Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 815743

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Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se

Posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2008, at 16:26:04

In reply to Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se Racer, posted by twinleaf on March 2, 2008, at 15:44:25

Any meds for high blood pressure etc he's on? Could interfer? Love Phillipa

 

Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se twinleaf

Posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:07:35

In reply to Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se Racer, posted by twinleaf on March 2, 2008, at 15:44:25

>
> In thinking over what I might say, the first thing that comes to my mind is "why?" is your husband uninterested, even averse, to sex? Has he permitted an in-depth exploration of this in your marriage counseling? If desire is absent, couldn't he do other things short of intercourse?

I think I gave up on talking about it as part of marriage counseling. No matter what I said, what our marriage counselor said, he never once said that he'd make any effort to change things -- only gave what he calls "reasons" why he couldn't do anything about it. As a result, we finally agreed that we'd stop marriage counseling in favor of him seeing a therapist on his own. It turned out that he's seeing our marriage counselor for individual, and every so often I go in, too, for a marriage session. But I get the feeling she's getting an up close and personal view of the rock which is atop my husband's neck.

> I know that you are in your early 40's, and more than one person here has met you and said that you were beautiful.

Which is very generous of them, and feels very good to hear. (Note to anyone who said that -- thank you. What's your rate for ego-massage? I'll gladly double it.) It's hard for me to take in these days, and part of me is screaming, "It doesn't matter a damn what you look like, because your husband doesn't want to touch you!" That's part of the problem -- even if I did leave that low door in the wall unlocked, even standing open, it still wouldn't be the same. It still wouldn't be as fulfilling as having a proper marital relationship with my husband. It would be fraught with feelings of insecurity, guilt, fear of being caught, etc. And fear of feeling too much for the other man, when my goal really is to stay married to the man I married.

Sorry -- I'm sounding negative, aren't I? For what it's worth, the linen line came to me at the Clarins counter in Nordstrom the other day, as I was asking for eye cream. The sales woman liked it, and asked if she could use it, too. I'm generous -- told her I was happy to share it. I do have some sense of humor about this -- but the sex drought has been going on for years now. And I am reaching my limits, but don't know what to do.

I feel very trapped -- if I give an ultimatum, I have to hold to it, and that means it has to be something I can live with. I don't want to leave him, which severely limits my options. "If you don't satisfy my sexual needs, I will" -- do what? Stop waxing my legs? He'd never notice. Sleep with someone else? That feels too dangerous to me -- that if I said that, he'd find the option behind door number three: leaving me. And I don't want that.

So, I feel trapped...

Thanks for answering. I don't know if there's anything in this post that makes any sense at all, but I did hear your words, and will consider them. The hell of it all is that I want that door open -- I want to hire a billboard, for crying out loud: "Racer is Ready! C'mon down!" I want to have my sexual needs met, and I want the opportunity to do so. I can't think of a way to do so without hurting my husband and my marriage.

Bah. What I really hate is that I'm the one suffering, and he's the one who has all the control over this issue...

 

Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se Racer

Posted by rskontos on March 2, 2008, at 17:24:13

In reply to I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: sex), posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 14:45:28

Racer, I agree with Twinleaf, it was a very moving post very heartful and it made me want for you and sad for your husband. why he can't the Racer we see. Why he won't try to be and have more. Well, I say if he won't join you then you must take care of yourself.

I think for a therapist to tell you that the option of going out of your marriage is big. I am sure your therapist really thought about this before he/she put that out there.

I also think that for you to go this long without sex in your marriage when you wish for it is hard.

My first thought when I read your post was why not. I don't think it is dirty at all, you have tried really hard to get your needs met in the marriage bed and DH said no. What else can you do except to join him in celebracy which is ok for him to decide but he made the choice for you as well. Without your input.

Please don't look into the mirror and project negative thoughts based on another's thoughts you have no way of really knowing. He has issues but you are not the issue nor the way you look. I believe you beautiful just the way you look.

I am a little confused though. If you go elsewhere for your needs, and your DH found out is he going to be angry. Or is this how you feel that you must leave the marriage in order to get your needs met.

And then there is just going for a test drive like you did with your car? To see if you still like to drive? I may be way out of line so I apologize. But hey, I too have had those thoughts. For different reasons though and not the right thread. I just want you to know you are not alone. But all kidding aside, you should have pleasure in your life especially if you miss it. For some, it would be ok. If you are not those some, then by all means see what the world has to offer you. I bet you will be surprised.

