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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2007, at 16:08:58
with my pdoc and I didn't want to steal her thread.
after today, I wouldn't ever, ever touch him, in any possible way. I've had it--over a very simple thing. I asked him why he couldn't call me by my first name. He uses Mrs. xXX, and all I can think of is my 83 year-old-mother-in-law. He says he refuses to call clients by their first names. What would this be such a deal breaker for me? Am I nuts? Well, yes, of course I am.
I bolted from the room as he was scheduling another appt and I yelled "No MORE!"I am under an intense amount of pressure right now, and his response was that I seemed to be handling it all very well. Oh, that was a big help (although I can throw it in my husband's face who thinks i'm just moping around and should be extra charged with energy, which is his way of dealing with stress). I told pdoc I thought I was going to snap and he dismissed it, and said it wouldn't happen. Oh yeah? How does he know? Trivialize, trivialize...
A little hot under the collar right now.
I also asked him why he was treating me so differently--kinder, for ex--and he said he had noted no change. All I can do is an all out snort on that one. Also, why doesn't he look at the past, but concentrate on the future, I asked, because that's what he said last week. Because the past can't be changed, he said, and the future is out there to be molded in the healthiest way. But what about getting ove the past, letting the feelings go?
I'm so confused.
antigua
Posted by Sigismund on October 23, 2007, at 16:39:45
In reply to Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2007, at 16:08:58
>He says he refuses to call clients by their first names.
That'd be enough to send me out the door.
Posted by Poet on October 23, 2007, at 17:27:16
In reply to Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2007, at 16:08:58
Hi Antigua,
I would have called him by his first name as I bolted from the room. Dr. Clueless always calls me by the nickname of my first name. Expdoc, asked at the first visit if it was okay if he called me "Poet."
<< Also, why doesn't he look at the past, but concentrate on the future, I asked, because that's what he said last week. Because the past can't be changed, he said, and the future is out there to be molded in the healthiest way. But what about getting ove the past, letting the feelings go?
That confuses me, too, I don't get how you're supposed to mold a healthy future when if you're like me you are carrying enough emotional baggage from the past to break the mold into pieces?
A cyber slap to your pdoc's head is coming his way.
Poet
Posted by rskontos on October 23, 2007, at 17:30:46
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » antigua3, posted by Sigismund on October 23, 2007, at 16:39:45
Antigua3, I finally responded to your thread about this p-doc and the past thing I couldn't get past. The name thing is another big one. It is too formal for the types of personal histories you would be sharing. If my T called me by my surname which is my H I too would think of my mother-in-law and we have a shaky relationship and I would bolt fast. It reminds of hands off don't get too close to me situation on the part of p-doc and how can that build a intimate relationship of sharing a deep personal issue of that which involves highly sensitives issues. Therapy involves highly sensitive issues and it is like he is saying stay back. Plus you say that he seems different yet he denies it. So I would venture to say that the relationship will only go so far. JMHO. I think I would not trust him too much myself. It would make me wonder if he wanted to really treat me or wanted a case history. Sorry I don't want to make you feel bad with that last statement but he is bothering me for you. I hope you call your T and let her know what he is doing to you so she can help you through this too! I am not sure you need him as much as your T who sounds more nururing than him. rk
Posted by RealMe on October 23, 2007, at 22:22:45
In reply to Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2007, at 16:08:58
I am so sorry about your stupid pdoc. My therapist/pdoc who is an analyst calls me by my first name. I would freak if he called me Mrs. xxx. The only time I get annoyed with a doctor calling me Mrs. xxx is when they know I am Dr. xxxx, and refuse to give me the curtosy. I just got a new PCP, and he calls me Dr. xxx. I was surprised, and he said he likes talking to me and tells me his stuff. He is very anti ECT, and so I alreay like him a lot. He was telling me about his messy divorce and how his kids are doing, etc, and we were just chatting like old friends. HUM. He is probably close to my age. I have never had a doctor be this way, and yet I know he is supposed to be good. He was the Chief of Internal Medicine at a good hospital in the area before he moved to my county.
