Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 806142

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Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » happyflower

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 18:55:39

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran, posted by happyflower on January 13, 2008, at 13:05:53

>I think we don't PLAN on such a strong attachment to our T's, but sometimes when there is something in our life that is missing or is missing from our past, it is hard to separate those feeling because we have never felt them before until therapy.

Yes, the care and attention we get from our T's can be addictive and can lead to feeling like we can't live without it. Uhmm, but this attachment comes with a price tag. I have to make the distinction of needing the 'therapy' for my issues and needing the 'attachment' to the T. What she provides me is wonderful and I wouldn't mind a daily dose of that undivided attention and listening and psychological help and soothing. But I have to look for those things elsewhere too. She is there to help with certain things, she can't be, or more I don't want her to be my 'paid' best friend.

>...and you should feel lucky you don't feel this with your T or I should say NEED is it will make termination a lot easier.

As mentioned above, it would be easy to fall into a trap of needing that care and attention. It really does feel good. I guess, yes, because I view the relationship as one day terminating I have kept a certain distance with the attachment.

>although I felt just like you do at the beginning of my therapy and well things developed from there.

Yes, I can see the temptation of wanting to keep on seeing a T even if your issues get resolved. I don't have anything against continuing to see a T for years if one wants to, if it adds to their life and they can afford it. What I don't get is continuing to see a T in a relationship sense, like continuing to visit your mother, father or lover or what have you and having 'relationship' issues like a bickering couple. Then it seems to me some boundaries have been crossed.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 19:03:16

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » happyflower, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 18:55:39

> What she provides me is wonderful and I wouldn't mind a daily dose of that undivided attention and listening and psychological help and soothing.

Do you think that's what we're looking for? Daily stroking? Self indulgence?

> But I have to look for those things elsewhere too. She is there to help with certain things, she can't be, or more I don't want her to be my 'paid' best friend.

I don't want mine to be my best friend at all. Paid or not. I get my best friend needs met elsewhere.

I think at this point, I'll just say that I understand that you don't understand. My therapist says that to me all the time. With a little smile that drives me nuts. So I won't smile.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » Daisym

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 19:14:24

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant*, posted by Daisym on January 13, 2008, at 14:54:20

Nothing too much to comment on your post Daisym, that I haven't said elsewhere.

>If we think about healthy, happy children - they usually come from families or communities where they know they are cared about, thought about and enjoyed. They are secure and they know they belong. Pretty powerful stuff.


Just wanted to say that is both a beautiful and powerful statement/message. Again, there are limits to the client/therapist relationship that prevent the full expression of what you write.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 19:19:56

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » twinleaf, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 17:56:57

Mine discourages a Mother image feels I can do it alone with the proper practice and tools. Phillipa

 

Re: Thank you » Dinah

Posted by annierose on January 13, 2008, at 19:49:23

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 19:03:16

I agree with your post completely.

>>>I think at this point, I'll just say that I understand that you don't understand.

You can't compare apples to oranges. One isn't necessarily better than another. They both are fruits each with different tastes and textures with various health benefits. Or one can prefer bananas.

My therapist certainly isn't my paid friend. This is a relationship like no other.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships » twinleaf

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 19:52:44

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships » MissK, posted by twinleaf on January 13, 2008, at 18:49:58

>It sounds as though we are basically in agreement about the importance of the therapeutic relationship, and the potential it has for really transforming how we live and experience our lives.

Yes, on this we do agree. And the rest of what you have to say is hits home for me too.

>frequently go through times of feeling that our therapists do not meet our needs as much as we would like.

And I would say, in my view, that this gets exacerbated and probably needlessly lengthens and complicates therapy if we approach it in terms of having a relationship with the therapist. We do have a relationship with the T, but it is a limited one, confined as it were - so again, why the angst and turmoil over the relationship with that particular T. Something is occurring out of that confinement that probably shouldn't be is all I can figure.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » MissK

Posted by Daisym on January 13, 2008, at 19:57:32

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » Daisym, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 19:14:24

I agree with you about the limits. No one person can be all thing to another person. I think that is why families -- mom, dad, grandparents, siblings, godparents -- are so important. Every relationship is different and fills a different need.

Perhaps the element that you are trying so hard to understand is the learning. And then the globalization of that learning. If you didn't get what you needed/longed for as a child and you come into therapy looking for it - you might have to learn to mourn and let go. If you've learned to solely rely on yourself, you might need to learn to attach. Therapy provides a place to see what you need to learn, based on what kind of relationship you have or want with your therapist. I think that is among the reasons things get painful. Some people need to learn boundaries. Some people need to learn to trust.

