Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 806142

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Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran Phillipa

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:31:24

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK, posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 19:19:56

>Mine discourages a Mother image feels I can do it alone with the proper practice and tools. Phillipa

And the real test then is if you are noticing improvements with the therapy you are doing. Can you say you are doing it and improving?

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 21:38:50

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran Dinah, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:10:43

Also, I'm sorry that my interpretation of your comment was incorrect. I'm glad I asked.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships MissK

Posted by muffled on January 13, 2008, at 21:42:17

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran Dinah, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:10:43

I think why you can't understand, is cuz you not been there.
I am happy for you.
I think for me there was stuff, due to my personality and upbringing and life situations, that I never learned. That most DO learn, but I never got. Basic simple stuff. Stuff people take for granted. I just don't understand. Its hard to learn stuff you should have learned as a young child, as an adult.
That desparate child in me , desprately wants to trust T, to have a safe person she can finally tell stuff to. A person who won't hurt her or reject her. Even though she knows she is disgusting.
So I am guessing you will never be able to fully understand how hard it is for some of us.
Its a long path of learning.
Of healing.
Best wishes.
M

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* muffled

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:50:39

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK, posted by muffled on January 13, 2008, at 17:31:35

Yes, it has stirred up, what I think, a very good discussion. I know all the points of view have been insightful for myself.

>I 'tested' my T ALOT B4 I came to trust. I never leaned on noone B4. So to do this was hard.
So this explains some why relationship is SO intense.

This almost sounds like setting up an adversarial relationship, kind of like asking for relationship problems with the T. I respect though that that is what you needed to do for yourself in order to achieve the trust you have developed.

>My T says she is setting an example of a relationship that it is safe to trust.

This is where I differ from yourself and perhaps others. Sure, I needed a little time to get comfortable with my T and sense that I could trust her to be open with my problems, but I really did approach her as going to see a professional and just letting it spill. It didn't take too long to recognize she was competent and caring and so it didn't take too long for me to do/say what needed to be done/said. Again though, I respect that others need to work out some other stuff too before they ever get to the point of spilling.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran seldomseen

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:59:55

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK, posted by seldomseen on January 13, 2008, at 20:02:40

Thanks for your message. I am glad some here have expressed having similar feelings and ideas that I have, even if they may have changed. Who knows, my ideas might change to in some respects.

>But now, looking back on it, I'm glad I had the guts to develop the attachment.

I like to think I have formed the right amount of attachment to achieve what I want to achieve, which is eventually no attachment in the sense of needing to see a T on a regular basis.

>I'm terminating right now and it's sad, but entirely okay I think because, like you said, this relationship was bound to end.

Wow. Just having attended therapy for near a year and half, I can imagine even if you know it is bound to end, it is not something to let go of easily because it provides a certain something even when you are feeling reasonably okay about things. I think I am maybe six months to a year off before considering termination. I hope I will feel like you seem to, entirely okay with that.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:09:20

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships MissK, posted by muffled on January 13, 2008, at 21:42:17

> That desparate child in me , desprately wants to trust T

Mine desperately wants a mother and love.

>So I am guessing you will never be able to fully understand how hard it is for some of us.

Don't be so sure. There are alot of things I don't talk about here. I just don't think a relationship with one's T should be one of those hard things, not for very long or regularly at least.

>Its a long path of learning.
Of healing.
Best wishes.

Yes. Thanks. My best wishes to you too.

 

Re: Great post! seldomseen

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:24:04

In reply to Great post! twinleaf, posted by seldomseen on January 13, 2008, at 14:47:40

>I went through some terrible "transference" with my T...

I know this was directed at twinleaf. I thought though just to share my experience with transference.

As noted, in my case it was a maternal transference. It was short lived once I caught it. It came to me in a visualisation. At one point I visualised a tree and a bird kind of hovering and tweeting away at the tree. I told my T this and realized it represented the mother I was separated from when very young, kind of a safe image of me talking to my mother, or more like the wounded, younger part of myself having someone. It kind of hurt to make the realization. It also represented though (at this juncture) some healing of the issue. Anyway, soon after I left my T session, I also realized that the tree represented my T and the bird tweeting away, me, that younger part, talk, talk, talking away with the T.

So since then, when I use that image it is now me as my adult self that kind of leans against the tree while the bird (younger part) tweets away at me and the tree. I use it less and less, but it is a comforting image sometimes when I need.