I had a physical on Saturday, and I cannot believe I let him touch my body, but I did. No Gyn exam; I have a female gyn doctor. But still. He was just chatting away, aNd me too, and I litterally forgot what he was doing. Maybe I just dissociated.
I had a psychiatrist once who was as formal as you describe, and I dumped him quick. Also what is this crap about the past is the past, and the future is here to be molded as if you can divide your self up into a past person, a present person, and a future person. HUM. When I say that to my T, the past is the past; it's over aNd so what is the point of getting into it, he laughs at me and my transparency in this regard as of course the past, present, and future are all important, and the past impacts on the present in ways we don't always recognize until we are in therapy. If this is how he lives his life, then I feel sorry for him. He sounds like one uptight dude.
Do you have any idea what you will do now? He doesn't deserve to work with someone as good and caring as you.
RealMe
Posted by arora on October 24, 2007, at 6:08:38
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov » antigua3, posted by RealMe on October 23, 2007, at 22:22:45
He sounds a bit Victorian, if you ask me! How can you build a relationship that requires trust with someone so stuffy?!
I disagree with all this 'the past is past' stuff, too... imagine if someone had an old leg injury that had never healed properly- would they be told "it's only a wound from the past; now just focus on that marathon!"
Of course not- it would be tended and seen to be mended, (and crutches used!) before they were expected to run.You might as well expect to tell a tree to just forget its roots.
arora
Posted by antigua3 on October 24, 2007, at 10:46:07
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov » antigua3, posted by RealMe on October 23, 2007, at 22:22:45
No, I'm not sure what I am going to do. Saw my T today and she was helpful in shaking it all out for me. I do have another pdoc appt scheduled in a month, so I have time to think about it. Maybe I'll do some pdoc shopping!
Thanks for all your responses; I really appreciate it.
antigua
Posted by frida on October 24, 2007, at 11:56:31
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov, posted by antigua3 on October 24, 2007, at 10:46:07
dear antigua
i would feel very hurt if my pdoc refused to call me by my name. That would feel so cold to me. And what he said to you about the past and future..if only it were that easy to just 'leave the past behind'..it affects the present, even if we try hard not to think about it..
it makes me think of a film on Sunday (old one): everything is illuminated..the phrase that comes to me is 'everything is illuminated by the light of the past'. Unfortunately we cannot change what happened.It shapes our life and it's so important to be able to process it. i always try to minimize it all and just leave it "buried" by not talking..but it comes to me in other ways and affects my life and the people around me.
My T always tells me how necessary it is to talk and tell so that the past and memories don't have such a strong influence.
How hard it must be to hear these words from your pdoc.
I don't know if i could see a pdoc who said that to me and who refused to call me by my name.I am sorry, I think you deserve much better than this.
lots of support,
Frida
Posted by RealMe on October 24, 2007, at 23:09:53
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands, posted by arora on October 24, 2007, at 6:08:38
That is a fantastic analogy auroa---"you might as well tell a tree to just forget it's roots." I have to remember that one. Thanks.
RealMe
Posted by arora on October 25, 2007, at 8:13:10
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » arora, posted by RealMe on October 24, 2007, at 23:09:53
I have this vision of all the trees running around loose in the forest, trying to find their roots- crashing into each other. :-0 ! Think of the chaos.
Roots are good- even bad or damaged ones help to hold us up, I think.
T's or pdocs who tell us to ignore them are rather silly, imho...'cos that's where our memories, earliest thoughts and self-images COME from!
arora
Posted by seldomseen on October 25, 2007, at 17:03:21
In reply to Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2007, at 16:08:58
Sounds like your pdoc has some issues of his own that he needs to work on. You may be right, and he just isn't the right fit for you. But he sounds like he challenges you, and that, IMO, is not the worst thing in the world, it just might not be the right time in your recovery for that to happen.
As far as trivializing the stress you are under, it may be that that you are handling it well. I've told my T that I wanted to commit suicide, to which he responded "You won't". I've also told him that I was just about to buckle from all the stress from work etc... and he has said "You won't".