And btw, just because people might write here about what they wish for, doesn't mean they ever expect to get it. I think dreaming of a fantasy while accepting the reality is a very human thing to do. I mean, isn't that why we buy lottery tickets?

The reason

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » star008

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 20:01:54

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » MissK, posted by star008 on January 13, 2008, at 15:56:25

> I wish I didn't cuz someday it will hurt alot but i think after a long time of being with someone it will hurt regardless of what you try to do..

Yes, star. I agree. I am sure when it comes time to terminate with my T there will be some sadness that may hurt for a time. I will probably even miss our sessions and her personally to a degree. But going back to my school teacher image, the point for me really is to move on at some point. I think that is my T's objective in treating me too or at leasts understands that is my objective.

>I have read some of the agonizing posts and it does seem IMHO to be unrealistic sometimes but that is just how people feel and it happens in therapy

It is just how some people feel, I know that. I just wish and don't completely understand how a relationship that is supposed to make them feel better regularly makes them feel bad.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by seldomseen on January 13, 2008, at 20:02:40

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » happyflower, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 18:55:39

>>>>What she provides me is wonderful and I wouldn't mind a daily dose of that undivided attention and listening and psychological help and soothing. But I have to look for those things elsewhere too. She is there to help with certain things, she can't be, or more I don't want her to be my 'paid' best friend.<<<<

>>>>It really does feel good. I guess, yes, because I view the relationship as one day terminating I have kept a certain distance with the attachment.<<<<

You know it's so odd, but when I first started therapy, I found myself saying the exact - I mean almost verbatim - things that you said in this post.

But now, looking back on it, I'm glad I had the guts to develop the attachment. But I really don't know I managed to do it - allowing myself to admit that I needed someone after so many years of not needing anyone. Allowing myself to miss some one and be hurt by someone - to this day, I don't know what came over me that allowed that to happen.

Oh, it was rough don't get me wrong. I used to call it face-planting in the therapeutic boundary. It hurt. It took a lot of work on both our parts to bring me through to resolution.

But, for me at least, I learned that I could absorb hurt and frustration and disappointment and not be devastated by it or end the relationship.

I used to think that being strong meant never allowing myself to get hurt, now I know that for me, it's just the opposite - it's being willing to accept the hurt and be okay with it.


I'm terminating right now and it's sad, but entirely okay I think because, like you said, this relationship was bound to end.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships » Dinah

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 20:38:54

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 16:30:26

>I think I am living proof. And the weird thing was that the changes started coming all at once, rather than a bit at a time. I see that with kids too. It's not a linear progression. Something just comes together, some neuronal connection is made or something, and poof.

Hi Dinah,

I appreciate your posts and will make some short comments to some of your other posts. I just wanted to say the above really stood out for me. I am actually going through this. It seems in the last two weeks or so I've been having the same thing happen to me in terms of recovery. It seems like 'poof' something has happened and I've noticed remarkable improvements in my recovery. I can't explain it either and tried to tell my T at my last session last week but couldn't really explain it. After feeling so debilitated for so long it is amazing how things seem to be healing up. You say it wonderfully here.

> I'm so happy over something that wouldn't have been that exciting to most people. I'm sure "real" people hear that sort of thing all the time. I just never thought of myself as real, you know? For nearly all my life, I've seen myself as some sort of alien with my nose pressed up to the window of the rest of the human race.

Well, whatever it is I am glad to read you are so happy with it, and I can relate to the excitement of wanting to share something with your T. And I am equally glad you don't feel anymore as an alien with your nose pressed up to the window.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 20:59:09

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 18:37:50

>First of all, I doubt any relationship can exist without rejections, slights, misunderstandings, being unavailable, etc. Therapy isn't teaching us to be in a relationship without those.

Actually, mine has taught me that with defined boundaries, explicit or implied, both in mind and in practice that a relationship can be had without those.

>Therapy helps us accept and value what is, and mourn what isn't.

I like what you say here. It rings true for myself too.

>It sounds like you're a fast learner! And that you're able to take in good things from others.

I do try. Thanks.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » Dinah

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:10:43

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 19:03:16

>Do you think that's what we're looking for? Daily stroking? Self indulgence?

I don't presume to know what everyone is looking for. I said I wouldn't mind receiving what I do from T sessions on a daily basis. I said undivided attention, listening and psychological help and soothing. Stroking and self indulgence is your interpretation of what I said. To me it means the help I get from sessions.