I think you are a special lady, and there are many out there I think would agree.

rsk

 

Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac

Posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2008, at 17:27:43

In reply to Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se Racer, posted by twinleaf on March 2, 2008, at 15:44:25

This is all very confused, but here goes......

For me the desire for sex is impossible without (an enormous amount of) psychological tenderness. Selflessness does it to me every time.
This is, I guess an idiosycratic thing, what turns people on.
I remember talking to a man who said he was turned on only by women under the age of (I forget) maybe 25 (which seemed disgusting to me, and I can be pretty strange). So different strokes for different folks. I can admire someone's looks in an erotic way, but that is a little different.

So anyway I clearly don't know what turns your husband on, Racer.
If though I went to marriage counselling and this was raised I would feel humiliated. I would be more likely to respond well to someone who said 'I don't care if you want me or not, I want you anyway.' This feels like the romantic imagination at work. Maybe I am expressing skepticism about the possiblity of our needs being met by a process of rational calculation? And yet I want my needs met. But I can't read The Happy Prince without being in tears before the end of the first page.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that people are not (should not be?) fundamentally turned on by looks. Not just young flesh, is what I mean.
I fell in love with someone through her voice.
But they are (sometimes) turned on by their partner's desire, which is why sex short of intercourse is better in theory than practice.

Of course jealousy is a pretty good aphrodisiac.

 

This is the spirit

Posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2008, at 17:41:30

In reply to Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac, posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2008, at 17:27:43

I just dont know what to do with myself
Dont know just what to do with myself
Im so used to doing everything with you
Planning everything for two
And now that were through

I just dont know what to do with my time
Im so lonesome for you its a crime
Going to the movie only makes me sad
Parties make me feel as bad
When Im not with you
I just dont know what to do

Like a summer rose
It needs the sun and rain
Oh, I need your sweet love
To beat all the pain

I just dont know what to do with myself
I just dont know what to do with myself
Baby, if your new love ever turns you down
Come back, I will be around
Just waiting for you
I dont know what else to do

Like a summer rose
It needs the sun and rain
Oh, I need your sweet love
To beat all the pain

I dont know just what to do with myself
I dont know just what to do with myself
Baby, if your new love ever turns you down
Come on back, I will be around
Just waiting for you
I dont know what else to do, no, no, no
I dont know what else to do
Im still so crazy for you, no, no, no, no
I dont know what else to do, no, no, no
Im still so crazy for you


Here is the wonderful clip, from 1965!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPnW0SvnZcA

 

Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac Sigismund

Posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:44:35

In reply to Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac, posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2008, at 17:27:43


> If though I went to marriage counselling and this was raised I would feel humiliated. I would be more likely to respond well to someone who said 'I don't care if you want me or not, I want you anyway.'

Just to make this clear: I did try to address the sex issue since it became an issue. I tried the "oh, you're napping? I need a nap too. Let's just snuggle a little, too..." After the second or third time, he started napping on the sofa -- which meant that I couldn't even snuggle with him, AND that I couldn't use the living room until he was up again.

Then I tried saying something about it -- "Gee, honey -- I miss sex with you. I love you, you turn me on, and I would like to share that with you again." The only reaction that got was him telling me that I was too fat. (While I was on Effexor, and had gained weight.) I didn't bring it up again for a couple of years.

Then it was the wedge I used to get us into marriage counseling. We needed the marriage counseling for other reasons, but he swore there was nothing to be done about any of them. The sex was the only thing he was willing to concede might have some solution available to us. And now, five years later, nothing has changed in the sex department. I have consistently told him that I am interested in sex with him -- because I love him, because I find him attractive, etc.

At this point, I am finding that my desire for him has faded a great deal. I think it's something to do with the anger and the pain of rejection. It hurts to be pushed away so many times.

So, Sigi -- you wanna get together for a drink? Maybe throw back a couple of VBs? See what comes of it?

Um... Maybe that's more effective for people who actually leave the house...

Thanks for answering.