At first I was pretty put off and like "thanks for the sympathy big guy", but in a very real way he was acknowledging my strength. The only time we really were at odds was when he told me to "suck it up". And now I will admit he was right and, in fact, that was exactly what I needed to do (God I hate him so much sometimes - he's always right ;)
As far as not dealing with the past... I'm not sure that is a therapeutically sound approach (unless he is a cognitive practioner). Clearly the past can not be ignored, but IMO he is right in that it doesn't have to rule the day.
Take good care of yourself while you sort this out.
Seldom.
Posted by RealMe on October 25, 2007, at 22:02:03
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » RealMe, posted by arora on October 25, 2007, at 8:13:10
So why would you want to keep seeing this guy? Does he remind you of your father? Is he a challenge? Do you think you can help him change? I would agree that this is not the right time to take on a challenge like him if ever is the right time.
There are good, kind psychiatrists out there. What would be so awful about trying to deal with one of them; or would that be worse, too much of a treat. For me, on one level dealing with an *ssh*l* male is easier than dealing with a man who is good and kind and caring. The jerk is more familiar.
RealMe
Posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 7:24:20
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov » antigua3, posted by seldomseen on October 25, 2007, at 17:03:21
yes, I'm certain he has issues of his own, and I'm a very big challenge for him. I don't know what bothered me most the other night--whether it was because he was fidgeting so much with all of us his electronic gadgets (even going on the Internet) trying to find out if there was a drug interaction going on (I told him he could do that at another time and just let me know) so he wouldn't have to concentrate on me and what I was trying to tell him, or that he finally admitted he doesn't call patients by their first names (I've been asking him to call me by my first name for more than a year I think and he has just ignored it), or the most important fact of all, that he didn't step up and say he would be there if I needed him AS MY PSYCHIATRIST, through a potential crisis. Not as a warm, caring individual, but as my psychiatrist, which I pay a hefty sum for.
My T agrees. He is generally a CBT guy, we discussed it, but he agreed that my therapy required more of a psychoanalytical approach and he was more than willing to provide it. Sometimes he does, and he's great, but then he backs off. Dependency is strictly forbidden, although he knows it's all part of the process.
My T says that she can tell by what I tell her that he lets his issues--he would call it his orientation--get in the way. We tease about training him, because I think he could be a really good psychiatrist one day. He already is one, when it comes to research. I told him that I thought he would be great when he learned a better bedside manner. His response was "Ouch."
So, in one way he totally gets it.Now some of you may ask why should I be the one training him? It's a great question, and I know it's centered on wanting the authority figure (my father) to recognize/accept responsibility for how he treats me. It is, in fact, part of my own therapy. I know the time may come when I may have to accept that won't happen, and that it hurts more than it helps, but I'm not there yet. My T still sees the use in him as well. So selfishly, I'm still going, but I'm strong enough now (I tell him when I think he's full of it) to throw away what I don't agree with. That said, it still hurts sometimes, but I still see it as part of the process of me dealing with an authoritative male.
I am the touchy, feely type when it comes to my family and friends, but the hard edge he provides is good for me, at least for now. I do not want sympathy, I go for the honesty, but as I said, if I think he's full of it, I let him know. Arguing and standing up for myself is new for me. I don't want him to feel sorry for me in any possible way. That could be another issue for me...
I have a backup who is really a great guy. I sent my son to see him a couple of times and it worked out very well. We keep in touch--because the greatest joke of all is that he is my pdoc's backup when he's away!--and I invariably need a refill, etc. when he's gone and have to contact the back up.(I didn't realize there was a connection between them--my pdoc was referred by my old pdoc when he retired, and I got the name of the other one from my T! Small world.)
I know there are others out there, and maybe someone better for me to work with, but right now we are working on the heart of the matter--father as authority figure. I'm not looking to break him, but it does help me understand my father much better.
antigua
Posted by twinleaf on October 26, 2007, at 9:12:10
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov » seldomseen, posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 7:24:20
I think your goal of working out issues with your father is very important; it sounds like you have made a lot of progress in many other ways- with this one standing out as still unresolved.