>I think at this point, I'll just say that I understand that you don't understand. My therapist says that to me all the time. With a little smile that drives me nuts. So I won't smile.

Yes, it may be I do not understand certain therapist/client dynamics. I wouldn't appreciate my T telling me I don't understand something with a clever smile. I would ask her to tell me in itty bitty baby words to help me understand if that was the case. ;>

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 21:17:08

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » Dinah, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:10:43

It isn't a clever smile at all. It's an understanding one.

Chacun son goût.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » Phillipa

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:31:24

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK, posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 19:19:56

>Mine discourages a Mother image feels I can do it alone with the proper practice and tools. Phillipa

And the real test then is if you are noticing improvements with the therapy you are doing. Can you say you are doing it and improving?

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 21:38:50

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » Dinah, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:10:43

Also, I'm sorry that my interpretation of your comment was incorrect. I'm glad I asked.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships » MissK

Posted by muffled on January 13, 2008, at 21:42:17

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » Dinah, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:10:43

I think why you can't understand, is cuz you not been there.
I am happy for you.
I think for me there was stuff, due to my personality and upbringing and life situations, that I never learned. That most DO learn, but I never got. Basic simple stuff. Stuff people take for granted. I just don't understand. Its hard to learn stuff you should have learned as a young child, as an adult.
That desparate child in me , desprately wants to trust T, to have a safe person she can finally tell stuff to. A person who won't hurt her or reject her. Even though she knows she is disgusting.
So I am guessing you will never be able to fully understand how hard it is for some of us.
Its a long path of learning.
Of healing.
Best wishes.
M

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » muffled

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:50:39

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » MissK, posted by muffled on January 13, 2008, at 17:31:35

Yes, it has stirred up, what I think, a very good discussion. I know all the points of view have been insightful for myself.

>I 'tested' my T ALOT B4 I came to trust. I never leaned on noone B4. So to do this was hard.
So this explains some why relationship is SO intense.

This almost sounds like setting up an adversarial relationship, kind of like asking for relationship problems with the T. I respect though that that is what you needed to do for yourself in order to achieve the trust you have developed.

>My T says she is setting an example of a relationship that it is safe to trust.

This is where I differ from yourself and perhaps others. Sure, I needed a little time to get comfortable with my T and sense that I could trust her to be open with my problems, but I really did approach her as going to see a professional and just letting it spill. It didn't take too long to recognize she was competent and caring and so it didn't take too long for me to do/say what needed to be done/said. Again though, I respect that others need to work out some other stuff too before they ever get to the point of spilling.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » seldomseen

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:59:55

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK, posted by seldomseen on January 13, 2008, at 20:02:40

Thanks for your message. I am glad some here have expressed having similar feelings and ideas that I have, even if they may have changed. Who knows, my ideas might change to in some respects.

>But now, looking back on it, I'm glad I had the guts to develop the attachment.

I like to think I have formed the right amount of attachment to achieve what I want to achieve, which is eventually no attachment in the sense of needing to see a T on a regular basis.

>I'm terminating right now and it's sad, but entirely okay I think because, like you said, this relationship was bound to end.

Wow. Just having attended therapy for near a year and half, I can imagine even if you know it is bound to end, it is not something to let go of easily because it provides a certain something even when you are feeling reasonably okay about things. I think I am maybe six months to a year off before considering termination. I hope I will feel like you seem to, entirely okay with that.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:09:20

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships » MissK, posted by muffled on January 13, 2008, at 21:42:17

> That desparate child in me , desprately wants to trust T

Mine desperately wants a mother and love.

>So I am guessing you will never be able to fully understand how hard it is for some of us.

Don't be so sure. There are alot of things I don't talk about here. I just don't think a relationship with one's T should be one of those hard things, not for very long or regularly at least.

>Its a long path of learning.
Of healing.
Best wishes.

Yes. Thanks. My best wishes to you too.

 

Re: Great post! » seldomseen

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:24:04

In reply to Great post! » twinleaf, posted by seldomseen on January 13, 2008, at 14:47:40

>I went through some terrible "transference" with my T...

I know this was directed at twinleaf. I thought though just to share my experience with transference.

As noted, in my case it was a maternal transference. It was short lived once I caught it. It came to me in a visualisation. At one point I visualised a tree and a bird kind of hovering and tweeting away at the tree. I told my T this and realized it represented the mother I was separated from when very young, kind of a safe image of me talking to my mother, or more like the wounded, younger part of myself having someone. It kind of hurt to make the realization. It also represented though (at this juncture) some healing of the issue. Anyway, soon after I left my T session, I also realized that the tree represented my T and the bird tweeting away, me, that younger part, talk, talk, talking away with the T.