I can say that I do not completely understand the very strong and confusing transference some have expressed here. For me, it was short lived once I recognized it. Maybe that contributes to the difficult relationships I read about.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran annierose

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:38:24

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran twinleaf, posted by annierose on January 13, 2008, at 13:21:08

>I felt defensive in reading her post and could not respond.

When I get defensive reading a post, I examine inside myself why that is so. More often than not, it is because of a personal issue I have going on in myself. I'm often not able to respond either but I do appreciate the chance to examine what my issue is.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 22:58:12

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran annierose, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:38:24

Sometimes it isn't that complicated.

We post things here because we feel safely understood here.

Then when someone comments on a topic we just posted about, like for example my post in creating a relationship with my therapist or forever therapy, it can make us feel like maybe we shouldn't have posted it. Or even thought it.

And even though we know that not all people think our take on therapy is correct, and even though we know that our respect for whatever type of therapy might be helpful to any given person isn't necessarily shared, we feel a bit exposed. Like our dresses blew up to show our undies.

And even if we have confidence in our paths and our choices, we can, for a moment, get a momentary urge to yank our skirts down. And to defend our paths and our choices.

And if we're struggling with our choices, we might feel like yanking our skirts down and crawling in a hole and never posting anything so intimate and personal again on a public place.

Of course, by we I mean me. I can't really speak for anyone else.

So I'm working on accepting the paradox that appreciating and respecting the paths of others means appreciating and respecting the fact that they don't need to appreciate or respect mine. And that I don't need to convince them of that.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK

Posted by sunnydays on January 13, 2008, at 23:05:58

In reply to Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant*, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 12:12:31

I cannot write much because I am on 'break' right now and am having a hard time being away from my T for three weeks. But I am doing it and I don't sit here all day and pine for him, so I think I am doing pretty well. I have had some fun times in real life.

For me I tend to write here about the things in the T relationship that most confuse and upset me. And I don't think that any relationship can be free of slights and misunderstandings as you asserted. Even with the best boundaries and communication skills in the world, sometimes you'll be impatient with someone you love, or in a hurry, or just plain don't understand what they meant when you are certain you do. It's just something that happens.

I am, I guess, one of the people you think is unnecessarily dependent on my therapist. My T disagrees. I struggle with it. I have transference, I 'catch' myself in it all the time. It doesn't make the feelings go away. My T says this is normal. We just keep working through it. There are other unresolved issues than just knowing why I have those thoughts that need to be resolved for me, like believing myself that the abuse I experienced was 'bad enough' to be considered abuse before some of the transference will go away. And most Ts think some idealization is actually good for the relationship because it means you trust the T. Have you ever read "In Session: The Bond Between Women and their Therapists" by Deborah Lott? It's a good explanation of these sorts of feelings and how normal they are.

My T would never ever let me move in with him. He has told me many times it is ok to want whatever I want. He has strong enough boundaries to be perfectly comfortable saying no. He told me I could want to set up a futon in his back bedroom and it would be fine. He and I both know they are just fantasies. They are things I would have wanted when I was little - a safe, loving parent - and I'm having those fantasies now. It's not like I can turn off the thoughts I have. And rationally I can say that I don't really want any of those things, I want to be independent and an adult. But right now I need to have these thoughts and feelings that were ignored and not allowed when I was a little girl to move past that stage and 'grow up' so to speak.

I hope that explains what I think. As I said, it's a very difficult subject for me and I am very sensitive to even the slightest hint that there is something wrong with my T relationship. But my T is the most ethical person. It's up to them to keep the boundaries, not us. It's up to us to test them if need be to resolve our 'issues'.

sunnydays

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 23:27:04

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 22:58:12

Of course, it can't make me feel that way. But sometimes I do feel that way anyway. My path to enlightenment is still a work in progress.

Now I'll go resist the urge to yank my skirts down.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK

Posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 23:41:06

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran Phillipa, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:31:24

Too soon to tell I get bursts of courage and then it's gone so wierd. Love Phillipa

 

Thank You Twinleaf twinleaf

Posted by JoniS on January 14, 2008, at 8:46:26

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran MissK, posted by twinleaf on January 13, 2008, at 13:04:16

Twinleaf,

Just wanted to say thanks for your post above. It was really helpful to me. I always find your posts helpful and this one was especially meaningful to me.

Joni

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* sunnydays

Posted by MissK on January 14, 2008, at 11:33:25

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK, posted by sunnydays on January 13, 2008, at 23:05:58

My post was not about dependency. I know and understand that just about everyone that enters therapy will be dependent on it, at least for a time. Some longer than others, and some possibly even for life. I am still depdendent on it in that I do not yet feel ready to terminate it.