But is this pdoc TRAINED to help you with this? You and he are going to be facing very intense transference-counter-transference feelings, including love, hate, rage and dependency..It sounds like you are both already starting to. In order to help you, he has to understand how intense they will be, and have enough experience and training to respond with caring and understanding, but not allow himself to respond with withdrawal, anger, etc. If he does that, he will be compounding the original trauma. It looks like he is already out of his depth- fiddling with his computer, for example. DBT isn't enough traing for what you need..Aren't there some psychoanalytically-trained male therapists in your area?
Posted by Dinah on October 26, 2007, at 9:46:01
In reply to Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands abov, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2007, at 16:08:58
I remember you said a while back that you found his approach helpful in some ways. That his words may have been harsher than you were used to, but they shocked you into a new way of thinking. That might not terribly helpful for me, but I know that many people do find that helpful.
It worries me a bit more when you talk about training him to be different than he is now. Or in terms of what you wanted from your father. I think Twinleaf is right there. That usually only works if a therapist is able to *change* the results of the experience. If he truly is like your father, might it just be traumatizing again?
Your therapist apparently approves, and she's closer to the situation than I am. So that makes me a bit less worried.
But, IMO, people never fundamentally change from outside influence. If they change it's for some reason of their own. And it seems like a lot of our suffering comes from wanting something different from someone than they are able to provide, and banging our heads over and over trying to get it. I think a comedian once said that people aren't fixer uppers. They come as is.
I know I talk a lot about training my therapist. And I suppose I have in some ways. But not in bone deep fundamental ways. If he wasn't who he is, he wouldn't have been open to trying to understand me better, or to trying to understand his own issues better in how they apply to our relationship. If it wasn't in him to be open to new ways of experiencing things, all my efforts to change him would have come to naught.
And I don't think in that respect I was trying to work through other problematic relationships. I stayed with him partly because he was totally unlike my parents in the ways that it was important he be nothing like them. He's phlegmatic where they were volcanic. He doesn't rely on me to settle his moods. But he does allow me to recreate some of the better parts of my experience with my father particularly. I'm not saying he does it by design. But his temperament is such that it comes naturally to the relationship.
If you get something helpful from your pdoc's more ummmm.... "direct" style, that's great. It is possible that resistance helps some people to look at things differently and enables change. (For me, it's lack of resistance that does that. I push if pushed, and it's only if there is nothing to push back that I stumble forward, pick myself up, and sheepishly consider change. My therapist's lack of resistance coupled with his strong core is perfect for me.)
But please be careful if your goal is something more. I trust you, particularly since your therapist is aware of what's going on, to know what's best for you.
Posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 11:52:12
In reply to red flags...., posted by twinleaf on October 26, 2007, at 9:12:10
Thank you.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 12:00:38
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » arora, posted by RealMe on October 25, 2007, at 22:02:03
The jerks are so much challenging, and I need to be challenged. If I decide to give up with him, it will be a decision of my own power and I can't explain why that's important, but it is. I am the one who has to decide on the level of acceptance. I've discussed this with him, as in is this actually more abuse? There is a difference in that I am in charge, and I promise, my T will tell me when I'm not. We monitor this very carefully.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 12:03:47
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » antigua3, posted by Dinah on October 26, 2007, at 9:46:01
You're right. People usually don't change, and while I tease about training him, I know he is who he is and it's up to me to decide how much is worth it. Right now standing up for myself is really important, and that phase may past and I'll ditch him, but without the anguish that other authority figures in my past have generated. That will be an outstanding achievement for me.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on October 26, 2007, at 13:15:39
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 12:03:47
You're right, it will. :) Changing our reactions is certainly not only possible but helpful as well.
It sounds as if you're aware of the issues involved, and you and your therapist are keeping a close eye on it. If you're finding it helpful, that's what therapy is about.
Posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 1:14:56
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » RealMe, posted by antigua3 on October 26, 2007, at 12:00:38
antigua3, please be careful about keeping someone for a challenge or any other reason if they aren't qualified to do the work you need. I kept my last pdoc/therapist, and it was a very big mistake.