 

Re: This is the spirit Sigismund

Posted by rskontos on March 2, 2008, at 17:47:20

In reply to This is the spirit, posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2008, at 17:41:30

Truly beautiful and inspiring. Thanks for the clip and now I am crying. rsk

 

Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac Racer

Posted by rskontos on March 2, 2008, at 17:50:03

In reply to Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac Sigismund, posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:44:35

Man Racer, I think in light of this and how much rejection I think it is amazing you have stuck it out for this long. That is alot of hurt. He is a lucky man that you still want him and he doesn't realize it!

I am sorry so sorry you have been through this.

rsk

 

Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac

Posted by caraher on March 2, 2008, at 17:50:11

In reply to Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac Sigismund, posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:44:35

No advice here beyond saying you shouldn't feel selfish or disloyal for wanting what your husband is not giving you. You still desire him and love him and want to make things better; that's as loyal as anyone can be.

So don't be so hard on yourself!

 

I like the late Dusty S, too (nm) rskontos

Posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:50:17

In reply to Re: This is the spirit Sigismund, posted by rskontos on March 2, 2008, at 17:47:20

 

Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac

Posted by wishingstar on March 2, 2008, at 18:57:31

In reply to Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac, posted by caraher on March 2, 2008, at 17:50:11

I have nothing productive to offer other than empathy and to say, I understand! This is perhaps one of biggest issues in my relationship as well, and we're not even married. There is so much emotion and meaning behind sex (at least for many) and the rejection hurts. Not to discount the physical desire piece! You're a woman and have sexual needs just like everyone else, and your husband is lucky to have someone like you who has been so patient with him. I'm wondering if he'd hear you on this issue more if you proposed this very idea to him - that if he isnt interested, then would be ok with you looking elsewhere for it? Without knowing him or anything about your marriage, I wonder if this might be a reality shock for him enough to make him realize that this really is an issue.

 

Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac

Posted by caraher on March 2, 2008, at 19:13:32

In reply to Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac, posted by wishingstar on March 2, 2008, at 18:57:31

> I'm wondering if he'd hear you on this issue more if you proposed this very idea to him - that if he isnt interested, then would be ok with you looking elsewhere for it?

Or if you don't want to bring it up as a proposal you're considering, just tell him that other have suggested that you look elsewhere. You can always raise the stakes later if you feel that's the right thing to do...

 

The reality......

Posted by twinleaf on March 2, 2008, at 19:47:57

In reply to Re: I sure hope this was a Modest Proposal (re: se twinleaf, posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:07:35

Yes. It's true, the amount of power the withholding person has is enormous. He may have felt, when he was young, that his mother controlled everything about him. If that's the case, every relationship he enters into may give him an opportunity to "turn the tables" and control and frustrate his partner.But it is true, as well, that it is VERY important that you fight hard to keep your sense of who YOU are undiminished- your intelligence, your caring and warmth, your wonderful sexuality. Even though you may worry a lot about your body (who doesn't?) and how attractive it is, in the scheme of things, there are probably millions of women far less attractive than you who have sexual partners who find them desirable. You know by now that the reasons for your marriage situation lies in him. It's not what you would have chosen.

As women, when (or if) we choose to go outside our marriages, it is very likely that we will come to care a lot about the sexual partners we choose. If we were men, it would probably be somewhat easier to separate sex and love, but as women, sex and love are more closely intertwined. Because of this an affair is not something to enter into lightly. Still, in a situation like yours, it seems right to keep an open mind about what you will do. I think it's important to allow yourself to fantasize in whatever way you want. It's so important, it seems to me, that you make choices that will give you the greatest opportunity to feel that you are lovable and valuable to yourself and to potential partners. Because your husband is in therapy now with your marriage counsellor, wouldn't it be reasonable to allow some time for him to try to work his sexual difficulties out? In the future, you may find yourself in an improved relationship with your husband, which would be wonderful, or you could find yourself moving away from your husband and towards other relationships. It is a big step to do that,

For now, keeping, and increasing, your own sense of your value as a person, and your identity as a loving and desirable sexual partner, is really important. Nobody knows what will happen in the future, but you can prepare for the best possible future by creating the best possible present.

If you google "oxytocin", it's pretty interesting!

 

Re: The reality......

Posted by rskontos on March 3, 2008, at 9:04:08

In reply to The reality......, posted by twinleaf on March 2, 2008, at 19:47:57

Twinleaf, I think you make some really good points. But this has been five years. How long has he been in therapy. And I thought it was not a good idea for the marriage counselor to see one of the couple as an individual. I truly hope Twinleaf is right that maybe with some time he will open back up to you Racer. I hear how much you love him and miss him.

