at least that helps me when I want to post something that could be uncivil.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by susan47 on August 28, 2008, at 11:27:15
In reply to Please be civil » susan47, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on August 27, 2008, at 22:51:13
Dear 10derHeart,
Thank you for your "please be civil" post to me. And I do apologize, because I wouldn't like someone posting about me like that either, and I know it was wrong. I'm not sorry though, and I don't know if they're the same thing. I apologize if I upset anyone. I'm not sorry I expressed myself. Perhaps in the future I could express myself a bit differently so I wouldn't have to apologize.
:) Thank you for understanding.
Posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 9:20:21
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
I don't know why I said you have a rational mind. Your mind would LIKE to be rational, perhaps? Just like mine. I'd like a rational mind. Wouldn't that be lovely?
This is how people get labeled crazy.
It isn't right.
It isn't fair.
It isn't anything I've done to myself, on purpose.
Do you understand?
Do you know what real unhappiness is?
Have you gotten in touch with yours?
Do you have any?
How happy are you, really?
This is the end of the thread.
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