I went to see my last pdoc/therapist when I started to get depressed over all the physical things going wrong with me at the time. His specialty area was/is consultation-liason psychiatry, meaning he works with people with chronic physical problems and/or health issues that are terminal and with persons in these categories who also have a serious mental illness like depresson or schizophrenia or bipolar, etc. So, he was fine for that. There is no way he should have tried to work with me on the abuse issues. He would get angry with me when I got angry with him, and it got to the point that he thought I should find someone else, and I should have. But no; I was going to make it work. Bull. I ended up stuffing my anger and getting more depressed, and as I have said before, I did the damn ECT for him as a gift. How sick is that. When I was aware of the brain damage and complained, he got angry with me again, and then I knew I had to get the hell out of there and now have a kind, caring male therapist who can help me with my abuse and male issues in a way that I need. NO one needs an A-hole
I agree with twinleaf. And, from what you describe, I can see why he would be a challenge to you. He sounds a lot like your father in his demeanor. Sh*t. Please be careful. I would not wish what happened to me with my last pdoc/therapist. I lost two years plus a good deal of short term memory.
RealMe
Posted by antigua3 on October 27, 2007, at 7:27:21
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » antigua3, posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 1:14:56
Thank you for your concern. You and others have outlined some very specific issues for me to think about and work on.
So, at our next appt., I am going to ask the following questions:
1. What are your goals for our treatment together?
2. What is your treatment plan for accomplishing these goals?
3. If you don't believe in going over the past, how are you going to help me get over my father issues, mainly confront the anger and let it go?
4. Based on his answers, I will ask him if he thinks I should see someone else. (I, of course, will make that decision regardless of what he says.) I will release him from his promise that he wouldn't abandon me abruptly if that would be in my best interests.
5. This one is complicated. I stay with him because many of my feelings for my father have been transferred onto him. Not all of them--the anger is the most important one because I've never dealt with it effectively--but I have not transfered the love, idealization or any of the sexual issues. We started discussing this, but ran out of time, but what I want to know is if he can effectively deal with me despite these angry feelings I have for him; or should I find someone who is more loving, caring, etc. Do you understand? Can I do the therapy with someone who brings out the worst? Can we surmount that obstacle? To me, that IS the therapy. He asked me what the ideal pdoc would be for me, and I said there is no such thing as ideal for me. I don't believe in them, because you (meaning me) only get hurt. Been there, done that. I have no desire to get wrapped up in a messy set of emotional issues with him. I don't need that from him, and I don't want it. Also, while it may sound stupid, I know loving and caring are important parts of the process, but I do have all of that and more with my T. She is my rock, and hopefully she & I will be actually be the ones to work through the deepest father issues. So far, we haven't been able to because I can't put her in that role, and believe me we've tried. So using the pdoc is helping us to get unstuck.
All that said, I would never do anything that I thought went against my better judgment or mental health. I am stronger now, plus my T would never let me.
I know so many of you don't agree with me, and I understand and accept that. You may be right, but there is too much unfinished business to stop with my pdoc right now without answers to these questions. If I feel he is too unyielding, I will stop. And although I post a lot of negative things about our relationship, some parts of it are strong and very helpful.
antigua
Posted by sunnydays on October 27, 2007, at 9:29:30
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » RealMe, posted by antigua3 on October 27, 2007, at 7:27:21
Those questions sound great! It sounds like you have really given a lot of thought to this. I think it could be a good thing, especially since your T is very supportive and is watching out for you.
Good luck,
sunnydays
Posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 10:30:32
In reply to Re: Pdoc/Real Me asked why I wouldn't shake hands » RealMe, posted by antigua3 on October 27, 2007, at 7:27:21
Fair enough. I am glad you T is helping you with this. In the end, probably you will be able to transfer some of your feelings for your father onto your therapist too. I was rather shocked when my T said I was transfering some of my stuff re my mother onto him. Anyway, good luck, and I will look forward to seeing how it goes. I am glad you have a T who is there for you and with you.
RealMe
This is the end of the thread.
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