Maybe he will see the light. Good luck with your decision. Know that I will support you in anything you decide to do as I see you an the individual that needs to take care of herself. I also see an intelligent woman that will make a decision for herself but thinks of the man she loves even if it doesn't seem like he is necessarily doing that at this point.

Take care, this is a tough situation. But as always you will handle this with grace and dignity. Otherwise you would have bailed a long time ago.

rsk

 

I'm hurting so much right now

Posted by Racer on March 3, 2008, at 18:26:09

In reply to The reality......, posted by twinleaf on March 2, 2008, at 19:47:57

Thank you to all who have responded. I'm sorry I haven't had it in me to respond individually, but I haven't -- so, a group thank you.

I spent most of the weekend crying, and had to leave class today because I just couldn't be there. And I have a special board meeting tonight that I cannot not attend, which feels like a sword hanging over my neck.

The thing is, no matter what I know in my head, my body knows something, too. My body knows that it's not being touched, that it's not being held, that its needs are not being met. Yes, I can take care of some of it, but lately that's left me feeling even worse.

I called my therapist, who'll come in on her day off to see me, so at least I can talk about this a little. I can tell her what a can of worms this opened up for me. I can ask her if she meant it as a Modest Proposal, to get the discussion going again, or if she just meant I should look for someone to meet these needs.

I'm so afraid that no one will ever touch me again! I am so very frightened that I will never be held again. I have so little in my life right now, and desperately need *something* to help fill the voids -- and aside from all the voids that I have to fill myself, there are one or two that require the involvement of a second body.

Damn. I hate this. I cannot manage to deal with this pain, it's just too much for me.

 

Re: ((((((((((Racer)))))))i am so sorry (nm) Racer

Posted by rskontos on March 3, 2008, at 19:15:59

In reply to I'm hurting so much right now, posted by Racer on March 3, 2008, at 18:26:09

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now Racer

Posted by Sigismund on March 3, 2008, at 20:37:59

In reply to I'm hurting so much right now, posted by Racer on March 3, 2008, at 18:26:09

The other thing is that your body knows there's not much time left for this sort of thing (I think) so that adds to the pressure.

Really, so much in life is a terrible waste.

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now Racer

Posted by seldomseen on March 4, 2008, at 10:14:19

In reply to I'm hurting so much right now, posted by Racer on March 3, 2008, at 18:26:09

Racer,
I am so sorry for all of this. I hope that you are feeling better today and that some of the acute trauma is resolving.

I have no idea what is going on with your husband. Do you think everything is okay "down there" with him. A lot of men don't want to talk about it. Just a thought.

Also, how do you think your husband would react if you expressed these fears to him? Are you in a place in your marriage where you would feel safe doing that?

I also wonder if some of this anxiety is also being triggered by the notion that you feel as though you may never be loved again, both literally and figuratively. You will and you are loved right now.

I'm not married, never have been, so I'm not going to hand out marital advice. Besides, (and I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this) only you know the dynamics of your relationship with your husband.

One thing I would suggest would be massage therapy if you feel as though you could tolerate it. It helped me to get over my "touch" phobia and the benefits of it are pretty long lasting.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help ease your mind, or your soul.

Take care and peace
Seldom

 

Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac

Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 4, 2008, at 10:38:16

In reply to Re: Jealousy is a good aphrodisiac Sigismund, posted by Racer on March 2, 2008, at 17:44:35

Just wanted to say the ONLY good thing in my marriage of 31 abusive years was sex....now divorced; may have a melt-down without sex; but i am hanging in there....3 years without....I didn't think I could go three HOURs without it.

Francesca (arrrghhh), LO

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now seldomseen

Posted by Racer on March 4, 2008, at 10:57:18

In reply to Re: I'm hurting so much right now Racer, posted by seldomseen on March 4, 2008, at 10:14:19

>
>
> o you think everything is okay "down there" with him. A lot of men don't want to talk about it. Just a thought.

It's a good thought. Everything is working just fine, and he is physically capable. He even gets physically aroused around me sometimes -- usually while I'm cooking breakfast. Somehow, I see that as a sign that this is psychological, since that's about the only time he is absolutely safe from it going anywhere...