>And I don't think that any relationship can be free of slights and misunderstandings as you asserted.

Of the kind that don't create or instill resentments, yes, a relationship can be had without those.

>I hope that explains what I think.

Your post explains very well what you are dealing with in therapy.

>Have you ever read "In Session: The Bond Between Women and their Therapists" by Deborah Lott?

Thank you, for the book suggestion. And I wish you all the best in your continued therapy.


 

Re: Great post! MissK

Posted by seldomseen on January 14, 2008, at 11:53:23

In reply to Re: Great post! seldomseen, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:24:04

It may be something that you never understand and that's okay. But it happens and it is a part of the therapeutic process for a bunch of us.

For me stopping my feelings would have been a very bad move on my part. I spent a good chunk of my life keeping everything in check and never really felt much of anything for anybody.

As it turns out, my therapist was the ideal person to put all of my crap on. He was there, he was consistent. Most importantly though, because he didn't bring any of his own baggage to the relationship, I could deal with my own. I could acknowledge how I felt, develop strategies to deal with the hurt that were me exclusive, act out, miss him, be needy - you know all that stuff that can really push other people away.

It was like practising in front of a mirror before a speech. Looking back on it, it was kind of cool.

Anyway, I'm really glad you are happy with the way your therapy is going.

Seldom.

 

I do apologize.

Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2008, at 13:05:27

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 23:27:04

I may feel defensive, but I should have Annierose's wisdom not to post that way.

It's not the most productive thing to do.

 

Re: Great post! seldomseen

Posted by MissK on January 14, 2008, at 17:36:06

In reply to Re: Great post! MissK, posted by seldomseen on January 14, 2008, at 11:53:23

Thank you, for that explanation Seldom. It adds to my understanding.

Had a T session today and I barely said anything. That's not happened before. It is entering a new phase. I am asking myself what do you say in therapy when it feels like you are doing okay. I've cut back to every two weeks. My T gave me some suggestions on what we might be able to talk about and how to proceed. I need to think on it and figure out what I need from therapy from here on in.

 

Re: Great post! MissK

Posted by seldomseen on January 14, 2008, at 17:45:31

In reply to Re: Great post! seldomseen, posted by MissK on January 14, 2008, at 17:36:06

Well, there have been times in therapy when I didn't have much to say because there wasn't that much to say.
In fact, there have been times when my therapy was just downright boring and I was like "why am I paying for this?"

But, on the other hand, there have been other times when I did have something to say but wasn't saying it. I was just simply pretending it wasn't there.

Seldom.

 

I'm busted! MissK

Posted by antigua3 on January 14, 2008, at 18:29:27

In reply to Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant*, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 12:12:31

> I admit, I don't get it. I don't get the agonizing over T relationships that I sometimes read about here.
>
It's OK that you don't understand it; if you've never experienced it, it is almost impossible to understand. I've been in therapy so long, I don't really remember if I ever felt this way about my T, but I do know in the present day, she represents the perfect mother to me. Not that she's a perfect mother by any means, but she has shown me what a good mother should be like and she has stood up for me in times when I needed a good mother.

> I would be curious: has anyone here ever had dinner and met the family of their Ts at their house, or vice versa has anyone's T been to your house for dinner and met your family?
>
No, but I wouldn't be surprised if that happened after I finished therapy. I have met her family and she certainly knows and has met everyone in mine. I would invite her to dinner now, and I know she would accept.

> Sure, we share very intimate things with the T, but at the end of session you LEAVE and they LEAVE with the exchange of money for the service provided and each attend to their respective lives outside of that office.
>
I used to believe this was true, and would throw it in her face at times, but for me, I had to get past the feelings that I was a paycheck, and once I did, marvelous things began to happen.


> I kind of see it as having a favourite school teacher; for the time you were with them they enriched your life and helped - they will always be special for what they did but you don't stay stuck in that grade, you moved on with the memory and specialness of what was learned and shared.
>
Have you ever gone back to visit a favorite teacher? I have and have become friends with them as well--dinner and all.

> I know some will need or may want lifelong therapy, but even then I think it is important to make distinction of what that person is in your life.

I am very clear about the distinction of the "real" role my T plays in my life. She is in my life as much as I need her, and I know I add value to her life.