So since then, when I use that image it is now me as my adult self that kind of leans against the tree while the bird (younger part) tweets away at me and the tree. I use it less and less, but it is a comforting image sometimes when I need.

I can say that I do not completely understand the very strong and confusing transference some have expressed here. For me, it was short lived once I recognized it. Maybe that contributes to the difficult relationships I read about.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » annierose

Posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:38:24

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » twinleaf, posted by annierose on January 13, 2008, at 13:21:08

>I felt defensive in reading her post and could not respond.

When I get defensive reading a post, I examine inside myself why that is so. More often than not, it is because of a personal issue I have going on in myself. I'm often not able to respond either but I do appreciate the chance to examine what my issue is.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 22:58:12

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » annierose, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 22:38:24

Sometimes it isn't that complicated.

We post things here because we feel safely understood here.

Then when someone comments on a topic we just posted about, like for example my post in creating a relationship with my therapist or forever therapy, it can make us feel like maybe we shouldn't have posted it. Or even thought it.

And even though we know that not all people think our take on therapy is correct, and even though we know that our respect for whatever type of therapy might be helpful to any given person isn't necessarily shared, we feel a bit exposed. Like our dresses blew up to show our undies.

And even if we have confidence in our paths and our choices, we can, for a moment, get a momentary urge to yank our skirts down. And to defend our paths and our choices.

And if we're struggling with our choices, we might feel like yanking our skirts down and crawling in a hole and never posting anything so intimate and personal again on a public place.

Of course, by we I mean me. I can't really speak for anyone else.

So I'm working on accepting the paradox that appreciating and respecting the paths of others means appreciating and respecting the fact that they don't need to appreciate or respect mine. And that I don't need to convince them of that.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant* » MissK

Posted by sunnydays on January 13, 2008, at 23:05:58

In reply to Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + rant*, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 12:12:31

I cannot write much because I am on 'break' right now and am having a hard time being away from my T for three weeks. But I am doing it and I don't sit here all day and pine for him, so I think I am doing pretty well. I have had some fun times in real life.

For me I tend to write here about the things in the T relationship that most confuse and upset me. And I don't think that any relationship can be free of slights and misunderstandings as you asserted. Even with the best boundaries and communication skills in the world, sometimes you'll be impatient with someone you love, or in a hurry, or just plain don't understand what they meant when you are certain you do. It's just something that happens.

I am, I guess, one of the people you think is unnecessarily dependent on my therapist. My T disagrees. I struggle with it. I have transference, I 'catch' myself in it all the time. It doesn't make the feelings go away. My T says this is normal. We just keep working through it. There are other unresolved issues than just knowing why I have those thoughts that need to be resolved for me, like believing myself that the abuse I experienced was 'bad enough' to be considered abuse before some of the transference will go away. And most Ts think some idealization is actually good for the relationship because it means you trust the T. Have you ever read "In Session: The Bond Between Women and their Therapists" by Deborah Lott? It's a good explanation of these sorts of feelings and how normal they are.

My T would never ever let me move in with him. He has told me many times it is ok to want whatever I want. He has strong enough boundaries to be perfectly comfortable saying no. He told me I could want to set up a futon in his back bedroom and it would be fine. He and I both know they are just fantasies. They are things I would have wanted when I was little - a safe, loving parent - and I'm having those fantasies now. It's not like I can turn off the thoughts I have. And rationally I can say that I don't really want any of those things, I want to be independent and an adult. But right now I need to have these thoughts and feelings that were ignored and not allowed when I was a little girl to move past that stage and 'grow up' so to speak.

I hope that explains what I think. As I said, it's a very difficult subject for me and I am very sensitive to even the slightest hint that there is something wrong with my T relationship. But my T is the most ethical person. It's up to them to keep the boundaries, not us. It's up to us to test them if need be to resolve our 'issues'.

sunnydays

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran

Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 23:27:04

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2008, at 22:58:12

Of course, it can't make me feel that way. But sometimes I do feel that way anyway. My path to enlightenment is still a work in progress.

Now I'll go resist the urge to yank my skirts down.

 

Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » MissK

Posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 23:41:06

In reply to Re: Agonizing over T Relationships *trigger + ran » Phillipa, posted by MissK on January 13, 2008, at 21:31:24

Too soon to tell I get bursts of courage and then it's gone so wierd. Love Phillipa


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