>
> Also, how do you think your husband would react if you expressed these fears to him? Are you in a place in your marriage where you would feel safe doing that?

I've expressed that, usually in marriage counseling, but also alone at home. He just says that there's never time, that he's too busy, that there's nothing he can do, etc. In fact, I mostly keep my mouth shut these days, because I am so sick of hearing that everything in the world is beyond his control -- the marriage counselor and I have both said that he could make the decision to do something about his time management problems, but he denies that. And I get to feeling hopeless, because I see that continuing year after year, with no change.

The past week or so, it's been much worse -- since my T made her modest proposal. Now I look at my life: I can't have children, my husband has no interest in sex with me, everything around me is a mess, I feel so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of problems I am somehow supposed to address, housework is overwhelming and I have no help with that, and there's no one to comfort me.

The good news is that it's kinda strengthening the transference with my T -- I want desperately to put my head in her lap and cry. Of course, that's also yet another area where I can't have what I need, which is not so good...

Thank you for caring.

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now Racer

Posted by seldomseen on March 4, 2008, at 14:42:50

In reply to Re: I'm hurting so much right now seldomseen, posted by Racer on March 4, 2008, at 10:57:18

"The past week or so, it's been much worse -- since my T made her modest proposal. Now I look at my life: I can't have children, my husband has no interest in sex with me, everything around me is a mess, I feel so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of problems I am somehow supposed to address, housework is overwhelming and I have no help with that, and there's no one to comfort me..."

Actually, everything in your life is exactly the same as it was before your T brought this up. Absolutely nothing changed except a couple of sentences spoken by your therapist. There is now no more urgency to address those things than there was a week ago.

I think you might be "kitchen sinking" - an odd way I certainly have of managing problems by putting MORE problems on top of them - throwing everything in but the kitchen sink. It's a wonderful method I've developed to not address the actual problem at all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing what you feel - it WAS just a couple of sentences, but it resonated with you in a major way. In my opinion, THAT resonance is the heart of the issue here.

I wonder why her "modest proposal" set this off? Was it there all along and just needed a reason to get to the surface? Maybe she expressed a truth that you had been denying for sometime? Maybe she expressed a desire you had repressed, or gave you permission/showed you a way out?

I don't know Racer.

I guess it is an understatement to say that I think you should really talk to your therapist about how and why her proposal set off this spiral of these thoughts in your head.

When things are the most chaotic and seemingly the most hopeless, I have found those are the times for the most positive change. I would try to be patient with yourself and see where this leads.

Take care.

Seldom.

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now Racer

Posted by raisinb on March 4, 2008, at 16:02:30

In reply to I'm hurting so much right now, posted by Racer on March 3, 2008, at 18:26:09

Racer, I have nothing to offer except sympathy and admiration. I was in a relationship once where my boyfriend didn't want sex as often as I did, and I still felt incredibly rejected. I have to admire how well you are dealing with it without exploding at your husband or ceasing to love him. Touch and affection is something we all need, and you deserve it.

I also thought Seldom's post was incredibly thoughtful. I find that I'm incredibly sensitive to others' comments about my relationships--suddenly, when someone else comments, it becomes a *bigger* problem than it was if I was dealing with it alone. I don't know why that is, or if it's the same with you.

Regardless, this sounds really tough and I hope the time before your appointment moves quickly. Can you take your new car out and drive really fast with the music up really loud? That helps me :)

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now

Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2008, at 18:54:06

In reply to Re: I'm hurting so much right now Racer, posted by raisinb on March 4, 2008, at 16:02:30

The car did the proposal occurr when the car was purchased and you wanted to keep your old one? I am not a cousellor just thinking. Love Phillipa

 

I don't understand what you're asking? (nm) Phillipa

Posted by Racer on March 4, 2008, at 19:42:22

In reply to Re: I'm hurting so much right now, posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2008, at 18:54:06

 

Re: I'm hurting so much right now Phillipa

Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2008, at 19:48:35

In reply to Re: I'm hurting so much right now, posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2008, at 18:54:06

Racer I don't know I like solving problems and mysteries and something about old car and new car triggered maybe some connection. But not sure what it is. It would have to mean something to you for it to have revelence. And I'm also concerned. Kind of been there in the past a long time ago. It just rings a bell on my life so maybe that's why the question. I seriously don't know. Love Phillipa


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