>I hear alooot of heartache here of T relationships, almost like relationships with a mother, father, sibling, lover, etc. And I just don't get how or why someone would allow a T relationship to get to that point or why a T would let it either. What purpose can that serve.
>
Well, what I've learned from my T is that yes, in the beginning--and possibly for many years or past termination for some--the T does play a stand-in role for others in our life. Our job is to have the relationship grow past that role because they can't "fix" what went wrong in our early lives, but they can model behavior and teach us to stand on our own, having gone through the experience of not getting what we needed to getting a version of it, and then learning to assimilate that into our new lives, and move on. It's never a replacement, because in going through the ugly parts of transference (which I'm working on with a pdoc), we go through the transference and then are hopefully able to resolve the original trauma. Resolving the initial trauma is vital and transference is a tool for helping some of us get there.

> It really does bother me to see people in so much turmoil in what should be a healthy exchange - it doesn't sound all that healthy to me sometimes when I read of the heartache that goes on.
>
It should end up healthy in the long run, but it's a long, hard, painful and emotional journey. The key is opening oneself up to the pain and trusting our Ts enough to hold our hand through the journey to the other side.

It took me many, many years to open up, to trust, and it wasn't until then that my real journey began, and I'm so ever grateful to my T for her willingness to hold my hand when I asked, to let me say cruel things when I needed to and to pull things out of me that needed to be said.

I love my T and she loves me. I know because she has told me a million times. There's nothing wrong with that for us because we have a relationship that works for us. And I believe her, and in her, and always will. She's certainly not perfect, but neither am I.

just my thoughts on what you posted.
antigua

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK

Posted by Maria01 on January 14, 2008, at 19:10:56

In reply to Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant*, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 12:12:31

* stands and applauds*

Thank you. Truer words have not been spoken. One of the reasons why I have pretty much left this board is due to so much of the agonizing I see over the t/client relationship.

True, some of what we experience in life does carry over to the T/client relationship, but seriously: No, you cannot a) sleep with your T b) cultivate a personal relationship with them c) be their son/daughter..the list goes on.

Thank you, MissK for the badly-needed reality check for this board.

 

uhoh..we been doing SO good guys-keep it cool here (nm)

Posted by muffled on January 14, 2008, at 19:36:21

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK, posted by Maria01 on January 14, 2008, at 19:10:56

 

OK, I just gotta say....* Maria01

Posted by muffled on January 14, 2008, at 19:42:41

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK, posted by Maria01 on January 14, 2008, at 19:10:56

Maria.....did you READ *ALL* this thread????? Every post?
Cuz I think it was well explained....:-(
Some of us need to do what we need to do. You think we LIKE to suffer pain? Its a LEARNING process. Maybe you were lucky and had an enviroment where you learned the basics, but many of us don't know.
Its hard, it hurts.
But in the end we grow and learn.
Have you noted how INCREDIBLY compassionate babblers are on this board for the most part? How incredibly ACCEPTING they are of others....?
Comes with the territory methinks.
We gotta be humble.
We have *it* inside, and we TRYING to deal with it, but its scarey and hard.
I could say more, but truly, its BEEN said, and if you guys cannot understand now, then you never will, and it is my beleif that this thread should end, cuz there's no understanding to be had.
Sadly,
M

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* Maria01

Posted by sunnydays on January 14, 2008, at 20:01:10

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* MissK, posted by Maria01 on January 14, 2008, at 19:10:56

No, I can't be my T's daughter, but I agonize over it and wish for it nonetheless. I am not delusional, and I don't think anyone else here is. I know what the reality I face is. I also know that I agonize over a lot of things that can't happen in reality. I'm sorry if you think that means I need some sort of intervention or reality check. I can't help my thoughts or feelings.

sunnydays

 

Re: OK, I just gotta say....* muffled

Posted by Maria01 on January 14, 2008, at 20:02:15

In reply to OK, I just gotta say....* Maria01, posted by muffled on January 14, 2008, at 19:42:41

Yes, I did read the entire thread. There is nothing wrong with me adding my two cents as well. There is also nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion here are there, either. People are not always going to be in complete agreement with one another; it's a part of life both online and in real life.

I just get so tired of seeing posts where people torture themselves. If they want to get their therapists a gift, get them a gift. If they want/need to discuss something with them, then discuss it. Life is hard enough without endless self-torture. Just think of all that can be accomplished in therapy if the effort/energy/whatever spent torturing oneself over what to say/do in therapy were instead directed toward the therapy itself.

People will ultimately do/say whatever they want in the end, but that's just my two cents.

 

Re: OK, I just gotta say....* muffled

Posted by TherapyGirl on January 14, 2008, at 20:17:42

In reply to OK, I just gotta say....* Maria01, posted by muffled on January 14, 2008, at 19:42:41

Amen to you, Muffly. You said it well AND you said it nicely. I'm proud to be your friend.


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